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Main
Date: 05 Jul 2006 21:12:07
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Well now that I've got a good grinder on the way, I got to thinking
about my Breville. I just got this last week (6/30/2006) at Bed, Bath &
Beyond. So I could take it back.
Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
So I got to thinking, maybe it is the 'crema enhancing' filters? I know
that you only use a pretty light tamp (about 10lbs max) with it or you
end up with nothing good.
So since this thing can go back, I thought I'd research some machines.
Currently looking at the Gaggias. Baby looks very nice and price is
certainly right.
Should I look more? I'm figuring a budget somewhere in the $400 or so
range.
thanks for any suggestions ahead of time in case I forget to thank you
after.
Lloyd
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 03:54:58
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
There isn't a lot of difference between the Rancilio Silvia (RS) & the
different Gaggia's. The RS has a brass boiler of greater capacity, but the
Gaggia's boiler heating element brings the temps up so quickly that boiler
size isn't an issue. The RS & some Gaggia's have 3-way solenoid valves which
may or may not be useful if you do or do not decide that backflushing is
good for your machine. ;)
Some, myself included, would rather not have to deal with the aluminum upper
half of Gaggia's boiler - some believe it corrodes too fast and some have
concerns about the effects of aluminum on the brain. But even though I'm one
of the complainers I still buy & recommend Gaggia's to people who ask (and
to those who don't).
I like the older Gaggia's design (Classic, Baby, Coffee) better than the
square box look of the RS. I also find them easier to work on & replacement
parts are reasonably priced & available.
Now to my recommendation: Get a Classic instead of the Baby. The Classic's
reservoir size is greater & easier to access, it doesn't have that elbow
used by the solenoid valve that ALWAYS gets lost, if you need to tinker with
it the access to the working parts is much better, and finally I just like
the no-nonsense look of the Classic. The Baby is looking a bit dated in my
opinion.
Finally, if you measure espresso by the crema generated get a machine with a
pressurized portafilter & load it with a premium Robusta coffee (is that an
oxymoron?). You'll create a shot as thick as whipped cream that's more or
less drinkable - depends on your tastes.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-5FE1B5.21120705072006@individual.net...
> Well now that I've got a good grinder on the way, I got to thinking
> about my Breville. I just got this last week (6/30/2006) at Bed, Bath &
> Beyond. So I could take it back.
>
> Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
> but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
> pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
>
> So I got to thinking, maybe it is the 'crema enhancing' filters? I know
> that you only use a pretty light tamp (about 10lbs max) with it or you
> end up with nothing good.
>
> So since this thing can go back, I thought I'd research some machines.
>
> Currently looking at the Gaggias. Baby looks very nice and price is
> certainly right.
>
> Should I look more? I'm figuring a budget somewhere in the $400 or so
> range.
>
> thanks for any suggestions ahead of time in case I forget to thank you
> after.
>
> Lloyd
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 10:37:26
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <mQ%qg.3938$cd3.1806@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Gaggia's boiler heating element brings the temps up so quickly that boiler
> size isn't an issue. The RS & some Gaggia's have 3-way solenoid valves which
> may or may not be useful if you do or do not decide that backflushing is
> good for your machine. ;)
>
> Some, myself included, would rather not have to deal with the aluminum upper
> half of Gaggia's boiler - some believe it corrodes too fast and some have
> concerns about the effects of aluminum on the brain. But even though I'm one
> of the complainers I still buy & recommend Gaggia's to people who ask (and
> to those who don't).
>
> I like the older Gaggia's design (Classic, Baby, Coffee) better than the
> square box look of the RS. I also find them easier to work on & replacement
> parts are reasonably priced & available.
>
> Now to my recommendation: Get a Classic instead of the Baby. The Classic's
> reservoir size is greater & easier to access, it doesn't have that elbow
> used by the solenoid valve that ALWAYS gets lost, if you need to tinker with
> it the access to the working parts is much better, and finally I just like
> the no-nonsense look of the Classic. The Baby is looking a bit dated in my
> opinion.
>
> Finally, if you measure espresso by the crema generated get a machine with a
> pressurized portafilter & load it with a premium Robusta coffee (is that an
> oxymoron?). You'll create a shot as thick as whipped cream that's more or
> less drinkable - depends on your tastes.
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
Thanks for the info and suggestions...
As for Aluminum and brain function, well I'm twice retired (Navy in '83,
civilian in 2005) and figure that any damage that might occur will be
after I'm planted! ;-)
Baby vs Classic, nice info. But the price differential has to be taken
into consideration too. At Wholelattalove, the Baby is on clearance at
$349, the Classic is $499. So is not having that elbow and the
possibility of losing it worth $150? I'd have to be convinced.
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| | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 16:32:40
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in
news:lloydparsons-5BCEEE.10372606072006@individual.net:
snipped
>
> Thanks for the info and suggestions...
>
> As for Aluminum and brain function, well I'm twice retired (Navy in
> '83, civilian in 2005) and figure that any damage that might occur
> will be after I'm planted! ;-)
>
> Baby vs Classic, nice info. But the price differential has to be
> taken into consideration too. At Wholelattalove, the Baby is on
> clearance at $349, the Classic is $499. So is not having that elbow
> and the possibility of losing it worth $150? I'd have to be
> convinced.
>
One thing I forgot to mention; think about selling your machine when you're
ready to move up in class (boxing term, not snobbish). The Ranclilio will
return closest to what you paid for it, followed closely by the Classic,
with the Baby running a DISTANT 3rd. In fact Baby's are downright hard to
get rid of period (sad voice of experience)!
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 16:17:22
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
I'm with you Lloyd, twice retarded myself. ;) Any brain damage that hasn't
already occurred from being around toxic chemicals & drinking cheap tequila
isn't worth worrying about.
Considering they're essentially the same machine the Classic isn't worth
$150 more than the Baby except for aesthetics. If you're at all handy with
minor hand tools (multimeter, Dremel, screwdrivers, pliers, etc.) why not
buy a used one on eBay (note: I do sell Gaggia's on eBay but this isn't a
pitch from me - buy from anyone!) Used Baby's sell for $200 & under,
Classics for $300 & under. These are prices for used, not reconditioned,
machines.
Very seldom is anything wrong with these machines; usually a thermal fuse
($5), pump ($50), or various O-rings & clamps. Sometimes they're missing
portafilters ($50), tampers ($9 - $$$), filters ($4 - 7), or various parts
such as water reservoirs, drip tray, reservoir cover, etc., all readily
available. And you've already found the best resource for doing the repairs
yourself - there is a humongous amount of expertise here at alt.coffee, just
ask and you'll be inundated with advice (some actually may be of use).
