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Main
Date: 28 Jul 2006 10:49:20
From:
Subject: Help: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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All,
I am about to buy a new espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi S1) that
can be used with either 15 amps or 20 amps. The latter provides more
flexibility.
I have a regular new york rental apartment and so I suspect I have
standard kitchen 15 amps outlets (the regular 3 pronged thing).
Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
buy/do to set this up?
thanks so much!
Eyal
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 20:16:47
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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If you are renting, you need to go with the 15A unit. Whatever improvements you
make to the building, provided the owner gives you permission, is going to stay
with the building and the owner is unlikely to reimburse you one cent. Dan
<egoldwerger@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154108960.562296.231220@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> All,
>
> I am about to buy a new espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi S1) that
> can be used with either 15 amps or 20 amps. The latter provides more
> flexibility.
>
> I have a regular new york rental apartment and so I suspect I have
> standard kitchen 15 amps outlets (the regular 3 pronged thing).
>
> Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
> buy/do to set this up?
>
> thanks so much!
>
> Eyal
>
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 15:35:17
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Help: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
It is a HUGE problem.
Perhaps the circuit that you already have is capable of 20 amps,
perhaps not.
Just the price of an electrician coming in to inspect your place may
discourage you.
In any case you do not lose much by selecting the 15 amp mode. --
UNLESS you are running a volume espresso shop in your kitchen.
Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 20:45:34
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Help: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
On 28 Jul 2006 10:49:20 -0700, egoldwerger@gmail.com wrote:
>All,
>
>I am about to buy a new espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi S1) that
>can be used with either 15 amps or 20 amps. The latter provides more
>flexibility.
>
>I have a regular new york rental apartment and so I suspect I have
>standard kitchen 15 amps outlets (the regular 3 pronged thing).
>
>Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
>buy/do to set this up?
>
>thanks so much!
>
>Eyal
Frankly, that machine is a poor choice for most renters. Wherever you
move, you will always have electrical issues limiting your options. I
would pass and get a 15 amp machine.
Marshall "just rewired our kitchen and bar"
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 14:05:36
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
You would need to have an electrician run a new line from your breaker box,
fishing cable thru the walls, etc. This is probably out of the question in
a NY rental apt. or at least quite costly.
Consult your breaker box to see if the breakers that control your kitchen
outlets really are marked 15 amp. Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on
circuits that are really fused for 20 amps.
<egoldwerger@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154108960.562296.231220@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> All,
>
> I am about to buy a new espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi S1) that
> can be used with either 15 amps or 20 amps. The latter provides more
> flexibility.
>
> I have a regular new york rental apartment and so I suspect I have
> standard kitchen 15 amps outlets (the regular 3 pronged thing).
>
> Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
> buy/do to set this up?
>
> thanks so much!
>
> Eyal
>
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 14:35:30
From: Anon
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
Another option, if you have a 220 outlet for a dryer or range, is to use one
side of that for a 20 amp outlet.
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:XsSdnSBrHfVszFfZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> You would need to have an electrician run a new line from your breaker
> box, fishing cable thru the walls, etc. This is probably out of the
> question in a NY rental apt. or at least quite costly.
>
> Consult your breaker box to see if the breakers that control your kitchen
> outlets really are marked 15 amp. Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on
> circuits that are really fused for 20 amps.
>
>
>
>
>
> <egoldwerger@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154108960.562296.231220@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> All,
>>
>> I am about to buy a new espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi S1) that
>> can be used with either 15 amps or 20 amps. The latter provides more
>> flexibility.
>>
>> I have a regular new york rental apartment and so I suspect I have
>> standard kitchen 15 amps outlets (the regular 3 pronged thing).
>>
>> Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
>> buy/do to set this up?
>>
>> thanks so much!
>>
>> Eyal
>>
>
>
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Date: 28 Jul 2006 23:27:54
From: Roger Shoaf
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:XsSdnSBrHfVszFfZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Consult your breaker box to see if the breakers that control your kitchen
> outlets really are marked 15 amp. Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on
> circuits that are really fused for 20 amps.
>
I believe this to be a no no. The breaker is supposed to be the weakest
link in the chain. It would not be right to have a 20 amp breaker or fuse
on a circuit that had an outlet rated at 20 Amps.
--
Roger Shoaf
If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the
Congress?
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Date: 29 Jul 2006 08:44:44
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong in
the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
Since you can have more than 1 (in fact many) outlets in a circuit , it's OK
to have several 15 amp outlets in a 20 amp circuit - together the load
could add up to 20 amps. Anyway as long as the rest of the circuit is 20 amp
then just changing out the outlet would be a trivial matter. A 20 amp outlet
in a 15 amp circuit would be a bad idea.
