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Date: 08 Aug 2006 01:09:47
From: Romeo Golf
Subject: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Does anyone know of a comprehensive or definitive source on who brought
coffee to the Hortus Botanicus in Amsterdam, from where, and how?
The histories I've read are general and inconsistent -- one says Mocha,
another Malabar, others Java.
Thanks!
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Date: 14 Aug 2006 16:19:22
From: 2Stein
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Hi,
you should look at UKERS: All About Coffee (1935) p.39
>>The Netherlands East India Company was formed in 1602. As early as 1614, =
Dutch traders visited Aden to examine into the possibilities of coffee and =
coffee-trading. In 1616 Pieter van dan Broeck brought the first coffee from=
Mocha to Holland. In 1640 a Dutch merchant, named Wurffbain, offered for s=
ale in Amsterdam the first commercial shipment of coffee from Mocha. (.....=
) Regular imports of coffee from Mocha to Amsterdam began in 1663. Later, s=
upplies began to arrive from the Malabar coast.<<
A facsimile you find here:
http://www.coffeewisdom.com/all_about_coffee/all_about_coffee.pdf
Tsch=FCss
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Date: 15 Aug 2006 22:50:18
From: Romeo Golf
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Guten Tag 2Stein,
Thank you for the Ukers reference.
I've read his book and this is where my dilemma lies:
Ukers dates the successful transportation of a coffee plant to Holland
in 1616.
The Hortus Botanicus dates their receipt of seeds (not a plant) it was
able to successfully cultivate to nearly 100 years later:
"Because of the Arabs' high coffee price, the Dutch East India Company
(Verenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie, VOC) decided to cultivate and
transport coffee themselves. In 1696, they were able to successfully
ship the first live coffee plants from Arabia to Batavia (now Jakarta).
The first shipment of coffee seeds that were propagated by the VOC in
Batavia reached Amsterdam in 1706. The coffee plants grew well in the
greenhouses of the Amsterdam Hortus."
-- http://www.dehortus.nl/koffie.asp
So who is correct?
Danke
2Stein wrote:
> Hi,
> you should look at UKERS: All About Coffee (1935) p.39
>
> >>The Netherlands East India Company was formed in 1602. As early as 1614=
, Dutch traders visited Aden to examine into the possibilities of coffee an=
d coffee-trading. In 1616 Pieter van dan Broeck brought the first coffee fr=
om Mocha to Holland. In 1640 a Dutch merchant, named Wurffbain, offered for=
sale in Amsterdam the first commercial shipment of coffee from Mocha. (...=
.=2E) Regular imports of coffee from Mocha to Amsterdam began in 1663. Late=
r, supplies began to arrive from the Malabar coast.<<
>
> A facsimile you find here:
> http://www.coffeewisdom.com/all_about_coffee/all_about_coffee.pdf
>=20
> Tsch=FCss
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Date: 18 Aug 2006 14:39:25
From: 2Stein
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Hi Romeo Golf,
you asked: So who is correct?
I think maybe both are right. In the year 1706 what is said in yuor
reference that were living plants and a 100 years before maybe only
dried plants for the collection?
I have here a phantastic book of 2 Italien authors from Triest, a
biogist and photograph, Fulvio Eccardi, and a green coffe trader,
Vincenco Sandalj. Their theme is the biologie, the history of the
cultivation of the coffeetree an d the produktion nowadays around the
world.
In their chapter about the history they tell this:
(Article title:) >>Precious seedlings in botanical gardens
The first coffe plant arrived in Europe in 1616, brought from Yemen to
the Amsterdam Botanical Garden. This was successfully propagated, and
the mayor of Amsterdam later presented a coffe tree to Louis XIv of
France. This specimen found its way to the Jardin des Plantes.
In 1721, ayoung French naval officier, Gabriel Mathieu de Clieu,
intrigued his way into getting a plant from the Jardin des Plantes, and
managedthrough a series of adventures to bring it in a crystal vase to
the island of Martinique. From these beginnings, coffee eventually
spread through the West Indies and the rest of Latin America.
The Dutch, for their part, introduced coffee taken from India to the
island of Java in Indonesia. At the same time, botanical gardens in
Europe were playing a key role in bringing about the spread of the
coffe plant to the rest of the world.
Descendants of the two Javanese coffee trees obtained by Amsterdam's
botanical gardens in 1706 were sent a few years later to Dutch Guyana.
