Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

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Date: 18 Sep 2006 16:52:09
From: Coty189
Subject: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Hello,
My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
Michigan. I am currently working on designing and building a new type
of coffee machine with a group of my fellow students. The goal of the
project is to create a machine that will allow the user to get the
freshest possible cup of coffee. The user will load the machine with
green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
coffee for the user. A preliminary prototype has already been built
and works (crudley). Our task is to improve the design and
functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
from the roasting process.

In an attempt to assure that our machine can satisfy the needs of
the customer (you), I am asking for your input. From what I can tell
from your postings this group is full of people with valuable input.
Please tell me your likes or dislikes about the Roasting, Grinding, and
Brewing products that you use or have used in the past. Tell me what
features you like or dislike about these products. If you think this
project is a bad idea, thats fine, tell me why. This is your chance to
put in your two cents and help us create a product that is designed
with your needs in mind.

Date: 01 Oct 2006 14:09:27
From: Coty189
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

karlseidel wrote:
> The user will load the machine with
> > green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
> > coffee for the user.
>
> I've got one of those - bought it about 8-10 years ago:
> http://www.freshroastdaily.com/images/Unimax_Rstr_Grndr_Brwr.jpg
>
> It works fine if you don't have the time or interest in resting and
> degassing your roasted beans. It has a blade grinder and uses a quartz
> lightbulb to roast the beans.
>

Any idea where I can get one? I found an older model on ebay, but I
would prefer to have the model shown in the picture you posted.

Date: 26 Sep 2006 07:02:33
From: karlseidel
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

When you say "coffee-loving world" that is a broad generalization. Most
of the world REALLY drinks spray-dried instant coffee - and they
probably love it - or think that they do.

anthony wrote:
> shall wrote:
>
> > >I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
> > >espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
> > >totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!
> >
> > Why would you assume that? He never once mentioned espresso. I would
> > assume the opposite is true. Most of the coffee-drinking world would
> > take issue with the idea that non-espresso coffee isn't worth brewing.
> >
> > shall
>
> Different world than I know, shall .... as long as we leave the
> dreaded instant coffee out of the equation, then right through England,
> France, Italy and most of the rest of Europe, not to mention Australia,
> New Zealand etc, espresso is the go.
> Except that the French and others do like a Moka-style coffee in the
> mornings rather than espresso.
> As far as I know, the only real exception to this is America, with its
> own v. horrible watery brew stuff. But that should be dismissed as
> quickly as we dismiss instant......
> But of course all this is my opinion .. but it's pretty true that in
> most of the coffee-loving world, ESPRESSO RULES!

Date: 26 Sep 2006 06:48:25
From: karlseidel
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

The user will load the machine with
> green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
> coffee for the user.

I've got one of those - bought it about 8-10 years ago:
http://www.freshroastdaily.com/images/Unimax_Rstr_Grndr_Brwr.jpg

It works fine if you don't have the time or interest in resting and
degassing your roasted beans. It has a blade grinder and uses a quartz
lightbulb to roast the beans.

Coty189 wrote:
> Hello,
> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
> Michigan. I am currently working on designing and building a new type
> of coffee machine with a group of my fellow students. The goal of the
> project is to create a machine that will allow the user to get the
> freshest possible cup of coffee. The user will load the machine with
> green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
> coffee for the user. A preliminary prototype has already been built
> and works (crudley). Our task is to improve the design and
> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
> from the roasting process.
>
> In an attempt to assure that our machine can satisfy the needs of
> the customer (you), I am asking for your input. From what I can tell
> from your postings this group is full of people with valuable input.
> Please tell me your likes or dislikes about the Roasting, Grinding, and
> Brewing products that you use or have used in the past. Tell me what
> features you like or dislike about these products. If you think this
> project is a bad idea, thats fine, tell me why. This is your chance to
> put in your two cents and help us create a product that is designed
> with your needs in mind.

Date: 24 Sep 2006 20:51:59
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Jack Denver wrote:
. If I can
> order good quality green by the lb. over the internet for $3 or $4 lb., why
> would I pay $8 a lb. locally?

I agree, and there are other reasons as well. As a home roaster, I'm
not just interested in "good quality," and I'm willing to pay my
average of $5-6/lb incl. shipping for a near-guarantee of great
quality. I want a wide variety of choices; I want to read
knowledgeable reviews (or at least descriptions from people whom I
trust more than myself--such as Tom at SM or Schulman); and I want the
ease of quick, conversation-free transactions that don't require
parking and standing in line. If I had a quality roaster no more than
a few minutes off my beaten paths, I'd consider some cautious testing
of her wares. Otherwise, who needs 'em?

tin

Date: 24 Sep 2006 20:29:00
From: Don C.
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

One factor that could very likely come into play in the proprietor's
reasoning is the cannabalistic effect of losing roasted bean sales to
those customers who become new home roasters.

If I owned and ran a boutique roastery I would not want my customers
learning how to roast their own. I certainly would not want to
encourage their defection by offering a cheaper alternative to my own
bread and butter business.

Jack Denver wrote:
> "Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote in message
> news:DaCdndTc0sodCovYnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> >> I think there is a willfull kind of blindness because admitting that
> >> coffee can be roasted at home negates their position as "professionals".
> >
> > Perhaps, but not entirely the only reason. I can think of three more.
> > First, they buy in large quantities and get a good price break because of
> > that. Adding 100%+ kup is common practice in retail settings.
>
> Yes, I'd be okay with 100% kup - it's 400% that I object to. If I can
> order good quality green by the lb. over the internet for $3 or $4 lb., why
> would I pay $8 a lb. locally? The people I'm referring to take off $1/lb.
> from their retail, which doesn't even cover the weight loss from roasting.
> What about the energy costs they save, the labor costs, the capital costs on
> the roaster, the waste and spoilage of roasted coffee, etc.? If you just
> subtracted out all these costs you'd have to discount way more than $1/lb..,
> but really working backward from the roasted price is an ass-backward way of
> doing it. The really st way is to adopt a ginal cost model - you have
> the store already, the help, the scales, etc. So what is your GINAL
> (additional) cost for selling 1 lb. of green, aside from the raw material
> cost? Not much, really (the cost of the bag), so if you price the coffee
> agressively (e.g. lower than the internet sellers) and do a good volume in
> it, at the end of the month you'll have more money in the bank than you did
> before. But if you price the coffee high enough to maintain your imaginary
> "kup" you'll have nothing, because customers don't give a damn about your
> kup, only about what the ket price is. If your "kup" puts the price
> above the ket, you'll sell next to nothing. Which is better, 100% of some
> sizable number or 400% of virtually nothing?
>
> Second, It is a hassle
> > since they are not set up to sell green coffee.
>
> The places I'm talking about are pretty small - I see the green coffee in
> bags right there in front of the roaster, with the scales a few steps away.
> How hard is it to reach down into the bags to get some green vs. scooping
> roasted coffee from the roast bins?
>
>
> I would charge more just to
> > discourage the interuption, too.
>
> What disruption?
>
>
>
>
> Lastly, it isn't the business they chose to own
> > and operate.
>
> My dad was an old fashioned kind of guy - the business he was in was called
> "making money". Although the main product of our farm was eggs, he'd sell
> anything and everything we owned - the chickens, the vegetables from the
> garden, the trees from the woods, the hay from the fields, even, and I'm not
> kidding, the manure from the chickens - it was all for sale at the right
> price. Defining your business too narrowly is not a good idea for a small
> businessman - maybe if you're DeBeers selling diamonds you can afford to
> (though don't the Oppenheimers own gold mines too?), but most businesses
> can't get by selling one product only - even McDonalds will ask you if you
> want fries with that hamburger. One of the sure ways to go broke is to have
> too high falutin and pure idea of "the business you choose to operate".
> >
> >