The most important thing is that the breaker be matched to the gauge of the
wiring - the purpose of the breaker is to keep the wiring from overheating
and starting a fire if too much current flows. The thicker the wire the more
electricity you can send thru it without it getting too hot. Generally
speaking #12 wire is good for 20 amps and #14 is good for 15 (higher # is
thinner wire). But sometimes electricians use #12 wire and fuse it for 15
amps.
"Roger Shoaf" <shoaf@nospamsyix.com > wrote in message
news:1154154433.881223@news01.syix.com...
>
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:XsSdnSBrHfVszFfZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Consult your breaker box to see if the breakers that control your kitchen
>> outlets really are marked 15 amp. Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on
>> circuits that are really fused for 20 amps.
>>
>
> I believe this to be a no no. The breaker is supposed to be the weakest
> link in the chain. It would not be right to have a 20 amp breaker or fuse
> on a circuit that had an outlet rated at 20 Amps.
>
> --
> Roger Shoaf
>
> If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the
> Congress?
>
>
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Date: 29 Jul 2006 10:37:41
From: Seth Goodman
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com >, on Sat, 29
Jul 2006 08:44:44 -0400, Jack Denver wrote:
> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong in
> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
>
And the OP should note that the 20 amp version of the La Spaziale
Vivaldi S1 apparently comes with that type of special, non-standard, 20
amp plug (as required by law in most places in the US, including NYC).
I'm inferring this from the somewhat confused description on the 1st
line web page:
"The La Spaziale S1 is manufactured with an internal switch that allows
full operation of both boilers with no compromises at 20 amps - this
means you need a 20 amp dedicated circuit and an outlet that accepts a
125 volt plug. We can set the internal switch to 15 amps and change the
plug to a standard 110 volt outlet. However, you will have alternating
power between the two boilers."
I assume in describing "110 volt" and "125 volt" plugs, they are really
referring to what Jack has correctly described as 15 amp and 20 amp
plugs.
Note, too, the word "dedicated" in that description. The machine wants
all 20 amps. This means nothing else can go on that circuit - at least
not while the espresso machine is in use.
--
Seth Goodman
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 19:41:33
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com >,
nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong in
> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
20 amp outlets are not rare at all. It's typical to run all 20 amp
circuits to the kitchen in new construction. Refrigerators,
microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
horizontally now). As always, your mileage, rather code, may vary.
> Since you can have more than 1 (in fact many) outlets in a circuit , it's OK
> to have several 15 amp outlets in a 20 amp circuit - together the load
> could add up to 20 amps. Anyway as long as the rest of the circuit is 20 amp
> then just changing out the outlet would be a trivial matter. A 20 amp outlet
> in a 15 amp circuit would be a bad idea.
>
> The most important thing is that the breaker be matched to the gauge of the
> wiring - the purpose of the breaker is to keep the wiring from overheating
> and starting a fire if too much current flows. The thicker the wire the more
> electricity you can send thru it without it getting too hot. Generally
> speaking #12 wire is good for 20 amps and #14 is good for 15 (higher # is
> thinner wire). But sometimes electricians use #12 wire and fuse it for 15
> amps.
>
>
> "Roger Shoaf" <shoaf@nospamsyix.com> wrote in message
> news:1154154433.881223@news01.syix.com...
> >
> > "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> > news:XsSdnSBrHfVszFfZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >> Consult your breaker box to see if the breakers that control your kitchen
> >> outlets really are marked 15 amp. Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on
> >> circuits that are really fused for 20 amps.
> >>
> >
> > I believe this to be a no no. The breaker is supposed to be the weakest
> > link in the chain. It would not be right to have a 20 amp breaker or fuse
> > on a circuit that had an outlet rated at 20 Amps.
> >
> > --
> > Roger Shoaf
> >
> > If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the
> > Congress?
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 10:47:38
From: Seth Goodman
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
In article <MPG.1f39b0bd6bd62a4f9897f2@newsgroups.comcast.net >, on Tue,
1 Aug 2006 19:41:33 -0500, Mike Hartigan wrote:
> 20 amp outlets are not rare at all. It's typical to run all 20 amp
> circuits to the kitchen in new construction. Refrigerators,
> microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
> appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
> horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
> horizontally now).
The NEC, the most common code in the U.S., does not require 20 amp
receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. 15 amp receptacles may be used, and
usually are. The only exception is if the receptacle is the *only*
outlet on the circuit - then it must be in the 20 amp configuration.
http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
See Section 210.21 .