The French in the meantime took mocha coffe plants from Yemen to the
island of R=E9union in 1717.
In 1727, a Brazilian official visiting French Guyana was given a young
coffee plant by the wife of the colony's governor. This (.. ...) was
the beginning of Brazil's coffee empire. (.........)
( Article title: ) The coffee tree conquers the world
The English began growing coffee in Jamaica in 1730, although in India
it took until around 1840 for commercial production to develop.
Missionaries from Spain introduced coffee to Cuba in 1748, from where
it spread to Puerto Rico in 1755 and to Guatemala five years
later....<<
So said Eccardi/Sandalj in their coffeebook
There are some Questions about this passages :
1- Were it really living trees, which were brought to Amsterdam in the
beginning 17th century?
2- Why the hell the major of Amsterdam gave one tree in the beginning
of the 18th century to Louis XIV of France
3- Are there reliable sources for that adventurous Legend of the French
officier Clieu?
4- It is told in many publications, that this tree of the French
officier Clieu is the origin of millions of coffee trees in
Southamerica and Latin America.
But Jamaica was in hands of the English, the Spain were in Cuba, Puerto
Rico and Guatemala.
May the legend of Clieu does not tell all about it ?
5- That story about the young Brazilian officer seems to my opinion a
little bit 'too much macho'......-very fine phantasm...... the
governors wife was laid down by an young Brazilian officier ....=A7-))
How reliable is this ?
Greetings
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Date: 20 Aug 2006 12:29:15
From: Romeo Golf
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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2Stein,
Another source I have consulted is "Coffee: A Dark History" written by
the Englishman Antony Wild, a former coffee buyer.
He states, "It does appear that, as early as 1616, the Dutch obtained a
coffee plant from Mocha -- said by some to have been of Abyssinian
origin -- to take back to Holland. Seeds from this plant were sent to
Ceylon in 1658... The coffee initiative failed, but more success
attended their efforts in Java, where coffee plantations were first
successfully established in 1699 with cuttings from Dutch possessions
at Malabar in India."
-- pp. 98-99
Eccardi and Sandalj state that the Dutch had successfully brought a
live coffee plant from Yemen to Amsterdam, while Wild says Abyssinia.
Given the strict control the Arabs had over coffee exports from Mocha,
I think it would be much more difficult to smuggle out a live plant, as
opposed to seeds. So if, in fact, the Dutch obtained a live plant, it
seems more plausible to me that they could have gotten this from
Abyssinia.
I think that Eccardi and Sandalj are a little sloppy in saying that,
"The first coffe plant arrived in Europe in 1616, brought from Yemen to
the Amsterdam Botanical Garden." The Hortus Botanicus, according to its
Web site, was only established in 1638 by the Amsterdamse Stadsbestuur.
And if it was this garden that the coffee plant was taken to, why does
De Hortus not quote this earlier date? In fact, they say that the first
live coffee plant was first taken from Arabia to Batavia in 1697 and
then only reached Amsterdam in 1706.
Perhaps De Hortus simply has the incorrect history. I wonder what
source it is based on.
Wild's history also raises the question of how coffee got to Malabar --
Baba Budan or the VOC?
As for your other questions:
* the mayor of Amsterdam gave Louis XIV a coffee plant as a gift; I
have not found the reason why.
* According to Wild, the source of the legend of De Cleu is De Clieu
himself. However, Wild states that his role in the spread of coffee
throughout the Americas is diminished because the Dutch had already
taken seedlings to Surinam by 1718 and the French were already growing
coffee on Hispaniola by 1715 (pg. 124).
* Wild also finds the legend of de Mello Palheta's role in the
introduction of coffee to Brazil implausible. Rather, he attributes the
introduction in 1774 to Jose Mariano da Conceicao Veloso, a Franciscan
friar who obtained seeds from a Dutch friend.
Best regards...
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 00:24:34
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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As almost an aside and sorry to take away from the serious historical
discussion (which I'm completely digging on), I just finished reading a
fiction book called "The Coffee Trader" which is a story about the
first person to try and corner the market on coffee on the Amsterdam
market back in the 15th century. Interesting book, but not much
historical fact, other than talking about the first coffee houses in
the multi-national and multi-religious city of Amsterdam were run by
Turks.
