Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

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Date: 17 Jun 2006 20:35:50
From: nimbus
Subject: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
they were training (???).

Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?

I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
(clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
not).

My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.

-nimbus

Date: 17 Jun 2006 22:15:15
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1150601750.632019.6060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
> I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
> they were training (???).
>
> Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
>
> I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
> think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
> (clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
> not).
>
> My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
>
> -nimbus
>

You are absolutely right. It is important however that the shop use an
laboratory balance that measures in nanograms. Don't trust your morning fix
to a place that only goes down to mere ounces.

Date: 18 Jun 2006 08:32:10
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com > wrote:

>I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
>I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
>they were training (???).
>
>Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
>
What about the other side of this? Can great shots be pulled
consistantly without a scale if the barrista is trained, experienced,
and capable?

Not meaning to be insulting, but are you experienced and knowledgeable
enough to be able to watch the process and find other areas where they
were either lacking in accuracy or omitting factors in the process
that could have been more important than nano-tamping accuracy? Hw old
were the beans in the hopper? How long did the grinds sit in the
doser? Etc.?

The point is that tamping is just one factor. It has been shown to be
of relatively little importance when this level of accuracy is
concerned. Taht is, you will probably never know the difference
between a 28 pound and a 29 pound tamp. Dose and distribution have a
_FAR_ greater affect on shot quality. And let's not forget grind. Were
they using a Cumberland Machine Tools ultrasonic, non-contact dry
particle distributor (it has to be model CF-28 since the 27 had static
problems with coffee).

No, a scale is not necessary but does make a good training aid for the
first few days for new barristas-in-training, and for a "check up"
once in a while for others.

>I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
>think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
>
Get a scale and do everything the same, but tamp at 15, 20, 25, 30,
35, 40, 45, and 50 pounds and see what effect it has. What I think you
will find is that it has less of an effect than you think within about
a +/-5 pound range.. depending on the grind you use. A VERY fine grind
does require a light, leveling tamp, but this only works with certain
blends and roasts. A more coarse grind can handle a very wide range of
tamping force up to and beyond 50 pounds with little change in the
shot. IMO, it is far more important to vary the grind to the beans,
roast, conditions, and palate than to be that accurate with the tamp.

>(clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
>not).

I agree. Since the majority of barristas in the U.S. work for
Starbucks where tamping is not an issue, and since they all use
super-auto machines mow and never touch the coffee, tamping for a
majority of U.S. Barristas do not have tamping down or may not even
know what it is!

>My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
>
Or a sign that the Barristas are unskilled and it is the coffee shop
equivalent of the cash registers at MacDonalds.

QUIZ:
1) How many shops in Italy use a tamping scale?
2) What percentage of shops in Italy make drinkable espresso?
3) How many shops in the U.S. use a tamping scale?
2) What percentage of shops in the U.S. make drinkable espresso?

ANSWERS:
1) probably none
2) nearly all
3) some
4) very, very few

Wanna discuss backflushing? ;-)

Randy "sounding a bit pissy this AM, but not meaning to" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 17 Jun 2006 23:20:01
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Date: 19 Jun 2006 17:20:02
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"Johnny" wrote in message
>
> "nimbus" wrote in message

>> I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
>> I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
>> they were training (???).
>>
>> Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
>>
>
> Martin Diedrich and all his staff do at his new cafe Kéan Coffee in
> Newport
> Beach. Don't recall what kind of scale it was, looked like a regular
> electronic scale to me. I do recall that 40 pounds was the aim for each
> and
> every tamp.
>
I've heard it said and I'm sure it's true that ; some pumps, produce a force
of 9.25 bar, [1]

This translates to about 130 psi at the big bang, so it matters squat, if
someone postures in the 'LTHMIB' (Light Tamp Hardly Meaure It Brigade) or
one flounces in the Anti-LTHMIB. Although the latter is best for members of
the Split Tamp Brigade IMHO.

This confirms there may be other factors involved, when there are different
pour results, from constant scaled tamps.

[1] In the interests of longevity, I haven't done 100 blind tests on this -
it's all hearsay.

