Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

coffee-forum.net
Promoting coffee discussion.

Main

Date: 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

A while back I mentioned that in order to keep serving quality coffee, you
must first take care of running your business. This led to some readers to
think that this is responsible for mediocre coffee. I chose the subject line
because it's not the usual pick two but rather a balance of all three.
These are all my opinions and may not apply to anyone else's shop.
We will have been in business for 2 years in March 2007. Please note that we
are a small roaster and gift shop in addition to selling coffee by the cup.

Let's call a small cup of coffee the base unit of measure. i.e. A small
coffee and a muffin is two coffee equivalents. We need to sell 350 coffee
eq. six days a week and 450 or better on Saturday. This covers basic
expenses such as rent, utilities, insurances ( workers comp, liability, etc)
debt payment, and salaries. It does not cover any expansion or enhancements.
In the morning rush, we try to get every customer his cup and rung up on
less then 30 seconds, no matter how long the line is. We use one person on
the register and one making espresso drinks and keeping the pots full. These
2 people are me and my wife.
We put out a light roast, a dark roast and a decafe coffees. Plus we have a
regular and decaf flavors. These coffees are available from opening till
closing. The equipment investment needed to supporrt this is a dual batch
grinder, a dual brewer and 7 airpots. Stainless steel airpots cost more then
$400.00 each in the 3 gallon size. The extra airpots we use so that we never
do not have a empty space in our coffee selections.
We brew to the SCAA recommendations for strength and temperature. Still we
have customers complain that our coffee is too weak, too strong, too cold,
too hot. Just today I had to boil a cup of Tanzanian peaberry in the
microwave for a customer. And be pleasant about it.
Espresso equipment consists of 2 grinders (reg & decaf) and a two group
machine. The milk bill for coffees lattes, capps, etc runs in the
neighborhood of $125.00 a week.
IF we do not control these costs, we would soon be out of business no matter
what kind of coffee we sell.
That covers fast and cheap.. now for the good.
I would love to be able to roast only enough espresso to only last 2 or 3
days. The reality is that if the batch lasts 6 days, I can not afford to
throw it out. I do try to roast only enough but I can not afford to run out.
Sorry we have no espresso is not a way to keep customers. So either I roast
to cover a week with a safety margin or risk running out. Running the
roaster for just one load is not cost effective either in gas or time.
The same is true for the coffee only with whole beans the demand is greater.
Just enough is good. Too much roasted does lower the quality in time but to
little is very bad.
This all holds true if we bought roasted beans. Small orders will eat up any
profit in shipping charges, Larger orders mean beans will be in stock for a
while.
Don't take any of this as I don't love what I do. I wouldn't trade this job
for any other job. Yes, it's long hours and a ton of responsibility but the
knowledge that I am in control of my own destiny is the best feeling in the
world.
So there it is for better or worst. Think of this the next time your local
isn't as good as what you make at home.
Thanks for reading
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 07 Dec 2006 20:03:32
From: Felix
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Bob (The Other Funk) writes:
> In my previous career I was an electrical engineer and can
> tell you that speaker cables do not have any measurable
> differences, unless the are real crap, [...]

At eight pennies per foot, I suppose this must be real crap:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103617

I'm sure my continuity detector doesn't report a difference between
Radio Shack's 22 gauge speaker cable and the ones I actually use.

> wether you pay a dollar or ten dollars a foot

One amplifier manufacturer claims that there are measurable differences
above your $1/foot threshold. (I'm not claiming that they're audible.)
Who should I believe? Which measurement techniques did you use??

Felix

Date: 09 Dec 2006 13:42:24
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
Felix entered:

> Bob (The Other Funk) writes:
>> In my previous career I was an electrical engineer and can
>> tell you that speaker cables do not have any measurable
>> differences, unless the are real crap, [...]
>
> At eight pennies per foot, I suppose this must be real crap:
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103617
>
> I'm sure my continuity detector doesn't report a difference between
> Radio Shack's 22 gauge speaker cable and the ones I actually use.
>
>> wether you pay a dollar or ten dollars a foot
>
> One amplifier manufacturer claims that there are measurable
> differences above your $1/foot threshold. (I'm not claiming that
> they're audible.) Who should I believe? Which measurement techniques
> did you use??
>
>
> Felix

While I wasn't going to going to feed this speaker cable debate, I have run
this test more then once in 25 years. Equipment used in various combinations
at different times include:
Audio spectrum analyzer - better then 0.1 dB resolution both swept and
decade modes.
Frequency tuned voltmeters.
THD meters
Cable CLR meters
TDR meters.
Swept frequency audio generators
Single frequency audio generators
audio analyzers
Tests were done into either precision 8,4 ohm loads or speakers

alledgedly 1 dB is the change that the "average" person can detect.
Also I have done/seen the same with shielded cables for audio RF and video.
There is a very big difference between cheap crap and good but measurements
doen't support various large levels of good.
That being said, if you hear a difference that I don't doesn't mean that
there isn't one. It means that I can't hear it.
Bob

--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 08 Dec 2006 03:28:08
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06 GMT, "The Other Funk"
<bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote:

>A while back I mentioned that in order to keep serving quality coffee, you
>must first take care of running your business. This led to some readers to
>think that this is responsible for mediocre coffee.

no, it was the comment that "running a coffee shop doesn't have a lot
to do with making coffee" which led at least this reader to opine on
mediocre coffee. serving quality coffee *is* taking care of business,
when your business is quality coffee. if your business is "just
coffee", then quality isn't so important, and if your business is
"just business", the product quality becomes just another variable to
be managed towards profitability. i've seen too many multi-career
folks come into coffee with the "just coffee" or "just business"
attitude. their coffee has generally been mediocre, at best, because
"Running a coffee shop doesn't have a lot to do with making coffee."

>I would love to be able to roast only enough espresso to only last 2 or 3
>days. The reality is that if the batch lasts 6 days, I can not afford to
>throw it out. I do try to roast only enough but I can not afford to run out.
>Sorry we have no espresso is not a way to keep customers. So either I roast
>to cover a week with a safety margin or risk running out. Running the
>roaster for just one load is not cost effective either in gas or time.
>The same is true for the coffee only with whole beans the demand is greater.
>Just enough is good. Too much roasted does lower the quality in time but to
>little is very bad.

how big is your roaster? if you're only going through one batch of
espresso in a week, i'd have to suggest that your roaster is too big,
or you haven't learned how to control it for smaller roasts (or both).
it's not bad to be optimistic when purchasing equipment (heck, i have
a 40qt mixer), but one must learn to manage the overcapacity while
maintaining quality, as best one can.

>So there it is for better or worst. Think of this the next time your local
>isn't as good as what you make at home.

we don't brew coffee at home, we get more than enough at work.

--barry "18 years as a single store roaster/retailer"

Date: 08 Dec 2006 12:05:14
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

In article <i2mhn2laq18grkhr8ruplvp4qgqn6d73mg@4ax.com >,
Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

> how big is your roaster? if you're only going through one batch of
> espresso in a week, i'd have to suggest that your roaster is too big,
> or you haven't learned how to control it for smaller roasts (or both).
> it's not bad to be optimistic when purchasing equipment (heck, i have
> a 40qt mixer), but one must learn to manage the overcapacity while
> maintaining quality, as best one can

And what type of roaster is it? I used to have access to a 7 kg
Diedrich - that was quite happy doing a 500 gm load. Now, I'm
'stuck with' a 14 kg Samit that won't handle < 6 kg worth a darn.
Has (mostly) to do with drum thickness (how quickly one can
control temp change relative to bean mass) It take 45 minutes just
to get this beast fired up!

