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Main
Date: 07 Sep 2006 19:07:51
From: anthony
Subject: Why the need for PID?
|
My little ECM Botticelli has what seems a very accurate temp gauge on
front, and I find that by just a little bit of temp surfing after
steaming, I can get it back to a perfect brew temperature in just a
minute or so -- just in case anyone needs a second cup.
I leave my unit on all day, and yet it seems to get right on the button
for correct brew temp (judging by the sweetness of taste as much as by
the temp gauge) just as soon as I push through some water to heat the
cups.
I'm presuming this essential temp stability is true of the Silvia too
(a real change after using my Pavoni Pro!) so I'm wondering why all the
fuss about PIDding? Would I find any advantage -- in fact, has anyone
PIDded a Botticelli?
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 08:58:52
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
No Ian, shooting someone is not a crime -- in Texas -- if they
forge/mimic your ac ID and posting 'hooks'.
Dave
111
Ian Smith wrote:
>
> Also, is threatening physical assault not a criminal offence in your
> jurisdiction? It is in most civilised places (where, incidently,
> having a similar name to someone else is NOT an offence!)
>
> regards, Ian SMith
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:51:31
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
rg rising to the bait from harmon.
dave
Randy G. wrote:
> "Robert Hermon" <.> wrote:
>
> >Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
> >gimicky.
> >
> >A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to ride,
> >the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
> >
> If you are trolling it would be best not to do so with this subject.
> There has already been too much in the way of incorrect information on
> this to add to it for humor's sake.
>
> But... You would have been exactly right- IF you had stated that 180
> degrees about!
>
> A PID is an excellent tool if you have the other brewing parameters
> under control. That is why it is often recommended that the new owner
> of a machine gets accustomed to it and establishes a set of operating
> parameters that produces a good level of consistency. Once that is
> done, the value of the PID can be realized to its fullest.
>
> A PID is an excellent tool that allows precise temperature ADJUSTMENT
> and control. Every report here that I can remember stated that a
> change of one or two degrees in the PID adjustment can be tasted in
> the cup. With the button thermostats that cannot be achieved even with
> the most careful temp or time surfing. The EXTREMELY wide swing of
> temperature in a single boiler machine with button thermostats can
> NEVER approach the consistency that the same machine PID'd can.
>
> A swing of 15-25 degrees in boiler temperature with a button
> thermostat is common and totally unacceptable when attempting to
> control variables. The PID gives stability, but more than that- it
> supplies the user the ability to adjust to roast level, blend, age of
> the beans, and even for personal taste!
>
> Espresso has the following broad parameters:
>
> Beans - buy good ones
> Roast - properly roasted and fresh
> Water Quality - tastes good with proper hardness etc.
> Water pressure/volume - check and adjust when necessary
> Grind - the one variable (we hope)
> Dose - use the same volume all the time
> Tamp - a website in itself ;-)
> Brew Time - controlled by many of the above
> water temperature - PID
>
>
> Randy "three years with- three years without- would do without!" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:49:01
From: daveb
Subject: Re: harmon stirs the pot.
|
Robert Hermon wrote:
> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
> gimicky.
>
> A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to ride,
> the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
>
Oh lordy! what an ahole! anything to stir the shit, kinda like me!
Yup, tight temp control = a bad thing.
Can you come up with something newer, harmon?
dave
877 286 2833
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:21:34
From: gscace
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
Hi there:
Because you are satisfied with the product you are producing doesn't
mean that it can't be improved upon. If you are using very good,
freashly roasted coffee, and you are preparing it with good equipment
and technique, then the difference between PID'd machinery and
non-PId'd machinery will not be too much, although your equipment may
become easier to use. For example my PID'd LM Linea is a lot easier to
tune to a specific coffee than a stock Linea because I can just change
the temperature setpoint via keypad, rather than adjust some device
with no readout. On the other hand, if you are producing your brew on
something that has large temperature variations, then the improvement
will be quite significant.
