| |
Main
Date: 17 Jul 2006 11:41:19
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
While in Italy on business recently I was lucky enough to be invited
into the homes of many of the people I came into contact with. I'd
forgotten how Italians are the most gracious hosts in the world. Kind
of makes me ashamed that I don't have people into my home more often.
When I confessed my 40(ish) year obsession with espresso my hosts
couldn't wait to show me their machines & ask my opinion of their
efforts. Of course they were all fantastic shots, even the ones I had
to choke down (I too can be gracious). I saw many off-brand machines we
don't get in the U.S., and I saw lots of Gaggia's, Faema's & La
Pavoni's - but what I didn't see was a single Rancilio Silvia machine,
not one!
Now I've owned & enjoyed using a Silvia and I've heard all (or at least
all I want to hear) of the propaganda put out hyping the superior
qualities of Silvia, so when not a one showed up in the homes of the
people I visited, to say that I was surprised is an understatement.
These were, as a group, all mid-level or higher managers of high tech
companies, all well educated, all sophisticated, and all with
disposable income that they didn't hesitate to expend.
So, I can't help but wonder why the machine most singled out as the
standard against which all home espresso machines must be measured
against was conspicuously absent from the homes of the people who gave
us espresso in the first place? Does Rancilio not market their consumer
products in their own country? Or maybe they realize they can get a
higher ROI by selling them to Americans who, after all , are the most
gullible consumers in the world?
What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
--
Robert (not dissin' Miss Silvia) Harmon
|
|
| |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 15:13:19
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-17, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote:
> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
I submit the opposite is true. It's not Silvie's invisibilty
elsewhere, but its almost obsessively high profile here in ac. I go
to other websites, retail stores, even dedicated espresso retailers
and see no hordes of Silvie's. In fact, I recall when I first started
lurking here, Silvie's were seldom mentioned. Gaggia's were much more
popular. Over the years, with Andy Schecter leading and a gaggle of
geeks in tow, a much more sophisticated and hardcore group has latched
onto the Silvie and it has risen to prominence. So be it.
I have no problem with Silvie's being the consumer gold standard.
There can be no doubt it's a good machine and deserving of its rep. I
even suspect there's somewhat of an image factor at work, here. Kinda
like Harley-Davidson. But, not everyone aspires to one. Now that I
have an SL90, I'm content. If I do trade up, it will be for something
beyond, like a prosumer machine. Would I recommend one? Most
certainly. Will I buy one? Not likely unless, like the SL90, I get a
deal I can't refuse. ;)
nb
|
| | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 13:38:41
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote:
>On 2006-07-17, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
>
>I submit the opposite is true. It's not Silvie's invisibilty
>elsewhere, but its almost obsessively high profile here in ac. I go
>to other websites, retail stores, even dedicated espresso retailers
>and see no hordes of Silvie's. In fact, I recall when I first started
>lurking here, Silvie's were seldom mentioned. Gaggia's were much more
>popular. Over the years, with Andy Schecter leading and a gaggle of
>geeks in tow, a much more sophisticated and hardcore group has latched
>onto the Silvie and it has risen to prominence. So be it.
>
>I have no problem with Silvie's being the consumer gold standard.
>There can be no doubt it's a good machine and deserving of its rep. I
>even suspect there's somewhat of an image factor at work, here. Kinda
>like Harley-Davidson. But, not everyone aspires to one. Now that I
>have an SL90, I'm content. If I do trade up, it will be for something
>beyond, like a prosumer machine. Would I recommend one? Most
>certainly. Will I buy one? Not likely unless, like the SL90, I get a
>deal I can't refuse. ;)
>
>nb
It was about 6 years ago that Mark P. (Coffeekid) began sharing his
excitement over the Silvia here on a.c. and on his website IIRC. The
fact that it has maintained its reputation over that time here and can
be found for sale at virtually every major reseller of espresso
equipment on the net speaks to it's well-earned reputation. I am not
saying that Silvia is the best in that or any other price range, and
some of the Gaggias also are excllent machines as well, but Silvia
has excellent looks (subjective) the all-stainless exterior is easy to
keep looking nice,. and there is a vastly-deep ocean of resource
material on the net to assist anyone who needs it. And other than
items that would be considered service items on any such machine (a
few gaskets, and a brew thermostat once in a while) it has proven to
be an extremely reliable that has been updated and improved upon over
the years to be even more so. And owning a Silvia compared to the
"image" of owning a Harley....? Somewhat absurd. No one tows their
Silvia to somewhere to then make espresso.