Bertie

Date: 19 Jun 2006 11:33:07
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:4fo15lF1jmom3U1@individual.net...
>
> "Johnny" wrote in message
> >
> > "nimbus" wrote in message
>
> >> I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
> >> I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
> >> they were training (???).
> >>
> >> Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
> >>
> >
> > Martin Diedrich and all his staff do at his new cafe Kéan Coffee in
> > Newport
> > Beach. Don't recall what kind of scale it was, looked like a regular
> > electronic scale to me. I do recall that 40 pounds was the aim for each
> > and
> > every tamp.
> >
> I've heard it said and I'm sure it's true that ; some pumps, produce a
force
> of 9.25 bar, [1]
>
> This translates to about 130 psi at the big bang, so it matters squat, if
> someone postures in the 'LTHMIB' (Light Tamp Hardly Meaure It Brigade) or
> one flounces in the Anti-LTHMIB. Although the latter is best for members
of
> the Split Tamp Brigade IMHO.

Ya know I really don't care one way or the other on the tamp debate but
comparing tamp pressure to pump pressure is bogus logic.
The pump pressure has no bearing on how well a tamp may or may not
distribute or pack or whatever to the grounds in the puck. That is a
non-sequitur, not even in the same ball-park.

>
> This confirms there may be other factors involved, when there are
different
> pour results, from constant scaled tamps.

Yes there are other factors involved but your logic does NOT confirm this.

Date: 19 Jun 2006 23:33:50
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"Johnny" > wrote in message>
> "Bertie Doe" wrote in message
>>
>> "Johnny" wrote in message
>> >
> force
>> of 9.25 bar, [1]
>>
>> This translates to about 130 psi at the big bang, so it matters squat, if
>> someone postures in the 'LTHMIB' (Light Tamp Hardly Meaure It Brigade) or
>> one flounces in the Anti-LTHMIB. Although the latter is best for members
> of
>> the Split Tamp Brigade IMHO.
>
> Ya know I really don't care one way or the other on the tamp debate but
> comparing tamp pressure to pump pressure is bogus logic.
> The pump pressure has no bearing on how well a tamp may or may not
> distribute or pack or whatever to the grounds in the puck. That is a
> non-sequitur, not even in the same ball-park.
>
If you're referring to the post saturation point, then I would agree with
you. I'm talking about the 'beginning' of the shot, when the water first
impacts the pack.
Perhaps post 6 here http://tinyurl.com/padop is clearer.

Bertie

Date: 19 Jun 2006 18:03:47
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:4fon2hF1k1m6rU1@individual.net...
>
> "Johnny" > wrote in message>
> > "Bertie Doe" wrote in message
> >>
> >> "Johnny" wrote in message
> >> >
> > force
> >> of 9.25 bar, [1]
> >>
> >> This translates to about 130 psi at the big bang, so it matters squat,
if
> >> someone postures in the 'LTHMIB' (Light Tamp Hardly Meaure It Brigade)
or
> >> one flounces in the Anti-LTHMIB. Although the latter is best for
members
> > of
> >> the Split Tamp Brigade IMHO.
> >
> > Ya know I really don't care one way or the other on the tamp debate but
> > comparing tamp pressure to pump pressure is bogus logic.
> > The pump pressure has no bearing on how well a tamp may or may not
> > distribute or pack or whatever to the grounds in the puck. That is a
> > non-sequitur, not even in the same ball-park.
> >
> If you're referring to the post saturation point, then I would agree with
> you. I'm talking about the 'beginning' of the shot, when the water first
> impacts the pack.
> Perhaps post 6 here http://tinyurl.com/padop is clearer.

where one thing its says in that very post is:
"I think tamp differences will have more of an effect on the extraction"

which doesn't seem to support "it matters squat...."

You can't knock split tamp out of the argument using that logic.
For one thing no amount of water pressure _after_ the puck is packed will
allow the "split tamp... more grounds into the puck" (if indeed this is
possible, that's a whole other issue) _before_ the water gets there. Not
the same ballpark.

The pump pressure using the compacted puck as a hydraulic piston _may
_indeed compact the puck more. And how well or how much it does that _may_
still depend on the dry tamp weight since that is part of what forms the
compacted mass that acts as a hydraulic piston.
But that comparitively overwhelming pressure does not, in and of itself,
throw out the light/medium/heavy/split tamp theories. And certainly has zero
bearing on dosage using split tamp.