Best of luck!
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Lloyd Parsons"
<lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-5BCEEE.10372606072006@individual.net...
snipped
> Thanks for the info and suggestions...
>
> As for Aluminum and brain function, well I'm twice retired (Navy in '83,
> civilian in 2005) and figure that any damage that might occur will be
> after I'm planted! ;-)
>
> Baby vs Classic, nice info. But the price differential has to be taken
> into consideration too. At Wholelattalove, the Baby is on clearance at
> $349, the Classic is $499. So is not having that elbow and the
> possibility of losing it worth $150? I'd have to be convinced.
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Date: 05 Jul 2006 22:32:52
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
If you can take the Breville back I'd definitely do it . It's a "starter
machine" so if you can skip that phase and go right to a "keeper" might as
well. You're lucky that you found a.c. and so can skip the steam toy and the
thermoblock. I wasn't so lucky (pre-internet days) and have examples of both
in my basement.
Gaggia Baby a good choice. Rancilio Silvia also good - a suggestion - call
up the online Rancilio vendors ON THE PHONE (1st line, wholelattelove, etc.)
and tell them how much you have to spend ($400) and can they get you a
Silvia for that price - $495 is the minimum ADVERTISED price, not the
minimum selling price. Often they will have "buyer's remorse machine that
has low mileage under the hood, just like your Breville.
I might have missed a thread - what grinder did you get?
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-5FE1B5.21120705072006@individual.net...
> Well now that I've got a good grinder on the way, I got to thinking
> about my Breville. I just got this last week (6/30/2006) at Bed, Bath &
> Beyond. So I could take it back.
>
> Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
> but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
> pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
>
> So I got to thinking, maybe it is the 'crema enhancing' filters? I know
> that you only use a pretty light tamp (about 10lbs max) with it or you
> end up with nothing good.
>
> So since this thing can go back, I thought I'd research some machines.
>
> Currently looking at the Gaggias. Baby looks very nice and price is
> certainly right.
>
> Should I look more? I'm figuring a budget somewhere in the $400 or so
> range.
>
> thanks for any suggestions ahead of time in case I forget to thank you
> after.
>
> Lloyd
|
| | |
Date: 05 Jul 2006 22:15:37
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <RL-dne4gE-XJ6zHZnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> If you can take the Breville back I'd definitely do it . It's a "starter
> machine" so if you can skip that phase and go right to a "keeper" might as
> well. You're lucky that you found a.c. and so can skip the steam toy and the
> thermoblock. I wasn't so lucky (pre-internet days) and have examples of both
> in my basement.
>
>
> Gaggia Baby a good choice. Rancilio Silvia also good - a suggestion - call
> up the online Rancilio vendors ON THE PHONE (1st line, wholelattelove, etc.)
> and tell them how much you have to spend ($400) and can they get you a
> Silvia for that price - $495 is the minimum ADVERTISED price, not the
> minimum selling price. Often they will have "buyer's remorse machine that
> has low mileage under the hood, just like your Breville.
>
>
> I might have missed a thread - what grinder did you get?
I got the Gaggia MDF from Amazon for $174 or thereabouts. I was tossed
between the Cunill Tranquillo and the Gaggia. After reading tons of
reviews and such I figured the Gaggia was a better choice for me than
was the Tranquillo.
Gut feel...
I'll take your suggestion about calling. Hell it is an 800 number after
all and the worst that happens isn't it doesn't accomplish anything.
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Date: 05 Jul 2006 22:31:41
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <lloydparsons-6CE285.22153705072006@individual.net >,
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
> > Gaggia Baby a good choice. Rancilio Silvia also good - a suggestion -
> > call
> > up the online Rancilio vendors ON THE PHONE (1st line, wholelattelove,
> > etc.)
> > and tell them how much you have to spend ($400) and can they get you a
> > Silvia for that price - $495 is the minimum ADVERTISED price, not the
> > minimum selling price. Often they will have "buyer's remorse machine that
> > has low mileage under the hood, just like your Breville.
Ok, why a Rancilio Silvia vice the Gaggia? Bigger boiler? All metal
construction?
The Gaggia Baby is $349 at wholelattalover, about $150 less than the
Rancilio. Other than the cup warmer, what is the major differences?
I know, lots of questions. But I would like to not be doing this again
next year.
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 06:28:48
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 14:43:58
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
What grinder do you have / are you getting?
Brent
> Well now that I've got a good grinder on the way, I got to thinking
> about my Breville. I just got this last week (6/30/2006) at Bed, Bath &
> Beyond. So I could take it back.
>
> Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
> but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
> pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
>
> So I got to thinking, maybe it is the 'crema enhancing' filters? I know
> that you only use a pretty light tamp (about 10lbs max) with it or you
> end up with nothing good.
>
> So since this thing can go back, I thought I'd research some machines.
>
> Currently looking at the Gaggias. Baby looks very nice and price is
> certainly right.
>
> Should I look more? I'm figuring a budget somewhere in the $400 or so
> range.
>
> thanks for any suggestions ahead of time in case I forget to thank you
> after.
>
> Lloyd
|
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 10:28:29
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <4h3arpF1o3gikU1@individual.net >, "Brent" <me@privacy.net>
wrote:
> What grinder do you have / are you getting?
>
> Brent
Gaggia MDF
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 09:58:48
From: fullsack
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> Robert Harmon wrote:
> > Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage, tamp
> > pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
> > picture)?
>
> Remember how to do combinations and permutations, Robert? Calculate
> the number of possible interactions, given the nearly infinite
> variations that can occur in several of those variables.
>
> Simple to control, indeed.
>
> Will
Let's not forget the Silvia is PIDable, the Gaggia is not.
Doug
fullsack
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 10:56:28
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
"fullsack" <fullsack@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:1152205128.506740.66760@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> > Robert Harmon wrote:
> > > Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage,
tamp
> > > pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
> > > picture)?
> >
> > Remember how to do combinations and permutations, Robert? Calculate
> > the number of possible interactions, given the nearly infinite
> > variations that can occur in several of those variables.
> >
> > Simple to control, indeed.
> >
> > Will
>
> Let's not forget the Silvia is PIDable, the Gaggia is not.
>
> Doug
What about the Gaggia makes it unPIDable?
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 18:22:24
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Johnny wrote:
> "fullsack" <fullsack@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>
>>Let's not forget the Silvia is PIDable, the Gaggia is not.