--
M for N in address to mail reply

Date: 09 Dec 2006 13:27:20
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
Barry Jarrett entered:

> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06 GMT, "The Other Funk"
> <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
>> A while back I mentioned that in order to keep serving quality
>> coffee, you must first take care of running your business. This led
>> to some readers to think that this is responsible for mediocre
>> coffee.
>
> no, it was the comment that "running a coffee shop doesn't have a lot
> to do with making coffee" which led at least this reader to opine on
> mediocre coffee. serving quality coffee *is* taking care of business,
> when your business is quality coffee. if your business is "just
> coffee", then quality isn't so important, and if your business is
> "just business", the product quality becomes just another variable to
> be managed towards profitability. i've seen too many multi-career
> folks come into coffee with the "just coffee" or "just business"
> attitude. their coffee has generally been mediocre, at best, because
> "Running a coffee shop doesn't have a lot to do with making coffee."
>
>
>> I would love to be able to roast only enough espresso to only last 2
>> or 3 days. The reality is that if the batch lasts 6 days, I can not
>> afford to throw it out. I do try to roast only enough but I can not
>> afford to run out. Sorry we have no espresso is not a way to keep
>> customers. So either I roast to cover a week with a safety margin or
>> risk running out. Running the roaster for just one load is not cost
>> effective either in gas or time.
>> The same is true for the coffee only with whole beans the demand is
>> greater. Just enough is good. Too much roasted does lower the
>> quality in time but to little is very bad.
>
> how big is your roaster? if you're only going through one batch of
> espresso in a week, i'd have to suggest that your roaster is too big,
> or you haven't learned how to control it for smaller roasts (or both).
> it's not bad to be optimistic when purchasing equipment (heck, i have
> a 40qt mixer), but one must learn to manage the overcapacity while
> maintaining quality, as best one can.
>
>> So there it is for better or worst. Think of this the next time your
>> local isn't as good as what you make at home.
>
> we don't brew coffee at home, we get more than enough at work.

> --barry "18 years as a single store roaster/retailer"

Barry I admit that my "running a coffee shop doesn't have a lot
to do with making coffee" was misleading. What I meant is that regardless of
what quality coffee you serve, there is a lot more to running a viable
business. I come from an engineering background and my wife from an IT
background. Learning to "run" a business, despite learning as much as we
could before we even started, i an on going process.

The roaster is a Ambex YM-10. The smallest load of green is 1Kilo (2.2 lbs)
and the max being 10 Kilo (app 22 lbs). In reality, anything less then 5 lbs
is just to dicey to get consistant results. That may be my skill level or
the BTU output vs. mass. In the other hand, over 18 lbs starts giving me
very long roast times that effect the flavor badly. Checking my logs, I
roast between 5 to 10 pounds once a week. If I need espresso for one of our
rest. customers it's closer to the 10 lbs. I "schedule" roasting twice a
week. often there is a third day in a week.

I would love to serve coffee roasated just 3 or 4 days ago but given the
volume that we presently have, it's just not happening. The majority of the
general public is going to know the difference between 1 week old and 2 week
old coffee. At the present level of cup, bulk and commercial sales, I just
can't guarantee the 1 week max. and right now I can't afford to toss a lot
of coffee. I will admit that a pound or two of older coffee will make it's
way to my kitchen or a relatives. BTW I doen't consider flavored coffee to
even be coffee.
I know I have to learn a lot more about coffee and running a business.
Enough that maybe I shouldn't have opend my virtual mouth like I am an
expert ot any of this. I plead a bad day and a lack of connection between
brain and fingers.

Bob (1 3/4 years of trying to be a single store roaster retailer)
P.S. If you have any suggestions on how to improve my small batchs, I would
be vary greatful)

--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 11 Dec 2006 12:14:50
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

2 Kg's of coffee isn't that much in a retail environment...

We have a 5 kg roaster, and the lowest we will go is just over 3. Having
said that we don't put 5 in it either.

The current plan (d) is to get a diedrich ir12 or similar to allow for a
wider range of roast quantities :)

(plan e is an even bigger roaster again, but thats a wee way down the track)

Brent

> The roaster is a Ambex YM-10. The smallest load of green is 1Kilo (2.2
> lbs) and the max being 10 Kilo (app 22 lbs). In reality, anything less
> then 5 lbs is just to dicey to get consistant results. That may be my
> skill level or the BTU output vs. mass. In the other hand, over 18 lbs
> starts giving me very long roast times that effect the flavor badly.
> Checking my logs, I roast between 5 to 10 pounds once a week. If I need
> espresso for one of our rest. customers it's closer to the 10 lbs. I
> "schedule" roasting twice a week. often there is a third day in a week.
>
> I would love to serve coffee roasated just 3 or 4 days ago but given the
> volume that we presently have, it's just not happening. The majority of
> the general public is going to know the difference between 1 week old and
> 2 week old coffee. At the present level of cup, bulk and commercial sales,
> I just can't guarantee the 1 week max. and right now I can't afford to
> toss a lot of coffee. I will admit that a pound or two of older coffee
> will make it's way to my kitchen or a relatives. BTW I doen't consider
> flavored coffee to even be coffee.
> I know I have to learn a lot more about coffee and running a business.
> Enough that maybe I shouldn't have opend my virtual mouth like I am an
> expert ot any of this. I plead a bad day and a lack of connection between
> brain and fingers.
>
> Bob (1 3/4 years of trying to be a single store roaster retailer)
> P.S. If you have any suggestions on how to improve my small batchs, I
> would be vary greatful)
>
> --
> --
> Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
> www.moondoggiecoffee.com
>

Date: 11 Dec 2006 01:34:55
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
Brent entered:

> 2 Kg's of coffee isn't that much in a retail environment...
>
> We have a 5 kg roaster, and the lowest we will go is just over 3.
> Having said that we don't put 5 in it either.
>
> The current plan (d) is to get a diedrich ir12 or similar to allow
> for a wider range of roast quantities :)
>
> (plan e is an even bigger roaster again, but thats a wee way down the
> track)
> Brent
>
>
>> The roaster is a Ambex YM-10. The smallest load of green is 1Kilo
>> (2.2 lbs) and the max being 10 Kilo (app 22 lbs). In reality,
>> anything less then 5 lbs is just to dicey to get consistant results.
>> That may be my skill level or the BTU output vs. mass. In the
>> other hand, over 18 lbs starts giving me very long roast times that
>> effect the flavor badly. Checking my logs, I roast between 5 to 10
>> pounds once a week. If I need espresso for one of our rest.
>> customers it's closer to the 10 lbs. I "schedule" roasting twice a
>> week. often there is a third day in a week.

I think in pounds but I agree that the 'limits" are like gas mileage
numbers, look at them and smirk.
We got the 10 at a discount. Someone ordered it and never paid. We were
looking at the 5. Glad it didn't happen.
Our plan B is to replace the 10 in the store with something smaller,
tabletop model. As soon as we find some commercial space and install the 10
as roaster A. The current forecast is for this to happen early 1st quarter
2010. <grin >
Bob

>> --
>> --
>> Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
>> www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 11 Dec 2006 16:48:39
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

> We got the 10 at a discount. Someone ordered it and never paid. We were
> looking at the 5. Glad it didn't happen.

hmm, we are wondering if we shouldn't have bought a 10...

