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Date: 11 Aug 2007 00:56:36
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: built in coffeee brewer
Im the happy owner of a Miele cva 620 its brewed around 10.000 cups for
me ;) so far...

It has a shortcoming though: it seems not to be geared toward bigger
cups of coffee, if you brew a decent cup, it cant really make it strong
enough... you have to make two smaller cups etc..


Yesterday I tried an Jura Imprezza (F90 I think) I was quite impressed
both with the speed, and the ability to brew a large cup of double mocha
in one go..
Also the ability to connect a milk can driectly to the steamer was
really nice..


But its a lunk on the table, Id prefer another built-in model..

And it _has_ to be one that takes whole beans! NO f**** pads!


All suggestions and reasons apprecieated.




 
Date: 15 Aug 2007 09:25:06
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?= <kurgan@spammergoaway_kurgan.dk > wrote:



  
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:24:12
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
D. Ross wrote:
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?= <kurgan@spammergoaway_kurgan.dk> wrote:
>
>


 
Date: 11 Aug 2007 21:05:00
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
no-one on this?

Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> Im the happy owner of a Miele cva 620 its brewed around 10.000 cups for
> me ;) so far...
>
> It has a shortcoming though: it seems not to be geared toward bigger
> cups of coffee, if you brew a decent cup, it cant really make it strong
> enough... you have to make two smaller cups etc..
>
>
> Yesterday I tried an Jura Imprezza (F90 I think) I was quite impressed
> both with the speed, and the ability to brew a large cup of double mocha
> in one go..
> Also the ability to connect a milk can driectly to the steamer was
> really nice..
>
>
> But its a lunk on the table, Id prefer another built-in model..
>
> And it _has_ to be one that takes whole beans! NO f**** pads!
>
>
> All suggestions and reasons apprecieated.


  
Date: 12 Aug 2007 23:58:18
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
really... no one with good suggestions for a built in unit?




Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> no-one on this?
>
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>> Im the happy owner of a Miele cva 620 its brewed around 10.000 cups
>> for me ;) so far...
>>
>> It has a shortcoming though: it seems not to be geared toward bigger
>> cups of coffee, if you brew a decent cup, it cant really make it
>> strong enough... you have to make two smaller cups etc..
>>
>>
>> Yesterday I tried an Jura Imprezza (F90 I think) I was quite
>> impressed both with the speed, and the ability to brew a large cup of
>> double mocha in one go..
>> Also the ability to connect a milk can driectly to the steamer was
>> really nice..
>>
>>
>> But its a lunk on the table, Id prefer another built-in model..
>>
>> And it _has_ to be one that takes whole beans! NO f**** pads!
>>
>>
>> All suggestions and reasons apprecieated.


   
Date: 13 Aug 2007 20:39:30
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
:(

Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> really... no one with good suggestions for a built in unit?
>
>
>
>
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>> no-one on this?
>>
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>> Im the happy owner of a Miele cva 620 its brewed around 10.000 cups
>>> for me ;) so far...
>>>
>>> It has a shortcoming though: it seems not to be geared toward bigger
>>> cups of coffee, if you brew a decent cup, it cant really make it
>>> strong enough... you have to make two smaller cups etc..
>>>
>>>
>>> Yesterday I tried an Jura Imprezza (F90 I think) I was quite
>>> impressed both with the speed, and the ability to brew a large cup of
>>> double mocha in one go..
>>> Also the ability to connect a milk can driectly to the steamer was
>>> really nice..
>>>
>>>
>>> But its a lunk on the table, Id prefer another built-in model..
>>>
>>> And it _has_ to be one that takes whole beans! NO f**** pads!
>>>
>>>
>>> All suggestions and reasons apprecieated.


    
Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:00:29
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> :(
>
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>
>> really... no one with good suggestions for a built in unit?