And I will add:
-My Silvia can out-handle a Harley
-No part has ever just fallen off my Silvia
-I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
Randy "nohd4me" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 16:42:40
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-17, Randy G <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
> the years to be even more so. And owning a Silvia compared to the
> "image" of owning a Harley....? Somewhat absurd. No one tows their
> Silvia to somewhere to then make espresso.
>
> And I will add:
> -My Silvia can out-handle a Harley
> -No part has ever just fallen off my Silvia
> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
Your knowledge of the Silvie is renown. You knowledge of H-D is an
embarrassment.
nb
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 11:46:00
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
>> the years to be even more so. And owning a Silvia compared to the
>> "image" of owning a Harley....? Somewhat absurd. No one tows their
>> Silvia to somewhere to then make espresso.
>>
>> And I will add:
>> -My Silvia can out-handle a Harley
>> -No part has ever just fallen off my Silvia
>> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
>
> Your knowledge of the Silvie is renown. You knowledge of H-D is an
> embarrassment.
>
I know a Harley Dealer, sounds right to me :)
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 02:39:11
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
In article <4i2ks1F1t48aU1@individual.net >,
Brent <me@privacy.net > wrote:
> >> the years to be even more so. And owning a Silvia compared to the
> >> "image" of owning a Harley....? Somewhat absurd. No one tows their
> >> Silvia to somewhere to then make espresso.
> >>
> >> And I will add:
> >> -My Silvia can out-handle a Harley
> >> -No part has ever just fallen off my Silvia
> >> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
> >
> > Your knowledge of the Silvie is renown. You knowledge of H-D is an
> > embarrassment.
> >
> I know a Harley Dealer, sounds right to me :)
What? The kick... ;))
One owned by the Dealer-Principal of a garage just
three or four miles from me.. out in the wilds of the
English countryside - at least two or three hedged
fields from the next hamlet!
He had to collect the beast from the importers, all
nicely boxed-up with stovein planks, insecure fastenings
and, of course, no rustproofing or waxing to protect
against the North Atlantic elements encountered in it's
sea voyage.
The rusted wheels - it was brand new - were replaced
as was much of the chrome-work and, after some re-fettling,
the machine finally growled into life, throbbing in that
peculiar fashion known only to a Harley-Davidson. (I
guess it's the throbbing that attracts those western
state hairy bikers, with leathers and skull helmets,
that we see over here in 'Easy Rider' and such)!
Anyway ..it seems to work, sort of.. bit wallowy cf
a big Yamaha, Honda or suchlike - and nothing like
the red 1961 'E' Type - or the 1927 Citroen Van.. but
a useful curious crowd-puller at events that pull such
curious crowds!
..anyway... ;'))
Bill ZFC
--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
|
| | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 15:41:00
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 16:42:40 -0500, notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote:
>On 2006-07-17, Randy G <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>
>> the years to be even more so. And owning a Silvia compared to the
>> "image" of owning a Harley....? Somewhat absurd. No one tows their
>> Silvia to somewhere to then make espresso.
>>
>> And I will add:
>> -My Silvia can out-handle a Harley
>> -No part has ever just fallen off my Silvia
>> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
>
>Your knowledge of the Silvie is renown. You knowledge of H-D is an
>embarrassment.
>
I do not claim to know a lot about them, but I have stopped to assist
enough oftem along roadways, wired one from scratch, my brother has
owned four or five, and I have listened to enough complaints from
owners of Buells to know I wouldnt want to own one
"My dick is a Harley- you kick it to start."