> Our plan B is to replace the 10 in the store with something smaller,
> tabletop model. As soon as we find some commercial space and install the
> 10 as roaster A. The current forecast is for this to happen early 1st
> quarter 2010. <grin>

now be careful not to rush things :)

(just spoke to a money person, can't see plan e happening for a while yet,
but d is looking OK for next year)

Brent

> Bob
>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
>>> www.moondoggiecoffee.com
>
>

Date: 08 Dec 2006 01:20:16
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Date: 08 Dec 2006 02:46:20
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
Marshall entered:

> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06 GMT, "The Other Funk"
> <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
>> A while back I mentioned that in order to keep serving quality
>> coffee, you must first take care of running your business. This led
>> to some readers to think that this is responsible for mediocre
>> coffee. I chose the subject line because it's not the usual pick two
>> but rather a balance of all three. These are all my opinions and may
>> not apply to anyone else's shop.
>> We will have been in business for 2 years in March 2007. Please note
>> that we are a small roaster and gift shop in addition to selling
>> coffee by the cup.
>
>> www.moondoggiecoffee.com
>
> Every retailer deals with the same issues. There is no disgrace in
> selling six-day old coffee. I would guess some customers just wait for
> the next batch.
>
> You have a very nice website. But, I have to tell you I told Gidget
> about your name (she had to turn her hearing aid up to hear me), and
> she wonders what a Moondoggie is doing in Bergen County.
>
> Marshall "another nice beach day in L.A."

I don't consider it a "disgrace". I have heard some people say, and not just
here, that selling six day old coffee is not a gourmet coffee. I immediatly
know that they are not in the retail business.
Moondoggie was the nikname of one of our Basset Hounds who bayed at the
moon. It's Casey on the banner. She passed away shortly before we opened. :(
Not only was Moondoggie James Darin's character in the Gidget movies but
there was a 50's beat poet by that name in the East Village. He used to
stand in one of the parks an scream his poetry.
Bob

--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 08 Dec 2006 03:08:50
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 02:46:20 GMT, "The Other Funk"
<bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote:

>I have heard some people say, and not just
>here, that selling six day old coffee is not a gourmet coffee. I immediatly
>know that they are not in the retail business.

You could also infer they are in need of a CRE.

There's mountains of [1,2,3,4...any number you like] day old
'specialty' coffee that is not, never was and never will be, gourmet.

Depends on the coffee, the roast AND how it's stored... some espresso
blends are best on days 5-7.

Whenever I screw up my courage enough to order an espresso in a shop,
I always ask "When was it roasted?" If the PBTC proudly exclaims
"Yesterday!" I say "That's OK, just gimme a [whatever else is likely
to be at least slightly palatable.]"

Date: 08 Dec 2006 03:31:13
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 03:08:50 GMT, "I- >Ian" <someone@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>Whenever I screw up my courage enough to order an espresso in a shop,
>I always ask "When was it roasted?" If the PBTC proudly exclaims
>"Yesterday!" I say "That's OK, just gimme a [whatever else is likely
>to be at least slightly palatable.]"

too bad you'll miss out on some great espresso.

Date: 08 Dec 2006 06:32:24
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 03:31:13 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 03:08:50 GMT, "I->Ian" <someone@nowhere.com>
>wrote:
>
> >Whenever I screw up my courage enough to order an espresso in a shop,
> >I always ask "When was it roasted?" If the PBTC proudly exclaims
> >"Yesterday!" I say "That's OK, just gimme a [whatever else is likely
> >to be at least slightly palatable.]"
>
>too bad you'll miss out on some great espresso.

Unless the shop is known to produce an exceptional shot,
it's a risk I'm willing to take.

Date: 10 Dec 2006 05:59:34
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

I- >Ian wrote:
> If you keep slagging audiophiles, there's every likelihood you shall
> predecease me.

Even HP, if he dropped into my listening room, would be hard pressed to
call me anything other than an audiophile.

Call me a thinking audiophile.

Date: 10 Dec 2006 05:59:27
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Date: 07 Dec 2006 16:55:48
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Which is why I'm drinking at home. I go out for socialization, not quality
coffee. I drink at home for taste. I understand the problems the shops
have and the difficulty of making a profit. But I have learned that very
few shops produce a drinkable cup for 65 cents with unlimited refills [the
standard in this neck of the woods].

"The Other Funk" <bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote in message
news:_G_dh.137$uh.35@trnddc07...
> So there it is for better or worst. Think of this the next time your local
> isn't as good as what you make at home.
> Thanks for reading
> Bob
> --
> --
> Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
> www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 07 Dec 2006 23:29:06
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
Harry Moos entered:

> Which is why I'm drinking at home. I go out for socialization, not
> quality coffee. I drink at home for taste. I understand the
> problems the shops have and the difficulty of making a profit. But I
> have learned that very few shops produce a drinkable cup for 65 cents
> with unlimited refills [the standard in this neck of the woods].
>
> "The Other Funk" <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote in message
> news:_G_dh.137$uh.35@trnddc07...
>> So there it is for better or worst. Think of this the next time your
>> local isn't as good as what you make at home.
>> Thanks for reading
>> Bob
$1.25 for 12oz, refill costs a buck. This put our price between DD and *$.
DD raised their prices so now we are a little closer to them. This is for a
paper cup which is nowhere near the quality of a pre-heated ceramic cup. The
diner down the street charges $0.95 for a 10oz take out that came from a 10
lb can and sat on a warmer. Him I've got beat.
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 07 Dec 2006 14:34:28
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

I- >Ian wrote:
> Many people have demonstrated many times they can detect the cable in
> a system close to 90% of the time. The only limititation is that it is
> cables with which they are familiar, speaker or audio interconnect.

We need some validated evidence of controlled, double-blind, ABX
testing, Ian, before that kind of claim can be taken seriously.

Will
(Who has six figures of speakers and electronics, thus is not
"anti-audiophile."

BTW, Matthew, it isn't 90/10 in high end audio, its more like 98/2.

Date: 07 Dec 2006 23:13:25
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On 7 Dec 2006 14:34:28 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>
>I->Ian wrote:
>> Many people have demonstrated many times they can detect the cable in
>> a system close to 90% of the time. The only limititation is that it is
>> cables with which they are familiar, speaker or audio interconnect.
>
>We need some validated evidence of controlled, double-blind, ABX
>testing, Ian, before that kind of claim can be taken seriously.
>

I doubt you can still get the data, but about 20 years ago I ran a
Double Blind ABX cable test at the AES convention in LA. Up until the
point I was too tired from giving the spiel, I had about 85% accuracy.
[And that was with crap DAT source material. Some times, on the same
test, many listeners wrote NONE due to the "inaudible error
correction." I wrote on my form that I WAS too tired to tell, but the
AES insisted on counting what I considered invalid tests.]

Ditto many, many others who took the tests, including a few I can
remember
Noel Lee from Monster Cable
Rod [from SOTA]
Lauren [engineer for Janis Ian]

The problem is that when taken with the great unwashed, all the
results 'proved' was that it was not possible for everyone to tell.

Ditto on the "Absolute Phase" and "Thermionic Valve vs Transpistor"
tests.

>Will
>(Who has six figures of speakers and electronics
Used to, but got wiser and moved the decimal point a place or two to
the left!!

>, thus is not
>"anti-audiophile."
>
Me either. I'm anti-stupidity

>BTW, Matthew, it isn't 90/10 in high end audio, its more like 98/2.
An order of magnitude more generous than YHS.

Date: 08 Dec 2006 15:21:39
From:
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

In alt.coffee, Omniryx@gmail.com <Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote:

> BTW, Matthew, it isn't 90/10 in high end audio, its more like 98/2.

Without arguing about the exact numbers, I agree. Back in the '80's,
during my audiophile days, my upper-midfi system sounded damn good when
everything was tweaked up and adjusted. I could hear depth and width and
placement on the soundstage, and could pick out how many overdubs Annie
Lenox used at various points in a song.

While my system did NOT reproduce ultra-low bass, the other stuff was at
least 90 percent of what I'd hear on high-end systems (if the stars were
aligned that day, of course).