Date: 21 Jun 2006 01:25:31
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Date: 20 Jun 2006 00:46:50
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Date: 20 Jun 2006 09:04:38
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"D. Ross" wrote in message

>

Date: 20 Jun 2006 23:25:07
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Date: 21 Jun 2006 10:40:03
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"D. Ross" wrote in message
>

Date: 17 Jun 2006 22:52:53
From: nimbus
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Ken ,

Dude, you are so cool with a comment like that. Your nano-babes must be
in heaven right now, just waiting for your next brilliant statement. I
was asking a serous question.

Ken Fox wrote:
> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150601750.632019.6060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
> > I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
> > they were training (???).
> >
> > Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
> >
> > I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
> > think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
> > (clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
> > not).
> >
> > My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
> >
> > -nimbus
> >
>
> You are absolutely right. It is important however that the shop use an
> laboratory balance that measures in nanograms. Don't trust your morning fix
> to a place that only goes down to mere ounces.

Date: 18 Jun 2006 14:35:52
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

nimbus wrote:
> Ken ,
>
> Dude, you are so cool with a comment like that. Your nano-babes must be
> in heaven right now, just waiting for your next brilliant statement. I
> was asking a serous question.
>

At least Ken only replied once, and didn't top post.

To answer your question, we don't use a scale. Actually, once the
basics are learnt, my staff soon develop a feel for the "compression"
of the puck, and tamp to this measure. We used to have to say to each
other whether we were tamping lighter or harder, to take account of
the grind in the doser (only a max of 6 doses on autofill which we
don't start using until the grind is stable each day, but we work
outside and things change often), but now we can all feel the
compression instead.

--
Regards,
Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
Gold blend)
swap Z for above characters in email address to reply

Date: 18 Jun 2006 11:47:52
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 14:35:52 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

>nimbus wrote:
>> Ken ,
>>
>> Dude, you are so cool with a comment like that. Your nano-babes must be
>> in heaven right now, just waiting for your next brilliant statement. I
>> was asking a serous question.
>>
>
>At least Ken only replied once, and didn't top post.
>
>To answer your question, we don't use a scale. Actually, once the
>basics are learnt, my staff soon develop a feel for the "compression"
>of the puck, and tamp to this measure. We used to have to say to each
>other whether we were tamping lighter or harder, to take account of
>the grind in the doser (only a max of 6 doses on autofill which we
>don't start using until the grind is stable each day, but we work
>outside and things change often), but now we can all feel the
>compression instead.

I don't use a scale either. My staff is trained to focus on shot color
and timing.

With fresh-roasted coffee and a good stepless grinder, it isn't rocket
science to produce consistent good shots.

North Sulivan

Date: 18 Jun 2006 08:43:55
From: Brian
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Danny wrote:
> At least Ken only replied once, and didn't top post.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>--
>Regards,
>Danny
>
>http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
>http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
>Gold blend)
>swap Z for above characters in email address to reply

Danny -

One would think a netiquette stickler such as yourself would
know that a sig should be limited to 4 lines.

Date: 18 Jun 2006 20:18:57
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Brian wrote:

> Danny -
>
> One would think a netiquette stickler such as yourself would
> know that a sig should be limited to 4 lines.
>

I'm not a netiquette stickler, but someone who posts the same reply 3
times in the same minute doesn't understand usenet propogation, and we
all know the top vs bottom posting arguments. I'm a believer in
reading the post, snipping where necessary and posting through the
post /bottom as appropriate. I wasn't aware of any netiquette rules
regarding signature, and anyway, does that include my regards, Danny
line? The actual sig (url info) always was 4 lines, but a recent
netscape reinstall has meant that one line now wraps. Anyway, since
you point it out, and since I do believe in usenet etiquette, I've
amended it just for you.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 18 Jun 2006 16:54:57
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"Brian" <Brian@no_spam.invalid > wrote in message
news:d8ra92h51j72d1jkv3b21jn8sq09fqr47s@4ax.com...
> Danny wrote:
>> At least Ken only replied once, and didn't top post.
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Regards,
>>Danny
>>
>>http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>>http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
>>http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
>>Gold blend)
>>swap Z for above characters in email address to reply
>
>
> Danny -
>
> One would think a netiquette stickler such as yourself would
> know that a sig should be limited to 4 lines.
>
That wasn't me Danny !!

BMC

Date: 17 Jun 2006 22:52:50
From: nimbus
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Date: 17 Jun 2006 22:52:47
From: nimbus
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Date: 18 Jun 2006 08:28:02
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1150609967.380417.4000@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Ken ,
>
> Dude, you are so cool with a comment like that. Your nano-babes must be
> in heaven right now, just waiting for your next brilliant statement. I
> was asking a serous question.