>>
>>Doug
>
> What about the Gaggia makes it unPIDable?
Absolutely nothing. PIDing it will enable you to
start at the same temperature every time,
instead of being at the whim of the thermostat.
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 17:09:48
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
I've said this repeatedly; the Silvia w/PID is no longer a Silvia, just as
an Olds 442 w/blown 454 is no longer a 442. Once you've added $200 to a $500
machine it's not really the same is it? So let's compare apples to apples
not apples to road apples. Besides which, by playing with $5 thermostats
from the appliance parts store I can get a pretty stable temp with a Gaggia!
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"fullsack" <fullsack@sbcglobal.net > wrote in message
news:1152205128.506740.66760@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
>> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> > Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage, tamp
>> > pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
>> > picture)?
>>
>> Remember how to do combinations and permutations, Robert? Calculate
>> the number of possible interactions, given the nearly infinite
>> variations that can occur in several of those variables.
>>
>> Simple to control, indeed.
>>
>> Will
>
> Let's not forget the Silvia is PIDable, the Gaggia is not.
>
> Doug
> fullsack
>
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 09:46:09
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage, tamp
> pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
> picture)?
Remember how to do combinations and permutations, Robert? Calculate
the number of possible interactions, given the nearly infinite
variations that can occur in several of those variables.
Simple to control, indeed.
Will
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 17:02:20
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
OK Will, if you're shooting for the ever elusive 'God shot' the variables
can be overwhelming. I was referring to the repeatable 'good shot' & given
that I'll be using the same beans, water, machine, doses, & tamps, I'd
expect the shots to all turn out within acceptable limits. Just remember,
perfection is a target not an expected result.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1152204369.746536.316520@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage, tamp
>> pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
>> picture)?
>
> Remember how to do combinations and permutations, Robert? Calculate
> the number of possible interactions, given the nearly infinite
> variations that can occur in several of those variables.
>
> Simple to control, indeed.
>
> Will
>
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 09:41:25
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Mike Garner wrote:
> I don't understand why the Silvia (mostly by those on coffeegeek) has
> gained a reputation over there as being "finicky". The Silvia is no
> more or less "finicky" as any other quality espresso machine. There is
> nothing inherent in the design of either a Silvia or a Gaggia that makes
> one harder to operate than the other. Both require a mesaure of skill
> with the machine and a high quality grinder.
Heavenly days, Mike, I don't know why, either, but I do not think that
all the hundreds of us who have found her a short-tempered vixen are
suffering from mass delusion. I find her picky only with regard to
grind. Once you get her dialed in you only need to adjust as the beans
age or the weather changes but get outside a very narrow range and she
either chokes or delivers a 10-second shot.
I certainly agree with your last sentence. I've been courting Miss
Silvia for years now and I continue to identify myself very much as a
learner.
Will
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Date: 06 Jul 2006 14:16:05
From: Mike Garner
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <1152204085.741453.236390@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
Omniryx@gmail.com says...
> Heavenly days, Mike, I don't know why, either, but I do not think that
> all the hundreds of us who have found her a short-tempered vixen are
> suffering from mass delusion. I find her picky only with regard to
> grind. Once you get her dialed in you only need to adjust as the beans
> age or the weather changes but get outside a very narrow range and she
> either chokes or delivers a 10-second shot.
*Every* espresso machine within the Silvia's class and above is
sensitive to grind. There is nothing special about the Silvia that
makes it more so.
Mike
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 08:24:49
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
> but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
> pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
Don't forget that bean freshness makes a tremendous difference here, and
beans are starting to get too old for the best crema a week or 10 days
after roasting.
Using Rocky+Silvia here, fresh beans will provide a shot that is half
crema (visually, in a shot glas). Old beans, hardly any.
--
St. John
Advertising is a valuable economic factor because it is the cheapest
way of selling goods, particularly if the goods are worthless.
-Sinclair Lewis
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 10:28:09
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <e8iveh$4sm$1@n4vu2.n4vu.com >,
"St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com > wrote:
> Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> > Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
> > but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
> > pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
>
> Don't forget that bean freshness makes a tremendous difference here, and
> beans are starting to get too old for the best crema a week or 10 days
> after roasting.
>
> Using Rocky+Silvia here, fresh beans will provide a shot that is half
> crema (visually, in a shot glas). Old beans, hardly any.
Living in the boonies as I do, I'm pretty much limited to one of 3
methods of obtaining beans:
1. Grocery store drek
2. Gloria Jeans
3. Internet/mail order
#2 (Gloria Jeans) sure doesn't look to be all that fresh as the coffee
beans are sitting in bins open to the air. But some of it tastes good,
maybe it would taste better if I roasted myself...
#3 - Just how do you know how fresh the beans are that you get?
I don't think I want to go to the roast my own route at the moment. Of
course things change... ;-)
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 11:34:26
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> I don't think I want to go to the roast my own route at the moment. Of
> course things change... ;-)
They do. Particularly, after the first time you pull a shot that's half
crema. ;)
--
St. John
Mencken and Nathan's Ninth Law of The Average American:
The quality of a champagne is judged by the amount of noise the
cork makes when it is popped.
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 15:10:08
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>
>Living in the boonies as I do...
>
Hey! That's where I live! The boonies are just a mile up the road!
>I'm pretty much limited to one of 3
>methods of obtaining beans:
>
>1. Grocery store drek
Ewwwww... I'd rater buy used pucks.
>2. Gloria Jeans
Not fad behind from teh smaples I have had.
>3. Internet/mail order
>
There are worse choices. There are a number of repuitable roasters
selling fresh cofee that way, but it can get expensive depending on
the depth of your habit.
>#3 - Just how do you know how fresh the beans are that you get?
>
In most cases, you don't.
For espresso, two weeks after roasting is, IMO, way too old. I try to
roast enough to last about no more than 10 days. WIth a PID'd SIlvia
you can taste the difference as the 10 days pass, particularly near
the end... I mean the end of the 10 days, not taste them near your
end. ;-P~
>I don't think I want to go to the roast my own route at the moment.
>
Yes you do!
Randy "Silvia says, Hey!" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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| | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 17:35:57
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <u92ra2ln5vo8m8scagl375boadfp1pgps2@4ax.com >,
Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
> >3. Internet/mail order
> >
> There are worse choices. There are a number of repuitable roasters
> selling fresh cofee that way, but it can get expensive depending on
> the depth of your habit.
>
> >#3 - Just how do you know how fresh the beans are that you get?
