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Main
Date: 20 Jun 2006 12:58:44
From: daveb
Subject: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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Since things are kinda slow here as we roll into summer, more on the
dead horse perpetual debate.
A verbatim quote from the Sweet Maria's site:
"Cleaning the Silvia: The Silvia is not a backflushing machine. "
[http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.rancilio.shtml]
RG must've missed that one.
:-
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 16:31:47
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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<< I don't claim the level of expertise that you do but I must >>
what a pathetic rap, bobby. thank you for sharing. Is a hundred
espresso repairs a lot? oh gee, I meant a thousand!
geez, guess not. BTW, thanx for quoting me -- now rg will be able to
read . . .
Dave "dy'o898tk5kf6m005c" b
Robert Harmon wrote:
> What a pitiful thing it is to watch daveb make a laughing stock of himself
> in a public venue. Can you imagine an auto mechanic claiming automotive
> expertise after repairing 'way over a hundred' Fords & Hondas? 'Way over a
> hundred' might have meaning if you're discussing rocket shots with a NASA
> technician, or combat missions with a pilot of a F104, but espresso
> machines - HAH!
>
> And how long have you been in the business sonny boy, five years or was it
> more? Your customers must have felt very lucky that a man of your expertise
> could find time to work on their machines.
>
> I don't claim the level of expertise that you do but I must be getting close
> to your level if all it takes is 'way over a hundred'.
>
> Robert (be gone for a fortnight) Harmon
>
> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1150841776.172846.4390@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> > Andy suggested that your "killfilter" should be working -- but
> > apparently is not working. Nor is Harmon's despite his promises
> >
> > -- Nothing you say has any effect, rg. How sad that you have to resort
> > to old postings and handles that went down over a YEAR ago and were ill
> > -advised and bad manners as I have conceded! --
> >
> > I've always posted my actual phone number and used my name direct email
> > and webaddress.
> >
> > I enjoy nothing more (at least here on ac) than tweaking you over the
> > BF thing. It is a riot!
> >
> > So, so, sorry that sweet marias -- a valuable resource -- takes the
> > same position as me. Are they trying to pump up their service
> > revenues?
> >
> > I have NEVER EVER seen a Silvia or a Gaggia for tha matter -- fail due
> > to lack of "backflushing." and I've worked on way over a hundred of
> > them! That's right -- actual espresso machines for real people -- not
> > text files or blog pages -- not free virtual advice -- but making good
> > machines out of broken ones, for REAL money, to happy customers, all
> > over North America. You and your bro', bobby, can indulge in name
> > calling, bad language and insults all you want. It rolls off, just
> > like water off a 3 way valve
> >
> > I am REALLY looking forward to seeing you next year -- in Long Beach,
> > at the hottop booth.
> >
> > You wanna beat the drum? I'm right here, pal.
> >
> > Dave "SDTRRTGvert43tgww3" b
> >
> > 877 286 2833 -- toll free
> >
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 15:20:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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<< Tom makes a LOT of typos >>
better get on that then, Smith.
dave "4fb2a4cc003" b
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 15:16:16
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Andy suggested that your "killfilter" should be working -- but
apparently is not working. Nor is Harmon's despite his promises
-- Nothing you say has any effect, rg. How sad that you have to resort
to old postings and handles that went down over a YEAR ago and were ill
-advised and bad manners as I have conceded! --
I've always posted my actual phone number and used my name direct email
and webaddress.
I enjoy nothing more (at least here on ac) than tweaking you over the
BF thing. It is a riot!
So, so, sorry that sweet marias -- a valuable resource -- takes the
same position as me. Are they trying to pump up their service
revenues?
I have NEVER EVER seen a Silvia or a Gaggia for tha matter -- fail due
to lack of "backflushing." and I've worked on way over a hundred of
them! That's right -- actual espresso machines for real people -- not
text files or blog pages -- not free virtual advice -- but making good
machines out of broken ones, for REAL money, to happy customers, all
over North America. You and your bro', bobby, can indulge in name
calling, bad language and insults all you want. It rolls off, just
like water off a 3 way valve
I am REALLY looking forward to seeing you next year -- in Long Beach,
at the hottop booth.
You wanna beat the drum? I'm right here, pal.