--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

Date: 07 Dec 2006 12:40:30
From:
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

The Other Funk wrote:
> I would love to be able to roast only enough espresso to only last 2 or 3
> days. The reality is that if the batch lasts 6 days, I can not afford to
> throw it out. I do try to roast only enough but I can not afford to run out.
> Sorry we have no espresso is not a way to keep customers.

Not to mention that I doubt anyone here could tell 6 days from 8 in a
blind test - especially for the brewed coffee. Too much of what gets
discussed in any 'enthusiast' forum is just plain voodoo, whether it's
oil for cars, cables for speakers or bean age for espresso. There
seems to be a 90-10 rule in play in these situations: it takes 10% of
the effort to get the 90% of the gain, the other 90% of the effort to
get the rest. Sure there's crappy no-spec oil, thin unshielded cable
and ancient preground, but that's the level we are talking about
'settling' for here.

Matthew

Date: 07 Dec 2006 20:51:40
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
mandtprice@gmail.com entered:

> The Other Funk wrote:
>> I would love to be able to roast only enough espresso to only last 2
>> or 3 days. The reality is that if the batch lasts 6 days, I can not
>> afford to throw it out. I do try to roast only enough but I can not
>> afford to run out. Sorry we have no espresso is not a way to keep
>> customers.
>
> Not to mention that I doubt anyone here could tell 6 days from 8 in a
> blind test - especially for the brewed coffee. Too much of what gets
> discussed in any 'enthusiast' forum is just plain voodoo, whether it's
> oil for cars, cables for speakers or bean age for espresso. There
> seems to be a 90-10 rule in play in these situations: it takes 10% of
> the effort to get the 90% of the gain, the other 90% of the effort to
> get the rest. Sure there's crappy no-spec oil, thin unshielded cable
> and ancient preground, but that's the level we are talking about
> 'settling' for here.
>
> Matthew

I can taste a change but I don't find the 8 day old objectionable.
In my previous career I was an electrical engineer and can tell you that
speaker cables do not have any measurable differences, unless the are real
crap, wether you pay a dollar or ten dollars a foot and any good quality
connector doesn't make a difference.
Bob

--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 07 Dec 2006 22:19:32
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:51:40 GMT, "The Other Funk"
<bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote:

>In my previous career I was an electrical engineer

Making what, toasters? ;-) [Infrared Flame]

It's not whether the cables are measureable, it's whether they are
audible.

Many people have demonstrated many times they can detect the cable in
a system close to 90% of the time. The only limititation is that it is
cables with which they are familiar, speaker or audio interconnect.

Ditto several other 'unmeasurable' items like :
CD Mat
VPI Bricks
Power Conditioner

Given an 'identical roast' of the same, and decently roasted, beans,
from 1 day to 10 days old, I'll wager whatever you are willing to lose
that a fair number here would be able to correctly order a series of
brews by a day or two.

And I'll give you odds that some could better that by half!

Date: 07 Dec 2006 23:18:00
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:51:40 GMT, "The Other Funk"
> <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
>> In my previous career I was an electrical engineer
>
> Making what, toasters? ;-) [Infrared Flame]
>
> It's not whether the cables are measureable, it's whether they are
> audible.
>
> Many people have demonstrated many times they can detect the cable in
> a system close to 90% of the time. The only limititation is that it is
> cables with which they are familiar, speaker or audio interconnect.
>
> Ditto several other 'unmeasurable' items like :
> CD Mat
> VPI Bricks
> Power Conditioner
>
> Given an 'identical roast' of the same, and decently roasted, beans,
> from 1 day to 10 days old, I'll wager whatever you are willing to lose
> that a fair number here would be able to correctly order a series of
> brews by a day or two.
>
> And I'll give you odds that some could better that by half!

No bet. :)
Measureable differences and subjective differences are not the same thing.
I would love to have a clientele that could tell the difference between day
1 and day 10 and would clean out my stock that fast. Truth is that that
99.99...% of my customers can't tell. They are just thrilled not to have 1
to 10 month old coffee. If there is a business that can produce enough to
only fill orders on hand plus a coffee shop inventory, I wish them all the
best but I can't compete 1 on 1 with them.

As an engineer I was involved with calibration & maintence of test
equipment, cell phone radio systems and communication networks. I can tell
bad speaker cable from good but not good from better.
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 07 Dec 2006 23:41:45
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:18:00 GMT, "The Other Funk"
<bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote:

> I can tell
>bad speaker cable from good but not good from better.

Bet you can... just takes more training and effort

Which brings me to my 'talen't rant.

Almost no one ever argues that Sinatra / Streisand / Peters /
Pavarotti / Garrett et al _can't_ sing because they have an obvious
'talent'.

However, all manner of _untalented_ knob dickers will argue until they
are blue in the face that "If I can't measure it, 'it' does not exist"

For example,
I couldn't give a rat's ass about frequency response, but f.up the
temporal relationships and I'm all over you like a dirty shirt. That's
a 'talent' My wife has perfect pitch and is much more annoyed by
frequency response anomalies. That's a 'talent' A great engineer
friend has both 'talents' and exceeds both my and my wife's abilities.

It's well proven there are super tasters. It's just not well proven
there are super hearers. Heck, people used think the earth was round
and revovled around the sun. How dumb is that!

Date: 08 Dec 2006 02:36:59
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:18:00 GMT, "The Other Funk"
> <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
>> I can tell
>> bad speaker cable from good but not good from better.
>
> Bet you can... just takes more training and effort
Nah. When my parents told me to turn down the stereo, I got headphones. Plus
I am into the senior hearng loss age. :)
I did work with a superhearing blessed individual. Sometimes it was scary
when we did audio testing. He could "hear" digital artifacts that no one
else could. After a bit, we justed took his word for it and pulled out the
testgear. Saved some time and effort.
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 08 Dec 2006 10:40:52
From: bernie
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

mandtprice@gmail.com wrote:
> The Other Funk wrote:
>
>>I would love to be able to roast only enough espresso to only last 2 or 3
>>days. The reality is that if the batch lasts 6 days, I can not afford to
>>throw it out. I do try to roast only enough but I can not afford to run out.
>>Sorry we have no espresso is not a way to keep customers.
>
>
> Not to mention that I doubt anyone here could tell 6 days from 8 in a
> blind test - especially for the brewed coffee. Too much of what gets
> discussed in any 'enthusiast' forum is just plain voodoo, whether it's
> oil for cars, cables for speakers or bean age for espresso. There
> seems to be a 90-10 rule in play in these situations: it takes 10% of
> the effort to get the 90% of the gain, the other 90% of the effort to
> get the rest. Sure there's crappy no-spec oil, thin unshielded cable
> and ancient preground, but that's the level we are talking about
> 'settling' for here.
>
> Matthew
>

Oooh, oooh, oooh!!! Hey, Matthew, can I use that moniker, "Voodoo",
for my next blend if it isn't already trademarked? "Voodoo Ear". The
audio/coffee 'ophiles could spend all day in my place discussing
infintesimal nuances. I thank you.
Bernie

Date: 08 Dec 2006 10:38:33
From: DavidMLewis
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

The Other Funk wrote:
> > On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:51:40 GMT, "The Other Funk"

> > Given an 'identical roast' of the same, and decently roasted, beans,
> > from 1 day to 10 days old, I'll wager whatever you are willing to lose
> > that a fair number here would be able to correctly order a series of
> > brews by a day or two.
> >
> > And I'll give you odds that some could better that by half!
>
> No bet. :)
> Measureable differences and subjective differences are not the same thing.
> I would love to have a clientele that could tell the difference between day
> 1 and day 10 and would clean out my stock that fast. Truth is that that
> 99.99...% of my customers can't tell. They are just thrilled not to have 1
> to 10 month old coffee. If there is a business that can produce enough to
> only fill orders on hand plus a coffee shop inventory, I wish them all the
> best but I can't compete 1 on 1 with them.
>
According to Chris Tacy, Stumptown determined that the Hairbender they
pulled shots of in their stores tasted best 3-4 days out of the
roaster. At least at that time, which was a couple of years ago, he
said that all the stores had a three-day-old bin and a four-day-old
bin. They started in the morning with the four-day-old, and if they
finished it they moved on to the three-day-old. If there was any left
in the four-day-old bin at the end of the day, they gave it to the
homeless. He didn't give any statistics on how often that happened, but
if you're in a non-competitive geographical location you might get
someone to tell you. Statistically, a store with more business seems
like it would have the problem less often, large numbers being on your
side in this sort of thing. Then you'd have to figure out if the cost
of what you'd wind up giving away was offset by the increased business.