Perhaps no-one has much experience, or, (more likely), no-one actually
likes superautos (built in or otherwise). Sorry that you don't want
your counter cluttered with a decent grinder and machine, but it is
the path to true enlightenment


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



     
Date: 14 Aug 2007 01:18:31
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>> :(
>>
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>
>>> really... no one with good suggestions for a built in unit?
>
> Perhaps no-one has much experience, or, (more likely), no-one actually
> likes superautos (built in or otherwise). Sorry that you don't want
> your counter cluttered with a decent grinder and machine, but it is the
> path to true enlightenment
>
>


you speak as if built-in and quality are mutually exclusive... I fail to
see why this should be the case


      
Date: 13 Aug 2007 17:12:05
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 01:18:31 +0200, Søren Jacobsen
<kurgan@spammergoaway_kurgan.dk > wrote:

>Danny wrote:
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>> :(
>>>
>>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>>
>>>> really... no one with good suggestions for a built in unit?
>>
>> Perhaps no-one has much experience, or, (more likely), no-one actually
>> likes superautos (built in or otherwise). Sorry that you don't want
>> your counter cluttered with a decent grinder and machine, but it is the
>> path to true enlightenment
>>
>>
>
>
>you speak as if built-in and quality are mutually exclusive... I fail to
>see why this should be the case

It is not a prejudice. It is a description of the current state of
things. None of the current superauto consumer models, built-in or
otherwise, makes a good espresso. If you want a superauto that makes
good espresso, you have to spend $10,000+ on a commercial machine that
requires lots of maintenance and takes up a huge amount of space.

Such as these La Cimbali's:
http://cimbali.com/eng/pr_superautomatiche.asp

Marshall


       
Date: 13 Aug 2007 22:40:44
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:12:05 -0700, Marshall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>.... None of the current superauto consumer models, built-in or
>otherwise, makes a good espresso.....

That all depends on your definition of the subjective term "good."

My Jura makes what is to me a "good" espresso. I can make better
espresso with my Gaggia Classic, but it takes a lot more work and mess
for a marginal improvement that almost no one can discern. And my wife
can't (or won't) cope with the Gaggia.

I agree that that's all it can do -- it can't make an acceptable
coffee, for example. And it takes four cycles and too many button
pushes to make an acceptable Americano. But the espresso is quite
decent.

-- Larry



        
Date: 14 Aug 2007 06:30:39
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:40:44 -0500, pltrgyst <usenet@xhost.org > wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:12:05 -0700, Marshall
><mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>.... None of the current superauto consumer models, built-in or
>>otherwise, makes a good espresso.....
>
>That all depends on your definition of the subjective term "good."
>
>My Jura makes what is to me a "good" espresso. I can make better
>espresso with my Gaggia Classic, but it takes a lot more work and mess
>for a marginal improvement that almost no one can discern. And my wife
>can't (or won't) cope with the Gaggia.

I've heard people say that before. They stop saying it after they have
had good espresso.

Many people think Taco Bell makes "good" Mexican food. They usually
stop saying so when they have had real Mexican food.

Just because two opinions are both subjective does not mean they are
equally valid, especially when one is based on more limited
experience.

Marshall


         
Date: 14 Aug 2007 11:57:46
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 06:30:39 -0700, Marshall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>>>.... None of the current superauto consumer models, built-in or
>>>otherwise, makes a good espresso.....
>>
>>That all depends on your definition of the subjective term "good."
>>
>>My Jura makes what is to me a "good" espresso. I can make better
>>espresso with my Gaggia Classic, but it takes a lot more work and mess
>>for a marginal improvement that almost no one can discern. And my wife
>>can't (or won't) cope with the Gaggia.
>
>I've heard people say that before. They stop saying it after they have
>had good espresso.
>
>Many people think Taco Bell makes "good" Mexican food. They usually
>stop saying so when they have had real Mexican food.

Marshall, I'm a foodie. I'm 60 years old, and I've been a foodie since
my teen years. My taste buds are undoubtedly in decline because of
age, but they're still functional.

My wife and I are are in Chicago at the moment. Last night we ate at
Topolobampo -- I assure you I know what good Mexican food tastes
like. (The previous nights were Red Light, MK, Crofton on Wells,
Marche, and Spiaggia.) I've been drinking Intelligentsia espresso at
several places out here, and have yet to have a cup that's noticeably
better than the doubles I make at home with the Jura.