"Dude," why not go into a cafe with an open mind and decide whether or not
you think the coffee is any good? Can they do it well time after time, day
after day? There are about 35 things I can think of that are more important
in producing good coffee than measuring tamping pressure on a scale. You
can go to the ones with scales and I'll go to the ones that make great
shots.

ken

>
> Ken Fox wrote:
>> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1150601750.632019.6060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> > I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
>> > I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
>> > they were training (???).
>> >
>> > Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
>> >
>> > I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
>> > think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
>> > (clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
>> > not).
>> >
>> > My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
>> >
>> > -nimbus
>> >
>>
>> You are absolutely right. It is important however that the shop use an
>> laboratory balance that measures in nanograms. Don't trust your morning
>> fix
>> to a place that only goes down to mere ounces.
>

Date: 19 Jun 2006 07:57:00
From: J. Clarke
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Ken Fox wrote:

> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150609967.380417.4000@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> Ken ,
>>
>> Dude, you are so cool with a comment like that. Your nano-babes must be
>> in heaven right now, just waiting for your next brilliant statement. I
>> was asking a serous question.
>
> "Dude," why not go into a cafe with an open mind and decide whether or not
> you think the coffee is any good? Can they do it well time after time,
> day
> after day? There are about 35 things I can think of that are more
> important
> in producing good coffee than measuring tamping pressure on a scale. You
> can go to the ones with scales and I'll go to the ones that make great
> shots.

FWIW, I tried tamping on a scale. Turned out that by doing so I could get
one shot to go 15 seconds and the next 35 and the one after that 28 with
the same tamping pressure. From that I concluded that there was something
more critical to getting a good tamp than the pressure applied.

> ken
>
>
>
>>
>> Ken Fox wrote:
>>> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1150601750.632019.6060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>> > I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
>>> > I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
>>> > they were training (???).
>>> >
>>> > Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
>>> >
>>> > I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
>>> > think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
>>> > (clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
>>> > not).
>>> >
>>> > My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
>>> >
>>> > -nimbus
>>> >
>>>
>>> You are absolutely right. It is important however that the shop use an
>>> laboratory balance that measures in nanograms. Don't trust your morning
>>> fix
>>> to a place that only goes down to mere ounces.
>>

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Date: 19 Jun 2006 08:35:29
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

J. Clarke wrote:
> FWIW, I tried tamping on a scale. Turned out that by doing so I could get
> one shot to go 15 seconds and the next 35 and the one after that 28 with
> the same tamping pressure. From that I concluded that there was something
> more critical to getting a good tamp than the pressure applied.

Provided the grinder setting and beans remain constant, the amount and
distribution can cause those changes. Were you measuring the coffee
with a scale accurate to a gram or less? Was the distribution in the
portafilter consistent?

--
St. John
"A power so great, it can only be used for Good or Evil!"
-Firesign Theatre, "The Giant Rat of Sumatra"

Date: 19 Jun 2006 12:52:45
From: J. Clarke
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

St. John Smythe wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> FWIW, I tried tamping on a scale. Turned out that by doing so I could
>> get one shot to go 15 seconds and the next 35 and the one after that 28
>> with
>> the same tamping pressure. From that I concluded that there was
>> something more critical to getting a good tamp than the pressure applied.
>
> Provided the grinder setting and beans remain constant, the amount and
> distribution can cause those changes. Were you measuring the coffee
> with a scale accurate to a gram or less?

No to the first, and I'm not sure how one would tell in the second.

> Was the distribution in the
> portafilter consistent?
>

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Date: 20 Jun 2006 09:40:54
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

> There are about 35 things I can think of that are more important in
> producing good coffee than measuring tamping pressure on a scale. You can
> go to the ones with scales and I'll go to the ones that make great shots.
>
> ken

on home barista Nick Cho has his 50 points that affect espresso listed there
somewhere.

If I was cleverer I would paste a link...

I think in the alt.c archives there is already one

Brent

Date: 21 Jun 2006 10:58:10
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4fl65aF1jp0m8U1@individual.net...
<snip/ >
>You can go to the ones with scales and I'll go to the ones that make great
> shots.
>
> ken

Intersecting at Kean coffee...