I think it's a mistake, as a business owner, to ask something like "how
many of my customers would notice if the coffee was ten days out of the
roaster instead of four?" They may well not even be aware that
something was missing from the experience. They just don't have so
pleasurable an experience that they're drawn back, and many factors
have to be right for that to happen. That's the question you have to
ask: are my customers given enough pleasure to be drawn back here?

Best,
David

Date: 08 Dec 2006 16:50:03
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

And that pleasure may have nothing to do with the coffee. At lunch the
other day, we were discussing the coffee at our favorite gathering place.
One of the guys said, "It's only coffee! Who cares what it tastes like?"
Well, obviously, I do. But he may represent the majority opinion. So what
keeps us coming back [every Wednesday for nearly eight years now]? Price.
The coffee is cheap -- 65 cents for unlimited refills. The donuts. Best in
town. The manager. A very pleasant lady who treats us like we are special
customers. A decent, smoke-free environment. Nothing elaborate, but clean.
Parking. Always plenty of room without circling the block a dozen times.
The coffee quality? Much better since she installed a water filter system.
Drinkable, but not outstanding. But all in all, enough pleasure to keep us
coming back. Not once in all that time have we ventured into the paper cup
shop across the street.

"DavidMLewis" <DavidMLewis@mac.com > wrote in message
news:1165603113.446237.238420@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I think it's a mistake, as a business owner, to ask something like "how
> many of my customers would notice if the coffee was ten days out of the
> roaster instead of four?" They may well not even be aware that
> something was missing from the experience. They just don't have so
> pleasurable an experience that they're drawn back, and many factors
> have to be right for that to happen. That's the question you have to
> ask: are my customers given enough pleasure to be drawn back here?
>
> Best,
> David
>

Date: 09 Dec 2006 18:44:04
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
DavidMLewis entered:

> I think it's a mistake, as a business owner, to ask something like
> "how many of my customers would notice if the coffee was ten days out
> of the roaster instead of four?" They may well not even be aware that
> something was missing from the experience. They just don't have so
> pleasurable an experience that they're drawn back, and many factors
> have to be right for that to happen. That's the question you have to
> ask: are my customers given enough pleasure to be drawn back here?
>
> Best,
> David

I don't believe that you should sacrifice the quality of your product just
to amke a few more bucks because in the long run it will bite you in the
ass. I have 2 regular weekday straight espresso drinkers that have no
hesitation to let me know if my quality slips. TPBTC is no longer with us. I
also taste the espresso as pulled by the staff.
That being said, I do believe that the total experiance is what brings
customers back. And that experiance is more then just the coffee.
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 09 Dec 2006 19:52:21
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 18:44:04 GMT, "The Other Funk"
<bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote:

> That being said, I do believe that the total experiance is what brings
>customers back. And that experiance is more then just the coffee.

The flip side is that if the place reaches a critical mass as a cool
hang, then the coffee quality often slips. The noob baristas don't get
enough time to learn / have the motivation to make great coffee. A few
weeks later semi-noobs are training uber-noobs and so on until all
that are served are full moon lungos and the PTBC exclaims "Wow! Look
at that crema!" as they set the cup on the bar, to the delight of the
_cognoscenti_

Date: 09 Dec 2006 20:19:05
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 18:44:04 GMT, "The Other Funk"
> <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
>> That being said, I do believe that the total experiance is what
>> brings customers back. And that experiance is more then just the
>> coffee.
>
> The flip side is that if the place reaches a critical mass as a cool
> hang, then the coffee quality often slips. The noob baristas don't get
> enough time to learn / have the motivation to make great coffee. A few
> weeks later semi-noobs are training uber-noobs and so on until all
> that are served are full moon lungos and the PTBC exclaims "Wow! Look
> at that crema!" as they set the cup on the bar, to the delight of the
> _cognoscenti_

Definetly something to make sure never happens.
The nice thing about being a hands on Mom and Pop shop is that Pop's bark is
worse then anything you can imagine and Mom doesn't bark, just bites.

We have had offers to open a second shop but politely refused to even
consider since we felt we couldn't supervise two locations as well as we
would like right now. The financing was always a little vague too. :)

Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 08 Dec 2006 10:00:18
From:
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

bernie wrote:
> Oooh, oooh, oooh!!! Hey, Matthew, can I use that moniker, "Voodoo",
> for my next blend if it isn't already trademarked? "Voodoo Ear". The
> audio/coffee 'ophiles could spend all day in my place discussing
> infintesimal nuances. I thank you.
> Bernie

Don't forget to wave a dead chicken at the roaster, that's always
necessary to get that extra bit of body. Real presence, though, comes
from the blood sprinkled on the grinder hopper and a dab on the filter
handle.

Matthew

Date: 08 Dec 2006 09:13:44
From:
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

The Other Funk wrote:
> I don't consider it a "disgrace". I have heard some people say, and not just
> here, that selling six day old coffee is not a gourmet coffee. I immediatly
> know that they are not in the retail business.
> Moondoggie was the nikname of one of our Basset Hounds who bayed at the
> moon. It's Casey on the banner. She passed away shortly before we opened. :(
> Not only was Moondoggie James Darin's character in the Gidget movies but
> there was a 50's beat poet by that name in the East Village. He used to
> stand in one of the parks an scream his poetry.
> Bob

This all reminds me of the best Starbucks experience I've ever had.
Someone at work gave me a starbucks gift card, he knew I was 'into'
coffee <sigh >. I was on the road with no coffee and remembered I had
that card in my wallet. I stopped at one of their stores and ordered a
brewed coffee. The PBTC turned to the brew tank, saw the sight glass
was low and made a face. She asked me if I wanted to reorder since she
would have to make a fresh brew but I told her I'd wait. After about 5
minutes she called me up to the counter and handed me my cup. I tried
to hand her my card but she refused with an apology for the wait. If I
had a secret camera I'd have my timing down: free fresh coffee, what a
country!

Matthew

Date: 08 Dec 2006 05:28:09
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Oh, the myth of the Golden Ears continues. Everybody knows someone
with Golden Ears. Or knows someone who knows someone. Or knows
someone who used to know someone who lived across the street from
someone who knew someone in Kansas back in ought-six.

But (without meaning to offend you, Ian) the data can somehow never
quite be found. I'm not talking about "measurements" (sorry,
engineers, I guess your whole discipline is for naught), I'm talking
about tightly controlled, double-blind ABS comparisons. Either it was
too many years ago and the data have been lost, or the people who did
the study never published it and have all died or retired to Swaziland,
or (my personal fave) "I don't need ya stinkin' comparisons, I know
what I can hee-ya."

Uh huh. Yeah. Right. You bet.

Mind you, it doesn't bother me that people spend absurd sums on green
lights and Tice clocks, and little speaker pylons, and
99.99999999999999% oxygen-free copper wire. I have spent absurd sums
on my own, for speakers and electronics, and I'm quite sure I could, as
Ian has, downgrade and remain perfectly content.

