How could this possible make espresso?

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Date: 01 Sep 2006 18:29:16
From: Alan
Subject: How could this possible make espresso?

This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that it
makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts of
a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
ideas?

Date: 02 Sep 2006 08:12:31
From: Rusty
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

The key is the seller's statement;
This could feasibly be used, but the intended purpose is decorative at this
point.

Rusty

"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:0__Jg.13687$%j7.9374@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that
> it makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just
> parts of a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display
> base. Any ideas?
>

Date: 01 Sep 2006 18:48:24
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

Rusty wrote:
> The key is the seller's statement;
> This could feasibly be used, but the intended purpose is decorative at this
> point.

...for very small values of "feasibly."

--
St. John
Let the machine do the dirty work.
-"Elements of Programming Style", Kernighan and Ritchie

Date: 01 Sep 2006 23:10:16
From: Troy and Susan
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

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Entirely feasible if you'd build a machine under it.

"St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com > wrote in message =
news:edadbo$u4e$1@n4vu2.n4vu.com...
Rusty wrote:
> The key is the seller's statement;
> This could feasibly be used, but the intended purpose is decorative =
at this=20
> point.

...for very small values of "feasibly."

--=20
St. John
Let the machine do the dirty work.
-"Elements of Programming Style", Kernighan and Ritchie
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<DIV ><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Entirely feasible if you'd build a =
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href=3D"mailto:sinjen@n4vu.com" >sinjen@n4vu.com</A>> wrote in =
message <A=20
=
href=3D"news:edadbo$u4e$1@n4vu2.n4vu.com" >news:edadbo$u4e$1@n4vu2.n4vu.co=
m</A >...</DIV>Rusty=20
wrote:<BR >> The key is the seller's statement;<BR>> This =
could=20
feasibly be used, but the intended purpose is decorative at this =
<BR >>=20
point.<BR ><BR>...for very small values of "feasibly."<BR><BR>-- =
<BR >St.=20
John<BR >Let the machine do the dirty work.<BR> =
-"Elements of=20
Programming Style", Kernighan and Ritchie</BLOCKQUOTE ></BODY></HTML>

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Date: 07 Sep 2006 07:09:07
From: Robster
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

On 1-Sep-2006, the Robster wrote:

Had to laugh at yer response. Reminds me of the phrase
I use - that I can't remember where I heard first, "two plus
two never equals five even for very large values of two".

Make my day!
~Robt~

> Rusty wrote:
> > The key is the seller's statement;
> > This could feasibly be used, but the intended purpose is decorative at
> > this
> > point.
>
> ...for very small values of "feasibly."
>
> --
> St. John
> Let the machine do the dirty work.
> -"Elements of Programming Style", Kernighan and Ritchie

Date: 01 Sep 2006 14:25:05
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:

>This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
>insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that it
>makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts of
>a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
>ideas?
>

I agree completely with your estimation as to it's being kludged
together from only part of an old machine. And the 20 pound estimate
on it's weight would (IMO) only cover the marble base at best unless
all that brass is thin sheet metal.

Randy "it's a what?" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com

Date: 01 Sep 2006 12:19:34
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

Alan wrote:
> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that it
> makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts of
> a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
> ideas?

"This could feasibly be used, but the intended purpose is decorative at
this point."

Looks to me you're right and haven't asked if he would mind making up
his mind.

Feasibly intended emphatically denotes other than actual useage. If it
doesn't make espresso, and aside he whispers to you it does (assuming
you then believe him and buy it), he's in no way culpable for actions
you follow after having publicly stating his issue with fair faith.
Should you, and find yourself subsequently dissatisfied, what you're
left holding is lack of comprehension. What you have to do is get him
to ascertainably write or in front of witnesses, to say what you claim,
and report back your evidence to auction arbitrators in order to have
him disqualified from participating in further sales matters.
Deliberately misleading people in commerce is called fraud. Ebay is
very active in such matters I've read.

Date: 01 Sep 2006 12:07:43
From: Phil P
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

Date: 01 Sep 2006 14:25:04
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

On 1 Sep 2006 12:07:43 -0700, "Phil P" <charneybarn@yahoo.com > wrote:

>
>Alan wrote:
>> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
>> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that it
>> makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts of
>> a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
>> ideas?
>
>I wonder if that was mounted on the bar and fed from beneath with hot
>water / steam from a central reservoir. Maybe plumbing for the
>catch-pot drain too. The pointy finnial on top could conceivably be
>somekind of start/stop valve. It would make a great roaster's window
>display ornament if nothing else ;)

I agree, it looks like the group and cup holder from a 1910 to 1950
vintage espresso machine (considered to be steam toys by todays
standards).

There is no way of making espresso with it short of taking it off the
marble base, brazing in an extension to the water pipe and welding it
to a steam boiler.

"Actually MADE espresso" may be a more accurate description.

Date: 01 Sep 2006 17:04:54
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

I'm not even sure it's that much - could just be a modern decorative piece
made in India, where they do a lot of "antique" style brass work.