Date: 22 Sep 2006 19:33:03
From:
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Coty189 wrote:
> The user will load the machine with
> green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
> coffee for the user. A preliminary prototype has already been built
> and works (crudley). Our task is to improve the design and
> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
> from the roasting process........

Air roaster I would guess? Watch your heat and the moisture. Coffee
green or roasted should not be subjected to moisture or extreme heat.
The other problem area will be the grinder with moisture, (clogging)
and oils from the coffee beans heated when the machine roasts make for
some unpleasent tasting coffee. But hay good luck. Alot of people
now have home "espresso vending machines", just push a button and it
grinds-tamps-extracts-and dumps the grounds for the next button push.
>
>

Date: 21 Sep 2006 08:58:01
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
> Michigan.

Oh, One more thing. Have anyone on your group roasted coffee? You might want
to order some green beans from Sweetias.com and then goto Homeroasters.org
and find out how to modify a hot air popcorn popper to roast coffee. I know you
can find poppers at any campus!

Dan

PS: Friends of mine stopped by last weekend after having visited family that had
just moved to Grand Rapids.

Date: 21 Sep 2006 13:41:51
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Oh gawd - I hope they have. If not they'd better start real soon. I'd hate
to buy a car designed by someone who has never ridden in a car or a stove
designed by someone who has never cooked. I suppose you can design a device
purely "by the numbers" but if you have no idea what you are shooting for in
terms of unquantifiables like taste, chances are you are going to miss the
k.

"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:V5CdnZnX5-jEEY_YnZ2dnUVZ_sKdnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
>> engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
>> Michigan.
>
> Oh, One more thing. Have anyone on your group roasted coffee? You might
> want to order some green beans from Sweetias.com and then goto
> Homeroasters.org and find out how to modify a hot air popcorn popper to
> roast coffee. I know you can find poppers at any campus!
>
> Dan
>
> PS: Friends of mine stopped by last weekend after having visited family
> that had just moved to Grand Rapids.
>
>

Date: 21 Sep 2006 08:53:32
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
> Michigan. I am currently working on designing and building a new type
> of coffee machine with a group of my fellow students. The goal of the
> project is to create a machine that will allow the user to get the
> freshest possible cup of coffee. The user will load the machine with
> green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
> coffee for the user. A preliminary prototype has already been built
> and works (crudley). Our task is to improve the design and
> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
> from the roasting process.
>
> In an attempt to assure that our machine can satisfy the needs of
> the customer (you), I am asking for your input. From what I can tell
> from your postings this group is full of people with valuable input.
> Please tell me your likes or dislikes about the Roasting, Grinding, and
> Brewing products that you use or have used in the past. Tell me what
> features you like or dislike about these products. If you think this
> project is a bad idea, thats fine, tell me why. This is your chance to
> put in your two cents and help us create a product that is designed
> with your needs in mind.

Coty, As you've probably discovered, this is not your typical bbs.

I note that some of my fellow alties don't answer your questions, but then
neither did I! I do note that, instead of helping you design the result, they
want to redesign the problem statement. You and I both know that is not likely
to happen. I know, I used to teach design and have handed down many a design
project to students.

This isn't all bad. Let me frame it. You are wanting consumer reactions and
feedback about a consumer product. Here at alt.coffee there are no consumers,
but prosumers and professionals. Many of us roast our own coffee, many in
roasters we've built from scratch. I think it is safe to say that none of us
here perk or drip store bought preroasted proground coffee. You see, "a product
designed with your needs in mind" for us alties would not be anything like what
you are working on.

I think the greatest hurdle you will have is getting your product to sell. The
reason being that 99% of coffee drinkers have never seen a green coffee bean,
nor have any idea what coffee roasting is about. As such, your product will be
more of a oddity. Few regular coffee drinkers will want it, and few of us
prosumers will want it. But then, making it ketable may not be part of your
design statement.

Having said all that. You might take advantage of this group for its technical
expertise. There are people here who have built their own roasters, repaired
grinders, and modified espresso machines. Some have created computerized
controllers for roasting. And that's just the amateurs!

Dan

Date: 24 Sep 2006 00:46:27
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:53:32 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>I think the greatest hurdle you will have is getting your product to sell. The
>reason being that 99% of coffee drinkers have never seen a green coffee bean,

one of the things which has hamstrung the home-roaster biz from the
start is the inability to conveniently secure green beans in the mass
ket. it is a couple orders of magnitude easier now than ten years
ago, but still no where near what it needs to be for home roasting to
be anything but a niche ket.

Date: 23 Sep 2006 23:12:27
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

What amazes me is that local roasters don't make it easier - to me it would
be a no-brainer to be able to add another revenue source without having to
carry another inventory. But the ones around here (not that there are many)
seem to make it as discouraging as possible , charging nearly the same price
as roasted coffee , not publicizing the availability of green, etc. - they
take off a nominal $1/lb. or something for green, so I'm sure they sell very
little, which must lead them to conclude that it's not a ket worth
bothering with in the first place. I think there is a willfull kind of
blindness because admitting that coffee can be roasted at home negates their
position as "professionals".

"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:81lbh2hb3f0d34mubmu77jsjjofa4ik1kq@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:53:32 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
> <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote:
>
> >I think the greatest hurdle you will have is getting your product to
> >sell. The
> >reason being that 99% of coffee drinkers have never seen a green coffee
> >bean,
>
> one of the things which has hamstrung the home-roaster biz from the
> start is the inability to conveniently secure green beans in the mass
> ket. it is a couple orders of magnitude easier now than ten years
> ago, but still no where near what it needs to be for home roasting to
> be anything but a niche ket.
>

Date: 24 Sep 2006 10:34:40
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

> I think there is a willfull kind of blindness because admitting that coffee
> can be roasted at home negates their position as "professionals".