We are discerning tasters. Our wine cellar holds around 800 bottles
(pretty much no Cabernet Sauvignon or Chardonnay; we drink a bottle
with supper every night), and our home Scotch selection numbers around
125 bottles.

I drink espresso in Italy and Europe in general several times a year;
ditto for NYC and San Francisco. Un like some, I have no trouble
finding good espresso (and Americanos) in Paris. I live in the
Washington DC area, about a half-mile away from my usual Alexandria
coffee shop and roaster, Misha's, which has been mentioned in this ng
many times. I do have the Gaggia Classic and a backup machine, along
with a Ditting KR804 grinder. I've been making espresso for over
thirty years. I am not a fanatic, and I don't roast, but I know what
good espresso tastes like.

>Just because two opinions are both subjective does not mean they are
>equally valid, especially when one is based on more limited
>experience.

I'm sorry that you feel that your experience is limited, but hang in
there. It will increase with age. 8;)

As to what I mean by "good", I mean acceptable -- the espresso my Jura
produces is better than what is served at any restaurant that I
frequent, or at any place local that I can get to easily, and as good
as that served at Misha's. Plus at home I have a choice of beans from
a broader range of roasts than Misha's offers.

-- Larry



          
Date: 15 Aug 2007 09:20:29
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
pltrgyst wrote:
-snip impressive account of discerning taste-

Whoopy-doo :)

I have no taste. I don't have a cellar of wine, I don't like wine
much, apart from quite possibly the wines you don't drink. I hate
whisky (and bourbon and 15 year old malts, apart from when I have a
cold, when they are very nice microwaved with some sugar).

I smoke, which apparently immediately means there's no point me eating
or drinking anything since I won't be able to taste it.

But I do know a good espresso, within the bounds of my experience, and
my customers are quick to tell me whether the espresso I serve them is
better or not than what they've had elsewhere. The only person of any
note to rate my espresso was Dr John from Josuma who visited with his
brother, and pronounced it to be nicely palatable.

I have played with some friends superauto machines and never managed
to get a decent shot, whereas I *know* that I will get a good shot
from a Gaggia Baby, with decent beans and grinder.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



           
Date: 15 Aug 2007 10:31:22
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> pltrgyst wrote:
> -snip impressive account of discerning taste-
>
> Whoopy-doo :)
>
> I have no taste. I don't have a cellar of wine, I don't like wine much,
> apart from quite possibly the wines you don't drink. I hate whisky (and
> bourbon and 15 year old malts, apart from when I have a cold, when they
> are very nice microwaved with some sugar).
>
> I smoke, which apparently immediately means there's no point me eating
> or drinking anything since I won't be able to taste it.
>
> But I do know a good espresso, within the bounds of my experience, and
> my customers are quick to tell me whether the espresso I serve them is
> better or not than what they've had elsewhere. The only person of any
> note to rate my espresso was Dr John from Josuma who visited with his
> brother, and pronounced it to be nicely palatable.
>
> I have played with some friends superauto machines and never managed to
> get a decent shot, whereas I *know* that I will get a good shot from a
> Gaggia Baby, with decent beans and grinder.
>
>


im curious,,, what beans do you like, how finely do you grind, an I
guess very importantly, what temperature water do you use?


            
Date: 15 Aug 2007 16:17:23
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:

> im curious,,, what beans do you like, how finely do you grind, an I
> guess very importantly, what temperature water do you use?

All of the above questions are subjective. Although espresso should
be brewed at between 88-92, and any decent home machine from Gaggia,
Rancillio etc is able to brew at that temperature, specific blends
taste better at different temperatures - hence the desire of many here
to add PID to their machines in order to be able to specify the brew
temperature to a greater degree of accuracy. I use vintage lever
machines in my business, which always brew within the above parameters
unless heavily used, in which case the temp rises slightly.