Dave "SDTRRTGvert43tgww3" b
877 286 2833 -- toll free
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 23:10:15
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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What a pitiful thing it is to watch daveb make a laughing stock of himself
in a public venue. Can you imagine an auto mechanic claiming automotive
expertise after repairing 'way over a hundred' Fords & Hondas? 'Way over a
hundred' might have meaning if you're discussing rocket shots with a NASA
technician, or combat missions with a pilot of a F104, but espresso
machines - HAH!
And how long have you been in the business sonny boy, five years or was it
more? Your customers must have felt very lucky that a man of your expertise
could find time to work on their machines.
I don't claim the level of expertise that you do but I must be getting close
to your level if all it takes is 'way over a hundred'.
Robert (be gone for a fortnight) Harmon
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1150841776.172846.4390@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Andy suggested that your "killfilter" should be working -- but
> apparently is not working. Nor is Harmon's despite his promises
>
> -- Nothing you say has any effect, rg. How sad that you have to resort
> to old postings and handles that went down over a YEAR ago and were ill
> -advised and bad manners as I have conceded! --
>
> I've always posted my actual phone number and used my name direct email
> and webaddress.
>
> I enjoy nothing more (at least here on ac) than tweaking you over the
> BF thing. It is a riot!
>
> So, so, sorry that sweet marias -- a valuable resource -- takes the
> same position as me. Are they trying to pump up their service
> revenues?
>
> I have NEVER EVER seen a Silvia or a Gaggia for tha matter -- fail due
> to lack of "backflushing." and I've worked on way over a hundred of
> them! That's right -- actual espresso machines for real people -- not
> text files or blog pages -- not free virtual advice -- but making good
> machines out of broken ones, for REAL money, to happy customers, all
> over North America. You and your bro', bobby, can indulge in name
> calling, bad language and insults all you want. It rolls off, just
> like water off a 3 way valve
>
> I am REALLY looking forward to seeing you next year -- in Long Beach,
> at the hottop booth.
>
> You wanna beat the drum? I'm right here, pal.
>
> Dave "SDTRRTGvert43tgww3" b
>
> 877 286 2833 -- toll free
>
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 14:56:16
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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Oh Bertie, Bertie. tsk.things must be slow for you as well.
I suggest y'all write in to Sweet Maria's, and send your corrections to
the author, as I did not write it.
rg and / or bobby (if bobby can get onto their website)are hereby
appointed.
(could it be SM tired of doing warranty work on BF silvias? I do not
know)
Dave "dr54t5gnmslrd6rcp" b
www.hitechespresso.com
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 22:20:54
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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>"daveb" wrote in message
>> Since things are kinda slow here as we roll into summer, more on the
>> dead horse perpetual debate.
>"I->Ian" < wrote in message
>
> Tom makes a LOT of typos
So does Dave, I think he meant to write "kinda slow here as we Troll into
summer"
Bertie
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 13:39:36
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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Yes, I don't get the reference. I'm WAY too young!
dave
Paul Monaghan wrote:
> On 20 Jun 2006 12:58:44 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >[http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.rancilio.shtml]
>
>
> I don't know anything about Silvia so this is way OT, but I read that
> article and am wondering why Tom compared her to a 56 Chevy: I'd take
> a 55 or 57 long before a 56...
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 20:31:31
From: Paul Monaghan
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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On 20 Jun 2006 12:58:44 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
>
>[http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.rancilio.shtml]
I don't know anything about Silvia so this is way OT, but I read that
article and am wondering why Tom compared her to a 56 Chevy: I'd take
a 55 or 57 long before a 56...
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 21:08:34
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:31:31 GMT, Paul Monaghan
<monaghan@shorelinelegal.com > wrote:
>On 20 Jun 2006 12:58:44 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>[http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.rancilio.shtml]
>
>
>I don't know anything about Silvia so this is way OT, but I read that
>article and am wondering why Tom compared her to a 56 Chevy: I'd take
>a 55 or 57 long before a 56...
Tom makes a LOT of typos
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 01:58:05
From: Paul Monaghan
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:08:34 GMT, "I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>>
>>I don't know anything about Silvia so this is way OT, but I read that
>>article and am wondering why Tom compared her to a 56 Chevy: I'd take
>>a 55 or 57 long before a 56...