Perhaps, but not entirely the only reason. I can think of three more. First,
they buy in large quantities and get a good price break because of that. Adding
100%+ kup is common practice in retail settings. Second, It is a hassle
since they are not set up to sell green coffee. I would charge more just to
discourage the interuption, too. Lastly, it isn't the business they chose to own
and operate.

Date: 24 Sep 2006 20:31:26
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:DaCdndTc0sodCovYnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>> I think there is a willfull kind of blindness because admitting that
>> coffee can be roasted at home negates their position as "professionals".
>
> Perhaps, but not entirely the only reason. I can think of three more.
> First, they buy in large quantities and get a good price break because of
> that. Adding 100%+ kup is common practice in retail settings.

Yes, I'd be okay with 100% kup - it's 400% that I object to. If I can
order good quality green by the lb. over the internet for $3 or $4 lb., why
would I pay $8 a lb. locally? The people I'm referring to take off $1/lb.
from their retail, which doesn't even cover the weight loss from roasting.
What about the energy costs they save, the labor costs, the capital costs on
the roaster, the waste and spoilage of roasted coffee, etc.? If you just
subtracted out all these costs you'd have to discount way more than $1/lb..,
but really working backward from the roasted price is an ass-backward way of
doing it. The really st way is to adopt a ginal cost model - you have
the store already, the help, the scales, etc. So what is your GINAL
(additional) cost for selling 1 lb. of green, aside from the raw material
cost? Not much, really (the cost of the bag), so if you price the coffee
agressively (e.g. lower than the internet sellers) and do a good volume in
it, at the end of the month you'll have more money in the bank than you did
before. But if you price the coffee high enough to maintain your imaginary
"kup" you'll have nothing, because customers don't give a damn about your
kup, only about what the ket price is. If your "kup" puts the price
above the ket, you'll sell next to nothing. Which is better, 100% of some
sizable number or 400% of virtually nothing?

Second, It is a hassle
> since they are not set up to sell green coffee.

The places I'm talking about are pretty small - I see the green coffee in
bags right there in front of the roaster, with the scales a few steps away.
How hard is it to reach down into the bags to get some green vs. scooping
roasted coffee from the roast bins?

I would charge more just to
> discourage the interuption, too.

What disruption?

Lastly, it isn't the business they chose to own
> and operate.

My dad was an old fashioned kind of guy - the business he was in was called
"making money". Although the main product of our farm was eggs, he'd sell
anything and everything we owned - the chickens, the vegetables from the
garden, the trees from the woods, the hay from the fields, even, and I'm not
kidding, the manure from the chickens - it was all for sale at the right
price. Defining your business too narrowly is not a good idea for a small
businessman - maybe if you're DeBeers selling diamonds you can afford to
(though don't the Oppenheimers own gold mines too?), but most businesses
can't get by selling one product only - even McDonalds will ask you if you
want fries with that hamburger. One of the sure ways to go broke is to have
too high falutin and pure idea of "the business you choose to operate".
>
>

Date: 24 Sep 2006 22:00:09
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:OJydnd5v2dD9vorYnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> The places I'm talking about are pretty small - I see the green coffee in
> bags right there in front of the roaster, with the scales a few steps
> away. How hard is it to reach down into the bags to get some green vs.
> scooping roasted coffee from the roast bins?

Truth be told, most of these sorts of roasters have no rekable green to
sell, anyway. If one is looking for commodity green beans, they are readily
available at low cost from such players as Caracolillo, some ebay sellers,
and preseumably a whole host of others. If one seeks good to better green
beans, those are also widely available. Even the best beans can be had
green, for a price, and there are willing sellers if you want to buy from
them.

An easy way to get lower prices for green is to buy in larger quantities.
Virtually all the internet sources of green sell much more cheaply in 20#
lots.

If one buys in larger quantities that reduce prices for both the coffee
itself and its shipping, the total cost of a year's worth of green is
trivial for most people roasting in home quanitities. If one insists on
buying small quantities of a large variety of bean types from many sources,
one is going to have to pay for it, and this is exactly the same choice as
buying small portions of any food item at an overpriced grocery store vs.
buying in bulk from Costco or Walt.

I don't have any local bean sources I'm aware of that would be worth hunting
out, even though there are a couple of local roasters. In comparison with
what I pay for so many other food or beverage items, most green coffee is
cheap cheap cheap, and I couldn't care less if some local roaster, that no
one outside of the immediate area has ever heard of, won't sell me green
cheaply.

There's a coop I belong to 160 miles away, that has an excellent wine
selection and very good prices. I guess I could try to shame local
merchants into selling the wine to me at the same prices, but hey, I've got
better things to do with my time and it is simply easier to call the coop on
the phone and go pick up the wine in 2 or 3 months whenever I'm going to go
to or pass through that town on a trip. The amount of money I can save on
the wine is an order of magnitude higher than what I could (maybe) save with
local green beans. So to hell with people who don't want to sell me stuff
at a price I want to pay; I don't need them and they don't need me. That's
a riage (or maybe a divorce!) made in heaven and hence I'll go
elsewhere:-)

ken

Date: 25 Sep 2006 11:21:31
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Generally speaking I agree with you and I vote with my $ - I don't patronize
these places. But it seems to be a shame to me that there is "money left on
the table" - the profits that the merchant could earn if he was not blind to
the opportunity, the added convenience to me of having a local source when I
ran short of some bean and did not feel like making a large mail order.

But more and more I find that it's easier to deal over the internet with
some specialized seller than it is to fight local stupidity. The other day a
part for my food processor broke. I could have made five phone calls and
driven to 3 different shops before I found the right part (if I could find
it at all) or I could do a few mouse clicks and within a couple of days the
correct part would be delivered to my doorstep. Guess which one I chose?

The wine example is a little different - there's no easy way the local
merchant can charge you less than he charges other people (except maybe
quantity discounts). But green coffee is a product that's distinct from
roasted coffee so it's easy to have different pricing.

"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4np2hvFbfcn4U1@individual.net...
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:OJydnd5v2dD9vorYnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@comcast.com...
So to hell with people who don't want to sell me stuff
> at a price I want to pay; I don't need them and they don't need me.
> That's a riage (or maybe a divorce!) made in heaven and hence I'll go
> elsewhere:-)
>
> ken
>
>

Date: 25 Sep 2006 09:47:50
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:NOmdnQhiKcKdaYrYnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Generally speaking I agree with you and I vote with my $ - I don't
> patronize these places. But it seems to be a shame to me that there is
> "money left on the table" - the profits that the merchant could earn if he
> was not blind to the opportunity, the added convenience to me of having a
> local source when I ran short of some bean and did not feel like making a
> large mail order.
>
> But more and more I find that it's easier to deal over the internet with
> some specialized seller than it is to fight local stupidity. The other day
> a part for my food processor broke. I could have made five phone calls and
> driven to 3 different shops before I found the right part (if I could find
> it at all) or I could do a few mouse clicks and within a couple of days
> the correct part would be delivered to my doorstep. Guess which one I
> chose?