Grind is not something you can choose - it is the only way to
determine that the shot takes 20-30 seconds. Shot too slow? Adjust
grind coarser. Shot too fast? Adjust grind finer. That's how it
works. As the beans stale or humidity changes, the grind must be
adjusted to reflect the change and stay within the espresso brewing
parameter. I adjust the grind constantly in the trailer (20-30 times
a day), since I'm outside and humidity affects everything much more.
I'm always chasing the perfect pour (don't often succeed!!), and also
adjusting for the occasional ristretto customer.

Beans? In the trailer I use a commercial blend I get imported from
Salerno, Italy - Trucillo. In 6 years the blend has remained
constant, and although it's not ideal by the standards of most here
(in terms of freshness), at least it comes in one-way valve bags and I
use it quite quickly (15-20kgs/week). It makes a good stright
espresso, and also cuts through milk drinks. I cannot roast enough
for my needs, although I do roast at home sometimes. I don't know
what's in Trucillo, but it's definitely a Brazil base, with probably
some indonesian etc and maybe 10-15% robusta. My preferred blend at
home is Josuma's Malabar Gold, and Barry's Decatuer st. blend was
superb, but I don't drink enough to order from the US.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



             
Date: 15 Aug 2007 20:19:25
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>
>> im curious,,, what beans do you like, how finely do you grind, an I
>> guess very importantly, what temperature water do you use?
>
> All of the above questions are subjective. Although espresso should be
> brewed at between 88-92,

celcius? right

and any decent home machine from Gaggia,
> Rancillio etc is able to brew at that temperature, specific blends taste
> better at different temperatures - hence the desire of many here to add
> PID to their machines in order to be able to specify the brew
> temperature to a greater degree of accuracy. I use vintage lever
> machines in my business, which always brew within the above parameters
> unless heavily used, in which case the temp rises slightly.
>
> Grind is not something you can choose - it is the only way to determine
> that the shot takes 20-30 seconds. Shot too slow? Adjust grind
> coarser. Shot too fast? Adjust grind finer. That's how it works. As
> the beans stale or humidity changes, the grind must be adjusted to
> reflect the change and stay within the espresso brewing parameter. I
> adjust the grind constantly in the trailer (20-30 times a day), since
> I'm outside and humidity affects everything much more. I'm always
> chasing the perfect pour (don't often succeed!!), and also adjusting for
> the occasional ristretto customer.
>
> Beans? In the trailer I use a commercial blend I get imported from
> Salerno, Italy - Trucillo. In 6 years the blend has remained constant,
> and although it's not ideal by the standards of most here (in terms of
> freshness), at least it comes in one-way valve bags and I use it quite
> quickly (15-20kgs/week). It makes a good stright espresso, and also
> cuts through milk drinks. I cannot roast enough for my needs, although
> I do roast at home sometimes. I don't know what's in Trucillo, but it's
> definitely a Brazil base, with probably some indonesian etc and maybe
> 10-15% robusta. My preferred blend at home is Josuma's Malabar Gold,
> and Barry's Decatuer st. blend was superb, but I don't drink enough to
> order from the US.
>


              
Date: 15 Aug 2007 21:49:03
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> Danny wrote:
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>
>>> im curious,,, what beans do you like, how finely do you grind, an I
>>> guess very importantly, what temperature water do you use?
>>
>> All of the above questions are subjective. Although espresso should
>> be brewed at between 88-92,
>
> celcius? right
>


ive done some testing

if I pour a 6oz cup it takes approx 25 secs

the temperature of the coffee in the cup is then approx 60 degrees
celcius... is that too low or?

any guidance is appreciated


               
Date: 15 Aug 2007 21:08:53
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:

> ive done some testing
>
> if I pour a 6oz cup it takes approx 25 secs
>
> the temperature of the coffee in the cup is then approx 60 degrees
> celcius... is that too low or?
>
> any guidance is appreciated

As David pointed out, it seems you are trying to produce a drink that
is much longer than espresso - either a cafe creme or an americano,
albeit the wrong way. Espresso is 2 fl.oz max for a double, produced
in 20-30 seconds, using 14 grammes of ground coffee, approx. If you
want a longer drink, then either add hot water to the espresso, to
make an americano, or adjust the grind to get the cafe Crema (which is
actually what you seem to be making) - although it is difficult to get
this right. Your machine cannot dispense a 6oz espresso without the
water cooling during the shot, so I'd try an Americano (brew a double,
then add hot water to get the 6 oz).