>
>Tom makes a LOT of typos
That makes sense. Could have been worse I guess: he could have
referenced a 76 GTO over a 67...
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 21:01:22
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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True pearls of wisdom sonny!
Also from SM's;
From their discussion of Gaggia machines...
The 3-Way Valve: this does cost more - the Baby and the Classic have it
while the Espresso and the New Coffee do not. Do you need a 3-way valve to
make perfect espresso? No! But it means the machine automatically releases
high tank pressure so the "puck" is drier after extraction, and you can
clean the machine by backflushing. Note that Gaggia USA does not officially
support backflushing because it may splash hot water out the release valve
into the drip tray. This is a legal concern - you can backflush but you do
it at your own risk.
------------------------
and this from Chris Coffee's FAQ;
How often should I backflush?
You can backflush as often as you like with plain water, every time you make
coffee if you like, it won't hurt a thing. Backflushing with detergent is a
different story. The frequency that you should backflush depends on how much
coffee you make each day. For example, if you work in a coffeehouse making
hundreds of espresso drinks per day, you should be backflushing nightly.
However, if you are a home user making between two and six shots per day, I
only recommend you backflush with detergent not more than once every four to
six weeks.
What happens if I backflush too often?
If you have a machine with an lever action E61 group, the detergent will
remove all the oils and the lever will be more difficult to move up and
down. It may also start to squeak.
Should I backflush my machine?
If your machine has a three-way solenoid valve, then yes, you should be
backflushing.
------------------------
So, the owners manual for your brand-spanking new rice burner says to
inflate the tires 27 - 30 PSI, but you've found through trial & error it
handles better at 25 PSI & you get better gas mileage at 32 PSI. Would you
insist the 27 - 30 range is perfect otherwise the manufacturer wouldn't have
put it in the owner's manual? What you're obviously not aware of is that
risk management has a huge say in the corporate decision making process. CYA
is actually on of the larger facets in the design, manufacturing, and
marketing process.
------------------------
Personally, I prefer to base my opinions on empirical evidence & the advice
of people who've been there & done that. The trick there is determining
which players having been there & done that have put their experiences into
a cogent form of communication from which others may learn. The other trick
is to learn how to weed out those whose knowledge is limited or those with
knowledge who'd misdirect people for their own purposes. My maternal
Grandfather owned a gas station out on a rural highway & he was one of those
who'd give intentionally false direction to strangers. He'd say after
they've driven 50 miles in the wrong direction & 50 miles back they would
probably need some gas & a cold drink. Maybe brings to mind a regular
contributor to this newsgroup?
------------------------
Robert (poor daveb, he was born with his foot in his mouth) Harmon
"Paul Monaghan" <monaghan@shorelinelegal.com > wrote in message
news:9lmg92dan6r7ackrod4aqve3ufpv3qsl2o@4ax.com...
> On 20 Jun 2006 12:58:44 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>[http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.rancilio.shtml]
>
>
> I don't know anything about Silvia so this is way OT, but I read that
> article and am wondering why Tom compared her to a 56 Chevy: I'd take
> a 55 or 57 long before a 56...
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Date: 20 Jun 2006 14:55:15
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
[snip]
>
>Robert (poor daveb, he was born with his foot in his mouth) Harmon
>
For those who have already KF'd DBB, I apologize for the length of
this reply:
There can be times when it is fun to put the peanut in the
small-mouthed jar and watch the monkey try to get it out. But what DB
doesn't get, and probably never will, is that he is not the only one
with access to the Internet. As we continually put factual peanuts
into the jar of knowledge and he uses the mind that is his little
monkey hand to try to get them out, his frustration grows and he
throws his argumentative defecation back at us from his cage, he
continues to increase the preponderance of idiocy in his own name
which anyone who cares to search for will find.