And this also gives responsive local merchants fits. We have a very good
kitchen store that does not overprice items especially considering it is
located in a resort area. Nonetheless, if I see something online and the
price is good, I often will buy online to save some money or time, when I
COULD walk 8 minutes in each direction and pick the item up in person,
albeit for maybe a higher price. The same can be said for books, where we
have several bookstores and I COULD call them up and order something when it
is just easier to go to Amazon and let UPS deliver it.

So, even the responsive merchant has to put out extra effort to get business
that used to just walk in the door. As to unresponsive people, like those
small time roasters, it generally isn't worth my time to even bother asking.
When it comes to my green coffee stash, I prefer to have too much rather
than too little down in the basement and if at the end of the year I have
too much left I have a semi-impoverished friend who home roasts locally. If
I end up giving him 10lbs of green coffee that I'm not going to use, at a
cost of maybe $40 to me, I feel like I've done a good deed and he sure
appreciates it. At some point in the future he will reciprocate in some
fashion and generally one gets back as much as one gives away in this life,
all things considered.

ken

Date: 25 Sep 2006 12:49:22
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

If I was a bricks & mortar merchant, I'd be very worried unless I had some
niche that was difficult to fill over the internet due to time or weight
limitations or the need to provide special services - fresh fish, bricks,
etc. No way can a B&M merchant paying mall rents and wages win on price
vs. an online shop that is operating out of a warehouse and most of whose
customers need no human interaction.

I live in a suburban area so there's no walking to shops. If you take into
account automobile costs, travel time, the general aggravation and risk to
your life of driving with all the nutcases on the road, the saving on sales
tax, etc. then paying $6 or so to have an item shipped is worth it much of
the time.

The internet has really revolutionized the ket for used books - formerly
there was no good way to bring buyers and sellers together but now there is.
I get a lot of my kids textbooks for a small fraction of "list" that way.
The publishers have retaliated by bringing out new editions of textbooks
every couple of years, even when there is no pressing need to update. OTOH,
st teachers just keep specifying the previous editions.

For some reason, no matter how much coffee I buy I can't keep enough Brasil
in stock - I guess because it's my usual espresso base. So it would be nice
if I could stop by the local roaster and fill in with 5 or 10 lbs. of some
decent Cerrado, but I guess I should dream on.

"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4nqc0qFbh2ioU1@individual.net...
>
> And this also gives responsive local merchants fits. We have a very good
> kitchen store that does not overprice items especially considering it is
> located in a resort area. Nonetheless, if I see something online and the
> price is good, I often will buy online to save some money or time, when I
> COULD walk 8 minutes in each direction and pick the item up in person,
> albeit for maybe a higher price. The same can be said for books, where we
> have several bookstores and I COULD call them up and order something when
> it is just easier to go to Amazon and let UPS deliver it.
>
> So, even the responsive merchant has to put out extra effort to get
> business that used to just walk in the door. As to unresponsive people,
> like those small time roasters, it generally isn't worth my time to even
> bother asking. When it comes to my green coffee stash, I prefer to have
> too much rather than too little down in the basement and if at the end of
> the year I have too much left I have a semi-impoverished friend who home
> roasts locally. If I end up giving him 10lbs of green coffee that I'm not
> going to use, at a cost of maybe $40 to me, I feel like I've done a good
> deed and he sure appreciates it. At some point in the future he will
> reciprocate in some fashion and generally one gets back as much as one
> gives away in this life, all things considered.
>
> ken
>
>

Date: 25 Sep 2006 15:33:35
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

>
> Second, It is a hassle
>> since they are not set up to sell green coffee.
>
> The places I'm talking about are pretty small - I see the green coffee in
> bags right there in front of the roaster, with the scales a few steps
> away. How hard is it to reach down into the bags to get some green vs.
> scooping roasted coffee from the roast bins?
>

OK from the perspective of someone who is a small roaster - I am reluctant
to part with my green because I purchase enought green to get me to x point
on the calendar by which time my next order will be in. If I start randomnly
selling green, my stock control will rapidly go out the window.

My stock control is bad enough with just me in control, let alone adding the
extra confusion...

At some stage when my stocks are a bit more stable / shipments more regular,
I will possibly add Green as a service, but I wouldn't expect it to be
cheap.

Let's face it, it may be no hassle to scoop a few pounds of green from a
sack, but the cost of that coffee is not just the per pound price - gotta
factor in the rent, cost of financing it, power, delivery, standing there
waiting etc etc etc

I imagine when I do sell green, it will be at least double my cost, hoping
to break even.

Brent

Date: 20 Sep 2006 21:42:40
From: anthony
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

shall wrote:

> >I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
> >espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
> >totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!
>
> Why would you assume that? He never once mentioned espresso. I would
> assume the opposite is true. Most of the coffee-drinking world would
> take issue with the idea that non-espresso coffee isn't worth brewing.
>
> shall

Different world than I know, shall .... as long as we leave the
dreaded instant coffee out of the equation, then right through England,
France, Italy and most of the rest of Europe, not to mention Australia,
New Zealand etc, espresso is the go.
Except that the French and others do like a Moka-style coffee in the
mornings rather than espresso.
As far as I know, the only real exception to this is America, with its
own v. horrible watery brew stuff. But that should be dismissed as
quickly as we dismiss instant......
But of course all this is my opinion .. but it's pretty true that in
most of the coffee-loving world, ESPRESSO RULES!

Date: 21 Sep 2006 17:21:15
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Actually, espresso as a home prep method is probably more popular with
gadget obsessed Americans than elsewhere. In those parts of the world where
"espresso rules" (Italy 1st and foremost) , it rules in the cafe and the
moka pot rules at home. This may be changing as Italian incomes and kitchen
sizes begin to approach American levels, but historically the idea of
bringing a pump espresso machine into your house would have struck most
Italians as being akin to having your own Slurpee machine in an American
kitchen - something that belongs in a commercial establishment, not at home.

"anthony" <anthonyjhcnospam@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:1158813760.191755.93140@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
> shall wrote:
>
>> >I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
>> >espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
>> >totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!
>>
>> Why would you assume that? He never once mentioned espresso. I would
>> assume the opposite is true. Most of the coffee-drinking world would
>> take issue with the idea that non-espresso coffee isn't worth brewing.
>>
>> shall
>
> Different world than I know, shall .... as long as we leave the
> dreaded instant coffee out of the equation, then right through England,
> France, Italy and most of the rest of Europe, not to mention Australia,
> New Zealand etc, espresso is the go.
> Except that the French and others do like a Moka-style coffee in the
> mornings rather than espresso.
> As far as I know, the only real exception to this is America, with its
> own v. horrible watery brew stuff. But that should be dismissed as
> quickly as we dismiss instant......
> But of course all this is my opinion .. but it's pretty true that in
> most of the coffee-loving world, ESPRESSO RULES!
>

Date: 24 Sep 2006 00:39:14
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:21:15 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>Italians as being akin to having your own Slurpee machine in an American
>kitchen - something that belongs in a commercial establishment, not at home.
>

but it is oh-so-wonderful when you have one.... especially in the
summer.