> >
> In most cases, you don't.
> For espresso, two weeks after roasting is, IMO, way too old. I try to
> roast enough to last about no more than 10 days. WIth a PID'd SIlvia
> you can taste the difference as the 10 days pass, particularly near
> the end... I mean the end of the 10 days, not taste them near your
> end. ;-P~
>
> >I don't think I want to go to the roast my own route at the moment.
> >
> Yes you do!
>
>
> Randy "Silvia says, Hey!" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
OK, I'll start a thread about roasting here in a minute. I will say
that while you guys are giving up a ton of info, my CC seems to be about
to take a screwing! ;-)
I'm just about down to the nut cutting here. I'm going to order
whatever tomorrow.
I've narrowed it down to just a few.
To 3-way or not? Is it all that important? Making a mess is part of
espresso! ;-)
And backflushing doesn't seem all that important unless you have the
3-way to begin with. It looks like you should be able to get cleaning
accomplished quite well without ever backflushing. Am I missing
something here?
So the choices I'm looking at are:
Rancilio Sylvia -- I know that seems to be the favorite here. I'm not
quite convinced.
Gaggia Baby - at $349 it is awfully tempting.
or the Baby D? I'm a computer geek and it holds a certain allure.
but then, the Gaggia Coffee Deluxe looks pretty nifty too. At $227
refurb'd, it is tempting. Or $348 new?
Any real downside to refurbs?
For info, I usually drink cremas, caps and americano, seldom straight
espresso. Well espresso cut with a bit of cognac now and then ;-)
I won't talk about other coffee makers and such that I use as you all
probably wouldn't like them!
|
| | | | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 11:45:06
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
>>
> OK, I'll start a thread about roasting here in a minute. I will say
> that while you guys are giving up a ton of info, my CC seems to be about
> to take a screwing! ;-)
oh, nobody warned you? oops sorry :)
Wait until the fanatics chime in!
Brent
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 23:14:26
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> So the choices I'm looking at are:
>
> Rancilio Sylvia -- I know that seems to be the favorite here. I'm not
> quite convinced.
>
> Gaggia Baby - at $349 it is awfully tempting.
>
> or the Baby D? I'm a computer geek and it holds a certain allure.
>
> but then, the Gaggia Coffee Deluxe looks pretty nifty too. At $227
> refurb'd, it is tempting. Or $348 new?
>
> Any real downside to refurbs?
I have an Espresso refurb, still running great. Only thing
I've replaced is a thermal fuse.
On that subject, if you're considering the Coffee, why not
the Espresso at $199 new ? The only difference I'm aware of
is the frother but you're probably going to toss it anyways.
(For the record, I've never tried the auto-frother but I
feel safe in saying you're going to like your own results
much better.)
IMHO either you go cheap with the Espresso/Carreza/Evolution
or you go for the stainless steel 3 way valve goodness in
the Silvia or Classic. I just don't see any significant
improvement in between.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 01:06:48
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Downside to refurbs, hmmmm? Oh yeah, it'll force you to find something else
to throw your money away on. The solenoid valve is of very limited value to
me. If anything it's primary function seems to be starting heated arguments
between the pro backflushers & the con four-flushers. ;) It is supposed to
help reduce the messy slush in the filter after drawing a shot (???) & it
may help reduce portafilter sneezes by reducing the pressure (???). I think
that's a bunch of hooey; anytime you crank up the ol' boiler for a shot you
might as well bring out the bar towel as well. It's an inherently messy
hobby/obsession you're getting into.
And there's a bit more wiggle room between the Silvia/Classic & the
Espresso/Carreza/Evolution than the Pup mentioned. There are the old style
Coffee's & Baby's with 3-way valves, La Pavoni makes some pretty decent
semi-autos & their manual machines are objects of desire once you master
them, Saeco makes nice semi's as do others.
If you buy new or refurbished do talk the salesperson into tossing in a
starter kit. Given the markup on the machines it's the least they should do
for a new customer.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Mud Pup" <mudpup@retriever.dyndns.org > wrote in message
news:mPgrg.4112$PE1.2774@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Lloyd Parsons wrote:
snipped
>> Any real downside to refurbs?
>
> I have an Espresso refurb, still running great. Only thing
> I've replaced is a thermal fuse.
>
> On that subject, if you're considering the Coffee, why not
> the Espresso at $199 new ? The only difference I'm aware of
> is the frother but you're probably going to toss it anyways.
> (For the record, I've never tried the auto-frother but I
> feel safe in saying you're going to like your own results
> much better.)
>
> IMHO either you go cheap with the Espresso/Carreza/Evolution
> or you go for the stainless steel 3 way valve goodness in
> the Silvia or Classic. I just don't see any significant
> improvement in between.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 20:50:43
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <Isirg.4143$PE1.1348@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Downside to refurbs, hmmmm? Oh yeah, it'll force you to find something else
> to throw your money away on. The solenoid valve is of very limited value to
> me. If anything it's primary function seems to be starting heated arguments
> between the pro backflushers & the con four-flushers. ;) It is supposed to
> help reduce the messy slush in the filter after drawing a shot (???) & it
> may help reduce portafilter sneezes by reducing the pressure (???). I think
> that's a bunch of hooey; anytime you crank up the ol' boiler for a shot you
> might as well bring out the bar towel as well. It's an inherently messy
> hobby/obsession you're getting into.
>
> And there's a bit more wiggle room between the Silvia/Classic & the
> Espresso/Carreza/Evolution than the Pup mentioned. There are the old style
> Coffee's & Baby's with 3-way valves, La Pavoni makes some pretty decent
> semi-autos & their manual machines are objects of desire once you master
> them, Saeco makes nice semi's as do others.
>
> If you buy new or refurbished do talk the salesperson into tossing in a
> starter kit. Given the markup on the machines it's the least they should do
> for a new customer.
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
Thanks, that is what I thought re the 3-way valve.
LaPavoni has some nice stuff, here's a couple of models I considered:
Lusso - looked nice, but the damn thing has pressurized porta-filters.
I don't want that. That is what the Breville had. My experience with
it was that while it did crema pretty good, it sure wasn't like any of
the pictures of what a good crema was supposed to look like.
Napolitana - Looks damn good.
Problem with the LaPavoni pump machines is trying to find the
specifications on them. I never found a website worth a damn for the
Napolitana.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 04:27:12
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Saeco makes a lot of machines that sell under the La Pavoni label. I've not
seen the Napolitana but I've always been leery of grind & brew combo
machines (Gaggia Paros is another). If the grinder is busted you lose both
while it's in the shop. )-; Also what is the portafilter size? If it's a
LP/Saeco it'll have a small diameter PF (58 mm PF's are considered optimum).
