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Date: 01 Mar 2007 22:49:47
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: boiler insulation
I've decided to insulate the boiler of the Bunn ES-1A. It's on 24/7 & while
I'm not too concerned about it my wife is on a 'green' tear just now. We've
already swapped out all incandescent bulbs for florescent & added six more
inches of batting in the roof. Now she's eyeing the Bunn & asking why it has
to be powered up all of the time. For those lucky enough to know my spouse
you'll understand why it's *usually* a lot easier to get on board when she
goes on a tear - so, as I said it's time to insulate the boiler.

I've looked up past boiler insulation projects & they are very helpful, but
generally given to overkill. I don't want to spend more than is necessary to
get a good level of heat retention. After looking at different materials &
specs I've decided on hi-temp fiberglass sheets. It's K-factor of .26 & temp
rating to 1000F, when taken together with the low price of $20 for a 24" x
96" x 1.5" strip make it very attractive. Some of the other, more exotic
forms of insulation used can get very pricey (100's for enough to insulate 2
boilers) and the K-factors & max temp ratings looked iffy. I will totally
enclose the boiler & all tubing attached to it (up to 4" from boiler), using
duct tape to seal the edges.

Can anyone point out any pitfalls that I should avoid?
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r






 
Date: 04 Mar 2007 12:38:38
From: Felix
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Dan Bollinger responds:
> > Hindsight reveals that my response followed yours,
> > but it was hard to tell from here ...
>
> Here, too. Apologies for the confusion.

Thank you, Dan. In case you're curious and not using a threaded
newsreader, the message headers reveal who's responding to what. In
this case, our responses both have the same References field value.
The earthlink message identifiers are for Robert's response and
original posting, respectively. The insightbb identifier belongs to
your first response:

<fMIFh.5349$PL.868@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net >
<vZidnRsCaaUoWnXYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@insightbb.com >
<4c6Gh.7873$_73.6396@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >

> I have used 1" fiberglass (gets mussy and falls off
> eventually) and 1/4" ceramic felt (stays on year after
> year). Both reduced the 'on' portion of they heating
> cycle about 40%.

Your experience suggests that 1.5" of fiberglass might work better
unless/until it falls off. On the other hand, since the minimum RCF
purchase is large compared to the boiler's size, Robert would have
more than enough for a second layer. And if he buys an entire roll,
maybe his wife will think twice before starting another campaign?


Felix



  
Date: 04 Mar 2007 17:20:58
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
> Your experience suggests that 1.5" of fiberglass might work better
> unless/until it falls off.

Fiberglass insulation's efficiency is based on density and thickness. Poor
installation can all but negate any benefit. What I've found is that there is
rarely room for more than a quarter of an inch in places, and barely room for
anything over an inch. What you don't want to do is bury wiring, electrical
devices, or any other component that is heat sensitive under insulation wrap.
That's why the thin ceramic felt was attractive, to me. Dan



  
Date: 04 Mar 2007 21:33:44
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Howdy Felix!
Nope, a purchase like that wouldn't begin to faze the Dragon Lady, not with
her Nordstrom's charge card numbered 0001098. I truly believe Nordstrom came
to Houston because it couldn't afford doing without her business; in fact
I've heard (just a rumor) that Nordy lobbied the Lazy 'B' to keep her in the
PNW.

I've purchased a roll of foil-backed fiberglass & a roll of foil backed duct
tape. I see no reason that this shouldn't hold up as long as no leaks
develop to get things all gooey (tech jargon).
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Felix" <felixyen@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1173040718.321068.176530@n33g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Your experience suggests that 1.5" of fiberglass might work better
> unless/until it falls off. On the other hand, since the minimum RCF
> purchase is large compared to the boiler's size, Robert would have
> more than enough for a second layer. And if he buys an entire roll,
> maybe his wife will think twice before starting another campaign?
>
>
> Felix
>




 
Date: 04 Mar 2007 09:22:15
From: daveb
Subject: Re: boiler insulation

> I have used 1" fiberglass (gets mussy and falls off eventually) and 1/4" ceramic
> felt (stays on year after year). Both reduced the 'on' portion of they heating
> cycle about 40%. A 50% energy savings is significant, and is worth the
> investment in time and energy. Dan

IMO, totally correct, Dan

NO matter how it gets done, it is a great thing to do.
all Quick Mill HX machines arrive with an insulated boiler. and the
Alexia -- they are all naked but leave fully clothed.