When someone does a search for:
PID
PID espresso
Silvia PID
Rancilio Silvia PID
I will PID your Silvia
ebay PID
SUPERB, CONSISTENT ESPRESSO W/ RANCILIO SILVIA PID
HITECHESPRESSO.COM
dave713
....or any of his many alt.coffee aliases like:
dave - "dave" <edna713@yahoo.com >
DAVE4830 - "DAVE4830" <edna713@yahoo.com >
edna713 - "edna713" <edna713@yahoo.com >
joebobfeeny - joebobfeeny@hotmail.com
PIDFAN - edna713@yahoo.com
..or any of the threads in which he has participated such as:
- I WILL FIX YOUR SILVIA
- CALL OR WRITE WITH YOUR SILVIA QUESTIONS --- NOT A GIMMICK
- HELP WITH YOUR NEW TEMP CONTROLLER
- WHY IS EVERY ONE STUCK ON THE FUJI PID?
- info on TEMP CONTROL FOR SILVIA / GAGGIA
- So about the guy who's advertising PID control of Silvias etc
- Recommened products for the care and feeding of espresso
- Easy cheap mod for Silvia or other machines - $4
- Re Why the hostility?
- Re Bobby Jo edna713 dave davebob DAVE4830 PIDFAN jimbob Dave Blane
They are bombarded by our factual and cognitive arguments against his
blathering. It is why I have included the above in so many messages-
just to make it easier for folks to find them in the future.
He brags about how many PIDs he has installed. What he doesn't know
about is how many people have already contacted me over the last year
or more asking me about him. Some state that they had already done the
search and stated that there is no way do business with someone like
that. Others ask me what I think, and I just point them to the threads
here on ac and they make the decision themselves, often replying to me
that they are looking elsewhere. Some have asked me if I would let him
work on my machine, and I tell them to read the above threads and make
their own decision.
And although I have put him in my e-mail killfilter he continually
sends me email, even though I have privately as well as publically
asked him not to- yet another reason not to do business with him, as
if another was needed.
Randy " " G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 09:29:47
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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got a good point there, Will!!
:-)
Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> Now, now, children. If you can't play nicely together, mommy will have
> to make you come inside.
>
> Will
> "Intelligence has never been proof against stupidity" - Victor
> Serebriakoff
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 09:28:38
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Hi, karl -- where ya been?
Inept? Hmmm . . .. does it take much skill or lack of skill to blow out
the boiler seal?
Nope. took about 3 seconds, then a one week wait for the part.
and during that week wait? the espresso was terrible! Why? because
there was NONE!
And I'd be DELIGHTED to put you in touch with any of the 83 --
eighty-three -- actual non-virtual customers who are very well pleased
with their PID silvias and the full support they receive from me.
NEVER a complaint or a return . . . . .but sorry I won't be counting
you in that group, I guess. Tsk tsk.
please read some of the testimonials on eBay -- look for me under
'dave713'
[or call Chris at Chriscoffee.com, or look at the link on the silvia
page at his site --you heard of them, yes?] oops 3, no, 4 in house
right now -- must get back to WORK!
Yup! backflushing -- a REAL big deal. who knew?
Dave "sgtree5543nbvccwrea" B
877 286-2833 the flamers never call.
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 09:28:27
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Hi, karl -- where ya been?
Inept? Hmmm . . .. does it take much skill or lack of skill to blow out
the boiler seal?
Nope. took about 3 seconds, then a one week wait for the part.
and during that week wait? the espresso was terrible! Why? because
there was NONE!
And I'd be DELIGHTED to put you in touch with any of the 83 --
eighty-three -- actual non-virtual customers who are very well pleased
with their PID silvias and the full support they receive from me.
NEVER a complaint or a return . . . . .but sorry I won't be counting
you in that group, I guess. Tsk tsk.
please read some of the testimonials on eBay -- look for me under
'dave713'
[or call Chris at Chriscoffee.com, or look at the link on the silvia
page at his site --you heard of them, yes?] oops 3, no, 4 in house
right now -- must get back to WORK!
Yup! backflushing -- a REAL big deal. who knew?
Dave "sgtree5543nbvccwrea" B
877 286-2833 the flamers never call.
Karl wrote:
> Randy G. wrote:
>
> > yet another reason not to do business with him, as
> > if another was needed.
>
> About the only reason you need is the fact that he is the only person
> ever known to have managed to harm a Silvia by backflushing it. (Or at
> least he says he did.) Assuming he is telling the truth, and he really
> did manage to blow out the gaskets (or whatever it was he did) on a
> Silvia, doing something so many Silvia owner on alt.coffee (even those
> mechanically challenged like me) do regularly without any problem, he
> appears to be inept, indeed. Certainly not someone I'd ever let PID a
> Silvia I owned. But there are suckers born every day, and with enough
> aliases, I guess they can be found, and he has found them. (Assuming he
> is also telling the truth about how many Silivas he has PIDed.)