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



                
Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:30:17
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>
>> ive done some testing
>>
>> if I pour a 6oz cup it takes approx 25 secs
>>
>> the temperature of the coffee in the cup is then approx 60 degrees
>> celcius... is that too low or?
>>
>> any guidance is appreciated
>
> As David pointed out, it seems you are trying to produce a drink that is
> much longer than espresso - either a cafe creme or an americano, albeit
> the wrong way. Espresso is 2 fl.oz max for a double, produced in 20-30
> seconds, using 14 grammes of ground coffee, approx. If you want a
> longer drink, then either add hot water to the espresso, to make an
> americano, or adjust the grind to get the cafe Crema (which is actually
> what you seem to be making) - although it is difficult to get this
> right. Your machine cannot dispense a 6oz espresso without the water
> cooling during the shot, so I'd try an Americano (brew a double, then
> add hot water to get the 6 oz).
>
>


I think youre right its probably a crema im after... whats the rules of
thumb for that?


                 
Date: 15 Aug 2007 22:49:22
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:

> I think youre right its probably a crema im after... whats the rules of
> thumb for that?

As per all espresso drinks - the ideal extraction is between 20-30
seconds (approx) and you adjust the grind to get the volume you want
within this time frame (allowing for al's rule, as explained
previously), so a coarser grind will allow more coffee through.
Whatever you do, stop before the stream lightens, as this is when the
shot becomes over-extracted. As said before, your machine probably
cannot put that amount of water through the coffee before it cools -
the boiler is probably too small to contain more than 6 floz of water
at the correct temp. You'd be better off with an Americano, imho.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



                  
Date: 15 Aug 2007 23:53:01
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>
>> I think youre right its probably a crema im after... whats the rules
>> of thumb for that?
>
> As per all espresso drinks - the ideal extraction is between 20-30
> seconds (approx) and you adjust the grind to get the volume you want
> within this time frame (allowing for al's rule, as explained
> previously), so a coarser grind will allow more coffee through. Whatever
> you do, stop before the stream lightens, as this is when the shot
> becomes over-extracted. As said before, your machine probably cannot
> put that amount of water through the coffee before it cools - the boiler
> is probably too small to contain more than 6 floz of water at the
> correct temp. You'd be better off with an Americano, imho.
>
>


ok thanks Ill give it a shot!

and youre right the strem does lighten...

ok back to making experiments..

oh.. btw.. what temperature, should I expect the coffee to be _in_ the
cup after its brewed?



                   
Date: 16 Aug 2007 00:01:23
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> Danny wrote:
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>
>>> I think youre right its probably a crema im after... whats the rules
>>> of thumb for that?
>>
>> As per all espresso drinks - the ideal extraction is between 20-30
>> seconds (approx) and you adjust the grind to get the volume you want
>> within this time frame (allowing for al's rule, as explained
>> previously), so a coarser grind will allow more coffee through.
>> Whatever you do, stop before the stream lightens, as this is when the
>> shot becomes over-extracted. As said before, your machine probably
>> cannot put that amount of water through the coffee before it cools -
>> the boiler is probably too small to contain more than 6 floz of water
>> at the correct temp. You'd be better off with an Americano, imho.
>>
>>
>
>
> ok thanks Ill give it a shot!
>
> and youre right the strem does lighten...
>
> ok back to making experiments..
>
> oh.. btw.. what temperature, should I expect the coffee to be _in_ the
> cup after its brewed?
>


btw.. the cva 620 has something it calles 'prebrewing' where it
moisturizes the coffee for a few seconds, before putting the water
through.. whats your opinion on that sort of thing?