All the antique Bezzeras, Pavonis, etc. that I've seen had the group heads
coming off the side of the boiler vertically.

"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:i22hf25cj5mvq7rdhq2mjknd48cea9aqi3@4ax.com...
> On 1 Sep 2006 12:07:43 -0700, "Phil P" <charneybarn@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Alan wrote:
>>> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
>>> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and
>>> that it
>>> makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts
>>> of
>>> a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base.
>>> Any
>>> ideas?
>>
>>I wonder if that was mounted on the bar and fed from beneath with hot
>>water / steam from a central reservoir. Maybe plumbing for the
>>catch-pot drain too. The pointy finnial on top could conceivably be
>>somekind of start/stop valve. It would make a great roaster's window
>>display ornament if nothing else ;)
>
> I agree, it looks like the group and cup holder from a 1910 to 1950
> vintage espresso machine (considered to be steam toys by todays
> standards).
>
> There is no way of making espresso with it short of taking it off the
> marble base, brazing in an extension to the water pipe and welding it
> to a steam boiler.
>
> "Actually MADE espresso" may be a more accurate description.

Date: 01 Sep 2006 17:08:03
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:04:54 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>
>All the antique Bezzeras, Pavonis, etc. that I've seen had the group heads
>coming off the side of the boiler vertically.

I've never seen this group; but there are horizontal boiler steam
machines from the 30s and 40s. This one's in fine Mussolini style and
could have done a cameo as Darth Vader's espresso machine:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/jim_schulman/macchcaffe.jpg

Date: 01 Sep 2006 19:58:12
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

But not with that style of drip tray and the early appearance that the one
in the picture has -

The tray looks like it belongs on a machine like this:

http://www.lapavoni.com/new/images/popup/1905.gif

or this:

http://www.altravita.de/Espresso/images/bezzera1903.jpg

By the time horizontal boilers came around in the 30s, the styling was much
more art deco/streamlined than what is in the auction, as your Darth Vader
machine illustrates.

The auctioned tray and PF looks 1920 ish at the latest and possibly ever
earlier (if it is real at all). The auction does identify it as 1900-1920.
I'm also not sure whether this is a "marriage" between a tray from one
machine and group head (or imaginary group head) from another.

"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:2ibhf2dfbmcai82drl211ump3jg2cvme3a@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:04:54 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>All the antique Bezzeras, Pavonis, etc. that I've seen had the group heads
>>coming off the side of the boiler vertically.
>
> I've never seen this group; but there are horizontal boiler steam
> machines from the 30s and 40s. This one's in fine Mussolini style and
> could have done a cameo as Darth Vader's espresso machine:
> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/jim_schulman/macchcaffe.jpg

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 01 Sep 2006 19:23:03
From: Alan
Subject: Re: How could this possibly make espresso?

"Phil P" <charneybarn@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1157137663.637806.232650@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
>
> Alan wrote:
>> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
>> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that
>> it
>> makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts
>> of
>> a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
>> ideas?
>
> I wonder if that was mounted on the bar and fed from beneath with hot
> water / steam from a central reservoir. Maybe plumbing for the
> catch-pot drain too. The pointy finnial on top could conceivably be
> somekind of start/stop valve. It would make a great roaster's window
> display ornament if nothing else ;)

I think you're right. Either the seller is being intentionally misleading,
or they just plain don't know what they're talking about . . .

Date: 14 Oct 2006 03:28:47
From: Alan
Subject: Re: How could this possibly make espresso?

"Phil P" wrote
>
> Alan wrote:
>> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
>> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that
>> it
>> makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts
>> of
>> a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
>> ideas?
>
> I wonder if that was mounted on the bar and fed from beneath with hot
> water / steam from a central reservoir. Maybe plumbing for the
> catch-pot drain too. The pointy finnial on top could conceivably be
> somekind of start/stop valve. It would make a great roaster's window
> display ornament if nothing else ;)

Patience sometimes rewards research.

The item discussed above (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba), which was offered on
EBay in early September for $475.00 with no takers, is now being offered
again for $150.00 (http://tinyurl.com/y5c89t), with the seller still
referring to it as an "Espresso Maker" and still maintaining that it "could
feasibly be used".

In the meantime, Jack Denver posted a link (http://tinyurl.com/yyeph6) to
Ukers's "All About Coffee" book which, lo and behold, has an illustration
(on page 619) of an early Italian domestic espresso maker (the La Victoria
Arduino "Mignonne") which bears a strong resemblance to the item offered for
sale on EBay. Strikingly similar large brass vertical goose-neck stem
ending in the group and very similar cup platform, but with the crucial
difference that the "Mignonne" looks like it could actually make
espresso ---- instead of just a marble slab, it's got a compartment below it
big enough for a boiler, and complete with what looks like a water inlet
valve and an electric cord trailing out of it.

For easy comparison, I'm posting pictures of both on alt.binaries.coffee . .
.