For the OP - in doing a quick review of the code for this, I note that
the code only allows appliances up to 16 amps to be connected to a 20
amp circuit, *unless* it is a dedicated circuit with a single
receptacle. Since the 20 amp version of the S1 draws 17.3 amps, it must
have its own dedicated circuit to conform to the NEC.
--
Seth Goodman
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 11:54:20
From: Dave S
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
Seth Goodman wrote:
> The NEC, the most common code in the U.S., does not require 20 amp
> receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. 15 amp receptacles may be used, and
> usually are. The only exception is if the receptacle is the *only*
> outlet on the circuit - then it must be in the 20 amp configuration.
>
> http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
>
> See Section 210.21 .
>
> For the OP - in doing a quick review of the code for this, I note that
> the code only allows appliances up to 16 amps to be connected to a 20
> amp circuit, *unless* it is a dedicated circuit with a single
> receptacle. Since the 20 amp version of the S1 draws 17.3 amps, it must
> have its own dedicated circuit to conform to the NEC.
>
I'm not arguing about what the NEC requires, but does it make any sense
at all that the situation least likely to cause overheating would
require the most robust receptacle? i.e. only outlet on a 20 amp circuit.
The second para above also doesn't indicate to me that the writers of
the code were people of common sense. A receptacle is made so that one
appliance can be unplugged and a different one plugged in. How many Judy
Householders are going to be aware of the current draw of the latest
gadget they purchased? Most people will consider themselves well
protected if their appliance plug has a grounding prong. If there is a
16 amp limit for any one appliance on a circuit wired for a nominal 20
amps, then devices using more than 16 amps should have a different power
plug, to be plugged into their own type of receptacle.
Dave S.
Just my opinion - or was that obvious?
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 13:39:30
From: J. Clarke
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
Dave S wrote:
> Seth Goodman wrote:
>> The NEC, the most common code in the U.S., does not require 20 amp
>> receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. 15 amp receptacles may be used, and
>> usually are. The only exception is if the receptacle is the *only*
>> outlet on the circuit - then it must be in the 20 amp configuration.
>>
>> http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
>>
>> See Section 210.21 .
>>
>> For the OP - in doing a quick review of the code for this, I note that
>> the code only allows appliances up to 16 amps to be connected to a 20
>> amp circuit, *unless* it is a dedicated circuit with a single
>> receptacle. Since the 20 amp version of the S1 draws 17.3 amps, it must
>> have its own dedicated circuit to conform to the NEC.
>>
>
> I'm not arguing about what the NEC requires, but does it make any sense
> at all that the situation least likely to cause overheating would
> require the most robust receptacle? i.e. only outlet on a 20 amp circuit.
>
> The second para above also doesn't indicate to me that the writers of
> the code were people of common sense. A receptacle is made so that one
> appliance can be unplugged and a different one plugged in. How many Judy
> Householders are going to be aware of the current draw of the latest
> gadget they purchased? Most people will consider themselves well
> protected if their appliance plug has a grounding prong. If there is a
> 16 amp limit for any one appliance on a circuit wired for a nominal 20
> amps, then devices using more than 16 amps should have a different power
> plug, to be plugged into their own type of receptacle.
The authors of the code have plenty of sense, it's the interpreters who
don't understand that the code _stops_ at the outlet and try to insist that
it controls what someone is allowed to plug into that outlet who are
lacking in sense. Where the code limits the current draw of attached
devices it is referring to permanently installed devices, not portable
appliances over which the NFPA, the inspector, and the electrician have no
reasonable means of exercising control.
> Dave S.
> Just my opinion - or was that obvious?
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 16:10:49
From: Seth Goodman
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
In article <eaqp7a0ps1@news2.newsguy.com >, on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:39:30
-0400, J. Clarke wrote:
> The authors of the code have plenty of sense, it's the interpreters who
> don't understand that the code _stops_ at the outlet and try to insist that
> it controls what someone is allowed to plug into that outlet who are
> lacking in sense. Where the code limits the current draw of attached
> devices it is referring to permanently installed devices, not portable
> appliances over which the NFPA, the inspector, and the electrician have no
> reasonable means of exercising control.
Section 210.23(A)(1) states "the rating of any one cord-and-plug-
connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating".
I think an espresso machine (or any other portable appliance) falls into
this category. Please explain how I have misinterpreted.