Mark
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Date: 26 Aug 2006 18:22:18
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Max wrote:
> Flasherly wrote?
> > > > Other than having noted apparent Amsterdam Italian contacts prior to
> > > > Dutch trading, or a few sidenotes on trading I thought stimulating, I
> > > > can see where a delemma presented in the two specific origin points
> > > > you've cited present no less a challenge than before. What I should
> > > > therefore assay to inform you, I'm afraid, is that I believe it not to
> > > > be what is equivocally important, so posed in a matter elucidation to
> > > > better defer, or to understand at face value, within such regards I
> > > > duly would, of course, when in fact that I take to hand and spur such
> > > > endeavors you do continue, to be perfectly obvious, with only the
> > > > sincerest estimation and hope you indeed may.
> > > >
> > > > With fondest conveyances good sir, i840coffee.
> > > > -Flasherly
>
> Ken Fox wrote:
> > > let me guess; first you wrote this in latin, then ran it through the
> > > Alta-Vista web translater to turn it into Russian. After Russian, you had
> > > altavista translate it from Russian into Serbo-Croatian, then to Estonian,
> > > then Arabic, then Chinese, Thai, and finally back into English.
>
>
> Maybe he's related to Professor Irwin Corey. http://www.irwincorey.org/
>
> Mathew wrote:
> > In defence of the writer under criticizm, it could be a foreign
> > well-educated person, writing in a stiff English (British) style of
> > language. It has an academic feel to it and also feels like a second
> > laguage for the writer. And I find most academic writings damned near
> > incomprehensible until I run them through A.V. Babblefish.
>
>
> No, I think 'Flasherly' is posting from Florida. My guess is
> he is just trolling.
I've resided years in Thai stilthome bungalows, and sat under
rainspouts as the monsoon cooled me. I've travelled throughout the
Middle East when I lived nearby atop the Anatolian plain, where
coaldust settled on snow in winters as rough on the throat as the
bottom of a demitasse of coarse Syrian coffee. I've also lived some
years in the United Kingdom near a town called Whitney, where pisspots
and milkbottles sat on morning curbs. So many years in so many places.
I was born just north of the Hungry I, in Marin County. Although, in
part from French Canadian stock, who migrated in covered wagon into the
westcoast bay area, I presently reside on the eastcoast, also in
another bay area. I've only bought my first boat, altogether a modest
affair, which I'm still waiting to take delivery, yet I've extensive
experience from land structures trolling grunt and drum, the red and
the snook. Other times I take up 3/4 mesh and toss a 12-foot castnet
simply into the current. I drank my first cup of coffee here, after
trolling, and must have considered it good;-- flung hard and fast from
nights on drifting tides, under the shimmering silver at the wake of
the moon alongside the Gulfstream, where denizens found are cast
slipping and slidding, slapping and smacking, gasping, before
subsiding. Alas, if to account my family lineage as well here, Irish
and German stock, I should be known a cut more than from just troll,
and made further so by an added dash of mongrel.
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Date: 23 Aug 2006 21:53:21
From:
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Romeo Golf has, I believe, misread Ukers. In the passage quoted (p.43
in the 1922 1st ed) I beleive Ukers is referencing the first bringing
of a small quantity of coffee beans, as samples or for personal use to
Amsterdam with the first commercial importation of coffee beans there
dating to 1616, and the first commercial sale being in 1640. We are
left to wonder what became of the 1616 shipment. Ukers does not make
mention of the botanical garden.
Ukers is a heavilly annotated and researched document. It is not
perfect, as readers of Ian Bersten's wonderful Coffee Floats Tea Sinks
(Helian Books, 1993, ISBN: 0646091808) know, still it is in many
respects the best and most comprehensive book on coffee so far
published in the English language, even after 84 years.
Michael Sivetz, in Coffee Origin and Use (Ch.1 P.2, Coffee
Publications, Corvallis OR,1977) states, ""In 1706, a coffee shrub from
Java was placed in the Amsterdam botanical garden." SCAA Lifetime
Achievement honoree, Sivetz does not reference a specific source for
this fact in this comprehensive book on coffee.
-Donald Schoenholt
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Date: 23 Aug 2006 19:47:52
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Romeo Golf wrote:
> I appreciate your bringing this to my attention. A lot of it could be
> based on fact. In any case, it could put me in an inspirational mood.
> I'll be getting it.