I just repaired a La Pavoni Espresso Plus Lusso with a pressurized PF. I
found a Saeco nonpressurized PF that was a perfect fit. So you're not
limited in that way. Personally, after fixing the LP I was pretty impressed
by its performance & especially its size - approx. 10" x 10" x 12" (very
small & very light). But, for what you get the LP pump machines are WAY
over priced!
But hey, whatever works for you is great. Enjoy.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-A3484A.20504306072006@individual.net...
> LaPavoni has some nice stuff, here's a couple of models I considered:
>
> Lusso - looked nice, but the damn thing has pressurized porta-filters.
> I don't want that. That is what the Breville had. My experience with
> it was that while it did crema pretty good, it sure wasn't like any of
> the pictures of what a good crema was supposed to look like.
>
> Napolitana - Looks damn good.
>
> Problem with the LaPavoni pump machines is trying to find the
> specifications on them. I never found a website worth a damn for the
> Napolitana.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 02:13:56
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 21:19:27
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <44adc24b.515689952@localhost >,
ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
> Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 05:16:20
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
There is much good information in Robert's comparison of the Silvia and
the various Gaggias. Here are two more things to consider:
First, if you want to perfect your skills, you'll want Silvia. She is
a finicky, demanding lady and if you can learn to run her well you can
run any other machine well. The Gaggias are a lot more forgiving so if
you aren't interested in learning "the ritual" and simply want a quick
cup, one of them might be the better choice.
Second, both machines are reasonably well built but Silvia is a lot
better built. If you tend to be smitten with the upgrade bug, there is
no need to spend the extra money for beefier construction and better
quality parts. If a year after you get this machine you're going to be
lusting for a Brewtus II or similar, there is nothing to be gained
(other than a little resale value) by paying more for Silvia. OTOH, if
you are the sort that will happily live with a good machine for the
next 20 years, Silvia is worth the extra bucks.
That's the view from here, at least. YMMV, of course.
Will
Robert Harmon wrote:
> There isn't a lot of difference between the Rancilio Silvia (RS) & the
> different Gaggia's. The RS has a brass boiler of greater capacity, but the
> Gaggia's boiler heating element brings the temps up so quickly that boiler
> size isn't an issue. The RS & some Gaggia's have 3-way solenoid valves which
> may or may not be useful if you do or do not decide that backflushing is
> good for your machine. ;)
>
> Some, myself included, would rather not have to deal with the aluminum upper
> half of Gaggia's boiler - some believe it corrodes too fast and some have
> concerns about the effects of aluminum on the brain. But even though I'm one
> of the complainers I still buy & recommend Gaggia's to people who ask (and
> to those who don't).
>
> I like the older Gaggia's design (Classic, Baby, Coffee) better than the
> square box look of the RS. I also find them easier to work on & replacement
> parts are reasonably priced & available.
>
> Now to my recommendation: Get a Classic instead of the Baby. The Classic's
> reservoir size is greater & easier to access, it doesn't have that elbow
> used by the solenoid valve that ALWAYS gets lost, if you need to tinker with
> it the access to the working parts is much better, and finally I just like
> the no-nonsense look of the Classic. The Baby is looking a bit dated in my
> opinion.
>
> Finally, if you measure espresso by the crema generated get a machine with a
> pressurized portafilter & load it with a premium Robusta coffee (is that an
> oxymoron?). You'll create a shot as thick as whipped cream that's more or
> less drinkable - depends on your tastes.
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:lloydparsons-5FE1B5.21120705072006@individual.net...
> > Well now that I've got a good grinder on the way, I got to thinking
> > about my Breville. I just got this last week (6/30/2006) at Bed, Bath &
> > Beyond. So I could take it back.
> >
> > Here is what I'm seeing on this machine. It does produce a tasty brew,
> > but the crema, while good, is certainly not like I see in video or
> > pictures of what is supposed to be a good crema.
> >
> > So I got to thinking, maybe it is the 'crema enhancing' filters? I know
> > that you only use a pretty light tamp (about 10lbs max) with it or you
> > end up with nothing good.
> >
> > So since this thing can go back, I thought I'd research some machines.
> >
> > Currently looking at the Gaggias. Baby looks very nice and price is
> > certainly right.
> >
> > Should I look more? I'm figuring a budget somewhere in the $400 or so
> > range.
> >
> > thanks for any suggestions ahead of time in case I forget to thank you
> > after.
> >
> > Lloyd
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 08:21:06
From: Mike Garner
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <1152188180.096932.104360@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
Omniryx@gmail.com says...
> First, if you want to perfect your skills, you'll want Silvia. She is
> a finicky, demanding lady and if you can learn to run her well you can
> run any other machine well. The Gaggias are a lot more forgiving so if
> you aren't interested in learning "the ritual" and simply want a quick
> cup, one of them might be the better choice.
>
I don't understand why the Silvia (mostly by those on coffeegeek) has
gained a reputation over there as being "finicky". The Silvia is no
more or less "finicky" as any other quality espresso machine. There is
nothing inherent in the design of either a Silvia or a Gaggia that makes
one harder to operate than the other. Both require a mesaure of skill
with the machine and a high quality grinder.
Mike
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 15:25:25
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
AND, if the Silvia is all that finicky why would anyone recommend it unless
they had stock in the company or married the owner's only daughter? If you
want finicky try keeping the ol' ball & chain's '59 T-Bird running smoothly!
Espresso machines are a piece of cake with only a handful of moving parts &
only so many ways you can adjust for better results. One thing I do is play
with different thermostats until I get one that will achieve proper brew
temps without having to temp surf.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Mike Garner" <coffee_snood@quar.net > wrote in message
news:MPG.1f16ca2d56907098989683@nntp.aioe.org...
> In article <1152188180.096932.104360@s26g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Omniryx@gmail.com says...
>> First, if you want to perfect your skills, you'll want Silvia. She is
>> a finicky, demanding lady and if you can learn to run her well you can
>> run any other machine well. The Gaggias are a lot more forgiving so if
>> you aren't interested in learning "the ritual" and simply want a quick
>> cup, one of them might be the better choice.