What I object to--when I don't find it laughable--is the odd notion
that unsubstantiated claims should be taken at face value, or on the
authority of some self-proclaimed expert, absent any meaningful
evidence in support of those assertions.

If you think you can hear a difference between two meters of zip cord
($3.00) versus two meters of Monster Cable ($300.00) versus two meters
of Silversmith Silver ($3,000.00), then you go right ahead and think
that. Just don't claim that there IS a difference; be honest and say I
THINK there is a difference.

Unless you can prove it.

Date: 08 Dec 2006 12:15:25
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

In article
<1165584489.506735.43870@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com >,
"Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com > wrote:

> Oh, the myth of the Golden Ears continues. Everybody knows someone
> with Golden Ears. Or knows someone who knows someone. Or knows
> someone who used to know someone who lived across the street from
> someone who knew someone in Kansas back in ought-six.

How do you define "Golden Ears"? I live not far from the National
Research Council audio research lab in Ottawa, Canada. I've
participated in a number of blind testings (from which I know I
have pretty average hearing :-( ).

At least one person I've come to know there has, if not Golden
Ears, certainly repeatable ears. He has demonstrated the ability
to identify the same setup 100% of the time. That is, listen,
change SOMETHING, change, change, change - 100 % hits on which was
A, which was B, and which was C etc. And not only sequentially.
One can do that, invite him back a week later and play a system -
he'll tell you which it was!

I've bought a fair amount of equipment on his recommendation and
am quite happy...

--
M for N in address to mail reply

Date: 08 Dec 2006 20:45:34
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On 8 Dec 2006 05:28:09 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Oh, the myth of the Golden Ears continues. Everybody knows someone
>with Golden Ears. Or knows someone who knows someone. Or knows
>someone who used to know someone who lived across the street from
>someone who knew someone in Kansas back in ought-six.
>

If you want to foot the bill, I'll arrange for as many charlatans as
you'd like to come and demonstrate.

>But (without meaning to offend you, Ian) the data can somehow never
>quite be found.
I have no idea if the AES still has the test sheets. The facts are as
stated.

> I'm not talking about "measurements" (sorry,
>engineers, I guess your whole discipline is for naught), I'm talking
>about tightly controlled, double-blind ABS comparisons. Either it was
>too many years ago and the data have been lost, or the people who did
>the study never published it and have all died or retired to Swaziland,
>or (my personal fave) "I don't need ya stinkin' comparisons, I know
>what I can hee-ya."
>

What part of "Double Blind ABX" didn't you understand?
All equipment was behind a curtain.
The person making the changes did not communicate with the
participants.
When a test was A-A or B-B, cables were removed and re inserted to
ensure a consistent interval between tests.
The AES defined the protocol.

>Uh huh. Yeah. Right. You bet.
>
As we say, F...in' A!

>Mind you, it doesn't bother me that people spend absurd sums on green
>lights and Tice clocks, and little speaker pylons, and
>99.99999999999999% oxygen-free copper wire. I have spent absurd sums
>on my own, for speakers and electronics, and I'm quite sure I could, as
>Ian has, downgrade and remain perfectly content.
>
>What I object to--when I don't find it laughable--is the odd notion
>that unsubstantiated claims should be taken at face value, or on the
>authority of some self-proclaimed expert, absent any meaningful
>evidence in support of those assertions.
>

The problem is that too many yabos claim some particular talent when
in fact they have none. AND some are too insecure to say they can't
detect 'it'. As always, caveat emptor. If some pratt says 'this' is
the best thing since sliced bread and it's clearly not, tell him you
can't detect 'it'. There are several possibilities:
Only he can detect it
He and a few others can detect it
Many can detect it
Almost everyone can detect it
Many can't detect it.
Only a few can't detect it
Only you can't detect it.

>If you think you can hear a difference between two meters of zip cord
>($3.00) versus two meters of Monster Cable ($300.00) versus two meters
>of Silversmith Silver ($3,000.00), then you go right ahead and think
>that. Just don't claim that there IS a difference; be honest and say I
>THINK there is a difference.

I and others maintain there is an audible difference _detectable to
some_ between devices. It flies in the face of reason that you can
make change after change and have no audible change. What we don't
claim is that the one at $3000 will be better.

>
>Unless you can prove it.
To whom and to what end? There will always be naysayers that the test
was invalid because [insert favorite invalidation phrase here]

Some have repeatedly demonstrated an unassailable consistency in their
ability to detect changes. By researching and particpating, one soon
winnows out the wheat from the chaffe. If Jim Schulman or Ken Fox, to
name but two, postulate an unproven espresso theory, then many here
take it as written. OTOH, some gits immediately cry bunkum.

Date: 08 Dec 2006 13:11:48
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

I- >Ian wrote a passionate and somewhat irascible rejoinder to my attack
on Golden Ears. Alas, nothing he said contradicts my conclusion, which
I will be bold enough to repeat.

> >If you think you can hear a difference between two meters of zip cord
> >($3.00) versus two meters of Monster Cable ($300.00) versus two meters
> >of Silversmith Silver ($3,000.00), then you go right ahead and think
> >that. Just don't claim that there IS a difference; be honest and say I
> >THINK there is a difference.

By the way, Ian, "to whom and to what end" is one of the sillier things
I've heard you say. If that were valid reasoning, we would still be in
the pre-scientific era and all the scientists and engineers, on this
list and around the world, would have gone to school for naught.

BTW, Ian, do you claim to hear those cable differences on Spicas? That
really WOULD amaze me. The Spica is a very nice, listenable speaker
but it would not spring immediately to my mind as an analytical speaker
of the type often used for this kind of comparison.

But, bowing to your conviction, if you will give me your snail address
I'll send you a dollar toward your next set of Valhallas.

Date: 08 Dec 2006 21:23:21
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On 8 Dec 2006 13:11:48 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>But, bowing to your conviction, if you will give me your snail address
>I'll send you a dollar toward your next set of Valhallas

I plan on passing on the Spicas in my will.

Date: 08 Dec 2006 11:16:10
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Neal Reid wrote:
> At least one person I've come to know there has, if not Golden
> Ears, certainly repeatable ears. He has demonstrated the ability
> to identify the same setup 100% of the time. That is, listen,
> change SOMETHING, change, change, change - 100 % hits on which was
> A, which was B, and which was C etc. And not only sequentially.
> One can do that, invite him back a week later and play a system -
> he'll tell you which it was!

I wouldn't argue that such people do not exist. Ian's wife and I have
perfect pitch but most people do not. (Actually, mine is not quite
perfect; I cannot detect deviations smaller than about 10 cents, which
is about ten percent of the way between two adjacent white keys on the
piano.) Unusual abilities exist. But they are...unusual.

Mozart, when he was a child, heard the Allegri "Miserere" one time,
went home and wrote out all the parts--vocal and instrumental--from
memory. He made only one mistake and musicologists generally agree
that the single note he substituted was a better choice than Allegri's
original.

But if you look at the number of esoteric audio gadgets that are sold
to gullible clucks (such as I have been from time to time), you will
never be able to look anyone in the eye and argue that there are that
many audio Mozarts.

If you want to bankrupt the whole high-end audio business, require that
individuals who wish to purchase equipment be able to demonstrate that
they can hear what they are buying on a well controlled ABX basis.
Your friend and the few like him will not be enough to keep even one
store in business.

Date: 11 Dec 2006 12:09:12
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

What happened to the coffee? :)

For what it's worth, I flatted with an audiophile, and was able to
appreciate the differences as his system jumped in value to match the GDP of
a small country.