What is WITH the "cup warmer" myth?

When are the Italians gonna catch on?

Dave



 
Date: 03 Mar 2007 19:04:05
From: Felix
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Dan Bollinger writes:
> Felix, I don't see where I overlooked anything.

Hindsight reveals that my response followed yours, but it was hard to
tell from here ... Though propagation delay isn't so obvious these
days, it still exists. Maybe you overlooked that.

> > Maybe they'll sell you a roll for $300 :-)
>
> I'm sure they would since the are in that business
> is selling as much as possible, but if you want a
> better price on a roll, then go to the mfgr. and buy
> it direct.

I think we overestimated their gin. The manufacturer's price sheet
lists 550K at $3.37 per square foot (FOB Tonawanda, NY), before
quantity discounts.

Returning to the original question, I'm unable to compare the thermal
properties of 550K and Robert's fiberglass. The unit price for his $20
purchase is $1.25 per square foot. Why should he prefer 550K? Will
0.25" of RCF insulate as well as 1.5" of fiberglass??


Felix



  
Date: 04 Mar 2007 09:18:54
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
> Hindsight reveals that my response followed yours, but it was hard to
> tell from here ...

Here, too. Apologies for the confusion.

> Returning to the original question, I'm unable to compare the thermal
> properties of 550K and Robert's fiberglass. The unit price for his $20
> purchase is $1.25 per square foot. Why should he prefer 550K? Will
> 0.25" of RCF insulate as well as 1.5" of fiberglass??

I have used 1" fiberglass (gets mussy and falls off eventually) and 1/4" ceramic
felt (stays on year after year). Both reduced the 'on' portion of they heating
cycle about 40%. A 50% energy savings is significant, and is worth the
investment in time and energy. Dan




 
Date: 03 Mar 2007 13:41:43
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Before you use ceramic felt read the bloody MSDS

If you are comfortable with :

EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
WARNING!
POSSIBLE CANCER HAZARD BY INHALATION.

RESPIRATORY TRACT (nose and throat) IRRITATION:
If inhaled in sufficient quantity, may cause temporary, mild
mechanical scratchiness of the nose or throat, cough or chest
discomfort.

EYE IRRITATION:
May cause temporary, mild mechanical irritation. Fibers may be
abrasive; prolonged contact may cause damage surface of the eye.

SKIN IRRITATION:
May cause temporary, mild mechanical irritation. Exposure may also
result in inflammation, rash or itching.

MEDICAL CONDITIONS AGGRAVATED BY EXPOSURE:
Pre-existing medical conditions, including dermatitis, asthma or
chronic lung disease may be aggravated by exposure;
individuals who have a history of allergies may experience greater
amounts of skin and respiratory irritation.

then by all means go for it.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 03 Mar 2007 13:14:38
From: daveb
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
On 3, 3:18 pm, Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk > wrote:
> On Sat, 3 , Dan Bollinger <> wrote:
>
> [quoting felix]
>
> > > The price is right, but you're missing a dimension. 1/4" is the
> > > height or thickness of the material, and the minimum order is 4
> > > square feet, i.e. 12"x48". You probably overlooked this:
>
> > Felix, I don't see where I overlooked anything.
>
> I think you've maybe overlooked that he's replying to Robert, not you.
> This can possibly be gleaned from the fact he wrote "Robert asks" and
> then quotes Robert Harmon before stating what you've quoted above.
>
> Quite how anyone can possibly read what he wrote as referring to
> something you wrote, I don't know (the references refer to Robert's
> post, he said "Robert asks", he quote's Robert's post, he doesn't
> refer to you or quote you).
>
> > If you are making a funny, then it is not coming through via email.
>
> Ah, are _you_ 'making a funny'?
>
> regards, Ian SMith
> --
>


 
Date: 03 Mar 2007 05:33:27
From: Felix
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Robert asks:
> Am I figuring the price correctly - $18 US for
> a piece 1/4" x 48"?