>>
>
> I don't understand why the Silvia (mostly by those on coffeegeek) has
> gained a reputation over there as being "finicky". The Silvia is no
> more or less "finicky" as any other quality espresso machine. There is
> nothing inherent in the design of either a Silvia or a Gaggia that makes
> one harder to operate than the other. Both require a mesaure of skill
> with the machine and a high quality grinder.
>
> Mike
|
| | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 16:21:08
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <FX9rg.4003$ye3.944@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com says...
> Espresso machines are a piece of cake with only a handful of moving parts &
> only so many ways you can adjust for better results.
>
Yes, just like there are only so many solutions to a problem with more
unknowns than equations. ;-)
Rick
|
| | | | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 16:26:06
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Except here the variables are few & fairly easy to control.
Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage, tamp
pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
picture)?
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Espressopithecus (Java Man)" <rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net > wrote in message
news:MPG.1f16d84cc8d2cd55989810@shawnews.vc.shawcable.net...
> In article <FX9rg.4003$ye3.944@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com says...
>> Espresso machines are a piece of cake with only a handful of moving parts
>> &
>> only so many ways you can adjust for better results.
>>
> Yes, just like there are only so many solutions to a problem with more
> unknowns than equations. ;-)
>
> Rick
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 16:06:59
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Mike Garner wrote:
> *Every* espresso machine within the Silvia's class and above is
> sensitive to grind. There is nothing special about the Silvia that
> makes it more so.
Well, Mike, I guess I and several hundred other folks will just have to
agree to disagree with you.
Will
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 19:54:17
From: Mike Garner
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <1152227219.550434.73030@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com >,
Omniryx@gmail.com says...
> Well, Mike, I guess I and several hundred other folks will just have to
> agree to disagree with you.
>
> Will
>
Well, before you and those "hundreds" let me ask you this. What's your
level of experience? Had hands on with many machines?
Mike
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 05:10:17
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Quoth "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >:
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 11:55:53
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
> I've said this repeatedly; the Silvia w/PID is no longer a Silvia, just as
> an Olds 442 w/blown 454 is no longer a 442. Once you've added $200 to a $500
> machine it's not really the same is it? So let's compare apples to apples
> not apples to road apples. Besides which, by playing with $5 thermostats
> from the appliance parts store I can get a pretty stable temp with a Gaggia!
Why is this such an issue with you, Robert? I'm not, repeat not,
trying to be provocative, I just wonder why it bothers you so much when
those of us who have given the old girl a case of PID still call her
Silvia.
|
| | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 19:18:09
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Well Will, there is an explanation for my obsession.. If some novice reads
the a.c. archives & reads of the great things one can do with a 'Silvia'
would they understand that the discussion is not about a $500 machine but
about on costing $700 plus? I'm just trying to add a little balance to the
observations, so the initiate has a better understanding of the discussion.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
<Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1152212152.884534.113870@s53g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
>
> Robert Harmon wrote:
>> I've said this repeatedly; the Silvia w/PID is no longer a Silvia, just
>> as
>> an Olds 442 w/blown 454 is no longer a 442. Once you've added $200 to a
>> $500
>> machine it's not really the same is it? So let's compare apples to apples
>> not apples to road apples. Besides which, by playing with $5 thermostats
>> from the appliance parts store I can get a pretty stable temp with a
>> Gaggia!
>
> Why is this such an issue with you, Robert? I'm not, repeat not,
> trying to be provocative, I just wonder why it bothers you so much when
> those of us who have given the old girl a case of PID still call her
> Silvia.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 15:45:38
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Well Will, there is an explanation for my obsession.. If some novice reads
> the a.c. archives & reads of the great things one can do with a 'Silvia'
> would they understand that the discussion is not about a $500 machine but
> about on costing $700 plus?
I don't know that they should, and I don't know that it isn't.
Discussion of the excellence of Miss Silvia far predates the PIDing trend.
--
St. John
The streets are safe in Philadelphia, it's only the people who make
them unsafe.
-Mayor Frank Rizzo
|
| |
Date: 06 Jul 2006 11:53:25
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
> OK Will, if you're shooting for the ever elusive 'God shot' the variables
> can be overwhelming. I was referring to the repeatable 'good shot' & given
> that I'll be using the same beans, water, machine, doses, & tamps, I'd
> expect the shots to all turn out within acceptable limits. Just remember,
> perfection is a target not an expected result.
A good point, Robert. As I recall, I've made one God shot in my whole
career, maybe two. (snigger) I will be plenty happy with repeatable
good shots/
Will
|
| |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 11:15:54
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
I want to thank all of those that emailed and responded to my postings.
It helped and confused, which is what I expected.
In the end, here's what I have ordered:
Espresso Machine -
Miss Sylvia! - I was really tossed on this. I love SS, what can I say?
Looks bright and shiny, lasts forever... Also, damn near every review I
read on the Sylvia said buy it and that counts for something.
I ended up being between this and the Bezzera BZ02S. Since I had moved
my $$$ goalpost up, this fit too. Lots to recommend the Bezzera, but
hard to find reviews. So in the end, I saved $200 by buying Miss Sylvia.
Got it from JL Huffords as they are 1 ship day away. Should get it
Monday or Tuesday.
Grinder -
Gaggia MDF. Amazon just had a great deal on it, although shipping is
quirky. Got notice of shipment with estimated arrival on 7/14. Just
checked with Fedex and it is scheduled for delivery today! Like I said,
quirky.
Roaster -
FreshRoast 8 Plus (or is that Plus 8?) from sweetmarias along with 8
samples of whatever they pick for espresso in green beans, some cloth
bags and some plastic vented bags for the beans after roast.
I was going to go to the golf course, but I think the fedex shipment
needs a signature, so I'll drink some drip coffee, watch the LPGA (hey,
boobs on golfers is good! <G), especially if they put them on me! and
maybe hit the course later.
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 15:33:26
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Good choices and good luck to you. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say
"I'm really sorry that I bought a Silvia". Personally I think I might have
gone for the HX machine for $200 more (what the hell) but the Silvia is
probably more reliable in the long run - owning an HX machine you can expect
fairly constant ongoing maintenance expenses as various things wear out or
break - pressure stats, autofill control boxes, etc. so the life cycle cost
is much more than the original purch. price. There's just less to break on a
Silvia.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-D0BC22.11155407072006@individual.net...
>I want to thank all of those that emailed and responded to my postings.
> It helped and confused, which is what I expected.
>
> In the end, here's what I have ordered:
>
> Espresso Machine -
>
> Miss Sylvia! - I was really tossed on this. I love SS, what can I say?
> Looks bright and shiny, lasts forever... Also, damn near every review I
> read on the Sylvia said buy it and that counts for something.