F. Zappa - the white album IIRC
Randy "one good bike is all ya need" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
|
| | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 20:22:36
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-17, Randy G <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
>>> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
> "My dick is a Harley- you kick it to start."
Feel free to reinforce my point. Harley hasn't made a kickstart
motorcycle in 20 years.
nb
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 01:56:59
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
Ha, reminds me of a buddy of mine in college. He rode a Beezer 500 & was a
pretty fair rider in the hare & hounds we used to set up around College
Station. One of the football jocks showed up to ride with us on his new,
alumni gift Sportster & my friend talked him into switching bikes for the
ride. He jumps on the Sportster, folds out the starter, gets it on the right
angle, jumps up into the air, & lands full force on the starter. It starts
to rotate down, hits compression & kicks back, sending my friend about ten
feet straight up. He had to buy the beers for the whole day to keep us from
riding his sorry butt. Love those old HD's.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"notbob" <notbob@nothome.com > wrote in message
news:lZudnSGozodBqiHZnZ2dnUVZ_qudnZ2d@comcast.com...
> On 2006-07-17, Randy G <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>
>>>> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
>
>> "My dick is a Harley- you kick it to start."
>
> Feel free to reinforce my point. Harley hasn't made a kickstart
> motorcycle in 20 years.
>
> nb
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 21:19:15
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-18, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Ha, reminds me of a buddy of mine in college. He rode a Beezer 500....
Oh yeah! Those ol' Brit singles were not above showing a careless
rider what for. Fortunately, many, like my ol' Matchless G80CS,
usually had a manual compression release and/or spark retard. Sporties
ran magnetos right up to 1969, but had a manual spark retard. If the
cable broke and was not repaired, severe kick-back was a very painful
possibility.
nb
|
| | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 21:50:04
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
I am not
> saying that Silvia is the best in that or any other price range, and
> some of the Gaggias also are excllent machines as well, but Silvia
> has excellent looks (subjective) the all-stainless exterior is easy to
> keep looking nice,. and there is a vastly-deep ocean of resource
> material on the net to assist anyone who needs it. And other than
> items that would be considered service items on any such machine (a
> few gaskets, and a brew thermostat once in a while) it has proven to
> be an extremely reliable that has been updated and improved upon over
> the years to be even more so.
Gosh - that was the only reason I still read this stuff so I could join
battle on a good old fashioned Really Important Discussion.
and now the subject has surfaced again, it all seems pointless.
Ken "still the best coffee in Gosport" W
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 11:06:44
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
It's interesting though that Mark's other "flame" - the Livia, seems to have
burned out (often literally) and has not stood the test of time but Silvia
still seems to be THE aspirational single boiler machine when price is no
object. One explanation is that there are now even sexier e-61 based
machines in the Livia price class (but this is not a complete explanation -
the e-61 machines were there alongside Livia to begin with), while in the
Silvia price class there is no clear competitor of equal or greater
quality/curb appeal that has emerged.
I have to say that with the price of Silvia edging up toward the price of a
low edge HX machine (e.g. a Bezzera BZ02) I have a hard time understanding
the appeal - the exception being those people who never steam milk and use
their machines only at certain times of the day (morning) and who want "god
shots" to the exclusion of all other factors. Otherwise, having a HX (or
dual boiler) machine plugged in 24/7 is a whole different level of utility
and walk up convenience - like the difference between having a well where
you draw buckets of water vs. having indoor plumbing. A visitor drops by
mid-afternoon and I can offer them a coffee on a moments notice. I use my
steam wand as a "utility" just like a water faucet - it's usefulness goes
way beyond just steaming milk, for heating and reheating all sorts of food
and beverages (soup, cocoa, boiling water for tea, etc..) Even if I gave up
coffee drinking, I think I might keep my machine plugged in just for the
steam wand.
"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:2isnb2pnlu8crdpi2rpu9qmpkjropcqqq1@4ax.com...