--barry "kitchen's too small; it was on the bar downstairs"

Date: 21 Sep 2006 22:18:23
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 17:21:15 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>akin to having your own Slurpee machine in an American
>kitchen - something that belongs in a commercial establishment, not at home.

In Malibu, CA they are de rigeur, and if you don't have at least three
flavors, you're off the A List!

Date: 21 Sep 2006 06:07:28
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On 20 Sep 2006 21:42:40 -0700, "anthony"
<anthonyjhcnospam@netscape.net > wrote:

>
>shall wrote:
>
>> >I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
>> >espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
>> >totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!
>>
>> Why would you assume that? He never once mentioned espresso. I would
>> assume the opposite is true. Most of the coffee-drinking world would
>> take issue with the idea that non-espresso coffee isn't worth brewing.
>>
>> shall
>
>Different world than I know, shall .... as long as we leave the
>dreaded instant coffee out of the equation, then right through England,
>France, Italy and most of the rest of Europe, not to mention Australia,
>New Zealand etc, espresso is the go.

Really? We're talking about a machine to make coffee at home. You have
any statistics on home espresso vs. drip vs. plunger vs. soluble
(instant) to back this up? Leaving instant out leaves most of the
world out.There isn't a country in the world where espresso is the
most popular method of home coffee brewing. Even the Italians use moka
pots.

>Except that the French and others do like a Moka-style coffee in the
>mornings rather than espresso.

And they do presspot in the evening. As far as my experience goes the
French usually prefer presspot and milk (cafe au lait) for breakfast
at home.

>As far as I know, the only real exception to this is America, with its
>own v. horrible watery brew stuff. But that should be dismissed as
>quickly as we dismiss instant......

>But of course all this is my opinion .. but it's pretty true that in
>most of the coffee-loving world, ESPRESSO RULES!

Actually, the world's champ for home brewing is instant (regrettably,
of course).

shall

Date: 20 Sep 2006 19:11:20
From: razmoo
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

> I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
> espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
> totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!

Yeh, plenty of super autos around (minus the roaster).. if you can make
a super auto that can make a coffee like a REAL barista (minus the
artwork) then you might be onto something.

Date: 21 Sep 2006 08:39:31
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

>> I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
>> espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
>> totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!
>
> Yeh, plenty of super autos around (minus the roaster).. if you can make
> a super auto that can make a coffee like a REAL barista (minus the
> artwork) then you might be onto something.

No. You WILL be onto something. It would be qualitatively superior, hence an
advantage in the ketplace.

Date: 20 Sep 2006 18:15:23
From: anthony
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Coty189 wrote:
> Heat + Beans wrote:
> > Coty189 wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> > > engineering student
> >

Reading the responses so far, it seems clear that a three-in-one
machine (roast, grind, brew) is not worth developing owing to the
time-lag between roasting coffee and letting it air for a day or two to
expel gases before grinding. In a domestic setting inside a kitchen
you're also going to get problems with smoke and chaff ...

And there are so many automatic machines out there that burr-mill
grind, then dispense and then brew, that there doesn't seem to be
anything new coming from your process.

Not unless you can solve the problem of giving roasted coffee the
necessary time-lag before grinding and brewing .. that's going to be
the real challenge if what you design is going to be worthwhile.

I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!

Date: 21 Sep 2006 02:44:51
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On 20 Sep 2006 18:15:23 -0700, "anthony"
<anthonyjhcnospam@netscape.net > wrote:

>
>Coty189 wrote:
>> Heat + Beans wrote:
>> > Coty189 wrote:
>> > > Hello,
>> > > My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
>> > > engineering student
>> >
>
>Reading the responses so far, it seems clear that a three-in-one
>machine (roast, grind, brew) is not worth developing owing to the
>time-lag between roasting coffee and letting it air for a day or two to
>expel gases before grinding.

There is nothing "clear" about that. "Resting" (Barry calls it
"staling") is a matter of personal preference. Most home users would
experience a vast improvement in coffee that was 15 minutes old over
3-month old superket coffee.

> In a domestic setting inside a kitchen
>you're also going to get problems with smoke and chaff ...

Yes. But others have dealt with it (such as the Japanese).

>And there are so many automatic machines out there that burr-mill
>grind, then dispense and then brew,

There may only be two per today's L.A. Times.

> that there doesn't seem to be
>anything new coming from your process.

Have you seen a lot of roaster/brewers around?

>Not unless you can solve the problem of giving roasted coffee the
>necessary time-lag before grinding and brewing .. that's going to be
>the real challenge if what you design is going to be worthwhile.

As noted above, it's a preference, not a necessity.

>I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
>espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
>totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!

Why would you assume that? He never once mentioned espresso. I would
assume the opposite is true. Most of the coffee-drinking world would
take issue with the idea that non-espresso coffee isn't worth brewing.

shall

Date: 20 Sep 2006 22:25:16
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

If such a device actually worked, it would be no big deal to roast a day or
two ahead if you felt that the coffee needed rest. The fella already said
that his mythical device would be designed so that you can divert the flow
at any point.

I find that certain coffees and blends benefit from rest, others are ready
to brew as soon as they cool - people have made too much of the "needs rest"
point - it's not enough to rule out such a machine.

If you are contemplating a drip type machine, you have to take into account
that coffee that has not been de-gassed tends to foam up more than stale
superket coffee and will overflow the machine basket unless you design
ample headroom.

One of my other objections to an "all in one" device is that when part of
the device breaks you end up discarding the whole thing, which is not a very
eco-friendly , PC thing to do. Our hypothetical device should be modular,
so that if the grinder module breaks you can replace just that section
(easily) and each replacement module should not cost nearly as much as a new
machine

Another

"anthony" <anthonyjhcnospam@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:1158801323.915415.198270@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Coty189 wrote:
>> Heat + Beans wrote:
>> > Coty189 wrote:
>> > > Hello,
>> > > My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
>> > > engineering student
>> >
>
> Reading the responses so far, it seems clear that a three-in-one
> machine (roast, grind, brew) is not worth developing owing to the
> time-lag between roasting coffee and letting it air for a day or two to
> expel gases before grinding. In a domestic setting inside a kitchen
> you're also going to get problems with smoke and chaff ...
>
> And there are so many automatic machines out there that burr-mill
> grind, then dispense and then brew, that there doesn't seem to be
> anything new coming from your process.
>
> Not unless you can solve the problem of giving roasted coffee the
> necessary time-lag before grinding and brewing .. that's going to be
> the real challenge if what you design is going to be worthwhile.
>
> I take it of course that you're only talking of developing an
> espresso-style coffee machine -- the effort you're taking will be
> totally wasted if you're just producing non-espresso crap!
>