Date: 18 Jun 2006 19:11:24
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

On 17 Jun 2006 20:35:50 -0700, "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com > wrote:

>My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.

the scale at broadway was probably for training.

i think the overall shot quality is a better indicator of dedication
to quality. i've been in too many places where the staff was "trained
by the numbers" in terms of tamping, shot volume, shot time, etc, and
they *still* produce poor to mediocre espresso. fortunately,
intelligentsia isn't one of those places, and i know they are open to
suggestions which improve the quality of their products.

ellie made me a very nice shot at randolph st. a few weeks back.

--barry

Date: 18 Jun 2006 11:58:15
From: nimbus
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Hi,

I guess I should've made it more clean initially that I'm looking for a
way to both improve shot quality and to give the appearance of a
dedication to quality.

I agree with much of what has been said here. Yes, ultimitely (ken?) it
is the final result that matters. If you have all the bells and
whistles and you end up with a crummy shot, then the customer shold go
elsewhere. The coffee shot has failed the customer.

Much of what goes into ending up with a quality shot is "behind the
scenes" (i.e. the customer). You have water quality, bean quality, the
blend you use, the freshness of the bean, the grind, the cleanliness of
the grinder and espresso machine, the type of grinder and espresso
machine, the timing of the process, etc etc (I'm not trying to list
everything here, though I doubt there are really 35 things more
important than the tamp.

But what is not "behnd the scenes" is often the tamp. A good barista
can probably hit their desired tamp within 2 or 3 PSI, but some people
tend to gradually (over days or weeks) trend towards too hard or soft a
tamp. I figure, because thecustomer cannot see how old your beans are,
or see your cleaning regimen, or see your water supply, the shop owner
might as well let them know you are doing what you can (for quality) in
a visual display. Yeah, it is sort of just fluff - marketing, but it
does help prevent a cocky know-it-all barista from making one mistake.

Training is critical. No doubt there. I guess the point of a scale is
sort of a humbleness, saying, hey we're taking one more potential
variable out of the equation. In most fields, whether you're a
brewmaster, a physicist, or a coffee roaster, a willingness to keep
learning and to not pretend that you're above making mistakes is
important. Yeah, a real professional is "always in training" at some
level.

For me at least, anytime I can eliminate a potential problem, and look
good to the customers at the same time.

Cheers, and apologies for the rambling.

-nimbus
Randy G. wrote:
> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
> >I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
> >they were training (???).
> >
> >Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
> >
> What about the other side of this? Can great shots be pulled
> consistantly without a scale if the barrista is trained, experienced,
> and capable?
>
> Not meaning to be insulting, but are you experienced and knowledgeable
> enough to be able to watch the process and find other areas where they
> were either lacking in accuracy or omitting factors in the process
> that could have been more important than nano-tamping accuracy? Hw old
> were the beans in the hopper? How long did the grinds sit in the
> doser? Etc.?
>
> The point is that tamping is just one factor. It has been shown to be
> of relatively little importance when this level of accuracy is
> concerned. Taht is, you will probably never know the difference
> between a 28 pound and a 29 pound tamp. Dose and distribution have a
> _FAR_ greater affect on shot quality. And let's not forget grind. Were
> they using a Cumberland Machine Tools ultrasonic, non-contact dry
> particle distributor (it has to be model CF-28 since the 27 had static
> problems with coffee).
>
> No, a scale is not necessary but does make a good training aid for the
> first few days for new barristas-in-training, and for a "check up"
> once in a while for others.
>
> >I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
> >think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
> >
> Get a scale and do everything the same, but tamp at 15, 20, 25, 30,
> 35, 40, 45, and 50 pounds and see what effect it has. What I think you
> will find is that it has less of an effect than you think within about
> a +/-5 pound range.. depending on the grind you use. A VERY fine grind
> does require a light, leveling tamp, but this only works with certain
> blends and roasts. A more coarse grind can handle a very wide range of
> tamping force up to and beyond 50 pounds with little change in the
> shot. IMO, it is far more important to vary the grind to the beans,
> roast, conditions, and palate than to be that accurate with the tamp.
>
> >(clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
> >not).
>
> I agree. Since the majority of barristas in the U.S. work for
> Starbucks where tamping is not an issue, and since they all use
> super-auto machines mow and never touch the coffee, tamping for a
> majority of U.S. Barristas do not have tamping down or may not even
> know what it is!
>
> >My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
> >
> Or a sign that the Barristas are unskilled and it is the coffee shop
> equivalent of the cash registers at MacDonalds.
>
> QUIZ:
> 1) How many shops in Italy use a tamping scale?
> 2) What percentage of shops in Italy make drinkable espresso?
> 3) How many shops in the U.S. use a tamping scale?
> 2) What percentage of shops in the U.S. make drinkable espresso?
>
> ANSWERS:
> 1) probably none
> 2) nearly all
> 3) some
> 4) very, very few
>
>
> Wanna discuss backflushing? ;-)
>
> Randy "sounding a bit pissy this AM, but not meaning to" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 18 Jun 2006 20:29:43
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