--
Seth Goodman
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 19:29:33
From: J. Clarke
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
Seth Goodman wrote:
> In article <eaqp7a0ps1@news2.newsguy.com>, on Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:39:30
> -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The authors of the code have plenty of sense, it's the interpreters who
>> don't understand that the code _stops_ at the outlet and try to insist
>> that it controls what someone is allowed to plug into that outlet who are
>> lacking in sense. Where the code limits the current draw of attached
>> devices it is referring to permanently installed devices, not portable
>> appliances over which the NFPA, the inspector, and the electrician have
>> no reasonable means of exercising control.
>
>
> Section 210.23(A)(1) states "the rating of any one cord-and-plug-
> connected utilization equipment not fastened in place shall not exceed
> 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating".
>
> I think an espresso machine (or any other portable appliance) falls into
> this category. Please explain how I have misinterpreted.
I need to read the entire context and I don't have the code in front of me.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
|
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 15:10:57
From: Dave S
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
J. Clarke wrote:
> Dave S wrote:
>
>> Seth Goodman wrote:
>>> The NEC, the most common code in the U.S., does not require 20 amp
>>> receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. 15 amp receptacles may be used, and
>>> usually are. The only exception is if the receptacle is the *only*
>>> outlet on the circuit - then it must be in the 20 amp configuration.
>>>
>>> http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
>>>
>>> See Section 210.21 .
>>>
>>> For the OP - in doing a quick review of the code for this, I note that
>>> the code only allows appliances up to 16 amps to be connected to a 20
>>> amp circuit, *unless* it is a dedicated circuit with a single
>>> receptacle. Since the 20 amp version of the S1 draws 17.3 amps, it must
>>> have its own dedicated circuit to conform to the NEC.
>>>
>> I'm not arguing about what the NEC requires, but does it make any sense
>> at all that the situation least likely to cause overheating would
>> require the most robust receptacle? i.e. only outlet on a 20 amp circuit.
>>
>> The second para above also doesn't indicate to me that the writers of
>> the code were people of common sense. A receptacle is made so that one
>> appliance can be unplugged and a different one plugged in. How many Judy
>> Householders are going to be aware of the current draw of the latest
>> gadget they purchased? Most people will consider themselves well
>> protected if their appliance plug has a grounding prong. If there is a
>> 16 amp limit for any one appliance on a circuit wired for a nominal 20
>> amps, then devices using more than 16 amps should have a different power
>> plug, to be plugged into their own type of receptacle.
>
> The authors of the code have plenty of sense, it's the interpreters who
> don't understand that the code _stops_ at the outlet and try to insist that
> it controls what someone is allowed to plug into that outlet who are
> lacking in sense. Where the code limits the current draw of attached
> devices it is referring to permanently installed devices, not portable
> appliances over which the NFPA, the inspector, and the electrician have no
> reasonable means of exercising control.
You got me on para two. Since receptacles were written about in para
one, I took it for granted that was also the "connection" in para two.
Perhaps you'll also be able to explain the "common sense" of para one
where 20 amp circuits are terminated on multiple receptacles, those
receptacles can be 15 amp rated, whereas if the circuit is terminated on
a single receptacle, that receptacle must be 20 amp rated.
Dave S.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Aug 2006 19:28:36
From: J. Clarke
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
Dave S wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Dave S wrote:
>>
>>> Seth Goodman wrote:
>>>> The NEC, the most common code in the U.S., does not require 20 amp
>>>> receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. 15 amp receptacles may be used, and
>>>> usually are. The only exception is if the receptacle is the *only*
>>>> outlet on the circuit - then it must be in the 20 amp configuration.
>>>>
>>>> http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7005SB
>>>>
>>>> See Section 210.21 .
>>>>
>>>> For the OP - in doing a quick review of the code for this, I note that
>>>> the code only allows appliances up to 16 amps to be connected to a 20
>>>> amp circuit, *unless* it is a dedicated circuit with a single
>>>> receptacle. Since the 20 amp version of the S1 draws 17.3 amps, it must
>>>> have its own dedicated circuit to conform to the NEC.
>>>>
>>> I'm not arguing about what the NEC requires, but does it make any sense
>>> at all that the situation least likely to cause overheating would
>>> require the most robust receptacle? i.e. only outlet on a 20 amp
>>> circuit.
>>>
>>> The second para above also doesn't indicate to me that the writers of
>>> the code were people of common sense. A receptacle is made so that one
>>> appliance can be unplugged and a different one plugged in. How many Judy
>>> Householders are going to be aware of the current draw of the latest
>>> gadget they purchased? Most people will consider themselves well
>>> protected if their appliance plug has a grounding prong. If there is a
>>> 16 amp limit for any one appliance on a circuit wired for a nominal 20
>>> amps, then devices using more than 16 amps should have a different power
>>> plug, to be plugged into their own type of receptacle.