Date: 20 Sep 2006 12:37:14
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Coty189 wrote:
> Heat + Beans wrote:
> > Coty189 wrote:
> > > Hello,
> > > My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> > > engineering student
> >
> > Coty,
> > Lots of relevant, if challenging, advice here. In return (for the
> > expert knowledge and thoughtful opinions shared), please report on how
> > this information is being received by your team members, yourself,
> > advisors, etc. How does any of this matter to you and others?
> >
> > tin
>
> tin,
> All of the responses will be reviewed by the team. Phrases from the
> responses will be used to create a list of customer needs (both priy
> and latent). This list of needs will be combined with the list of
> needs determined from keting interviews and other sources. Using
> this list of needs we will determine what functions are required to
> satisfy those needs. Similarly we will create specifications to
> satisfy the functions. We will then use this information and QFD
> techniques to build a house of quality for the project. For the rest
> of the project we will refer back to the house of quality when making
> trade-off decisions and to assure that the team stays on track. Also
> the responses we got regarding patent issues have proven to be very
> useful.
>
> coty

OK, just finished doing a bit of reading on two concepts new to me:
"QFD"and "house of quality." Did so with some interest and amusement.
I'll remain agnostic on their actual usefulness, though they do ring of
the sort of hocus pocus that some of us in the "social" sciences are
accused of.

Next questions:
When your team meets, who makes the coffee? What is served? Any
coffee roasters among you? Anyone own a vacuum pot? Have you ordered
any of the high quality roasted coffees recommended by posters on this
site? Have you ground and brewed that coffee with optimal equipment?
If the answer(s) is/are "yes," what difference has that made in the
project? If no, do you think it matters?
tin

Date: 20 Sep 2006 09:57:20
From: Coty189
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Heat + Beans wrote:
> Coty189 wrote:
> > Hello,
> > My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> > engineering student
>
> Coty,
> Lots of relevant, if challenging, advice here. In return (for the
> expert knowledge and thoughtful opinions shared), please report on how
> this information is being received by your team members, yourself,
> advisors, etc. How does any of this matter to you and others?
>
> tin

tin,
All of the responses will be reviewed by the team. Phrases from the
responses will be used to create a list of customer needs (both priy
and latent). This list of needs will be combined with the list of
needs determined from keting interviews and other sources. Using
this list of needs we will determine what functions are required to
satisfy those needs. Similarly we will create specifications to
satisfy the functions. We will then use this information and QFD
techniques to build a house of quality for the project. For the rest
of the project we will refer back to the house of quality when making
trade-off decisions and to assure that the team stays on track. Also
the responses we got regarding patent issues have proven to be very
useful.

coty

Date: 19 Sep 2006 10:52:09
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Coty189 wrote:
> Hello,
> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> engineering student

Coty,
Lots of relevant, if challenging, advice here. In return (for the
expert knowledge and thoughtful opinions shared), please report on how
this information is being received by your team members, yourself,
advisors, etc. How does any of this matter to you and others?

tin

Date: 19 Sep 2006 09:59:18
From: Don C.
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Dan Bollinger wrote:

> Frankly, if you really want the best possible outcome. Kick three of your
> engineers off the team and add Industrial Designer, keting, and Food Sciences
> students. Dan

Maybe put a Law student on mock retainer to negotiate the liability
issues and clear the way for UL approval and listing. The problem with
adding the keting perspective is that any student worth his salt
would have to veto the project as currently outlined in favor of a more
"ket-friendly" end-product.

All this said I can't help but smile at the idea of Rube Goldberg
taking a stab at this project. I picture lots of conveyor belts and
pulleys and stuff. Maybe you could make it so that the conveyor belt
would take 24 hours for the batch to get from the roaster to the
grinder. That way you could add a batch to the roaster today but the
beans going into the grinder would be yesterday's roast batch. With
this design you could get around the kitchen friendly roaster
limitations by mounting the roaster on the patio and having the
conveyor belt run through the kitchen window. Hey, maybe I'm onto
something. Luckily this design idea is posted publicly and
attributable to me. :)

Date: 19 Sep 2006 10:39:56
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Date: 18 Sep 2006 23:20:06
From: razmoo
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

how about making a teleporter? i think someone is already working on it
but haven't heard any updates. I think it should be flat and round and
when its doing its stuff a blue light should shine.

helluva useful!

Date: 18 Sep 2006 23:07:04
From: Don C.
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

I smell troll also but what the heck . . .

This sounds to me like a worthy project for Mr. Bean. Along the lines
of his room painting machine. ( A stick of dynamite in a can of
paint.) Or maybe Nick Park- of Wallace and Gromit fame. (Wallace
could use it along with his breakfast making machine.)

If the OP were able to perfect just the first step of the process that
would be a MAJOR accomplishment. However, to this point I have not
encountered or even heard of a roaster that could reliably produce an
ideally profiled roast without significant hands-on interaction. Even
programmable roasters require babysitting to ensure proper temperature
ramps and end point for the roast.

To successfully engineer and produce a truly hands off roaster that
took into account the many variables (origin, density, moisture
content, age, etc,etc) of roasting would be an admirable
accomplishment. For an academic exercise that is. The reality is that
liability issues would require you to plaster the warning "FIRE Hazard!
NEVER leave this machine unattended!" To then take this device and rig
it to an automatic grinder/brewer would be ludicrous though. I have
roasted over 100 different varieties of greens and of those I have
found only two that were even drinkable immediately after roasting
(both of them were DP Ethiopians.) The overwhelming majority of beans
not only benefit from, but require, a resting period of at least 24
hours before brewing. This includes every Nicaraguan I have ever
tried.

Maybe the next project should be an automatic Art producing machine.
Add paints and and a canvas and in 15-20 minutes Voila! Fresh Art. Or
maybe a French Toast machine. Add flour, yeast, water and eggs. First
it bakes the bread, then slices it, etc. No wait, I have it. An
automatic Roast Chicken dinner making machine. Add an egg, chicken
feed, and veggies. Attach an incubator to a Turbo Oven . . .

Coty189 wrote:
> Hello,
> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
> engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
> Michigan. I am currently working on designing and building a new type
> of coffee machine with a group of my fellow students. The goal of the
> project is to create a machine that will allow the user to get the
> freshest possible cup of coffee. The user will load the machine with
> green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
> coffee for the user. A preliminary prototype has already been built
> and works (crudley). Our task is to improve the design and
> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
> from the roasting process.
>
> In an attempt to assure that our machine can satisfy the needs of
> the customer (you), I am asking for your input. From what I can tell
> from your postings this group is full of people with valuable input.
> Please tell me your likes or dislikes about the Roasting, Grinding, and
> Brewing products that you use or have used in the past. Tell me what
> features you like or dislike about these products. If you think this
> project is a bad idea, thats fine, tell me why. This is your chance to
> put in your two cents and help us create a product that is designed
> with your needs in mind.