Wikipedia has a nice runup on coffee and sundry links. Few eye openers
in there - an effect coffee had on early speculative investing, and an
aspect of groups that frequented coffee houses as devotees to
respective interests and arts. The English King, George, actually
instituted an act to bar what he perceived as adversely affected coffee
drinkers. Interesting read, the king's wording. Not exactly a
gin-sodden class, coffee drinkers, it was widely derided and repealed
in very short order. Arabian origins, too - bit of a wrestle from an
intended monopoly, I gather.
"Tomorrow I will be born someone else in another place. I have not yet
chosen. This morning, though-ahhh, this life! When my eyes had
learned to focus, I looked out at sunshine on trampled grass and I saw
vigorous people going about the sweet activities of their lives.
Where...oh where has all of that vigor gone?" -God Emperor of Dune,
The Stolen Journels.
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Date: 23 Aug 2006 17:21:38
From: Romeo Golf
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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Mark,
I appreciate your bringing this to my attention. A lot of it could be
based on fact. In any case, it could put me in an inspirational mood.
I'll be getting it.
On a related note, you may want to read "Max Havelaar" by Multatuli --
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140445161/adventurocity. I've
just started reading it...
RG
CoffeeKid wrote:
> As almost an aside and sorry to take away from the serious historical
> discussion (which I'm completely digging on), I just finished reading a
> fiction book called "The Coffee Trader" which is a story about the
> first person to try and corner the market on coffee on the Amsterdam
> market back in the 15th century. Interesting book, but not much
> historical fact, other than talking about the first coffee houses in
> the multi-national and multi-religious city of Amsterdam were run by
> Turks.
>
> Mark
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 07:03:35
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
i840coffee@optonline.net wrote:
> Romeo Golf has, I believe, misread Ukers. In the passage quoted (p.43
> in the 1922 1st ed) I beleive Ukers is referencing the first bringing
> of a small quantity of coffee beans, as samples or for personal use to
> Amsterdam with the first commercial importation of coffee beans there
> dating to 1616, and the first commercial sale being in 1640. We are
> left to wonder what became of the 1616 shipment. Ukers does not make
> mention of the botanical garden.
> Ukers is a heavilly annotated and researched document. It is not
> perfect, as readers of Ian Bersten's wonderful Coffee Floats Tea Sinks
> (Helian Books, 1993, ISBN: 0646091808) know, still it is in many
> respects the best and most comprehensive book on coffee so far
> published in the English language, even after 84 years.
>
> Michael Sivetz, in Coffee Origin and Use (Ch.1 P.2, Coffee
> Publications, Corvallis OR,1977) states, ""In 1706, a coffee shrub from
> Java was placed in the Amsterdam botanical garden." SCAA Lifetime
> Achievement honoree, Sivetz does not reference a specific source for
> this fact in this comprehensive book on coffee.
>
> -Donald Schoenholt
That would be forty-two years after the same botanist who introduced
the tulip annotated a description of coffee to incipient western
audiences. Eight years later a European traveler also happened to come
to Amsterdam, subsequent to touring the Names of the Levant, to publish
a travelogue that included customary instances of Arabic coffee
consumption. It would appear no less a time not to forgo a note the
Italian presence engenders as one germanely prevalent to a cultivated
coffee manerism. United East Indies ventures, by then past half a
chartered Asian colonization policy was, when Mocha is historically
noted in the 1616 holds, intended for and so to monopolize a practise
that interestingly evolved within the early forefront of capitalism
through stock offerings.
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 18:47:31
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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i840coffee@optonline.net wrote:
> "It would appear no less a time not to forgo a note the Italian
> presence engenders as one germanely prevalent to a cultivated coffee
> manerism. United East Indies ventures, by then past half a chartered
> Asian colonization policy was, when Mocha is historically
> noted in the 1616 holds, intended for and so to monopolize a practise
> that interestingly evolved within the early forefront of capitalism
> through stock offerings."
>
>
> Dear Flasherly,
>
> I am interested in your views, and I do not respond with malice, but I
> do not understand the forgoing passage that you have posted. Could you
> please explain what it is that you mean to say, as the passage as it
> appears in your alt.coffee post is not written in a language that I
> understand.