>>
>> The authors of the code have plenty of sense, it's the interpreters who
>> don't understand that the code _stops_ at the outlet and try to insist
>> that it controls what someone is allowed to plug into that outlet who are
>> lacking in sense. Where the code limits the current draw of attached
>> devices it is referring to permanently installed devices, not portable
>> appliances over which the NFPA, the inspector, and the electrician have
>> no reasonable means of exercising control.
>
> You got me on para two. Since receptacles were written about in para
> one, I took it for granted that was also the "connection" in para two.
>
> Perhaps you'll also be able to explain the "common sense" of para one
> where 20 amp circuits are terminated on multiple receptacles, those
> receptacles can be 15 amp rated, whereas if the circuit is terminated on
> a single receptacle, that receptacle must be 20 amp rated.
I don't know the standards for manufacture of receptacles but doubt that
there is any significant difference in the actual current-carrying capacity
between a 15-amp and a 20-amp receptacle, the major difference is that a 20
amp can accept a 20 amp plug in addition to a 15 amp plug. The reasoning
is that most commonplace devices have 15 amp plugs and draw much less than
15 amps. If there is a single receptacle then it makes no sense to make it
impossible to attach a 20 amp load to the circuit.
> Dave S.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
|
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 00:14:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
"Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com > wrote in message
news:MPG.1f39b0bd6bd62a4f9897f2@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
>> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong
>> in
>> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
>> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
>
> 20 amp outlets are not rare at all.
It's typical to run all 20 amp
> circuits to the kitchen in new construction.
True.
Refrigerators,
> microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
> appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
> horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
> horizontally now).
Nope, not unless it's the only outlet in the circuit. If there's more than
one all the outlets can be 15 amp.
What they are really getting at is that you can plug in one 20 amp appliance
(with the special plug) in a 20 amp circuit (e.g. a big fridge or A/C) . OR,
you (much more typically) plug in a bunch of different small loads that
together add up to less than 20 amps - (mixer, blender, etc.). For the
latter there's no special need for 20 amp outlets. In fact it's probably
better NOT to use them, in case someone tries to plug in TWO 20 amp devices
into the same branch.
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| | |
Date: 04 Aug 2006 23:41:13
From: Tony Verhulst
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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> ... Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on
> circuits that are really fused for 20 amps.
Sometimes 15 amp outlets are used on circuits that are *wired* for 20
amps. Remove the outlet and look. If the wiring is 12 gauge, the circuit
can handle 20 amps. If the wiring is 14 gauge, 15 amps is the limit. If
you can't tell 12 from 14, call an electrician.
Tony V.
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Date: 29 Jul 2006 06:55:40
From: butch burton
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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Jack Denver wrote:
> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong in
> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
>
Is this appliance 110 or 220 - don't think that has been established
yet - look at the plug on the machine - 2 parallel or a horizontal and
1 vertical which is 220.
When I lived in a NYC apartment years ago - the breaker box was in the
kitchen - of course these were fused back then. If the machine is 220
- then you either have to add another breaker or pigtail off an
existing - neither of which would I recommend an amateur try.
If you feel brave and there is room in the circuit breaker and you can
get to the side of the box - it is possible to add another circuit
either 110 or 220. You have big box stores in Manhattan now - they
have all the goodies you need to do this.
If you elect to add a circuit, you will be liable for any damage or
fires caused by your wiring efforts. Also remember when living in NYC,
my building was wired for cable TV - landlord had notices all over of
the coming of this wonderful event - all of those who signed up got
stuck with a rent increase - an enhancement - so if you even could get
a pro to do it with the landlord permission - bet the rent would go up.
Ah yes NYC - great for a few years unless you have a lots of sheckles.
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Date: 29 Jul 2006 10:11:27
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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> Is this appliance 110 or 220 - don't think that has been established
> yet - look at the plug on the machine - 2 parallel or a horizontal and
> 1 vertical which is 220.
It is 115VAC, check out the review at CoffeeGeek. Dan
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 19:45:13
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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In article <1154181340.752524.208120@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
spacetrax@wi.rr.com says...
>
> Jack Denver wrote:
> > 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong in
> > the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
> > appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
> >
> Is this appliance 110 or 220 - don't think that has been established
> yet - look at the plug on the machine - 2 parallel or a horizontal and
> 1 vertical which is 220.
It's likely not 220 if it calls for 20 amps. That's more than what
my central air requires.
> When I lived in a NYC apartment years ago - the breaker box was in the
> kitchen - of course these were fused back then. If the machine is 220
> - then you either have to add another breaker or pigtail off an
> existing - neither of which would I recommend an amateur try.