The price is right, but you're missing a dimension. 1/4" is the height
or thickness of the material, and the minimum order is 4 square feet,
i.e. 12"x48". You probably overlooked this:

"Available in your choice of square foot sizes (please order in 4
square foot increments - example: 1' x 4') Also available as a 100
square foot boxed roll (48" x 25')"

Maybe they'll sell you a roll for $300 :-)


Felix



  
Date: 03 Mar 2007 11:20:43
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
> The price is right, but you're missing a dimension. 1/4" is the height
> or thickness of the material, and the minimum order is 4 square feet,
> i.e. 12"x48". You probably overlooked this:
>
> "Available in your choice of square foot sizes (please order in 4
> square foot increments - example: 1' x 4') Also available as a 100
> square foot boxed roll (48" x 25')"

Felix, I don't see where I overlooked anything. We are both saying the minimum
order is 4 square feet. If you are making a funny, then it is not coming
through via email.

> Maybe they'll sell you a roll for $300 :-)

I'm sure they would since the are in that business is selling as much as
possible, but if you want a better price on a roll, then go to the mfgr. and buy
it direct. Dan





   
Date: 03 Mar 2007 20:18:17
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
On Sat, 3 , Dan Bollinger < > wrote:
[quoting felix]

> > The price is right, but you're missing a dimension. 1/4" is the
> > height or thickness of the material, and the minimum order is 4
> > square feet, i.e. 12"x48". You probably overlooked this:
>
> Felix, I don't see where I overlooked anything.

I think you've maybe overlooked that he's replying to Robert, not you.
This can possibly be gleaned from the fact he wrote "Robert asks" and
then quotes Robert Harmon before stating what you've quoted above.

Quite how anyone can possibly read what he wrote as referring to
something you wrote, I don't know (the references refer to Robert's
post, he said "Robert asks", he quote's Robert's post, he doesn't
refer to you or quote you).

> If you are making a funny, then it is not coming through via email.

Ah, are _you_ 'making a funny'?

regards, Ian SMith
--


 
Date: 02 Mar 2007 19:56:20
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
> I've decided to insulate the boiler of the Bunn ES-1A.

I use the ceramic blanket (more like felt) from
http://www.infraredheaters.com/550-k.htm See my installation at:
http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/ceramic_insulation1.jpg

Dan



  
Date: 03 Mar 2007 03:46:08
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Howdy Danny!
Am I figuring the price correctly - $18 US for a piece 1/4" x 48"? How much
would it be for enough to wrap a boiler? My goal is to demonstrate a way to
do this getting the most bang for the buck & I'm afraid this would be
prohibitively expensive for most folks.
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:vZidnRsCaaUoWnXYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@insightbb.com...
>> I've decided to insulate the boiler of the Bunn ES-1A.
>
> I use the ceramic blanket (more like felt) from
> http://www.infraredheaters.com/550-k.htm See my installation at:
> http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/ceramic_insulation1.jpg
>
> Dan
>




   
Date: 03 Mar 2007 08:20:21
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
> Am I figuring the price correctly - $18 US for a piece 1/4" x 48"? How much
> would it be for enough to wrap a boiler?