                    
Date: 15 Aug 2007 23:16:30
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:

>> ok thanks Ill give it a shot!
>>
>> and youre right the strem does lighten...
>>
>> ok back to making experiments..
>>
>> oh.. btw.. what temperature, should I expect the coffee to be _in_ the
>> cup after its brewed?

Depends - if you start with preheated cups you shouldn't lose much
heat, but the way to check it is to place a thermometer into the side
of a polystyrene cup and pull a blank shot - see what temp you are
getting from the machine.

>>
>
>
> btw.. the cva 620 has something it calles 'prebrewing' where it
> moisturizes the coffee for a few seconds, before putting the water
> through.. whats your opinion on that sort of thing?

Preinfusion, as it's rightly called, is a good thing - wetting the
cake with lower pressure water for 7-9 seconds before the extraction
proper occurs. This reduces the chances of chanelling.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



                     
Date: 16 Aug 2007 00:23:07
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>
>>> ok thanks Ill give it a shot!
>>>
>>> and youre right the strem does lighten...
>>>
>>> ok back to making experiments..
>>>
>>> oh.. btw.. what temperature, should I expect the coffee to be _in_
>>> the cup after its brewed?
>
> Depends - if you start with preheated cups you shouldn't lose much heat,
> but the way to check it is to place a thermometer into the side of a
> polystyrene cup and pull a blank shot - see what temp you are getting
> from the machine.

and it should be?

btw I think have to do this in rinse mode since its automatic nature
wont let it shoot a blank ;)


>
>>>
>>
>>
>> btw.. the cva 620 has something it calles 'prebrewing' where it
>> moisturizes the coffee for a few seconds, before putting the water
>> through.. whats your opinion on that sort of thing?
>
> Preinfusion, as it's rightly called, is a good thing - wetting the cake
> with lower pressure water for 7-9 seconds before the extraction proper
> occurs. This reduces the chances of chanelling.
>

ok makes sense/sounds good, though even though its set to long its
nowhere near 7 seconds ;D

>

btw.. my unit brews off 9grams max.. how much would you 'genererally'
expect to be able to get from that?


                      
Date: 16 Aug 2007 00:33:30
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> Danny wrote:
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>
>>>> ok thanks Ill give it a shot!
>>>>
>>>> and youre right the strem does lighten...
>>>>
>>>> ok back to making experiments..
>>>>
>>>> oh.. btw.. what temperature, should I expect the coffee to be _in_
>>>> the cup after its brewed?
>>
>> Depends - if you start with preheated cups you shouldn't lose much
>> heat, but the way to check it is to place a thermometer into the side
>> of a polystyrene cup and pull a blank shot - see what temp you are
>> getting from the machine.
>
> and it should be?
>
> btw I think have to do this in rinse mode since its automatic nature
> wont let it shoot a blank ;)
>
>
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> btw.. the cva 620 has something it calles 'prebrewing' where it
>>> moisturizes the coffee for a few seconds, before putting the water
>>> through.. whats your opinion on that sort of thing?
>>
>> Preinfusion, as it's rightly called, is a good thing - wetting the
>> cake with lower pressure water for 7-9 seconds before the extraction
>> proper occurs. This reduces the chances of chanelling.
>>
>
> ok makes sense/sounds good, though even though its set to long its
> nowhere near 7 seconds ;D
>
>>
>
> btw.. my unit brews off 9grams max.. how much would you 'genererally'
> expect to be able to get from that?


rinse- > temperature in cup 70 celcius

espresso - > 65 celcius in cup



when brewing the espresso it takes approx 15 seconds, and it only just
goes light before it stops...

so i guess that means i need to grind it finer?


          
Date: 14 Aug 2007 12:27:57
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 11:57:46 -0500, pltrgyst <usenet@xhost.org > wrote:


>As to what I mean by "good", I mean acceptable -- the espresso my Jura
>produces is better than what is served at any restaurant that I
>frequent, or at any place local that I can get to easily, and as good
>as that served at Misha's. Plus at home I have a choice of beans from
>a broader range of roasts than Misha's offers.
>
>-- Larry

Your bona fides are impressive, Larry. But, where coffee is concerned,
I probably draw a bigger distinction between "good" and "acceptable"
than you do. I order coffee at restaurants very rarely so as to avoid
the inevitable disappointment.