nimbus wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I guess I should've made it more clean initially that I'm looking for a
> way to both improve shot quality and to give the appearance of a
> dedication to quality.

Just do the job professionally and you will be seen to be dedicated.
Two things - locate the machine so it faces the customer, and be
professional in your interaction with the customer.

I installed my machine on the back wall, facing the customer. They
can then see the entire process. I dislike hiding behind screens. I
want the customer to see the action. Grinding, tamping and pulling
the levers. I also want them to see the clean wands, purged before
and after every use and wiped clean each time. I want them to hear
the grinder running often, not once every hour or so. I want them to
see me pre-heating espresso demitasses before use.

I want my staff to be vigilant to dirty tables or counter etc, and to
serve people promptly and with a smile when they approach. I dislike
them holding conversations with other people whilst attending to a
customer, and I like them to remember individual customer preferences
on subsequent visits - something we are proud of, and customers often
remark on. Paying a return visit and having the staff remember that
you liked a strong latte, or that you take two sugars in your tea
creates a good impression in the customers' mind.

You won't need the gimmick of a tamp scale, or even notice that it
makes little, if any, difference to shot quality.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 18 Jun 2006 14:21:07
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

The bottom line is that there are a whole lot of variables in making
espresso and even so, it is possible to make very good espresso in different
ways.

There are variables that you cannot change if you want to make good shots;
the coffee must be fresh, must be well roasted, the beans that were roasted
need to be of decent quality, the espresso equipment needs to be clean, the
staff needs to be trained, the grinder needs to be set in a way that is
appropriate to the dosing and tamping used, the coffee must be distributed
well in the PF basket, and the operator needs to know the limitations of his
or her equipment and work within them. That isn't 35 but I think you COULD
come up with 35 things.

Then there are the variables that are variables but not every competent
barista agrees on, such as tamping force, absolute dose of coffee in a
portafilter, distribution technique, whether they like Monsooned Malabar or
not, etc. etc. etc.

Getting back to tamping force; consistency is what matters, and the
adjustment of the grinder to match the force used. For me, a very light
tamp, probably on the order of 5lbs (have never measured it) seems to work
just fine and others I respect report similar results. I think a light tamp
like that is very easy to reproduce and since a scale was never part of the
equation, it's not needed.

In the very specific situation of a busy shop with multiple baristas
operating the same equipment and using the same grinder(s), a more
standardized approach is probably needed unless the baristas can adjust in a
different way, e.g. perhaps varying the dose they use to suit the grind, but
this would probably be very frustrating and not the best option.

ken

Date: 21 Jun 2006 10:07:23
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

daveb wrote:
is there any limit to the BULLSHIT
>
scale tamping is still
> utter bullcrap.

I've used both a scale and a 30 lb clicker for periods of time. Both
were useful for helping me get used to the feel of a consistent tamp
from one shot to the next. I'd agree that there is no consensus on
"correct" pressure because, in all liklihood, it doesn't exist. But
most agree that consistency with certain variables is a good thing, and
that an inconsistent tamp doesn't improve shots.

So if I were advising a newbie at home or training a barista in my
shop, I'd have these pressure guages handy and work them into the
training protocol, at least for a period of time. I'd probably not
line up scales and demand that all baristi use them for every shot.

BTW, Dave, do you ever simply "disagree"? Also, is there a substantive
difference between bullshit and bullcrap, or are they synonymous, and
you use both simply for a stylistic flourish?
Martin

Date: 21 Jun 2006 04:37:05
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

OMG!!! I agree with Ken Fox!
YESSSS!