Other than having noted apparent Amsterdam Italian contacts prior to
Dutch trading, or a few sidenotes on trading I thought stimulating, I
can see where a delemma presented in the two specific origin points
you've cited present no less a challenge than before. What I should
therefore assay to inform you, I'm afraid, is that I believe it not to
be what is equivocally important, so posed in a matter elucidation to
better defer, or to understand at face value, within such regards I
duly would, of course, when in fact that I take to hand and spur such
endeavors you do continue, to be perfectly obvious, with only the
sincerest estimation and hope you indeed may.
With fondest conveyances good sir, i840coffee.
-Flasherly
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 22:20:08
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote in message
news:1156470451.301384.31670@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
> Other than having noted apparent Amsterdam Italian contacts prior to
> Dutch trading, or a few sidenotes on trading I thought stimulating, I
> can see where a delemma presented in the two specific origin points
> you've cited present no less a challenge than before. What I should
> therefore assay to inform you, I'm afraid, is that I believe it not to
> be what is equivocally important, so posed in a matter elucidation to
> better defer, or to understand at face value, within such regards I
> duly would, of course, when in fact that I take to hand and spur such
> endeavors you do continue, to be perfectly obvious, with only the
> sincerest estimation and hope you indeed may.
>
> With fondest conveyances good sir, i840coffee.
> -Flasherly
>
l,et me guess; first you wrote this in latin, then ran it through the
Alta-Vista web translater to turn it into Russian. After Russian, you had
altavista translate it from Russian into Serbo-Croatian, then to Estonian,
then Arabic, then Chinese, Thai, and finally back into English.
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Date: 25 Aug 2006 06:24:35
From: Mathew Hargreaves
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
Hi Ken,
I was thinking a similar thought. I have had some German ebay
sellers mention the alta Vista translations, of my English text, was
incomprehensible to them. However I am able to figure out foreign
languages the A.V. system meat-grinders out for me.
In defence of the writer under criticizm, it could be a foreign
well-educated person, writing in a stiff English (British) style of
language. It has an academic feel to it and also feels like a second
laguage for the writer. And I find most academic writings damned near
incomprehensible until I run them through A.V. Babblefish.
CHEERS...Matt
Ken Fox wrote:
>
> "Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote in message
> news:1156470451.301384.31670@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >>
> > Other than having noted apparent Amsterdam Italian contacts prior to
> > Dutch trading, or a few sidenotes on trading I thought stimulating, I
> > can see where a delemma presented in the two specific origin points
> > you've cited present no less a challenge than before. What I should
> > therefore assay to inform you, I'm afraid, is that I believe it not to
> > be what is equivocally important, so posed in a matter elucidation to
> > better defer, or to understand at face value, within such regards I
> > duly would, of course, when in fact that I take to hand and spur such
> > endeavors you do continue, to be perfectly obvious, with only the
> > sincerest estimation and hope you indeed may.
> >
> > With fondest conveyances good sir, i840coffee.
> > -Flasherly
> >
>
> l,et me guess; first you wrote this in latin, then ran it through the
> Alta-Vista web translater to turn it into Russian. After Russian, you had
> altavista translate it from Russian into Serbo-Croatian, then to Estonian,
> then Arabic, then Chinese, Thai, and finally back into English.
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Date: 25 Aug 2006 18:14:37
From: Max
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
Flasherly wrote?
> > > Other than having noted apparent Amsterdam Italian contacts prior to
> > > Dutch trading, or a few sidenotes on trading I thought stimulating, I
> > > can see where a delemma presented in the two specific origin points
> > > you've cited present no less a challenge than before. What I should
> > > therefore assay to inform you, I'm afraid, is that I believe it not to
> > > be what is equivocally important, so posed in a matter elucidation to
> > > better defer, or to understand at face value, within such regards I
> > > duly would, of course, when in fact that I take to hand and spur such
> > > endeavors you do continue, to be perfectly obvious, with only the
> > > sincerest estimation and hope you indeed may.
> > >
> > > With fondest conveyances good sir, i840coffee.
> > > -Flasherly
Ken Fox wrote:
> > let me guess; first you wrote this in latin, then ran it through the
> > Alta-Vista web translater to turn it into Russian. After Russian, you had
> > altavista translate it from Russian into Serbo-Croatian, then to Estonian,
> > then Arabic, then Chinese, Thai, and finally back into English.