>
> Karl "successfully backflushing Silvia for years" Rice
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 07:58:20
From: Karl
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Randy G. wrote:
> yet another reason not to do business with him, as
> if another was needed.
About the only reason you need is the fact that he is the only person
ever known to have managed to harm a Silvia by backflushing it. (Or at
least he says he did.) Assuming he is telling the truth, and he really
did manage to blow out the gaskets (or whatever it was he did) on a
Silvia, doing something so many Silvia owner on alt.coffee (even those
mechanically challenged like me) do regularly without any problem, he
appears to be inept, indeed. Certainly not someone I'd ever let PID a
Silvia I owned. But there are suckers born every day, and with enough
aliases, I guess they can be found, and he has found them. (Assuming he
is also telling the truth about how many Silivas he has PIDed.)
Karl "successfully backflushing Silvia for years" Rice
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 10:40:31
From:
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
|
>Randy G. wrote:
>
>> yet another rant about Dave
Randy the G-man has been on Dave's case since his first post here. On
that occasion the G-man went into one of his jealous rages that he
does so well when he feels it's necessary to protect his exalted
status as the self-appointed guru of Silvadom. He's been bitching and
moaning about Dave ever since.
I have no connection with Dave in any way, but it should be clear, at
least to anyone who takes the time to look into it, that he provides
an honest and valued service to folks who want to PID their machine
but are unwilling to do it themselves. He has provided lots of good
advice here, especially on lower cost parts for PID implementations
that went against the a.c conventional wisdom.
More to the point, he seems to threaten some of the more fragile a.c
egos like the G-man and foxyken. The kindergarten-level name calling
that has come from these two is a major hoot. It goes way beyond
simple disagreements over coffee techniques.
Dave may not be the most politic of posters, but I give him credit for
refusing to kowtow to his randyship who clearly has too much time on
his hands.
_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 05:20:52
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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Now, now, children. If you can't play nicely together, mommy will have
to make you come inside.
Will
"Intelligence has never been proof against stupidity" - Victor
Serebriakoff
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Date: 21 Jun 2006 19:35:27
From: dadvocate
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
|
daveb wrote:
> I have NEVER EVER seen a Silvia or a Gaggia for tha matter -- fail due
> to lack of "backflushing." and I've worked on way over a hundred of
> them! That's right -- actual espresso machines for real people -- not
> text files or blog pages -- not free virtual advice -- but making good
> machines out of broken ones, for REAL money, to happy customers, all
> over North America.
While I'm not surprised that they don't fail in domestic use (their
duty cycle will be far lower than that of commercial machines), the
color of the water than comes out in a backflush would convince me that
it is of some benefit to taste. Not that I obsess about it but it
really isn't that much of a chore to do every now and then.
I do appreciate that far too many people here try to apply commercial
dictums to home espresso that are totally inappropriate (like using
humongous HX machines to make a couple of coffees a day and then
finding copious flushing is required).
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Date: 22 Jun 2006 18:55:26
From: Danny
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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dadvocate wrote:
-snip-
> I do appreciate that far too many people here try to apply commercial
> dictums to home espresso that are totally inappropriate (like using
> humongous HX machines to make a couple of coffees a day and then
> finding copious flushing is required).
>
That's the nature of the beast. Some are happy with domestic machines
(and they have their limitations), whilst others hanker after big
commercial machines. Doesn't mean they are wrong. I have a few
Gaggia Baby machines in the spare room, put there after I bought a
massive (1m wide) 3 group commercial lever machine. Does that make it
wrong?
Oddly enough, that great big machine (with 1940's technology) will
produce hundreds of shots, all within 4 degrees of each other, and
would also steam the milk necessary to turn those shots into cappas.
No temp surfing or flushing required.
Still costs less than 50p/day to leave on 24/7, and it provided the
nucleus for me to start the mobile espresso service, also using the
same lever machines.
Some people just like bigger toys, and are happy to do what is
necessary to make it work in their environment.