WRT the ability to taste differences of 1 degree - I think you prolly
can taste the difference in 1 degree F changes in brew temperature If
two shots are brewed at different temperatures, with other brew
parameters well controlled, and than tasted sequentially. If the
temperatures are close to the optimum temperature for the coffee, then
you will notice differences in flavor between them, with both shots
being quite drinkable. It's not that a change of 1 degree makes one
shot a sink shot and the other worthy of establishing a religion. The
small steps allow you to optimize the flavor for your palate, and also
improves your consistency. Depending on your level of finicky-ness,
shots brewed a few degrees on either side of optimum may be quite
drinkable. I drink most shots that I brew unless I really screw up my
grind settings. But I've become quite sensitive to brew temperature
since my equipment is very stable. I drink the shots I mess up becasue
they are drinkable, although not optimum. I certainly prefer the ones
that are closer to my idea of what constitutes perfection, and I strive
to approach perfection as much as I can reasonably do, because the
coffee tastes better to me when I do so.
-Greg
CrackAddict wrote:
> WOW! One degree F?
>
> I have wondered for many years why I am satisfied with my PID-less
> espressos, and I think this proves that some of you just have more
> sensitive taste buds than others (including me).
>
> It's like when I sometimes taste what is considered a great wine and
> don't agree - I must be lacking some sensitivity that others have.
> OTOH, it could be that I taste things that others don't... I certainly
> have been served enough bad espressos to know that I do have some
> taste.
>
> So, ignoring the obvious need of some people to just fiddle anything to
> death (usually men with beards) and of course the emperor's-new-clothes
> scenario (Of course the racing stripe on the side makes it taste
> better!) what may very well be true is that some people have taste buds
> that are so sensitive to some of coffee's legion of flavour elements
> (and perhaps so insensitive to others) and that the sensitivity is so
> far outside the "norm" of say 80% of the population, they must jump
> through hoops to get what they taste as "good" espresso. The rest of us
> are just plain lucky.
>
> Think of colour blindness, which is not an either-or thing - it varies
> in severity and also in which colours are problematic. No doubt taste
> can vary in a similar way.
>
> And then there is rap music and opera. Taste is a funny thing, and very
> personal.
>
>
> Craig Andrews wrote:
> > I can taste a
> > difference in the espresso with a 1=B0F temp difference.
> >
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 00:52:33
From: CrackAddict
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
WOW! One degree F?
I have wondered for many years why I am satisfied with my PID-less
espressos, and I think this proves that some of you just have more
sensitive taste buds than others (including me).
It's like when I sometimes taste what is considered a great wine and
don't agree - I must be lacking some sensitivity that others have.
OTOH, it could be that I taste things that others don't... I certainly
have been served enough bad espressos to know that I do have some
taste.
So, ignoring the obvious need of some people to just fiddle anything to
death (usually men with beards) and of course the emperor's-new-clothes
scenario (Of course the racing stripe on the side makes it taste
better!) what may very well be true is that some people have taste buds
that are so sensitive to some of coffee's legion of flavour elements
(and perhaps so insensitive to others) and that the sensitivity is so
far outside the "norm" of say 80% of the population, they must jump
through hoops to get what they taste as "good" espresso. The rest of us
are just plain lucky.
Think of colour blindness, which is not an either-or thing - it varies
in severity and also in which colours are problematic. No doubt taste
can vary in a similar way.
And then there is rap music and opera. Taste is a funny thing, and very
personal.
Craig Andrews wrote:
> I can taste a
> difference in the espresso with a 1=B0F temp difference.
>
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 00:50:50
From: anthony
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
So from what Randy wrote, I might find it desirable down the track to
go PIDding with my botticelli ....
Which leads me to ask .. would that be the same process as PIDding a
Silvia? Anyone tried it with a Botticelli?
Answers from Robert Harmon and Herman and Herman's Hermits for that
matter happily received.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 22:31:26
From: Robert Hermon
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
gimicky.
A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to ride,
the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
"anthony" <anthonyjhcnospam@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:1157681271.183690.154770@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> My little ECM Botticelli has what seems a very accurate temp gauge on
> front, and I find that by just a little bit of temp surfing after
> steaming, I can get it back to a perfect brew temperature in just a
> minute or so -- just in case anyone needs a second cup.
>
> I leave my unit on all day, and yet it seems to get right on the button
> for correct brew temp (judging by the sweetness of taste as much as by
> the temp gauge) just as soon as I push through some water to heat the
> cups.
>
> I'm presuming this essential temp stability is true of the Silvia too
> (a real change after using my Pavoni Pro!) so I'm wondering why all the
> fuss about PIDding? Would I find any advantage -- in fact, has anyone
> PIDded a Botticelli?