> notbob <notbob@nothome.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2006-07-17, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
>>
>>I submit the opposite is true. It's not Silvie's invisibilty
>>elsewhere, but its almost obsessively high profile here in ac. I go
>>to other websites, retail stores, even dedicated espresso retailers
>>and see no hordes of Silvie's. In fact, I recall when I first started
>>lurking here, Silvie's were seldom mentioned. Gaggia's were much more
>>popular. Over the years, with Andy Schecter leading and a gaggle of
>>geeks in tow, a much more sophisticated and hardcore group has latched
>>onto the Silvie and it has risen to prominence. So be it.
>>
>>I have no problem with Silvie's being the consumer gold standard.
>>There can be no doubt it's a good machine and deserving of its rep. I
>>even suspect there's somewhat of an image factor at work, here. Kinda
>>like Harley-Davidson. But, not everyone aspires to one. Now that I
>>have an SL90, I'm content. If I do trade up, it will be for something
>>beyond, like a prosumer machine. Would I recommend one? Most
>>certainly. Will I buy one? Not likely unless, like the SL90, I get a
>>deal I can't refuse. ;)
>>
>>nb
>
> It was about 6 years ago that Mark P. (Coffeekid) began sharing his
> excitement over the Silvia here on a.c. and on his website IIRC. The
> fact that it has maintained its reputation over that time here and can
> be found for sale at virtually every major reseller of espresso
> equipment on the net speaks to it's well-earned reputation. I am not
> saying that Silvia is the best in that or any other price range, and
> some of the Gaggias also are excllent machines as well, but Silvia
> has excellent looks (subjective) the all-stainless exterior is easy to
> keep looking nice,. and there is a vastly-deep ocean of resource
> material on the net to assist anyone who needs it. And other than
> items that would be considered service items on any such machine (a
> few gaskets, and a brew thermostat once in a while) it has proven to
> be an extremely reliable that has been updated and improved upon over
> the years to be even more so. And owning a Silvia compared to the
> "image" of owning a Harley....? Somewhat absurd. No one tows their
> Silvia to somewhere to then make espresso.
>
> And I will add:
> -My Silvia can out-handle a Harley
> -No part has ever just fallen off my Silvia
> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
>
>
> Randy "nohd4me" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 11:26:32
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> I have to say that with the price of Silvia edging up toward the price of a
> low edge HX machine (e.g. a Bezzera BZ02) I have a hard time understanding
> the appeal - the exception being those people who never steam milk and use
> their machines only at certain times of the day (morning) and who want "god
> shots" to the exclusion of all other factors.
Aye, that'd be me, exactly. And with a Panasonic thermo pot running
24/7, the hot water needs are covered.
The sex appeal of an E61 machine was almost irresistible, but once I
crossed that line, I'd have had to go all the way with rotary pump,
220V, fully plumbed, etc.
Silvia has a plumbed-in supply, but manually emptied tray; life is good.
--
St. John
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 11:42:43
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
"St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com > wrote in message
news:e9iuj8$rmn$8@n4vu2.n4vu.com...
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> I have to say that with the price of Silvia edging up toward the price of
>> a
>> low edge HX machine (e.g. a Bezzera BZ02) I have a hard time
>> understanding
>> the appeal - the exception being those people who never steam milk and
>> use
>> their machines only at certain times of the day (morning) and who want
>> "god
>> shots" to the exclusion of all other factors.
>
> Aye, that'd be me, exactly. And with a Panasonic thermo pot running
> 24/7, the hot water needs are covered.
I have a plumbed in "Instant Hot" but the water is only 190F - the steam
wand brings it up to a full boil when needed.
>
> The sex appeal of an E61 machine was almost irresistible, but once I
> crossed that line, I'd have had to go all the way with rotary pump,
> 220V, fully plumbed, etc.
Why? I'm not sure I follow the logic. If I could have a base model
automobile for say $1000 more than a motor scooter, it doesn't follow that
I'd have to buy either a fully equipped luxury car or stick with the
scooter.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 12:16:26
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> "St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com> wrote in message
> news:e9iuj8$rmn$8@n4vu2.n4vu.com...
>>The sex appeal of an E61 machine was almost irresistible, but once I
>>crossed that line, I'd have had to go all the way with rotary pump,
>>220V, fully plumbed, etc.