P.S. EBay has an "Ask Seller a Question" option --- it might be interesting
to see what kind of response the Seller would give if she were to be asked
about how the piece "could feasibly be used" . . .

Date: 02 Sep 2006 06:38:50
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

I concur with the suggestion that this joker found some pieces that
would connect to each other and added an old slab of marble that he had
in stock.

Decorative art, at best.

Will

Date: 02 Sep 2006 04:07:09
From: Phil P
Subject: Re: How could this possible make espresso?

Looking at it again in the light of previous comments, the group and PF
are a different shade of brass from the body, and the PF handle looks
suspiciously un-worn. The main body OTOH looks like it could be
reasonably old, having some blemishes. The pointed thing on top just
looks wrong. I wonder if this is a converted old beer-tap stand ?
Coffee paraphernalia (sp) is probably more saleable/valuable than old
beer hardware.

jim schulman wrote:
> What puzzles me is the style of machine you show usually didn't have
> the swan neck connection from boiler to group.
>
> My first reaction looking at the thing was that it was bits off a
> retro domestic machine from the 50s.
>
> It takes novelistic talent to think of a possible provenance for a
> 1910 vintage group finding itsr way into a contemporary faux marble
> gew-gaw. The India story seems likeliest.
>
> The interesting thing is the 100% approval rating of the high volume
> seller. Chachkes packrats seem easily satisfied.
>
>
> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 19:58:12 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >But not with that style of drip tray and the early appearance that the one
> >in the picture has -
> >
> >The tray looks like it belongs on a machine like this:
> >
> >
> >http://www.lapavoni.com/new/images/popup/1905.gif
> >
> > or this:
> >
> >http://www.altravita.de/Espresso/images/bezzera1903.jpg
> >
> >By the time horizontal boilers came around in the 30s, the styling was much
> >more art deco/streamlined than what is in the auction, as your Darth Vader
> >machine illustrates.
> >
> >The auctioned tray and PF looks 1920 ish at the latest and possibly ever
> >earlier (if it is real at all). The auction does identify it as 1900-1920.
> >I'm also not sure whether this is a "marriage" between a tray from one
> >machine and group head (or imaginary group head) from another.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> >news:2ibhf2dfbmcai82drl211ump3jg2cvme3a@4ax.com...
> >> On Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:04:54 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> >> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>All the antique Bezzeras, Pavonis, etc. that I've seen had the group heads
> >>>coming off the side of the boiler vertically.
> >>
> >> I've never seen this group; but there are horizontal boiler steam
> >> machines from the 30s and 40s. This one's in fine Mussolini style and
> >> could have done a cameo as Darth Vader's espresso machine:
> >> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/jim_schulman/macchcaffe.jpg
> >

Date: 16 Oct 2006 04:00:42
From: Phil P
Subject: Re: How could this possibly make espresso?

Alan wrote:
> "Phil P" wrote
> >
> > Alan wrote:
> >> This item (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba) is for sale on ebay, and the seller
> >> insists that the item is shown in its entirety, is non-electric, and that
> >> it
> >> makes espresso. Frankly, I'm puzzled. Looks to me like it's just parts
> >> of
> >> a larger contraption that have been bolted to a marble display base. Any
> >> ideas?
> >
> > I wonder if that was mounted on the bar and fed from beneath with hot
> > water / steam from a central reservoir. Maybe plumbing for the
> > catch-pot drain too. The pointy finnial on top could conceivably be
> > somekind of start/stop valve. It would make a great roaster's window
> > display ornament if nothing else ;)
>
> Patience sometimes rewards research.
>
> The item discussed above (http://tinyurl.com/kvjba), which was offered on
> EBay in early September for $475.00 with no takers, is now being offered
> again for $150.00 (http://tinyurl.com/y5c89t), with the seller still
> referring to it as an "Espresso Maker" and still maintaining that it "could
> feasibly be used".
>
> In the meantime, Jack Denver posted a link (http://tinyurl.com/yyeph6) to
> Ukers's "All About Coffee" book which, lo and behold, has an illustration
> (on page 619) of an early Italian domestic espresso maker (the La Victoria
> Arduino "Mignonne") which bears a strong resemblance to the item offered for
> sale on EBay. Strikingly similar large brass vertical goose-neck stem
> ending in the group and very similar cup platform, but with the crucial
> difference that the "Mignonne" looks like it could actually make
> espresso ---- instead of just a marble slab, it's got a compartment below it
> big enough for a boiler, and complete with what looks like a water inlet
> valve and an electric cord trailing out of it.
>
> For easy comparison, I'm posting pictures of both on alt.binaries.coffee . .
> .
>
> P.S. EBay has an "Ask Seller a Question" option --- it might be interesting
> to see what kind of response the Seller would give if she were to be asked
> about how the piece "could feasibly be used" . . .

The description has now been changed to 'espresso maker parts', the
date range has gone out by 20 yrs and a few more disclaimers added.
They continue to claim for its authenticity though. Still a little
peeved at being taken in, I asked the seller how they had dated the
piece and whether there was any provenance. No reply as yet . . .