>
> I ended up being between this and the Bezzera BZ02S. Since I had moved
> my $$$ goalpost up, this fit too. Lots to recommend the Bezzera, but
> hard to find reviews. So in the end, I saved $200 by buying Miss Sylvia.
>
> Got it from JL Huffords as they are 1 ship day away. Should get it
> Monday or Tuesday.
>
> Grinder -
>
> Gaggia MDF. Amazon just had a great deal on it, although shipping is
> quirky. Got notice of shipment with estimated arrival on 7/14. Just
> checked with Fedex and it is scheduled for delivery today! Like I said,
> quirky.
>
> Roaster -
>
> FreshRoast 8 Plus (or is that Plus 8?) from sweetmarias along with 8
> samples of whatever they pick for espresso in green beans, some cloth
> bags and some plastic vented bags for the beans after roast.
>
>
> I was going to go to the golf course, but I think the fedex shipment
> needs a signature, so I'll drink some drip coffee, watch the LPGA (hey,
> boobs on golfers is good! <G), especially if they put them on me! and
> maybe hit the course later.
|
| | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 15:03:02
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <SbKdnd59JOObKjPZnZ2dnUVZ_rOdnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> Good choices and good luck to you. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say
> "I'm really sorry that I bought a Silvia". Personally I think I might have
> gone for the HX machine for $200 more (what the hell) but the Silvia is
> probably more reliable in the long run - owning an HX machine you can expect
> fairly constant ongoing maintenance expenses as various things wear out or
> break - pressure stats, autofill control boxes, etc. so the life cycle cost
> is much more than the original purch. price. There's just less to break on a
> Silvia.
>
>
Yep, that Bezzera was tempting. I didn't know what maintenance to
expect on it because getting reviews or other info about it was
difficult.
From a straight up specification standpoint, at $695 it was a bargain
and well worth that price.
But the Sylvia reviews are all over the place and very strongly in favor
of it. That just couldn't be ignored. Once I decided on SS, then it
was down to the Gaggia Classic, Sylvia and the Bezzera. For the $500,
the Sylvia was just better imo.
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Date: 07 Jul 2006 18:32:52
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Look at reviews and alt.coffee postings regarding the (Pasquini )Livia....it
is essentially the same machine "under the skin". Livia had a lot of
positive early reviews but the brain box was in a warm location and was not
long lived. An expensive repair if your idea of repair is to send it back to
the dealer for a new brain box. Not too bad if you are able to make your own
board level repairs to the circuit board.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-15E679.15030207072006@individual.net...
> In article <SbKdnd59JOObKjPZnZ2dnUVZ_rOdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> Good choices and good luck to you. I don't think I've ever heard anyone
>> say
>> "I'm really sorry that I bought a Silvia". Personally I think I might
>> have
>> gone for the HX machine for $200 more (what the hell) but the Silvia is
>> probably more reliable in the long run - owning an HX machine you can
>> expect
>> fairly constant ongoing maintenance expenses as various things wear out
>> or
>> break - pressure stats, autofill control boxes, etc. so the life cycle
>> cost
>> is much more than the original purch. price. There's just less to break
>> on a
>> Silvia.
>>
>>
>
> Yep, that Bezzera was tempting. I didn't know what maintenance to
> expect on it because getting reviews or other info about it was
> difficult.
>
> From a straight up specification standpoint, at $695 it was a bargain
> and well worth that price.
>
> But the Sylvia reviews are all over the place and very strongly in favor
> of it. That just couldn't be ignored. Once I decided on SS, then it
> was down to the Gaggia Classic, Sylvia and the Bezzera. For the $500,
> the Sylvia was just better imo.
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| | | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 15:10:47
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <lloydparsons-15E679.15030207072006@individual.net >,
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
> In article <SbKdnd59JOObKjPZnZ2dnUVZ_rOdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> > Good choices and good luck to you. I don't think I've ever heard anyone
> > say
> > "I'm really sorry that I bought a Silvia". Personally I think I might have
> > gone for the HX machine for $200 more (what the hell) but the Silvia is
> > probably more reliable in the long run - owning an HX machine you can
> > expect
> > fairly constant ongoing maintenance expenses as various things wear out or
> > break - pressure stats, autofill control boxes, etc. so the life cycle cost
> > is much more than the original purch. price. There's just less to break on
> > a
> > Silvia.
> >
> >
>
> Yep, that Bezzera was tempting. I didn't know what maintenance to
> expect on it because getting reviews or other info about it was
> difficult.
>
> From a straight up specification standpoint, at $695 it was a bargain
> and well worth that price.
>
> But the Sylvia reviews are all over the place and very strongly in favor
> of it. That just couldn't be ignored. Once I decided on SS, then it
> was down to the Gaggia Classic, Sylvia and the Bezzera. For the $500,
> the Sylvia was just better imo.
Just a followup to my ordering.
Ordered the Sylvia from jlhufford.com, got the shipping notification
this afternoon, and according to Fedex, it will be delivered tomorrow!
Damn, that is quick service. I'm impressed.
On a sadder note, I haven't received any info about my order from
sweetmaria.com. Maybe they are a bit slower???
Finally, got the Gaggia MDF, zeroed it and did a test run. Wow! The
grind is so much smoother than my Cuisinart and the machine is a hell of
a lot quieter too.
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Date: 07 Jul 2006 23:02:05
From: cschepers
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> On a sadder note, I haven't received any info about my order from
> sweetmaria.com. Maybe they are a bit slower???
Might be. They were off a couple days this week could still be backed
up. Don't sweat it, you'll hear something from them. And if not, they
usually respond within a day or so from email [well, except over
weekends (usually)].
Chris Schepers
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 18:26:15
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <MJBrg.24768$FQ1.16469@attbi_s71 >,
cschepers <cschepers@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> > On a sadder note, I haven't received any info about my order from
> > sweetmaria.com. Maybe they are a bit slower???
>
> Might be. They were off a couple days this week could still be backed
> up. Don't sweat it, you'll hear something from them. And if not, they
> usually respond within a day or so from email [well, except over
> weekends (usually)].
>
> Chris Schepers
Just got the UPS notification, shipped and on its way. Next Thursday
night I should be smoking up the house quite nicely... ;-)
|
| |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 06:14:47
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Mike Garner wrote:
> Well, before you and those "hundreds" let me ask you this. What's your
> level of experience? Had hands on with many machines?