Date: 18 Sep 2006 22:07:24
From: razmoo
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Hello, sounds like a fun project! goodluck!

Firstly let me just say I love coffee but I despise those super
auto/semi auto machines. (like starbucks) cause the espresso is crap,
and the milk is crap.

Also I don't know how to roast my own so I'll skip that part..

Anyways.. if you can make a machine that:

1. makes great espresso - (by itself without the need for milk)
2. makes beautiful textured milk (not bubbly/foam mess crap)
3. adds 1 & 2 together if you want

then your on a winner, concentrate on the single parts I reckon. Don't
just go to step 3 and say ah it tastes ok combined so its good.

Date: 18 Sep 2006 23:33:42
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On 2006-09-18, Coty189 <lindelco@student.gvsu.edu > wrote:
> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
> from the roasting process.

Where'd the engineers come from. Grad students? And what are the
chemists planning on doing? Turning the "smoke and smell" into gold?

I smell burnt troll.

nb

Date: 19 Sep 2006 05:08:25
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:33:42 -0500, notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote:

>On 2006-09-18, Coty189 <lindelco@student.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
>> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
>> from the roasting process.
>
>Where'd the engineers come from. Grad students? And what are the
>chemists planning on doing? Turning the "smoke and smell" into gold?
>
>I smell burnt troll.
>
>nb

In times past "Engineer" was rarley used in the same sentence as
"Sanitation"...

Ever read the syllabus at a modern university? Such a project is
definitely within the realms of Social Engineering 101 and Advanced
Hispanic Studies.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 09:48:34
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Yep, it meets the smell test for something connected with a university -
unrealistic goals - check. Politically correct attempt to connect the
project to the 3rd world - check. No trolls in sight, just university
faculty.

Remember this is just a class exercise and cannot really be expected to
succeed - the effort is what counts, not the end result. That being said, it
would have been better if they had not bit off so much more than they could
chew. An all in one machine is at least 3 machines in one box - a roaster,
a grinder, a brewer (plus subsystems to send the beans from one device to
the next). Making a truly superior version of any one of these machines that
can sell at an economical price would have been a major challenge, but a
worthy one for a class project (even that is too ambitious - something like
a can opener would have been more realistic - you just have to think of a
politcally correct twist - a can opener for the disabled - an eco friendly
version that uses no electricity - that's the ticket). Forcing students to
work on all three at once can only result in a scatterbrained effort that is
spread too thin. A kitchen friendly tabletop roaster is an especially
difficult challenge that has pretty much defied efforts at a workable
solution by much bigger fish. Even creating a device that will grind beans
with a consistent particle size or will heat water to the correct
temperature (again without retailing at $200 each) is no small thing. Put
these altogether in one box and doing it in the course of one semester is
like asking beginning climbers to mount a mission to Everest.

"I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:hiuug2l5of63modp4d80s4asa661hua94f@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:33:42 -0500, notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2006-09-18, Coty189 <lindelco@student.gvsu.edu> wrote:
>>> functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
>>> the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
>>> from the roasting process.
>>
>>Where'd the engineers come from. Grad students? And what are the
>>chemists planning on doing? Turning the "smoke and smell" into gold?
>>
>>I smell burnt troll.
>>
>>nb
>
> In times past "Engineer" was rarley used in the same sentence as
> "Sanitation"...
>
> Ever read the syllabus at a modern university? Such a project is
> definitely within the realms of Social Engineering 101 and Advanced
> Hispanic Studies.
>

Date: 19 Sep 2006 03:20:10
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On 18 Sep 2006 16:52:09 -0700, "Coty189" <lindelco@student.gvsu.edu >
wrote:

>Hello,
> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
>engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
>Michigan. I am currently working on designing and building a new type
>of coffee machine with a group of my fellow students. The goal of the
>project is to create a machine that will allow the user to get the
>freshest possible cup of coffee. The user will load the machine with
>green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
>coffee for the user. A preliminary prototype has already been built
>and works (crudley). Our task is to improve the design and
>functionality of the machine. We have electrical engineers working on
>the user interface and chemists working on handling the smoke and smell
>from the roasting process.
>
> In an attempt to assure that our machine can satisfy the needs of
>the customer (you), I am asking for your input. From what I can tell
>from your postings this group is full of people with valuable input.
>Please tell me your likes or dislikes about the Roasting, Grinding, and
>Brewing products that you use or have used in the past. Tell me what
>features you like or dislike about these products. If you think this
>project is a bad idea, thats fine, tell me why. This is your chance to
>put in your two cents and help us create a product that is designed
>with your needs in mind.

Kazuo Enomoto invented such a machine in 1990. It is still protected
by U.S. Patent #5,083,502. There is a picture of it on page 183 of Ian
Bersten's classic "Coffee Floats, Tea Sinks." It's very neat and
compact. Bersten says it produced a pot of coffee from green beans in
about 17 minutes.

I hope you checked it out before starting your design.

I'm pretty sure there was also a German home machine that did the same
thing in the 1980's. But, I can't recall the details.

Personally, I doubt there is a ket for it, mainly because I can't
see the advantage of combining a roaster and brewer in the same
device. You are talking about generating a lot of heat in a small
space with a lot of electronics -- not a formula for long-lived
consumer products.

I would also suggest you consult with with the ACEN in Nicaragua or a
U.S. organization, such as the Coffee Quality Institute. They would be
a good source of information on projects that have and have not helped
Nicaraguan coffee farmers.

shall

Date: 19 Sep 2006 18:12:18
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 03:20:10 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>Kazuo Enomoto invented such a machine in 1990. It is still protected
>by U.S. Patent #5,083,502. There is a picture of it on page 183 of Ian
>Bersten's classic "Coffee Floats, Tea Sinks." It's very neat and
>compact. Bersten says it produced a pot of coffee from green beans in
>about 17 minutes.

I've posted an image of it on alt.binaries.coffee. As you can see, it
is very slick looking, a compact cube.

shall

Date: 18 Sep 2006 19:01:22
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Coty189 wrote:
> In an attempt to assure that our machine can satisfy the needs of
> the customer (you), I am asking for your input. From what I can tell
> from your postings this group is full of people with valuable input.
> Please tell me your likes or dislikes about the Roasting, Grinding, and
> Brewing products that you use or have used in the past. Tell me what
> features you like or dislike about these products. If you think this
> project is a bad idea, thats fine, tell me why. This is your chance to
> put in your two cents and help us create a product that is designed
> with your needs in mind.