>
|
| | |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 01:53:41
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
In <edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com >, on Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:31:26 -0400,
Coffee Snob, FWIW, Starbuck Barista, Trollmaster, Robert Hermon, and
a bunch of other puckish boys floating around one brain wrote:
> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
> gimicky.
>
> A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to ride,
> the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
Extra identities are also like extra wheels.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 21:50:01
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
"Robert Hermon" <. > wrote:
>Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
>gimicky.
>
>A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to ride,
>the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
>
If you are trolling it would be best not to do so with this subject.
There has already been too much in the way of incorrect information on
this to add to it for humor's sake.
But... You would have been exactly right- IF you had stated that 180
degrees about!
A PID is an excellent tool if you have the other brewing parameters
under control. That is why it is often recommended that the new owner
of a machine gets accustomed to it and establishes a set of operating
parameters that produces a good level of consistency. Once that is
done, the value of the PID can be realized to its fullest.
A PID is an excellent tool that allows precise temperature ADJUSTMENT
and control. Every report here that I can remember stated that a
change of one or two degrees in the PID adjustment can be tasted in
the cup. With the button thermostats that cannot be achieved even with
the most careful temp or time surfing. The EXTREMELY wide swing of
temperature in a single boiler machine with button thermostats can
NEVER approach the consistency that the same machine PID'd can.
A swing of 15-25 degrees in boiler temperature with a button
thermostat is common and totally unacceptable when attempting to
control variables. The PID gives stability, but more than that- it
supplies the user the ability to adjust to roast level, blend, age of
the beans, and even for personal taste!
Espresso has the following broad parameters:
Beans - buy good ones
Roast - properly roasted and fresh
Water Quality - tastes good with proper hardness etc.
Water pressure/volume - check and adjust when necessary
Grind - the one variable (we hope)
Dose - use the same volume all the time
Tamp - a website in itself ;-)
Brew Time - controlled by many of the above
water temperature - PID
Randy "three years with- three years without- would do without!" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 21:08:14
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
"Robert Hermon" <. > wrote in message news:edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com...
> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
> gimicky.
>
Like a few others here I had (occasionally) questioned the basis for some of
your comments. Now that I have a better handle on the expertise you bring
to this forum, I can lay those questions to rest.
|
| | | |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 03:23:15
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
I can't believe you were gullible enough to fall for this jerks tricks! I
guess the only exercise you've been getting lately is running off at the
mouth and jumping to conclusions?
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4mc58lF5jb2dU1@individual.net...
> "Robert Hermon" <.> wrote in message news:edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
>> gimicky.
>>
>
> Like a few others here I had (occasionally) questioned the basis for some
> of your comments. Now that I have a better handle on the expertise you
> bring to this forum, I can lay those questions to rest.
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 08:04:19
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> I can't believe you were gullible enough to fall for this jerks tricks! I
> guess the only exercise you've been getting lately is running off at the
> mouth and jumping to conclusions?
That's might rich coming from someone that's been threatening
specific physical abuse on someone else purely because they've got a
similar name to you.
By the way, this Robert Hermon (different name, different email
address, different post formatting to you) that you're so sure is
impersonating you - was he impersonating you when he posted to
alt.online-service.comcast over a month ago?
Or are you just possibly jumping to a teansy-weensy conclusion
yourself?
Also, is threatening physical assault not a criminal offence in your
jurisdiction? It is in most civilised places (where, incidently,
having a similar name to someone else is NOT an offence!)
regards, Ian SMith
--
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Sep 2006 21:33:16
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
To Robert, the real one:
I would never condone the faking of someone's identity here, and yes I was
fooled and the person who posted this forgery is reprehensible.
At the same time, I did not find the post to be that far off the k from
some of your posts that I have read, so perhaps you have become a little too
easy to parody?
ken
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:Dm5Mg.8558$bM.116@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I can't believe you were gullible enough to fall for this jerks tricks! I
>guess the only exercise you've been getting lately is running off at the
>mouth and jumping to conclusions?
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4mc58lF5jb2dU1@individual.net...
>> "Robert Hermon" <.> wrote in message news:edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com...
>>> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
>>> gimicky.
>>>
>>
>> Like a few others here I had (occasionally) questioned the basis for some
>> of your comments. Now that I have a better handle on the expertise you
>> bring to this forum, I can lay those questions to rest.