The reverse is also true - people here have tried to provide coffee on
a commercial basis using a bank of domestic machines - we all learn
somehow...
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
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Date: 22 Jun 2006 17:11:11
From: dadvocate
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
|
Danny wrote:
> Oddly enough, that great big machine (with 1940's technology) will
> produce hundreds of shots, all within 4 degrees of each other, and
> would also steam the milk necessary to turn those shots into cappas.
> No temp surfing or flushing required.
>
> Still costs less than 50p/day to leave on 24/7, and it provided the
> nucleus for me to start the mobile espresso service, also using the
> same lever machines.
While that was a fine attitude for the previous century, I feel that in
this age of proven climate change, it's prudent to try and reduce
unnecessary power consumption (until fusion power gets operational or
fission power becomes accepted as a necessity). A beast that requires
over an hour of heat up for stable operating temp to be reached might
be acceptable in a colder clime where heating is necessary anyway but
if it adds to airconditioning costs, then it's not ecologically
responsible. Yes, it's greenie speak but lots of little changes add up
to some big changes.
We now have the technology for small machines with sophisticated
temperature regulation which can provide the thermal stability required
for quality domestic use along with fast warmup times so that they
don't need to be left on 24/7. Is waiting 5 minutes for a on the spur
of the moment coffee really such a hardship?
Commercial operations (as always) have different requirements
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Date: 23 Jun 2006 21:02:53
From: Danny
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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dadvocate wrote:
> Danny wrote:
>
>>Oddly enough, that great big machine (with 1940's technology) will
>>produce hundreds of shots, all within 4 degrees of each other, and
>>would also steam the milk necessary to turn those shots into cappas.
>>No temp surfing or flushing required.
>>
>>Still costs less than 50p/day to leave on 24/7, and it provided the
>>nucleus for me to start the mobile espresso service, also using the
>>same lever machines.
>
>
> While that was a fine attitude for the previous century, I feel that in
> this age of proven climate change, it's prudent to try and reduce
> unnecessary power consumption (until fusion power gets operational or
> fission power becomes accepted as a necessity). A beast that requires
> over an hour of heat up for stable operating temp to be reached might
> be acceptable in a colder clime where heating is necessary anyway but
> if it adds to airconditioning costs, then it's not ecologically
> responsible. Yes, it's greenie speak but lots of little changes add up
> to some big changes.
>
> We now have the technology for small machines with sophisticated
> temperature regulation which can provide the thermal stability required
> for quality domestic use along with fast warmup times so that they
> don't need to be left on 24/7. Is waiting 5 minutes for a on the spur
> of the moment coffee really such a hardship?
>
> Commercial operations (as always) have different requirements
>
I agree that it's not the most economical way, but if you looked at my
site below, you would have known that I have made my machine as
efficient as possible. It is lagged (insulated) to a high degree, and
isn't warming up for an hour every morning. The elements kick in for
48 seconds every 8.5 minutes on average (idle cycle), and it is a
major kitchen appliance, providing all my hot water requirements for
cooking etc and steaming many things other than milk on the wand.
It's not too hot in England, no air conditioning (there's an oxymoron
- how efficient are they?), and I actually don't have a cooking
appliance on in the summer at all, since it's an all-in-one range that
provides hot water/central heating/cooking, which isn't necessary in
the summer. I use the Gaggia for a lot of things, and cook in the
garden most of the summer (raining or not).
What car do you drive? Have you investigated measures which reduce
the dependence on fossil fuels, such as photovoltaic roofing? (which
I am currently doing, since my roof needs replacing anyway). I use
the car for towing the espresso trailer and a motorcycle whenever
possible.
I don't know which country you are in, but I hope it's not the land of
high vehicle dependency and a disregard for the kyoto treaty, the land
where fossil fuel is meant to be used at the highest rate possible (as
long as you can co-erce the lands that still have oil) and the smog in
some places is legendary...where bio-diesel isn't a likely scenario
since you don't like diesel vehicles.
/rant off
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
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Date: 24 Jun 2006 02:06:07
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Date: 24 Jun 2006 19:45:10
From: Danny
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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D. Ross wrote:
>
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 10:52:12
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 21:02:53 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
>I don't know which country you are in, but I hope it's not the land of
>high vehicle dependency and a disregard for the kyoto treaty, the land
>where fossil fuel is meant to be used at the highest rate possible (as
>long as you can co-erce the lands that still have oil) and the smog in
>some places is legendary...where bio-diesel isn't a likely scenario
>since you don't like diesel vehicles.