I want coffee extracted under 9 atmospheres of pressure. Drip brewing
does not capture coffee bean oils or an essense of optimal extraction.
Think bigger, drop the brew and make it espresso. The roaster is a
sweet touch. What's lacking is in the presentiment - it's utilization.
Measures, ounces of beans that need to be doled ahead. The concept
doesn't change, and the freshest aspect remains part of the process, a
convenience item inclusive of roasting. A precision conical grinder is
best. I'd like to see a capital keting team tap into lucrative
reserves if traditional Americano habits were to change. Good idea,
give the foreign makes a run on their money. Italians first applied
the precepts you've assigned. If you want to know what freshest is
look there. Your problem is you cannot, right away, sell $10,000 Swiss
and Italian machinery, having reverse engineered it for a $500 Chinese
manufacturing base. Testing. When Bill Gates first engineered MS Word,
he setup cameras in front of subjects to measure their responses. What
ticks plagued their countenances or inefficiencies betrayed movements
their hands took. Expect the same from your reviewers. Deliver. Last
item is to budget endeavours. Only in time, and only after sufficient
demand rises to make vels commonplace commodities. Even I might have
to think twice about paying you $500 for all of that (there's a saying
- they don't get that way for nothing). -Happy entrepreneuring.

Date: 18 Sep 2006 18:13:43
From: Coty189
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

The idea for the machine is based on a plan to help support the income
of nicaraguan coffee farmers. The target ket for this product has
been identfied as upper income level ($75,000-$115,000) coffee lovers.
The machine will come with a subscription to nicaraguan coffee from a
different coffee farm every month. We don't want to limit the machine
to only one kind of coffee though. Part of our new design is to allow
the user to access the beans between any of the processes (when safe).
So if you want to just Roast, just Grind, or Just brew coffee you have
the option.
abimer wrote:
> I have to concur with the posts above. This project is a bad idea.
>
> As mentioned above, fresh coffee is important, but it does not follow
> that the freshest possible coffee is the best. Resting is important,
> perhaps ~2 days. I know this isn't always done - Ethipian coffee for
> example - but then the ceremony in this is paramount.
>
> This project, as far as I can tell, could only use single origin
> coffee, as blends optimally require separate roasting of the different
> origins.
>
> I for one would not like to wait around for coffee to roast every
> morning. Also to have a roaster, grinder and some sort of coffee
> extractor sounds expensive.
>
> I could, however, imagine some sort of commercial application for this
> where companies that sell drip coffee could roast a days coffee and
> grind and brew to order. That could save them some money.
>
> As a home user, and for specifically for espresso, I wouldn't touch it.
> Machines with built in grinders tend to be poor as it is, let alone
> adding a roaster.
>
> Good luck,
> Paul.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 01:58:46
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

>The user will load the machine with
>green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
>coffee for the user.

It's been done; careful you don't crack up against existing patents. IIRC it
was Toshiba in Japan, but I could be wrong.

--
Alan

alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au

Date: 19 Sep 2006 05:27:19
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 01:58:46 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
<alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:

>It's been done; careful you don't crack up against existing patents. IIRC it
>was Toshiba in Japan, but I could be wrong.

wasn't it Unimax?

Date: 18 Sep 2006 18:08:21
From: Coty189
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

Date: 18 Sep 2006 17:45:28
From: abimer
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

I have to concur with the posts above. This project is a bad idea.

As mentioned above, fresh coffee is important, but it does not follow
that the freshest possible coffee is the best. Resting is important,
perhaps ~2 days. I know this isn't always done - Ethipian coffee for
example - but then the ceremony in this is paramount.

This project, as far as I can tell, could only use single origin
coffee, as blends optimally require separate roasting of the different
origins.

I for one would not like to wait around for coffee to roast every
morning. Also to have a roaster, grinder and some sort of coffee
extractor sounds expensive.

I could, however, imagine some sort of commercial application for this
where companies that sell drip coffee could roast a days coffee and
grind and brew to order. That could save them some money.

As a home user, and for specifically for espresso, I wouldn't touch it.
Machines with built in grinders tend to be poor as it is, let alone
adding a roaster.

Good luck,
Paul.

Date: 19 Sep 2006 04:22:03
From: Colin B.
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

abimer <paumcb12@gmail.com > wrote:
> I have to concur with the posts above. This project is a bad idea.

I'd just like to qualify that statement.

As a consumer product, this project is a bad idea.
As a third-world-aid project, it's also a bad idea.
As an engineering challenge, it's fantastic! The ultimate Rube Goldberg
device, and the end result is coffee!

Date: 18 Sep 2006 17:42:05
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

"Coty189" <lindelco@student.gvsu.edu > wrote:

>Hello,
> My name is Coty and I just joined this wonderful group. I am an
>engineering student at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids,
>Michigan. I am currently working on designing and building a new type
>of coffee machine with a group of my fellow students. The goal of the
>project is to create a machine that will allow the user to get the
>freshest possible cup of coffee. The user will load the machine with
>green coffee beans and the machine will Roast,Grind, and Brew the
>coffee for the user.
>

As an engineering project, on its own merit, it is a challenging one.
Just getting it in a reasonable size for home use and still not
produce smoke would be a challenge in and of itself. To get it to make
a decent cup of coffee is a real test!

Some coffee is quite drinkable right after roasting, but as Ian
stated, many coffees are best when allowed to rest for a bit after
roasting- sometimes they are best two or three days after roasting, so
the ability to eject the beans to an external container and then be
able to reload them into the machine at a later time for brewing would
be desirable.

The complications of dealing with chaff and being able to clean the
roaster occasionally is important, and the same can be said for the
grinder and brewing areas. Giving consumer access to easily achieve
that makes this even more complicated.

As far as roasting, controlling the roast will be difficult. How will
it know the difference between some dry beans that roast very fast, or
decaf that roasts even faster? Temperature? Color? This would regulate
the roast time only, so some beans would be done very quickly and
others would take longer, and this has an effect on taste.

Although a fun project, on a scale of 1 to 10, this would score just a
bit less than 1 to consumers. On the other hand, the closets of the
consumer world are packed with all sorts of machines that no one uses
but plenty of people buy. I have bought two nearly-new Zojurushi
bread machines at thrift stores for a total of about $14.

Randy
"how many bread machines does it take to screw in a light bulb?"
G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 19 Sep 2006 00:16:44
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

On 18 Sep 2006 16:52:09 -0700, "Coty189" <lindelco@student.gvsu.edu >
wrote:

> (crudley)
[sic]

the coffee is probably "crudley", too.

It's faddish in some locations to roast and brew, but most coffee
needs to rest between roasting brewing. The interval is not a
constant.

Will you give the patron a chit:
"We've roasted your Kona. Please come back Tuesday"

Date: 18 Sep 2006 17:00:14
From: Todd94590
Subject: Re: Your input is needed for the design of a new type of coffee machine

um, good luck with it, but my personal feelings on this is that
roasting should remain a separate task.

Todd in Vallejo