>>
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Sep 2006 21:41:57
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
And there is yet another possibility. I must admit that if someone has been
faking your posts for a while then this would not apply.
It just might be that there is someone whose name is very similar to yours,
who has started posting here. If so, you see his posts as intentionally
misleading, when in fact the person might just be someone else with a
similar name.
There have been other "Ken's," even another "Ken F" who have occasionally
posted here. They were benign individuals and the stuff they posted on was
not similar to the stuff that I posted on so there was little to get
confused about.
ken
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 06:59:01
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
On Thu, 7 Sep 2006, Ken Fox < > wrote:
> And there is yet another possibility. I must admit that if someone
> has been faking your posts for a while then this would not apply.
>
> It just might be that there is someone whose name is very similar
> to yours, who has started posting here.
That looks much more likely.
Let's see:
Is it the same name - no.
Is it a remotely similar email address - no.
Does it have a remotely similar sig - no.
Is their any evidence of trying to make it look like the same
formatting - no.
Does it look likely that Robert Harmon is so madly egotistical he
considers anyone with a remotely similar name is impersonating him and
consequently considers himself justified in threatening violent
assault - yes.
So, is it all 'Robert's that are impersonating him? Or just anyone
called Robert Hermon, Harmon, Hermen, Hermen, etc ad infinitum?
regards, Ian SMith
--
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| | |
Date: 07 Sep 2006 23:05:50
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
"Robert Hermon" <. > wrote in message
news:edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com...
> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
> gimicky.
>
> A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to
> ride, the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
>
Hardly Robert!
The Silvia has a hysteresis/deadband of around 40°F. I've had my Miss
Silvia for 5 years 4 months. I sort of got tired of temp surfing to find
the sweet spot for each shot & homroasted espresso blends. I can taste a
difference in the espresso with a 1°F temp difference.
My espresso has never been better!, being able to custom tune the temp
during the brew extraction & having super tight control over the
process.
Craig.
|
| | | |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 03:23:03
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
I can't believe you were gullible enough to fall for this jerks tricks! I
guess the only exercise you've been getting lately is running off at the
mouth and jumping to conclusions?
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:4mc508F5f5cnU1@individual.net...
>
> "Robert Hermon" <.> wrote in message news:edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com...
>> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it as
>> gimicky.
>>
>> A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to
>> ride, the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
>>
>
> Hardly Robert!
> The Silvia has a hysteresis/deadband of around 40°F. I've had my Miss
> Silvia for 5 years 4 months. I sort of got tired of temp surfing to find
> the sweet spot for each shot & homroasted espresso blends. I can taste a
> difference in the espresso with a 1°F temp difference.
>
> My espresso has never been better!, being able to custom tune the temp
> during the brew extraction & having super tight control over the process.
> Craig.
>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 07 Sep 2006 23:33:14
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Why the need for PID?
|
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:rm5Mg.8557$bM.5881@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>I can't believe you were gullible enough to fall for this jerks tricks!
>I guess the only exercise you've been getting lately is running off at
>the mouth and jumping to conclusions?
> --
Excuse me?? I just noticed the one letter difference in the names now
Rob!! I saw your post about some asshole impersonating you. It's late &
I'm tired, (only had 4 hrs sleep last night)., I missed the connection
in the names..
Quote: "I guess the only exercise you've been getting lately is running
off at the mouth and jumping to conclusions?"
WTF??? You're referring to me?? That's one thing I don't do here, & I've
been here for 6 years!!
Craig.
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:4mc508F5f5cnU1@individual.net...
>>
>> "Robert Hermon" <.> wrote in message
>> news:edqkl51bfn@news3.newsguy.com...
>>> Pidding is for newbs, us pros (I'm an ex Starkucks barista) see it
>>> as gimicky.
>>>
>>> A pid is like a set of training wheels on a bike, after you learn to
>>> ride, the extra wheels just get in the way and slow you down.
>>>
>>
>> Hardly Robert!
>> The Silvia has a hysteresis/deadband of around 40°F. I've had my Miss
>> Silvia for 5 years 4 months. I sort of got tired of temp surfing to
>> find the sweet spot for each shot & homroasted espresso blends. I can
>> taste a difference in the espresso with a 1°F temp difference.
>>
>> My espresso has never been better!, being able to custom tune the
>> temp during the brew extraction & having super tight control over the
>> process.
>> Craig.
>>
>>
>
>
|
|