>
> If you feel brave and there is room in the circuit breaker and you can
> get to the side of the box - it is possible to add another circuit
> either 110 or 220. You have big box stores in Manhattan now - they
> have all the goodies you need to do this.
>
> If you elect to add a circuit, you will be liable for any damage or
> fires caused by your wiring efforts. Also remember when living in NYC,
> my building was wired for cable TV - landlord had notices all over of
> the coming of this wonderful event - all of those who signed up got
> stuck with a rent increase - an enhancement - so if you even could get
> a pro to do it with the landlord permission - bet the rent would go up.
>
> Ah yes NYC - great for a few years unless you have a lots of sheckles.
>
>
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Date: 29 Jul 2006 21:37:02
From: Brent
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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an electrician...
> Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
> buy/do to set this up?
>
> thanks so much!
>
> Eyal
>
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 18:28:45
From: DougW
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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egoldwerger@gmail.com wrote:
> All,
>
> I am about to buy a new espresso machine (La Spaziale Vivaldi S1) that
> can be used with either 15 amps or 20 amps. The latter provides more
> flexibility.
>
> I have a regular new york rental apartment and so I suspect I have
> standard kitchen 15 amps outlets (the regular 3 pronged thing).
>
> Does any one know what is needed to provide 20 amps? what do I need to
> buy/do to set this up?
As with all advice, consult a certified electrician in your state.
First, the purpose of a breaker is to protect the feed line
running to the outlet from overheating and causing a fire.
Never use a breaker rated for more than the feed line that runs to
the outlet. And never use an outlet that is rated for less than the
breaker.
12ga Romex is maxed at 20A service. (this assumes that 12ga romex
or equivelant is in your walls) older wire is not rated the same
and aluminum wire (mostly removed by now) will not carry that much
without melting.
Here is the tricky part. You can "within code" have more outlets on a
circuit than the circuit is rated at. This assumes you won't use
them all at the same time. For high current (and 20A is high current)
you should have a single run. This is where the local codes take over.
This might be worth reading.
http://www.greatinspector.com/faq-elec-wiresize.html
--
DougW
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 16:00:00
From: Eyal
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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All,
thanks for all the fantastic inputs!!!
I will be chceking the breaker box this evening based on all your
advises. I will try to put this together and will report to you how
this works. Perhaps we will learn something new!!
Eyal
Seth Goodman wrote:
> In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com>, on Sat, 29
> Jul 2006 08:44:44 -0400, Jack Denver wrote:
>
> > 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong in
> > the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
> > appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
> >
>
> And the OP should note that the 20 amp version of the La Spaziale
> Vivaldi S1 apparently comes with that type of special, non-standard, 20
> amp plug (as required by law in most places in the US, including NYC).
> I'm inferring this from the somewhat confused description on the 1st
> line web page:
>
> "The La Spaziale S1 is manufactured with an internal switch that allows
> full operation of both boilers with no compromises at 20 amps - this
> means you need a 20 amp dedicated circuit and an outlet that accepts a
> 125 volt plug. We can set the internal switch to 15 amps and change the
> plug to a standard 110 volt outlet. However, you will have alternating
> power between the two boilers."
>
> I assume in describing "110 volt" and "125 volt" plugs, they are really
> referring to what Jack has correctly described as 15 amp and 20 amp
> plugs.
>
> Note, too, the word "dedicated" in that description. The machine wants
> all 20 amps. This means nothing else can go on that circuit - at least
> not while the espresso machine is in use.
>
> --
> Seth Goodman
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 12:23:10
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
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J. Clarke wrote:
> The authors of the code have plenty of sense, it's the interpreters who
> don't understand that the code _stops_ at the outlet and try to insist that
> it controls what someone is allowed to plug into that outlet who are
> lacking in sense. Where the code limits the current draw of attached
> devices it is referring to permanently installed devices, not portable
> appliances over which the NFPA, the inspector, and the electrician have no
> reasonable means of exercising control.
Took the very words right out of my mouth. :)
Will
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 08:23:32
From:
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1f39b0bd6bd62a4f9897f2@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> > In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> > nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
> >> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong
> >> in
> >> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
> >> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
> >
> > 20 amp outlets are not rare at all.
>
>
> It's typical to run all 20 amp
> > circuits to the kitchen in new construction.
>
> True.
>
> Refrigerators,
> > microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
> > appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
> > horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
> > horizontally now).
>
> Nope, not unless it's the only outlet in the circuit. If there's more than
> one all the outlets can be 15 amp.