However, like coffee, at the end of the day if you obsess over the quality
of the gear, the good stuff gets passed over - the software.

Be it music or coffee, if you only look at he gear, you forget to enjoy the
reason for the gear.

:)

Brent

>
> Neal Reid wrote:
>> At least one person I've come to know there has, if not Golden
>> Ears, certainly repeatable ears. He has demonstrated the ability
>> to identify the same setup 100% of the time. That is, listen,
>> change SOMETHING, change, change, change - 100 % hits on which was
>> A, which was B, and which was C etc. And not only sequentially.
>> One can do that, invite him back a week later and play a system -
>> he'll tell you which it was!
>
> I wouldn't argue that such people do not exist. Ian's wife and I have
> perfect pitch but most people do not. (Actually, mine is not quite
> perfect; I cannot detect deviations smaller than about 10 cents, which
> is about ten percent of the way between two adjacent white keys on the
> piano.) Unusual abilities exist. But they are...unusual.
>
> Mozart, when he was a child, heard the Allegri "Miserere" one time,
> went home and wrote out all the parts--vocal and instrumental--from
> memory. He made only one mistake and musicologists generally agree
> that the single note he substituted was a better choice than Allegri's
> original.
>
> But if you look at the number of esoteric audio gadgets that are sold
> to gullible clucks (such as I have been from time to time), you will
> never be able to look anyone in the eye and argue that there are that
> many audio Mozarts.
>
> If you want to bankrupt the whole high-end audio business, require that
> individuals who wish to purchase equipment be able to demonstrate that
> they can hear what they are buying on a well controlled ABX basis.
> Your friend and the few like him will not be enough to keep even one
> store in business.
>

Date: 08 Dec 2006 11:05:36
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

> Don't forget to wave a dead chicken at the roaster, that's always
> necessary to get that extra bit of body. Real presence, though, comes
> from the blood sprinkled on the grinder hopper and a dab on the filter
> handle.
>
> Matthew

Now don't be sarcastic. It is well known that placing the cadaver of a
freshly killed chicken atop the left (not right!!!) speaker will align
the electrons, remove subspace disturbances, and balance the ethers,
resulting in sound that is clearer, purer, truer...."as though a veil
had been lifted." The optimum time since death seems to about 24-36
hours. After that, there will be a certain amount of degassing...

So if it works with audio, why shouldn't it work with coffee roasters???

Date: 08 Dec 2006 18:15:59
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

The Other Funk wrote:
> A while back I mentioned that in order to keep serving quality coffee,
> you must first take care of running your business. This led to some
> readers to think that this is responsible for mediocre coffee. I chose
> the subject line because it's not the usual pick two but rather a
> balance of all three.-snip-

I can't balance the three, and am not ashamed of it. I hate to see
customers walk off, but sometimes they do. I educate the staff on
"managing the queue" - looking ahead and making eye contact with
people waiting to be served - smiling and if possible, taking the
order so immediate stuff like cold drinks can be dealt with and the
person on the espresso machine can merge upcoming orders with what
they are doing at the time - steaming some more milk or splitting
doubles on small or "weak" drink orders.

I freely admit that I'm not into "running" my business. Wish I could.
I stumble from one disaster to the next, happily (love the stress)
and am content that I can make the best espresso with the equipment I
use (I'm in the 90% camp, not the 100%), so I offer a product that far
exceeds anything else in my town, served as fast as I can (but with a
small wait when we are busy) and at an affordable price since this is
not an affluent town. I lost money for over 5 months and wasn't truly
solvent for a couple of years. I worked to keep every customer I got,
with friendly service and a consistent product.

We were talking about just this today. Over a year ago a food trailer
joined the market, selling oriental stir fry food. This town isn't
quite ready for this as a mainstream item just yet. Same with me when
I started - plenty of people told me I'd never succeed, but I stuck in
there. The new market stall soon had problems making ends meet and
widened his range - he now has a menu that has Sausage Butty, bacon
butty, portion of chips etc, with a tiny bit of what he actually
joined the market to sell. I call that selling out. He wouldn't (or
couldn't afford to) stay with his quality product, which tasted nice,
instead trying to compete with the already established burger vans in
the precinct. I never moved - I still sell the same product I started
with, with the same passion, same ingredients etc, and have built up a
good friendly crowd of regulars.

My coffee was roasted a while ago (couldn't tell you when), Is vacuum
packed in one-way valve bags, but is ground to order, and customers
tell me the espresso is the best they've had in the UK (Italians tell
me it is as good as home) - must be the robusta :) I don't claim it
to be the best you can buy - that's why I'm the 90% guy. But it's the
best round here, and I'm as happy to drink it as my customers. I
still concentrate on quality of product and service, and the other
business stuff seems to catch up OK.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 08 Dec 2006 17:09:21
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:15:59 +0000, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:

(snip)
>My coffee was roasted a while ago (couldn't tell you when), Is vacuum
>packed in one-way valve bags, but is ground to order, and customers
>tell me the espresso is the best they've had in the UK (Italians tell
>me it is as good as home) - must be the robusta :) I don't claim it
>to be the best you can buy - that's why I'm the 90% guy. But it's the
>best round here, and I'm as happy to drink it as my customers. I
>still concentrate on quality of product and service, and the other
>business stuff seems to catch up OK.

Great post. I want to stand in line at your cart someday, Danny.

To the original poster, sounds like you're doing things the right way.
Six day old espresso is nothing to be ashamed about if your shots
taste good to you and your customers are happy.

I generally have 2-3 roasting sessions per week, and I roast the beans
contained in our espresso blend at least twice per week, but in our
first year that was not the case. The locals get addicted to our
lattes and complain about how they can drink at chains anymore. But
they were saying the same things when the espresso blend was on the
sixth day during our first year.

The other thing to remember is that more than half of the customers
bury the espresso in milk and/or syrup. I sure as hell can't tell the
difference between 3 day old beans and 6 day old beans in a one shot
20 ounce latte with chocolate, caramel, hazelnut, and whipped cream.

The thing that drives me nuts is that there are so many places
delivering horrible drinks that people routinely pay four dollars for.
It doesn't take any more time to make a drink the right way, and it
doesn't take that much more planning to have relatively fresh beans.

I took a short vacation last week, and I had some truly awful drinks.
The sad thing is that the standard for the person behind the bar at
several different establishments was milk boiled with the no hands
method, espresso gushing out the spouts, and stale coffee sitting in
the doser. It's just so wrong. No wonder alt.coffee folks stay at
home and invest hundreds of dollars in equipment.

North Sullivan

Date: 09 Dec 2006 18:34:45
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
North Sullivan entered:

>
> I generally have 2-3 roasting sessions per week, and I roast the beans
> contained in our espresso blend at least twice per week, but in our
> first year that was not the case. The locals get addicted to our
> lattes and complain about how they can drink at chains anymore. But
> they were saying the same things when the espresso blend was on the
> sixth day during our first year.
Hey! Are you getting my customers and I am getting yours? :)

>
> The other thing to remember is that more than half of the customers
> bury the espresso in milk and/or syrup. I sure as hell can't tell the
> difference between 3 day old beans and 6 day old beans in a one shot
> 20 ounce latte with chocolate, caramel, hazelnut, and whipped cream.
I wish that only half my customers were the latte crowd. It's closer to
95:5 for espresso based drinks.