>
> Why? I'm not sure I follow the logic.
Logic? Heh...there you go with assumptions, again. ;)
> If I could have a base model
> automobile for say $1000 more than a motor scooter, it doesn't follow that
> I'd have to buy either a fully equipped luxury car or stick with the
> scooter.
...which suggests that either you've got better sense, or are less
compulsive. However, to strain the analogy, if you were going to buy a
Honda Gold Wing (Silvia) it doesn't take so much of a stretch to prefer
a loaded Accord to a stripper model.
--
St. John
Retired, and earned my eccentricities, fair and square
|
| |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 12:28:11
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
I just thought the Silvia was well respected because it's one of the few
miniaturized brass-boiler machines, 58mm portafilter, solenoid machines over
here. Francis!!, e.g., are overpriced with smaller portafilters. I don't
think people here really think the Silvia is better than, say, an Isomac
Venus, but it's cheaper. It seems better than, say, an Isomac Supergiada.
A lot of us got excited a few years ago when Alan Frew did his boiler
roundup (still viewable on Coffeegeek, I think) and really broke down the
various options out there. He basically concluded, IIRC, that the Quaha
Junior, though lighter etc., was almost just as good as a Silvia, and a lot
of us got excited that the Junior would show up here as a L'elit and be
cheap, like $400 instead of $500, but things didn't turn out quite that way.
The Alan Frew article, actually, was what convinced me to get a Gaggia, and
I'm happy I did.
C
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1153161679.315325.78410@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> While in Italy on business recently I was lucky enough to be invited
> into the homes of many of the people I came into contact with. I'd
> forgotten how Italians are the most gracious hosts in the world. Kind
> of makes me ashamed that I don't have people into my home more often.
>
> When I confessed my 40(ish) year obsession with espresso my hosts
> couldn't wait to show me their machines & ask my opinion of their
> efforts. Of course they were all fantastic shots, even the ones I had
> to choke down (I too can be gracious). I saw many off-brand machines we
> don't get in the U.S., and I saw lots of Gaggia's, Faema's & La
> Pavoni's - but what I didn't see was a single Rancilio Silvia machine,
> not one!
>
> Now I've owned & enjoyed using a Silvia and I've heard all (or at least
> all I want to hear) of the propaganda put out hyping the superior
> qualities of Silvia, so when not a one showed up in the homes of the
> people I visited, to say that I was surprised is an understatement.
> These were, as a group, all mid-level or higher managers of high tech
> companies, all well educated, all sophisticated, and all with
> disposable income that they didn't hesitate to expend.
>
> So, I can't help but wonder why the machine most singled out as the
> standard against which all home espresso machines must be measured
> against was conspicuously absent from the homes of the people who gave
> us espresso in the first place? Does Rancilio not market their consumer
> products in their own country? Or maybe they realize they can get a
> higher ROI by selling them to Americans who, after all , are the most
> gullible consumers in the world?
>
> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
> --
> Robert (not dissin' Miss Silvia) Harmon
>
|
| | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 21:58:57
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
> A lot of us got excited a few years ago when Alan Frew did his boiler
> roundup (still viewable on Coffeegeek, I think) and really broke down the
> various options out there. He basically concluded, IIRC, that the Quaha
> Junior, though lighter etc., was almost just as good as a Silvia, and a
> lot of us got excited that the Junior would show up here as a L'elit and
> be cheap, like $400 instead of $500, but things didn't turn out quite that
> way.
>
Alan is "Coffee for Connoisseurs" BTW
|
| |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 12:12:29
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
Good questions, Robert. I've observed that as well both in Italy and
in the UK, where Rancilio seems almost to be an unknown brand. Is it a
matter of selective marketing or did Silvie manage to acquire a cult
status here that didn't catch on elsewhere?
You obviously have more sophisticated friends than I have, though,
because most of mine just whop a moka pot onto the stove rather than
showing me any real home machines.
But I would broaden your query some. Italy is, indeed, the ancestral
home of espresso. And, to be sure, one can get some very fine examples
there. But I wonder if, in many ways, we haven't passed our
progenitors, at least in some places?