I am sure you would find Intelly's espresso better at their own shops
than at their restaurant wholesale customers. But, better days may be
ahead in Chicago. Here is a critic taking a restaurant to task for
letting him down on the coffee:
http://www.suntimes.com/restaurants/reviews/493727,WKP-News-zealous03.restaurantreviews
Marshall


         
Date: 14 Aug 2007 08:34:23
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 06:30:39 -0700, Marshall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>Just because two opinions are both subjective does not mean they are
>equally valid, especially when one is based on more limited
>experience.
>
>Marshall

That sounded more arrogant than I intended. I'm just reflecting the
fact that relatively few people (including most home espresso makers)
have had truly great espresso and that they tend to be startled by how
good it is when it is properly made. When this finally happens it
leads to the form of dementia known as coffee fanaticism from which
many of us suffer.

Marshall


          
Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:35:39
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Marshall wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 06:30:39 -0700, Marshall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Just because two opinions are both subjective does not mean they are
>> equally valid, especially when one is based on more limited
>> experience.
>>
>> Marshall
>
> That sounded more arrogant than I intended. I'm just reflecting the
> fact that relatively few people (including most home espresso makers)
> have had truly great espresso and that they tend to be startled by how
> good it is when it is properly made. When this finally happens it
> leads to the form of dementia known as coffee fanaticism from which
> many of us suffer.
>
> Marshall


LOL


        
Date: 14 Aug 2007 07:34:40
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
pltrgyst wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 17:12:05 -0700, Marshall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> .... None of the current superauto consumer models, built-in or
>> otherwise, makes a good espresso.....
>
> That all depends on your definition of the subjective term "good."
>
> My Jura makes what is to me a "good" espresso. I can make better
> espresso with my Gaggia Classic, but it takes a lot more work and mess
> for a marginal improvement that almost no one can discern. And my wife
> can't (or won't) cope with the Gaggia.
>
> I agree that that's all it can do -- it can't make an acceptable
> coffee, for example. And it takes four cycles and too many button
> pushes to make an acceptable Americano. But the espresso is quite
> decent.
>
> -- Larry
>


In your opinion, whats the problem with the 'superautos'? in my mind
theres no reason why you should not be able to create one that makes
equally good coffee?


         
Date: 14 Aug 2007 10:06:45
From: Danny
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:

> In your opinion, whats the problem with the 'superautos'? in my mind
> theres no reason why you should not be able to create one that makes
> equally good coffee?

It depends what your expectations are...

Superauto's and traditional machines can both make good espresso.

Differences (imho)-

Traditional machine/grinder combo - operator (barista) ensures that
grind, dose, tamp etc are correct, by trial (and error), and that
machine is at correct temperature for either brewing/steaming, and has
warmed up thoroughly. Barista ensures machine is thoroughly cleaned
between uses so as to avoid stale coffee residues contaminating brew
path etc. Skill of barista determines whether equipment produces
brilliant, bad or indifferent shot, (along with good bean selection).

Superauto - technician sets the paramaters, operator needs no previous
skill and pushes the buttons. If machine goes out of adjustment
technician returns and services machine. Some machines allow basic
adjustment by operator (ie grind) but most operators aren't trained to
do this. Machine tells you when to clean it (or not). Machine can
sometimes produce acceptable shot (depending on last technician's visit).

The commercial world of superauto's is improving, and this will
eventually trickle down to domestic machines.