>
> What they are really getting at is that you can plug in one 20 amp appliance
> (with the special plug) in a 20 amp circuit (e.g. a big fridge or A/C) . OR,
> you (much more typically) plug in a bunch of different small loads that
> together add up to less than 20 amps - (mixer, blender, etc.). For the
> latter there's no special need for 20 amp outlets. In fact it's probably
> better NOT to use them, in case someone tries to plug in TWO 20 amp devices
> into the same branch.
This makes sense to me. All of the outlets in my kitchen are 20 amp
(w/horizontal slot). The only one that is by itself is the fridge. I
can't imagine that the builder would have contracted for (presumably,
more expensive) 20 amp outlets if it was not required. Might it be
wise to replace them with 15 amp outlets as the need arises?
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 11:52:45
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
>> What they are really getting at is that you can plug in one 20 amp appliance
>> (with the special plug) in a 20 amp circuit (e.g. a big fridge or A/C) . OR,
>> you (much more typically) plug in a bunch of different small loads that
>> together add up to less than 20 amps - (mixer, blender, etc.). For the
>> latter there's no special need for 20 amp outlets. In fact it's probably
>> better NOT to use them, in case someone tries to plug in TWO 20 amp devices
>> into the same branch.
>
> This makes sense to me. All of the outlets in my kitchen are 20 amp
> (w/horizontal slot). The only one that is by itself is the fridge. I
> can't imagine that the builder would have contracted for (presumably,
> more expensive) 20 amp outlets if it was not required. Might it be
> wise to replace them with 15 amp outlets as the need arises?
Then your kitchen is super-standard! Perhaps the builder got a good deal on 20A
receptacles, or he/she grabbed the wrong box that day. Or, perhaps the local
inspector had a cob up their butt and insisted. There is no reason to replace
them with 15A units. The reason is quite simple. How many countertop kitchen
appliances do you have that are wired with a 20A plug? One? None? It's a moot
point, isn't it?
Dan
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 13:08:17
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
I wouldn't bother - same reasoning as Dan. But, do make sure that the
outlets are GFCI protected. You only need one GFCI device in a circuit,
which can either be at the breaker box, or preferably (so that you can test
it frequently) at the first outlet in the circuit. All the downstream
outlets are then wired in series with the GFCI, so that if you trip it off
with the test button, the other outlets should go dead. If you trip the
GFCI's in your kitchen and the other countertop convenience outlets remain
live, you have a problem. OTOH, the fridge should NOT be GFCI protected or
one day you may return to spoiled food.
<ls1mike@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1154618612.042162.231420@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.1f39b0bd6bd62a4f9897f2@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>> > In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>> > nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
>> >> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal
>> >> prong
>> >> in
>> >> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
>> >> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
>> >
>> > 20 amp outlets are not rare at all.
>>
>>
>> It's typical to run all 20 amp
>> > circuits to the kitchen in new construction.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> Refrigerators,
>> > microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
>> > appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
>> > horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
>> > horizontally now).
>>
>> Nope, not unless it's the only outlet in the circuit. If there's more
>> than
>> one all the outlets can be 15 amp.
>>
>> What they are really getting at is that you can plug in one 20 amp
>> appliance
>> (with the special plug) in a 20 amp circuit (e.g. a big fridge or A/C) .
>> OR,
>> you (much more typically) plug in a bunch of different small loads that
>> together add up to less than 20 amps - (mixer, blender, etc.). For the
>> latter there's no special need for 20 amp outlets. In fact it's probably
>> better NOT to use them, in case someone tries to plug in TWO 20 amp
>> devices
>> into the same branch.
>
> This makes sense to me. All of the outlets in my kitchen are 20 amp
> (w/horizontal slot). The only one that is by itself is the fridge. I
> can't imagine that the builder would have contracted for (presumably,
> more expensive) 20 amp outlets if it was not required. Might it be
> wise to replace them with 15 amp outlets as the need arises?
>
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 20:15:12
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
>I wouldn't bother - same reasoning as Dan. But, do make sure that the outlets
>are GFCI protected. You only need one GFCI device in a circuit, which can
>either be at the breaker box, or preferably (so that you can test it
>frequently) at the first outlet in the circuit. All the downstream outlets are
>then wired in series with the GFCI, so that if you trip it off with the test
>button, the other outlets should go dead. If you trip the GFCI's in your
>kitchen and the other countertop convenience outlets remain live, you have a
>problem. OTOH, the fridge should NOT be GFCI protected or one day you may
>return to spoiled food.
Actually, GFIs are REQUIRED by NEC in kitchen outlets over a counter or near
sinks (I forget the exact wording and distances involved).