Lets face it, the typical Italian espresso experience is not all that
killing splendid. Queue up, buy your ticket, shove it to the barista,
receive a cup of lukewarm brew, and then be expected to slurp it down
in one or two gulps and get the hell out to make room for others.
I'd rather sit for an hour in a decent American coffeehouse and chat
with friends.
Is this heresy?
Will
Robert Harmon wrote:
> While in Italy on business recently I was lucky enough to be invited
> into the homes of many of the people I came into contact with. I'd
> forgotten how Italians are the most gracious hosts in the world. Kind
> of makes me ashamed that I don't have people into my home more often.
>
> When I confessed my 40(ish) year obsession with espresso my hosts
> couldn't wait to show me their machines & ask my opinion of their
> efforts. Of course they were all fantastic shots, even the ones I had
> to choke down (I too can be gracious). I saw many off-brand machines we
> don't get in the U.S., and I saw lots of Gaggia's, Faema's & La
> Pavoni's - but what I didn't see was a single Rancilio Silvia machine,
> not one!
>
> Now I've owned & enjoyed using a Silvia and I've heard all (or at least
> all I want to hear) of the propaganda put out hyping the superior
> qualities of Silvia, so when not a one showed up in the homes of the
> people I visited, to say that I was surprised is an understatement.
> These were, as a group, all mid-level or higher managers of high tech
> companies, all well educated, all sophisticated, and all with
> disposable income that they didn't hesitate to expend.
>
> So, I can't help but wonder why the machine most singled out as the
> standard against which all home espresso machines must be measured
> against was conspicuously absent from the homes of the people who gave
> us espresso in the first place? Does Rancilio not market their consumer
> products in their own country? Or maybe they realize they can get a
> higher ROI by selling them to Americans who, after all , are the most
> gullible consumers in the world?
>
> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
> --
> Robert (not dissin' Miss Silvia) Harmon
|
| | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 14:03:15
From:
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 17 Jul 2006 12:12:29 -0700, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:
>
>You obviously have more sophisticated friends than I have, though,
>because most of mine just whop
A pun or just an ordinary slur?
>a moka pot onto the stove rather than
>
>Will
>
_______________________________________
Please Note: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate.
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 07:12:00
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
|
| | | |
Date: 26 Jul 2006 04:33:24
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:12:00 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
Ross) wrote:
>Incidentally, I just spent a couple of days in Bozeman, Montana, where I saw
>a Silvia and Rocky for sale on a shelf in one coffee shop. The kitchen shop
>across the street had a few Francis Francis machines. I thought this
>concentration of home pump machines was very impressive for a small town in
>the wild west!
montana has been pretty serious "coffee country" for quite some time.
--barry "tempting"
|
| | | | |
Date: 25 Jul 2006 23:01:42
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:a3sdc2ls6jqmv6dmn6ijfaek3tt0todcv7@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 07:12:00 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
> Ross) wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, I just spent a couple of days in Bozeman, Montana, where I
> >saw
> >a Silvia and Rocky for sale on a shelf in one coffee shop. The kitchen
> >shop
> >across the street had a few Francis Francis machines. I thought this
> >concentration of home pump machines was very impressive for a small town
> >in
> >the wild west!
>
> montana has been pretty serious "coffee country" for quite some time.
>
> --barry "tempting"
There is considerable interest in sheep in Montana, although it doesn't
quite rise to the level that one sees, in say, Wyoming:-) I have heard also
that they have recently discovered indoor plumbing, in some of the larger
towns.
And, Montana is the only state I'm aware of that *might* have a worse road
system than Idaho.
ken
|
| |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 15:46:01
From: Phil Paintin
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenomenon?
|
Coffee for Connoisseurs wrote:
> The main reason that Silvia does not get the same sort of "recognition" in
> Italy (and elsewhere) is quite simple; Rancilio does not have a retail
> distribution network in any real sense. When I started in this business the
> only commonly available domestic espresso machine was Saeco, or machines
> made by Saeco for others. Ever wondered why 53mm was the de-facto standard
> for domestic filter baskets?