Dave "betbrynw4b6nik" b
Ken Fox wrote:
> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150609967.380417.4000@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Ken ,
> >
> > Dude, you are so cool with a comment like that. Your nano-babes must be
> > in heaven right now, just waiting for your next brilliant statement. I
> > was asking a serous question.
>
> "Dude," why not go into a cafe with an open mind and decide whether or not
> you think the coffee is any good? Can they do it well time after time, day
> after day? There are about 35 things I can think of that are more important
> in producing good coffee than measuring tamping pressure on a scale. You
> can go to the ones with scales and I'll go to the ones that make great
> shots.
>
> ken
>
>
>
> >
> > Ken Fox wrote:
> >> "nimbus" <couzin@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1150601750.632019.6060@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >> > I've only seen it at one place. Intelligentsia on Broadway in Chicago.
> >> > I thought "cool," but I don't know if that is standard for them, or if
> >> > they were training (???).
> >> >
> >> > Do many places do this? What kind of scales do they use?
> >> >
> >> > I think it says a lot. A lot of smug people refuse to learn more, and
> >> > think they are tamping at a consistent PSI, but you know it isn't so.
> >> > (clearly some baristas DO have it down, but the majority in the US do
> >> > not).
> >> >
> >> > My take is that this method is a statement on dedication to quality.
> >> >
> >> > -nimbus
> >> >
> >>
> >> You are absolutely right. It is important however that the shop use an
> >> laboratory balance that measures in nanograms. Don't trust your morning
> >> fix
> >> to a place that only goes down to mere ounces.
> >

Date: 21 Jun 2006 04:34:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Man oh Man! is there any limit to the BULLSHIT re production of a good
espresso shot??

I had to agree with Ken Fox' sarcasm! What CUSTOMER would appreciate
this technique? "Oh, let's go to the Coffee Shack -- they tamp with a
scale!!"

Puhleeeze!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THe USBC championships? No scales!

Italy? [noted as being the home of espresso] no scales! Mostly just
the grinder's front mounted "tamper" .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the things customers DO remember are exactly the things Danny mentions.

And even if you are making espresso at home, scale tamping is still
utter bullcrap. But you are welcome to go get the Versatoy $300
tamping press.

Now -- back to backflushing. "Alice! More JoeGlo!"

Dave " dsftre54vwbshhv0ks" b

Danny wrote:
> nimbus wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I guess I should've made it more clean initially that I'm looking for a
> > way to both improve shot quality and to give the appearance of a
> > dedication to quality.
>
> Just do the job professionally and you will be seen to be dedicated.
> Two things - locate the machine so it faces the customer, and be
> professional in your interaction with the customer.
>
> I installed my machine on the back wall, facing the customer. They
> can then see the entire process. I dislike hiding behind screens. I
> want the customer to see the action. Grinding, tamping and pulling
> the levers. I also want them to see the clean wands, purged before
> and after every use and wiped clean each time. I want them to hear
> the grinder running often, not once every hour or so. I want them to
> see me pre-heating espresso demitasses before use.
>
> I want my staff to be vigilant to dirty tables or counter etc, and to
> serve people promptly and with a smile when they approach. I dislike
> them holding conversations with other people whilst attending to a
> customer, and I like them to remember individual customer preferences
> on subsequent visits - something we are proud of, and customers often
> remark on. Paying a return visit and having the staff remember that
> you liked a strong latte, or that you take two sugars in your tea
> creates a good impression in the customers' mind.
>
> You won't need the gimmick of a tamp scale, or even notice that it
> makes little, if any, difference to shot quality.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 21 Jun 2006 14:50:56
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Will
Thank you for the compliment on my 'product'. sorry for the tone of
the interaction. I will not accept being muzzled and I will not accept
being called names. sorry, but that is the way it is.

I have a certain limit to the amount of "bullcrap" I can read as well.
I view my knowledge base as that of a pro, not a hobbyist. and my toll
free line is Always open to those with questions, and problems relating
to ANYTHING espresso and even to the flamers -- who BTW, Will, never
call.

rg pulling out old posts from a voer a year ago is as specious as
blaming our last president for things happening today.