Maybe he's related to Professor Irwin Corey. http://www.irwincorey.org/
Mathew wrote:
> In defence of the writer under criticizm, it could be a foreign
> well-educated person, writing in a stiff English (British) style of
> language. It has an academic feel to it and also feels like a second
> laguage for the writer. And I find most academic writings damned near
> incomprehensible until I run them through A.V. Babblefish.
No, I think 'Flasherly' is posting from Florida. My guess is
he is just trolling.
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Date: 26 Aug 2006 14:18:31
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:20:08 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net> wrote in message
>news:1156470451.301384.31670@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>
>>..., within such regards I
>> duly would, of course, when in fact that I take to hand and spur such
>> endeavors you do continue, to be perfectly obvious, with only the
>> sincerest estimation and hope you indeed may.
>>
>
>l,et me guess; first you wrote this in latin, then ran it through the
>Alta-Vista web translater to turn it into Russian....
Middling Galworthy pastiche
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Date: 25 Aug 2006 02:41:15
From: HV
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
Hi guys,
Romeo Golf wrote:
> Does anyone know of a comprehensive or definitive source on who brought
> coffee to the Hortus Botanicus in Amsterdam, from where, and how?
>
> The histories I've read are general and inconsistent -- one says Mocha,
> another Malabar, others Java.
>
>
> Thanks!
The "Malabar connection", is documented in the Dutch book: "Koffie in
Nederland" (1994) by Pim Reinders, Thera Wijsenbeek et. al., Walburg
Pers (Gemeente Museums Delft) ISBN: 90-6011-877-4
According to the book (long story slightly shorter); around 1700, Johan
van Hoorn, a Dutch governor in Batavia, received coffee plants (or
seedlings) from VOC officials in the Malabar coast area. Coffee was
known, and traded in India at the time, but it is unsure whether these
plants were actually brought from Yemen to India by the Dutch (VOC
people or otherwise).
At any rate, Van Hoorn planted the coffee plants at his Batavian estate.
With some success too; some of the trees bore fruits after a few years.
In 1704, he encouraged local tribe leaders to plant the seeds from the
berries, thus effectively started the first Batavian plantations. The
birth of Java!
Later, around 1706, Van Hoorn sent a number of seedlings from these
trees to mayor of Amsterdam and former VOC merchant Nicolaas Witsen who
planted these in the Hortus Botanicus in Amsterdam. Witsen claims to
have pressed Van Hoorn to cultivate coffee in Batavia.
Seeds and seedlings from the fruits of the coffee trees in the Amsterdam
Hortus found their way to a miscellany of botanical gardens elsewhere in
Europe.
About "Koffie in Nederland" - Reinders and Wijsenbeek, as well as most
of the other authors are historians. The book was written as an in-depth
companion for the exposition of the same name, by the Delft City
Museums. It is a well-documented and annotated book. With the most
important parts leading up to it, the above history alone, includes some
dozen references. Several of these date back to the early 18th century,
and some are original VOC documents.
Obviously, I've not been able to actually read or verify the above
sources (and, to be honest, I've some doubt I ever will be), nor have I
seen other material confirming the above.
Curiously yours,
Cheers,
HV
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Date: 25 Aug 2006 03:37:54
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
|
On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 02:41:15 +0200, HV
<r.j.vriesendorp@planet.nl.SPAM.YE.NOT > wrote:
>Obviously, I've not been able to actually read or verify the above
>sources (and, to be honest, I've some doubt I ever will be), nor have I
>seen other material confirming the above.
>
>Curiously yours,
>
>Cheers,
>HV
Long time, no hear! What have you been up to, HV? I assume you've
graduated. On your way to General Counsel of Douwe Egberts?
Marshall
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Date: 24 Aug 2006 16:56:53
From:
Subject: Re: History: Arrival of Coffee in Amsterdam
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"It would appear no less a time not to forgo a note the Italian
presence engenders as one germanely prevalent to a cultivated coffee
manerism. United East Indies ventures, by then past half a chartered
Asian colonization policy was, when Mocha is historically
noted in the 1616 holds, intended for and so to monopolize a practise
that interestingly evolved within the early forefront of capitalism
through stock offerings."
Dear Flasherly,
I am interested in your views, and I do not respond with malice, but I
do not understand the forgoing passage that you have posted. Could you
please explain what it is that you mean to say, as the passage as it
appears in your alt.coffee post is not written in a language that I
understand.
Thank you.
Donald Schoenholt
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