>
>/rant off
We're working at it, bit by bit. There are little bio-diesel retail
outlets popping up here and there in the U.S. I never heard the
term "peak oil" five years ago. Now, I hear it in my coffee shop
all the time--even from the conservatives during daily political
discussions. And I do see customers switching from suv's to
more fuel efficient smaller vehicles. The future will be interesting,
especially as alternative technolgies become more and more
competitive.
North Sullivan
(VW Golf diesel--but not making my own bio-diesel-yet)
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Date: 22 Jun 2006 17:01:31
From: dadvocate
Subject: Re: ..
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daveb wrote:
> Now a PID on an HX, best of both worlds.
But you'd still have to flush (unlike a PIDed brew boiler machine).
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Date: 25 Jun 2006 18:33:12
From: dadvocate
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Sorry Danny, that was not meant to come out as a personal attack but
rather as a comment on machine technology. Anyone already with a large
HX machine would most likely be using less energy with it during it's
lifetime than would be saved by replacing it with a new fast heating
machine (factoring the energy cost of making the new machine). And this
would apply equally to someone buying a 2nd hand HX machine.
I was trying to say for altie/geek NEW machine purchases, it would be
nice if a fast heating, temperature stable machine was available as the
technology is certainly around to acheive this.
I don't drive a hybrid or diesel but I do have a 4 cylinder car in a
land of 6 and 8 cylinder cars and it isn't a SUV either (and you don't
want to get me started on those as inappropriate solutions).
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 21:23:01
From: Danny
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush!
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dadvocate wrote:
> Sorry Danny, that was not meant to come out as a personal attack but
> rather as a comment on machine technology. Anyone already with a large
> HX machine would most likely be using less energy with it during it's
> lifetime than would be saved by replacing it with a new fast heating
> machine (factoring the energy cost of making the new machine). And this
> would apply equally to someone buying a 2nd hand HX machine.
>
> I was trying to say for altie/geek NEW machine purchases, it would be
> nice if a fast heating, temperature stable machine was available as the
> technology is certainly around to acheive this.
>
> I don't drive a hybrid or diesel but I do have a 4 cylinder car in a
> land of 6 and 8 cylinder cars and it isn't a SUV either (and you don't
> want to get me started on those as inappropriate solutions).
>
No apology needed, as lomg as you understand where I'm coming from :)
Oddly enough, your analogy works well with what most people would
regard as an obnoxious 4x4 over here - the Landrover. It's estimated
that getting on for 70% of the entire production history is still on
the road, so when you factor the environmental cost of actually
building vehicles against the environmental cost of running them,
Landrovers (and other sturdily built vehicles) come out far ahead.
The environmental cost of running modern cars is insignificant to the
build / environmental costs.
At least old levers like mine are still being used after 30 years and
not going to landfill (and they are mostly metal, so recycleable)
against the modern machines with higher plastic content.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
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Date: 26 Jun 2006 04:35:10
From: daveb
Subject: Re: From an esteemed source and great supplier: Don't backflush! (flush daveb instead)
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Oh that is just ridiculous!
Y'know why the boilers are not insulated on HX machines?? to heat the
cups? (which is a crappy way to heat cups!!)
$5 insulation would save more energy than anything else!
dave
expert on all topics
dadvocate wrote:
> Sorry Danny, that was not meant to come out as a personal attack but
> rather as a comment on machine technology. Anyone already with a large
> HX machine would most likely be using less energy with it during it's
> lifetime than would be saved by replacing it with a new fast heating
> machine (factoring the energy cost of making the new machine). And this
> would apply equally to someone buying a 2nd hand HX machine.
>
> I was trying to say for altie/geek NEW machine purchases, it would be
> nice if a fast heating, temperature stable machine was available as the
> technology is certainly around to acheive this.
>
> I don't drive a hybrid or diesel but I do have a 4 cylinder car in a
> land of 6 and 8 cylinder cars and it isn't a SUV either (and you don't
> want to get me started on those as inappropriate solutions).
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