The minimum is one lineal foot off a 4' roll, so it would measure 12" x 48".
That's enough for 3-4 boilers. Not bad if you go in with someone. Dan




My goal is to demonstrate a way to
> do this getting the most bang for the buck & I'm afraid this would be
> prohibitively expensive for most folks.
> --
> Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
> "Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote in message
> news:vZidnRsCaaUoWnXYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@insightbb.com...
>>> I've decided to insulate the boiler of the Bunn ES-1A.
>>
>> I use the ceramic blanket (more like felt) from
>> http://www.infraredheaters.com/550-k.htm See my installation at:
>> http://www.claycritters.com/coffee/ceramic_insulation1.jpg
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
>



 
Date: 02 Mar 2007 05:41:41
From: MOJO
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
On 1, 5:49 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> snip
> duct tape to seal the edges.

Hey Robert. When I reinsulated my machine, I used NYLON wire ties to
secure the insulation. I think it was the electrician in me that
preferred this and I had seen them on some other machines. Mine was
overlapped so top and bottom held it with the middle tie used just to
pull the insulation in a bit.

I had a chance to use a Bunn over the weekend and did notice the back
shedding a little more warmth than I expected.

Good luck on both fronts.

MOJO
(Boiler Mate Thrid Class)






  
Date: 02 Mar 2007 17:49:46
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
*One* of the problems with the Bunn is that it has steel exterior panels.
While these take wear & tear much better than the plastic panels so many
commercial makers fancy, they make better radiant heaters than the plastic
ones. The insulation project will take care of that.

How did you come to try a Bunn & which model was it? After I got a few leaks
under control & mastered the programming of the auto dosing panel I
developed a real attachment to my Bunn. My wife says I've always been a bun
man (don't know what she's referring to - I generally don't care for hotdogs
& hamburgers), but it's true now; I sold the Cimbali & Simonellis in favor
of the Bunn.

The smaller footprint (less space required than an Oscar) of the 1-group
Bunn meant counter space available for other things and the auto
preinfusion, & the E61 compatible group made it an obvious choice for home
use. It does have a smaller boiler than most commercial machines, causing
some temperature instability problems if put to heavy use. The PID
installation & the upcoming insulation project will hopefully eliminate this
as a problem.
--
Robert (Real men appreciate nice Bunns!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"MOJO" <magnumpiinohio@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1172842901.794839.197060@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On 1, 5:49 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>> snip
>> duct tape to seal the edges.
>
> Hey Robert. When I reinsulated my machine, I used NYLON wire ties to
> secure the insulation. I think it was the electrician in me that
> preferred this and I had seen them on some other machines. Mine was
> overlapped so top and bottom held it with the middle tie used just to
> pull the insulation in a bit.
>
> I had a chance to use a Bunn over the weekend and did notice the back
> shedding a little more warmth than I expected.
>
> Good luck on both fronts.
>
> MOJO
> (Boiler Mate Thrid Class)
>
>
>
>




 
Date: 02 Mar 2007 07:43:08
From: Eric Svendson
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Do not insulate the tubing which forms the thermosyphon loop from the hx to
the group. This system can be very finicky as it depends on the density
delta to effect flow.

Eric S.




  
Date: 02 Mar 2007 17:53:25
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Howdy Eric!
Thanks for the tip - I'd completely overlooked the potential problems with
the thermosyphon. And that folks, is why running ideas by the group *before*
implementation is a good idea!
--
Robert (Not perfect, but gets things done!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Eric Svendson" <erics@erols.com > wrote in message
news:Q8WdnUlb_JV9hnXYnZ2dnUVZ_t-mnZ2d@rcn.net...
> Do not insulate the tubing which forms the thermosyphon loop from the hx
> to the group. This system can be very finicky as it depends on the
> density delta to effect flow.
>
> Eric S.
>




 
Date: 02 Mar 2007 01:22:45
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Some of the friendly folks at coffeesnobs.com.au recently put together
an order for silicone sponge rubber sheet from this Chinese company:

http://tinyurl.com/3ymp2

I understand the pricing was very reasonable. I've tried to make
contact to inquire about buying a quantity of the material, but have
not yet heard back.