>
> <ls1mike@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1154618612.042162.231420@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Jack Denver wrote:
>>> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.1f39b0bd6bd62a4f9897f2@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>> > In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>> > nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
>>> >> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal prong
>>> >> in
>>> >> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
>>> >> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
>>> >
>>> > 20 amp outlets are not rare at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's typical to run all 20 amp
>>> > circuits to the kitchen in new construction.
>>>
>>> True.
>>>
>>> Refrigerators,
>>> > microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
>>> > appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
>>> > horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
>>> > horizontally now).
>>>
>>> Nope, not unless it's the only outlet in the circuit. If there's more than
>>> one all the outlets can be 15 amp.
>>>
>>> What they are really getting at is that you can plug in one 20 amp appliance
>>> (with the special plug) in a 20 amp circuit (e.g. a big fridge or A/C) . OR,
>>> you (much more typically) plug in a bunch of different small loads that
>>> together add up to less than 20 amps - (mixer, blender, etc.). For the
>>> latter there's no special need for 20 amp outlets. In fact it's probably
>>> better NOT to use them, in case someone tries to plug in TWO 20 amp devices
>>> into the same branch.
>>
>> This makes sense to me. All of the outlets in my kitchen are 20 amp
>> (w/horizontal slot). The only one that is by itself is the fridge. I
>> can't imagine that the builder would have contracted for (presumably,
>> more expensive) 20 amp outlets if it was not required. Might it be
>> wise to replace them with 15 amp outlets as the need arises?
>>
>
>
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 00:28:30
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: how to set up 20 amps in my kitchen?
|
But older installations are grandfathered, so there are millions out there.
"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:2ZSdndJlQoQPDE_ZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> >I wouldn't bother - same reasoning as Dan. But, do make sure that the
> >outlets are GFCI protected. You only need one GFCI device in a circuit,
> >which can either be at the breaker box, or preferably (so that you can
> >test it frequently) at the first outlet in the circuit. All the
> >downstream outlets are then wired in series with the GFCI, so that if you
> >trip it off with the test button, the other outlets should go dead. If
> >you trip the GFCI's in your kitchen and the other countertop convenience
> >outlets remain live, you have a problem. OTOH, the fridge should NOT be
> >GFCI protected or one day you may return to spoiled food.
>
> Actually, GFIs are REQUIRED by NEC in kitchen outlets over a counter or
> near sinks (I forget the exact wording and distances involved).
>
>>
>> <ls1mike@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1154618612.042162.231420@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> Jack Denver wrote:
>>>> "Mike Hartigan" <mike@hartigan.dot.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:MPG.1f39b0bd6bd62a4f9897f2@newsgroups.comcast.net...
>>>> > In article <H-2dnRVAmIGgxVbZnZ2dnUVZ_rudnZ2d@comcast.com>,
>>>> > nunuvyer@netscape.net says...
>>>> >> 20 amp outlets are fairly rare - they have a spot for a horizontal
>>>> >> prong
>>>> >> in
>>>> >> the middle of one of the usual two vertical slots. 20 amps plugs on
>>>> >> appliances (1 prong horizontal, 1 vertical) are even rarer.
>>>> >
>>>> > 20 amp outlets are not rare at all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's typical to run all 20 amp
>>>> > circuits to the kitchen in new construction.
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>> Refrigerators,
>>>> > microwave ovens, and even toasters are pretty energy hungry
>>>> > appliances. Code then requires 20 amp outlets, which have the extra
>>>> > horizontal slot (actually vertical, since they're typically installed
>>>> > horizontally now).
>>>>
>>>> Nope, not unless it's the only outlet in the circuit. If there's more
>>>> than
>>>> one all the outlets can be 15 amp.
>>>>
>>>> What they are really getting at is that you can plug in one 20 amp
>>>> appliance
>>>> (with the special plug) in a 20 amp circuit (e.g. a big fridge or A/C)
>>>> . OR,
>>>> you (much more typically) plug in a bunch of different small loads that
>>>> together add up to less than 20 amps - (mixer, blender, etc.). For the
>>>> latter there's no special need for 20 amp outlets. In fact it's
>>>> probably
>>>> better NOT to use them, in case someone tries to plug in TWO 20 amp
>>>> devices
>>>> into the same branch.
>>>
>>> This makes sense to me. All of the outlets in my kitchen are 20 amp
>>> (w/horizontal slot). The only one that is by itself is the fridge. I
>>> can't imagine that the builder would have contracted for (presumably,
>>> more expensive) 20 amp outlets if it was not required. Might it be
>>> wise to replace them with 15 amp outlets as the need arises?
>>>
>>
>>
>
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