All so serious. :-(

dave"saasetgv5463w4c" b
www.hitechespresso.com

---

Date: 21 Jun 2006 12:36:38
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

I've found Randy's site quite helpful and I appreciate the work he puts
into it. I've seen one of Dave's machines and it appeared to be quite
professionally modified and to work correctly. And Robert has
interesting and useful things to say, as well. Why they feel the need
to rip and tear at each other is beyond me except, perhaps, to strive
for some mythical Caffeinated Alpha Maledom. I wish they would learn
to play nicely together because all have things to say that others will
find helpful and informative. I wish, too, that they would realize how
wearisome their puerile finger-pointing and name-calling antics are to
others.

Will
"The human capacity for otherwise decent people to behave like children
when they feel threatened is nearly boundless."

Heat + Beans wrote:
> daveb wrote:
> is there any limit to the BULLSHIT
> >
> scale tamping is still
> > utter bullcrap.

<snip >

> BTW, Dave, do you ever simply "disagree"? Also, is there a substantive
> difference between bullshit and bullcrap, or are they synonymous, and
> you use both simply for a stylistic flourish?
> Martin

Date: 22 Jun 2006 09:31:45
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Ah yes, but this thread is creating a meeting of the minds!

not agreement, just a meeting :)

one assumes the common ground is they all like coffee!

Brent

> I've found Randy's site quite helpful and I appreciate the work he puts
> into it. I've seen one of Dave's machines and it appeared to be quite
> professionally modified and to work correctly. And Robert has
> interesting and useful things to say, as well. Why they feel the need
> to rip and tear at each other is beyond me except, perhaps, to strive
> for some mythical Caffeinated Alpha Maledom. I wish they would learn
> to play nicely together because all have things to say that others will
> find helpful and informative. I wish, too, that they would realize how
> wearisome their puerile finger-pointing and name-calling antics are to
> others.
>
> Will
> "The human capacity for otherwise decent people to behave like children
> when they feel threatened is nearly boundless."
>
>
> Heat + Beans wrote:
>> daveb wrote:
>> is there any limit to the BULLSHIT
>> >
>> scale tamping is still
>> > utter bullcrap.
>
> <snip>
>
>> BTW, Dave, do you ever simply "disagree"? Also, is there a substantive
>> difference between bullshit and bullcrap, or are they synonymous, and
>> you use both simply for a stylistic flourish?
>> Martin
>

Date: 21 Jun 2006 11:54:06
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

<< BTW, Dave, do you ever simply "disagree"? Also, is there a
substantive
> difference between bullshit and bullcrap, or are they synonymous, and
> you use both simply for a stylistic flourish? >>

Just a flourish, H+B! hehheh!

dave "xdtd5v6yxr56wku8mk" b

Heat + Beans wrote:
> daveb wrote:
> is there any limit to the BULLSHIT
> >
> scale tamping is still
> > utter bullcrap.
>
> I've used both a scale and a 30 lb clicker for periods of time. Both
> were useful for helping me get used to the feel of a consistent tamp
> from one shot to the next. I'd agree that there is no consensus on
> "correct" pressure because, in all liklihood, it doesn't exist. But
> most agree that consistency with certain variables is a good thing, and
> that an inconsistent tamp doesn't improve shots.
>
> So if I were advising a newbie at home or training a barista in my
> shop, I'd have these pressure guages handy and work them into the
> training protocol, at least for a period of time. I'd probably not
> line up scales and demand that all baristi use them for every shot.
>
> BTW, Dave, do you ever simply "disagree"? Also, is there a substantive
> difference between bullshit and bullcrap, or are they synonymous, and
> you use both simply for a stylistic flourish?
> Martin

Date: 15 Jul 2006 23:14:46
From: nimbus
Subject: Re: Any Coffee Shops Tamp on a Scale?

Anyway, this thread digressed into random discussions and flames and
BS, but for the record, yes Intelligentsia does tamp onto a scale (not
just for training purposes). After spending a few hours with Matt R
(who won the US Barista contest, and got #3 in Switzerland this year -
congrats matt if you're reading), I learned that they started at the
Intelli stores just for training purposes and figured "why not keep the
scale there?" It really is one less variable in the multi-faceted
espresso equation. And yes, sometimes new (newer) baristas do work.

That was basically my reasoning also. So I was happy to hear it from a
guy who may not be the top barista in the country, but he did get the
top honors (not everyone competes, of course, and judges make
mistakes). In fact, I believe Intelli baristas got number three and
four also. So I figure they must be doing something right, no???

Cheers.

-nimbus