In my town, I am virtually the only user of a traditional commercial
espresso machine (whether pump or lever). Every other outlet has a
superauto and they *all* produce terrible coffee, but no-one cares,
except for my customers.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



          
Date: 14 Aug 2007 22:42:45
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Danny wrote:
> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>
>> In your opinion, whats the problem with the 'superautos'? in my mind
>> theres no reason why you should not be able to create one that makes
>> equally good coffee?
>
> It depends what your expectations are...
>
> Superauto's and traditional machines can both make good espresso.
>
> Differences (imho)-
>
> Traditional machine/grinder combo - operator (barista) ensures that
> grind, dose, tamp etc are correct, by trial (and error), and that
> machine is at correct temperature for either brewing/steaming, and has
> warmed up thoroughly. Barista ensures machine is thoroughly cleaned
> between uses so as to avoid stale coffee residues contaminating brew
> path etc. Skill of barista determines whether equipment produces
> brilliant, bad or indifferent shot, (along with good bean selection).
>
> Superauto - technician sets the paramaters, operator needs no previous
> skill and pushes the buttons. If machine goes out of adjustment
> technician returns and services machine. Some machines allow basic
> adjustment by operator (ie grind) but most operators aren't trained to
> do this. Machine tells you when to clean it (or not). Machine can
> sometimes produce acceptable shot (depending on last technician's visit).
>
> The commercial world of superauto's is improving, and this will
> eventually trickle down to domestic machines.
>
> In my town, I am virtually the only user of a traditional commercial
> espresso machine (whether pump or lever). Every other outlet has a
> superauto and they *all* produce terrible coffee, but no-one cares,
> except for my customers.
>
>


I see your point... but Im not at the moment at least 'too lazy' to do
it the 'real way'

So my question is, more to the point... "what is the best home built-in
unit' ? (superauto or not, but preferably superauto)

The miele cva 620, which is actually a saeco..

Other options I know of are Siemens and ATAG


and thanks for all the good input..

btw. has any of you tasted, and in case what is your verdict of Kopi Luwak?


           
Date: 14 Aug 2007 23:57:19
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Jacobsen?=
Subject: Re: built in coffeee brewer
Søren Jacobsen wrote:
> Danny wrote:
>> Søren Jacobsen wrote:
>>
>>> In your opinion, whats the problem with the 'superautos'? in my mind
>>> theres no reason why you should not be able to create one that makes
>>> equally good coffee?
>>
>> It depends what your expectations are...
>>
>> Superauto's and traditional machines can both make good espresso.
>>
>> Differences (imho)-
>>
>> Traditional machine/grinder combo - operator (barista) ensures that
>> grind, dose, tamp etc are correct, by trial (and error), and that
>> machine is at correct temperature for either brewing/steaming, and has
>> warmed up thoroughly. Barista ensures machine is thoroughly cleaned
>> between uses so as to avoid stale coffee residues contaminating brew
>> path etc. Skill of barista determines whether equipment produces
>> brilliant, bad or indifferent shot, (along with good bean selection).
>>
>> Superauto - technician sets the paramaters, operator needs no previous
>> skill and pushes the buttons. If machine goes out of adjustment
>> technician returns and services machine. Some machines allow basic
>> adjustment by operator (ie grind) but most operators aren't trained to
>> do this. Machine tells you when to clean it (or not). Machine can
>> sometimes produce acceptable shot (depending on last technician's visit).
>>
>> The commercial world of superauto's is improving, and this will
>> eventually trickle down to domestic machines.
>>
>> In my town, I am virtually the only user of a traditional commercial
>> espresso machine (whether pump or lever). Every other outlet has a
>> superauto and they *all* produce terrible coffee, but no-one cares,
>> except for my customers.
>>
>>
>
>
> I see your point... but Im not at the moment at least 'too lazy' to do
> it the 'real way'
>
> So my question is, more to the point... "what is the best home built-in
> unit' ? (superauto or not, but preferably superauto)
>
> The miele cva 620, which is actually a saeco..
>
> Other options I know of are Siemens and ATAG
>
>
> and thanks for all the good input..
>
> btw. has any of you tasted, and in case what is your verdict of Kopi Luwak?




I doubt this model is available in my country, but it looks like it
provides what Im after... still Id really want to try it before I bought
it..

http://ww2.dacor.com/products/product_page.asp?ID=CM24P1