> North Sullivan
It's so good to hear from you and Danny that I am not really off track. It
sounds like with more customer education and planning on my part, things
will get better.
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 09 Dec 2006 09:11:16
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

North Sullivan wrote:

> Great post. I want to stand in line at your cart someday, Danny.
>
> To the original poster, sounds like you're doing things the right way.
> Six day old espresso is nothing to be ashamed about if your shots
> taste good to you and your customers are happy.
>
> I generally have 2-3 roasting sessions per week, and I roast the beans
> contained in our espresso blend at least twice per week, but in our
> first year that was not the case. The locals get addicted to our
> lattes and complain about how they can drink at chains anymore. But
> they were saying the same things when the espresso blend was on the
> sixth day during our first year.
>
> The other thing to remember is that more than half of the customers
> bury the espresso in milk and/or syrup. I sure as hell can't tell the
> difference between 3 day old beans and 6 day old beans in a one shot
> 20 ounce latte with chocolate, caramel, hazelnut, and whipped cream.
>
> The thing that drives me nuts is that there are so many places
> delivering horrible drinks that people routinely pay four dollars for.
> It doesn't take any more time to make a drink the right way, and it
> doesn't take that much more planning to have relatively fresh beans.
>
> I took a short vacation last week, and I had some truly awful drinks.
> The sad thing is that the standard for the person behind the bar at
> several different establishments was milk boiled with the no hands
> method, espresso gushing out the spouts, and stale coffee sitting in
> the doser. It's just so wrong. No wonder alt.coffee folks stay at
> home and invest hundreds of dollars in equipment.

Thanks North. I echo your sentiments completely re: bad coffee,
rip-off prices, unattended steaming etc. Serve the best you can at a
price that's affordable, not necessarily what the CEO thinks the
market can stand. Obviously, try and make money, and there can be an
error in being too cheap - people just think the coffee must be awful
if it's much cheaper than *$ or Costa.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 14 Dec 2006 20:58:22
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:09:21 -0600, North Sullivan
<northwrites@bluebottle.com > wrote:

>The sad thing is that the standard for the person behind the bar at
>several different establishments was milk boiled with the no hands
>method, espresso gushing out the spouts, and stale coffee sitting in
>the doser. It's just so wrong.

june interviewed an enthusiastic young lady who currently works at one
of the large bookstore/cafe chains. when june explained that i hate
to go into those places because i can hear the milk getting "killed"
no matter where i am in the store, she said something about the noise
being unavoidable. june stood up, walked over to the marzocco and
frothed up a pitcher of milk with minimal noise. the girl was
stunned. june's comment: "now, do you think you can unlearn all your
bad habits?"

i hope she can, because she seems to be pretty gung-ho about coffee
and the whole barista thing... she just lacks the quality experience.

--barry "i get to watch sunsets from the roaster now"

Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

Date: 09 Dec 2006 18:28:47
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Replies in line
Finding the keyboard operational
Danny entered:
>
> I can't balance the three, and am not ashamed of it. I hate to see
> customers walk off, but sometimes they do. I educate the staff on
> "managing the queue" - looking ahead and making eye contact with
> people waiting to be served - smiling and if possible, taking the
> order so immediate stuff like cold drinks can be dealt with and the
> person on the espresso machine can merge upcoming orders with what
> they are doing at the time - steaming some more milk or splitting
> doubles on small or "weak" drink orders.
To me, that *is* running your business. Give the people what they want.
>
> I freely admit that I'm not into "running" my business. Wish I could.
> I stumble from one disaster to the next, happily (love the stress)
To me stress involves arterial bleeding and a building fire.

> and am content that I can make the best espresso with the equipment I
> use (I'm in the 90% camp, not the 100%), so I offer a product that far
> exceeds anything else in my town, served as fast as I can (but with a
> small wait when we are busy) and at an affordable price since this is
> not an affluent town.
This is what I strive to do. Product, price, service. The product may not be
the panacea of espresso or even brewed coffee but you have to have the right
price point.

> I lost money for over 5 months and wasn't truly
> solvent for a couple of years. I worked to keep every customer I got,
> with friendly service and a consistent product.
It takes forever to win a customer and a second to lose one. Thats oneof te
things I make sure that the staff knows by heart.

<snip of some very good marketing advice >

> My coffee was roasted a while ago (couldn't tell you when), Is vacuum
> packed in one-way valve bags, but is ground to order, and customers
> tell me the espresso is the best they've had in the UK (Italians tell
> me it is as good as home) - must be the robusta :) I don't claim it
> to be the best you can buy - that's why I'm the 90% guy. But it's the
> best round here, and I'm as happy to drink it as my customers. I
> still concentrate on quality of product and service, and the other
> business stuff seems to catch up OK.
This is where I am at with the quality and customer service. Back to the
orginal point, notice that none of this has anything to do with "what is the
best brewer to buy" but is all about "running" a business.
Bob

--
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

Date: 09 Dec 2006 08:22:23
From: Felix
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Bob (The Other Funk) politely responds:
> While I wasn't going to going to feed this speaker cable
> debate, I have run this test more then once in 25 years.
> [...]
> There is a very big difference between cheap crap and
> good but measurements doen't support various large levels
> of good.

I think we're agreeing, albeit contentiously. My understanding is that
measurable differences often exist, but people disagree about their
relevance to audio signals.

Given the existence of "cheap crap" in this marketplace, we agree that
there's a proper subset of "good" products. The hard part is deciding
whether that subset is relatively large, whether it contains products
often sold at hardware/lighting stores, etc. As for coffee ...

I'm skeptical about the value of the star of the latest auction, partly
because I'm skeptical about my ability to discern the differences
between it and the coffees I usually drink. Saying that those expensive
beans are worth buying because some expert says they are, makes as much
sense as saying that they aren't worth buying because most people
wouldn't appreciate the difference(s). In other words, once we've
established that differences exist, it's probably best to let everyone
decide for themselves on a case-by-case basis. My willingness to spend
more than usual on some things isn't part of a general tendency.

Operating a business also has this multifaceted quality. Some aspects
matter more than others. Like THD, freshness is easy to measure so many
people use it to filter the marketplace whereas others care more about
other things. We pick our battles, and make different choices depending
on where we are and how we perceive the results.

Felix

Date: 09 Dec 2006 06:48:31
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

I- >Ian wrote:
> I plan on passing on the Spicas in my will.

Am I in your will? Huh? Huh? Am I?

Date: 09 Dec 2006 19:27:27
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On 9 Dec 2006 06:48:31 -0800, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:

>
>I->Ian wrote:
>> I plan on passing on the Spicas in my will.
>
>Am I in your will? Huh? Huh? Am I?

If you keep slagging audiophiles, there's every likelihood you shall
predecease me.

Date: 10 Dec 2006 20:34:11
From: Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06 GMT, "The Other Funk"
<bobbie@moondoggie.com > wrote:

[a long end excellent dissertation about the coffee shop business]

Your message subject reminds me of the sign I used to have on my
office door:

Software Built to Order
Good, Fast, Cheap
Pick One

-Shel

Date: 11 Dec 2006 06:02:34
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:34:11 -0800, Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL
<aquaman@tandem.artell.net > wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06 GMT, "The Other Funk"
><bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
>[a long end excellent dissertation about the coffee shop business]
>
>Your message subject reminds me of the sign I used to have on my
>office door:
>
>Software Built to Order
> Good, Fast, Cheap
> Pick One
>
>-Shel

Disasters Written Here
No Charge

Date: 11 Dec 2006 22:36:35
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: Good, Fast & Cheap (Very long)

Finding the keyboard operational
Sheldon T. Hall - DO NOT MAIL entered:

> On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:19:06 GMT, "The Other Funk"
> <bobbie@moondoggie.com> wrote:
>
> [a long end excellent dissertation about the coffee shop business]
>
> Your message subject reminds me of the sign I used to have on my
> office door:
>
> Software Built to Order
> Good, Fast, Cheap
> Pick One
>
> -Shel

It came from a sign up in the lab. "Everythiing I do is good and I don't
work cheap."

Bob
--
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com