>
> IIRC Saeco did not make commercial espresso machines at all (late 1970's)
> and grew through building up a worldwide retail dealer network, gradually
> gaining entry into high end department stores. Gaggia was a different case;
> they had an extensive wholesale dealer network in place from which they also
> sold domestic models, but no department store distribution. When Saeco took
> over Gaggia at the beginning of the century, they immediately revamped the
> range and moved it into department stores etc., but until then even the
> Gaggias were in the situation that the Rancilio Silvia is today. If you
> wanted to buy one you went to a specialist retailer who would probably also
> sell coffee beans as well.
>
I think also the influence of the internet cannot be ignored.
Certainly in the UK, the only way people know about Silvia is via the
'net (unless they happen to walk into the one retail outlet). Mark
Prince's articles were credited for a surge in silvia sales and I
imagine that is what gave him the credibilty to obtain further machines
for review.
I haven't checked, but I suspect there's no where near as much
foreign-language webspace devoted to silvia, and that may explain the
high-profile of the m/c in English-speaking markets.
There was that crazy Taiwanese silvia site though . . .
|
| |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 21:06:37
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1153161679.315325.78410@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> While in Italy on business recently I was lucky enough to be invited
> into the homes of many of the people I came into contact with. I'd
> forgotten how Italians are the most gracious hosts in the world. Kind
> of makes me ashamed that I don't have people into my home more often.
>
> When I confessed my 40(ish) year obsession with espresso my hosts
> couldn't wait to show me their machines & ask my opinion of their
> efforts. Of course they were all fantastic shots, even the ones I had
> to choke down (I too can be gracious). I saw many off-brand machines we
> don't get in the U.S., and I saw lots of Gaggia's, Faema's & La
> Pavoni's - but what I didn't see was a single Rancilio Silvia machine,
> not one!
>
> Now I've owned & enjoyed using a Silvia and I've heard all (or at least
> all I want to hear) of the propaganda put out hyping the superior
> qualities of Silvia, so when not a one showed up in the homes of the
> people I visited, to say that I was surprised is an understatement.
> These were, as a group, all mid-level or higher managers of high tech
> companies, all well educated, all sophisticated, and all with
> disposable income that they didn't hesitate to expend.
>
> So, I can't help but wonder why the machine most singled out as the
> standard against which all home espresso machines must be measured
> against was conspicuously absent from the homes of the people who gave
> us espresso in the first place? Does Rancilio not market their consumer
> products in their own country? Or maybe they realize they can get a
> higher ROI by selling them to Americans who, after all , are the most
> gullible consumers in the world?
>
> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
> --
> Robert (not dissin' Miss Silvia) Harmon
Because, Mark wasn't Italian !! :-))
BMC
>
|
| | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 22:17:08
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenomenon?
|
The main reason that Silvia does not get the same sort of "recognition" in
Italy (and elsewhere) is quite simple; Rancilio does not have a retail
distribution network in any real sense. When I started in this business the
only commonly available domestic espresso machine was Saeco, or machines
made by Saeco for others. Ever wondered why 53mm was the de-facto standard
for domestic filter baskets?
IIRC Saeco did not make commercial espresso machines at all (late 1970's)
and grew through building up a worldwide retail dealer network, gradually
gaining entry into high end department stores. Gaggia was a different case;
they had an extensive wholesale dealer network in place from which they also
sold domestic models, but no department store distribution. When Saeco took
over Gaggia at the beginning of the century, they immediately revamped the
range and moved it into department stores etc., but until then even the
Gaggias were in the situation that the Rancilio Silvia is today. If you
wanted to buy one you went to a specialist retailer who would probably also
sell coffee beans as well.
--
Alan
alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 03:05:16
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenomenon?
|
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:17:08 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
<alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au > wrote:
>range and moved it into department stores etc., but until then even the
>Gaggias were in the situation that the Rancilio Silvia is today. If you
>wanted to buy one you went to a specialist retailer who would probably also
>sell coffee beans as well.
and it was like pulling teeth to get anything out of either the gaggia
or rancilio distributors....
i remember when the saeco rio vapore retailed for $450.