Personally, I'd avoid fiberglass because I don't have the skill to
handle it without getting fibers everywhere. Plus, the fibers are
very fond of sticking to rubber tubes, which may present an
opportunity for getting them in the water reservoir of a pourover.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

Jim


On Thu, 01 2007 22:49:47 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>I've decided to insulate the boiler of the Bunn ES-1A. It's on 24/7 & while
>I'm not too concerned about it my wife is on a 'green' tear just now. We've
>already swapped out all incandescent bulbs for florescent & added six more
>inches of batting in the roof. Now she's eyeing the Bunn & asking why it has
>to be powered up all of the time. For those lucky enough to know my spouse
>you'll understand why it's *usually* a lot easier to get on board when she
>goes on a tear - so, as I said it's time to insulate the boiler.
>
>I've looked up past boiler insulation projects & they are very helpful, but
>generally given to overkill. I don't want to spend more than is necessary to
>get a good level of heat retention. After looking at different materials &
>specs I've decided on hi-temp fiberglass sheets. It's K-factor of .26 & temp
>rating to 1000F, when taken together with the low price of $20 for a 24" x
>96" x 1.5" strip make it very attractive. Some of the other, more exotic
>forms of insulation used can get very pricey (100's for enough to insulate 2
>boilers) and the K-factors & max temp ratings looked iffy. I will totally
>enclose the boiler & all tubing attached to it (up to 4" from boiler), using
>duct tape to seal the edges.
>
>Can anyone point out any pitfalls that I should avoid?


  
Date: 02 Mar 2007 17:14:28
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
Howdy Jim!
Link's not working;
Yahoo! Sports - News Article Expired/Not Available

Yahoo! Sports - News Article Expired/Not Available



--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:3lffu294810dresiledrddlic5pmmabl19@4ax.com...
> Some of the friendly folks at coffeesnobs.com.au recently put together
> an order for silicone sponge rubber sheet from this Chinese company:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3ymp2
>
> I understand the pricing was very reasonable. I've tried to make
> contact to inquire about buying a quantity of the material, but have
> not yet heard back.
>
> Personally, I'd avoid fiberglass because I don't have the skill to
> handle it without getting fibers everywhere. Plus, the fibers are
> very fond of sticking to rubber tubes, which may present an
> opportunity for getting them in the water reservoir of a pourover.
>
> FWIW, YMMV, etc.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Thu, 01 2007 22:49:47 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
> <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've decided to insulate the boiler of the Bunn ES-1A. It's on 24/7 &
>>while
>>I'm not too concerned about it my wife is on a 'green' tear just now.
>>We've
>>already swapped out all incandescent bulbs for florescent & added six more
>>inches of batting in the roof. Now she's eyeing the Bunn & asking why it
>>has
>>to be powered up all of the time. For those lucky enough to know my spouse
>>you'll understand why it's *usually* a lot easier to get on board when she
>>goes on a tear - so, as I said it's time to insulate the boiler.
>>
>>I've looked up past boiler insulation projects & they are very helpful,
>>but
>>generally given to overkill. I don't want to spend more than is necessary
>>to
>>get a good level of heat retention. After looking at different materials &
>>specs I've decided on hi-temp fiberglass sheets. It's K-factor of .26 &
>>temp
>>rating to 1000F, when taken together with the low price of $20 for a 24" x
>>96" x 1.5" strip make it very attractive. Some of the other, more exotic
>>forms of insulation used can get very pricey (100's for enough to insulate
>>2
>>boilers) and the K-factors & max temp ratings looked iffy. I will totally
>>enclose the boiler & all tubing attached to it (up to 4" from boiler),
>>using
>>duct tape to seal the edges.
>>
>>Can anyone point out any pitfalls that I should avoid?




   
Date: 02 Mar 2007 16:05:38
From: JimG
Subject: Re: boiler insulation
On Fri, 02 2007 17:14:28 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

> Howdy Jim!
> Link's not working;
> Yahoo! Sports - News Article Expired/Not Available

Odd. Sorry about that.

Try this:

http://dcdsg.en.alibaba.com/offerdetail/51402835/Sell_Calt_Silicone_Rubber.html

Jim