A fair question, Mike, and the answer is "probably not nearly as many
as you have." Let me think a minute. I've personally owned a little
old Saeco (model name escapes me), a couple of Krups pump machines, a
Gaggia Classic, and a Rancilio Epoca 2-group that was awfully beat up
and too big for my kitchen. One of my closest friends--with a lot more
money than I--had a Giotto Classic that he traded up a few months ago
for a 1-group Linea (yeah, had his kitchen rewired). I've worked with
those two quite a bit. And a buddy from work has a Brewtus that I run
from time to time.
That's about it. Hardly an expert. What was your point, exactly?
That I don't know enough about other machines to comment on them
intelligently. That's probably perfectly true but since I only spoke
in any detail about Silvia, with which I have LOTS of experience, I'm
not sure how your question applies.
Will
|
| | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 08:36:05
From: Mike Garner
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <1152278087.745172.42570@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
Omniryx@gmail.com says...
>
> Mike Garner wrote:
> > Well, before you and those "hundreds" let me ask you this. What's your
> > level of experience? Had hands on with many machines?
>
>
> That's about it. Hardly an expert. What was your point, exactly?
> That I don't know enough about other machines to comment on them
> intelligently. That's probably perfectly true but since I only spoke
> in any detail about Silvia, with which I have LOTS of experience, I'm
> not sure how your question applies.
>
> Will
>
>
In review, my questiions were phrased inelequently. Ultimately, what I
was trying to do was to discern a baseline of your personal experience.
Coincendentally, My list of expreience reads much like yours. However,
one thing I do have is close to 12 years experience with home espresso
preperation. When moving from machine to machine, I *have* found that
many machines have their own quirks, which is how I would categorize the
reported issues with Silvia.
Often, I see folks that new to espresso trying to make espresso with the
Silvia coming from steam toys or cheap pump machines, many times with a
substandard grinder. IMO, this is where the "finicky" reputation of
silvia started. Folks without adequate experiece, grinders, and coffee
jumping into a premium espresso machine and expecting it to work just
like their crema enhanced Krups. I then see this "fact" being passed on
from semi-newbie to newbie, always without substantiation.
Mike
|
| |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 05:55:08
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Donn Cave wrote:
> It will always be hard to swallow assertions like that without at
> least a hypothetical explanation. Any idea? Standard filter basket
> too shallow? Channeling due to excessive turbulence? If you're
> right, there's clearly something wrong in the design of this machine.
I quite agree, Donn, and am quick to acknowledge that I have no
hypothetical explanation. I'm simply sharing what you can easily
verify for yourself, namely that a great many users find that
sensitivity to grind is particularly noticeable in Silvias. Heck, I
wouldn't even argue that the simple fact that lots of people say so
makes it true...only that lots of people say so.
I did find, quite a while back, that Silvie seemed lots happier with a
LM ridgeless than with the stock double from Rancilio. What that
means? No clue. It just works better. I think.
Given that one of the Espresso Gods has said that one degree of
temperature can make the difference in a shot that is delicious and one
that is "undrinkable," it is apparent that even tiny differences in the
process can make big (perceived) changes in the product. That being
the case, it would not seem to me unreasonable that the interaction of
the particular group design, dispersion apparatus, filter
characteristics, water pressure and flow rate, et cetera, et cetera,
could influence sensitivity to grind.
Could I be wrong? Absolutely.
Will
|
| |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 11:09:16
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
Thanks for your gracious reply, Mike. I've been fiddling with espresso
machines at home for about...lemme see....fifteen years, maybe, but
seriously only for the last five or so. I still have much to learn.
You know, you talked about newbies "flying up" to Silvia and having
trouble and I can certainly see that to be true. OTOH, I think there
are a fair number of old hands who still have to fiddle a lot with the
grinder to keep the gal happy.
If there is one piece of advice that I try to get across to newbies it
is BELIEVE WHAT COFFEE PEOPLE TELL YOU ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF A GOOD
GRINDER. It is so absolutely true and so damned hard to make beginners
believe.
I probably overstated the finickiness of the Silvia in my initial post.
What I meant was that it does require a lot of experimentation with a
good grinder to figure out her habits, whereas I could throw anything
from Turkish to press into an old Krups and something brown would come
out the bottom.
Will
Mike Garner wrote:
> In review, my questiions were phrased inelequently. Ultimately, what I
> was trying to do was to discern a baseline of your personal experience.
<snip to end >
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| | |
Date: 07 Jul 2006 14:15:16
From: Mike Garner
Subject: Re: Espresso Machine suggestions
|
In article <1152295756.586264.36950@k73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
Omniryx@gmail.com says...
> Thanks for your gracious reply, Mike. I've been fiddling with espresso
> machines at home for about...lemme see....fifteen years, maybe, but
> seriously only for the last five or so. I still have much to learn.
> If there is one piece of advice that I try to get across to newbies it
> is BELIEVE WHAT COFFEE PEOPLE TELL YOU ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF A GOOD
> GRINDER. It is so absolutely true and so damned hard to make beginners
> believe.
Please don't feel that I was singling you out...It's just a trend that
I've noticed and was just wondering what was propagating the trend.
But yes, I agree. GRINDER, GRINDER, GRINDER! It's a hard lesson to get
across, especially to those just starting in the hobby. The machine is
so much more glamorous than the grinder, it's naturally where a beginner
wants to spend his money. Honestly, If I'd bought my Mazzer years ago,
I might still be using my first Gaggia. Getting the Super Jolly has had
more impact upon my espresso than every machine upgrade since getting
that first Gaggia.
Mike "Shoulda bought the Mazzer many years ago..." G.
|
| |
Date: 08 Jul 2006 06:55:50
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Gaggia unPIDable? NOT
|
Absolutley nothing makes the Gaggia "un-PIDable"
I've done 85 silvias, and the Gaggia is really helped as well.
Dave b
Johnny wrote:
> "fullsack" <fullsack@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:1152205128.506740.66760@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Robert Harmon wrote:
> > > > Bean quality & grind, water quality & temp, coffee & water dosage,
> tamp
> > > > pressure. Am I forgetting something (of course I am, but you get the
> > > > picture)?
> > >
> > > Remember how to do combinations and permutations, Robert? Calculate
> > > the number of possible interactions, given the nearly infinite
> > > variations that can occur in several of those variables.
> > >
> > > Simple to control, indeed.
> > >
> > > Will
> >
> > Let's not forget the Silvia is PIDable, the Gaggia is not.
> >
> > Doug
>
> What about the Gaggia makes it unPIDable?
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|