--barry "just threw away the old product sheets a week or so ago"
|
| | | |
Date: 19 Jul 2006 05:21:36
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenomenon?
|
|
| |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 09:39:39
From: Shadd
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
notbob wrote:
> On 2006-07-17, Randy G <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>
> >>> -I don't have to kick my Silvia to get it to start
>
> > "My dick is a Harley- you kick it to start."
>
> Feel free to reinforce my point. Harley hasn't made a kickstart
> motorcycle in 20 years.
>
> nb
He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Randy G. was referring to
literally kicking the bike, akin to giving a TV a good whack to get rid
of static.
Harleys certainly have a following based more on image than on
performance. You seem to be the exception that proves the rule!
SAL
|
| | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 13:38:23
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-18, Shadd <sealag@gmail.com > wrote:
> Harleys certainly have a following based more on image than on
> performance. You seem to be the exception that proves the rule!
"exception that proves the rule"?? Say what?
You seem to be of the same ilk as RG, basing your statements on
unenlightened predujices rather than fact. The fact is,
Harley-Davidson makes, and always has made, a very solid reliable
product. But, it's not surprising to hear the same ol' misconceptions
and stereotypes dragged out by the ignorant. So much easier to parrot
the dogma of others.
I'm no H-D idolater. Sure, I have a couple. But, I'm selling one and
rebuilding another (35yrs old, ferchrysakes!). I've also had a couple
Triumphs, Beezers, Yammys, Kawies, Beemers, etc, a slew of Hondas and
a smattering of more esoteric two-wheeled fauna. IOW, I know of which
I speak. H-D has always, with a minor time-out for greed, made a
quality product. The bad press by detractors has always been a sour
grapes issue. I know. I once was one.
Actually, I think it's a kinda funny. I can't think of a more HD-like
espresso machine than the Silvie. Heavy duty, well designed, and good
looking. No frills or gee-gaws, just straight to the point
functionality. Like an H-D, Silvies have more aftermarket mods and
accessories than any other machine on the market. They cost more, but
they hold their value. Failures? Are you going to tell me Sylvie's
don't break down or need service? And, like H-D's, the more you
hotrod them, the more likely they are to fail. And, like HD owners,
anyone saying anything even remotely critical of Silvies is a heretic,
a blasphemer of the worst kind. hee hee.... I love it! ;)
nb
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 19:12:05
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
A Silvia will make exactly the same cup of espresso a Gaggia will make.
They're ALL the same machine when they're put in their boxes at the factory.
A Mazda is the same as a Toyota, is the same as a Suzuki, is the same as
(?). The are far more similarities than the fanatics would want you to
believe. Open up your better home espresso machines - there's an Ulka pump,
a boiler (size & materials are insignificant), a group & portafilter. The
electrics & valves may not be interchangeable but they are the same. So how
can anyone make a blanket statement that brand X is far superior to brand Y?
It's ludicrous to put forth such an argument; at best it shows the
prejudices of the speaker, at worst the ignorance.
It depends more on the operators abilities than a machines design. The good
folks in Italy into whose homes I was invited seemed to prefer less
industrial looking machines. Plastic and color seemed preferable to big
honking masses of S/S. I saw more Baby's than Classics & more than a few old
painted Faema's. La Pavoni is very popular it seems, whether for a fashion
statement rather than brewing coffee I couldn't say.
As we used to say, "Hogs R Dogs". Lots of low end torque & easy to keep
running, just like my ol' granddad's 1934(ish) Ford tractor. Wouldn't call
either of them performance stars though. Back in my day the only person
capable of making a Hog move was Kenny Roberts & then only if the factory
was willing to put ultra BIG bucks into the team. And he had the #1 plate
what, maybe three years total? And for you rider wanna be turkeys - get
real! Building/restoring them is sissy work. Until you've laid into the ol'
turn one bank at Daytona & seen your forks flapping like they were wet
noodles you haven't really ridden a bike, you've only sat on one.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r one!
"notbob" <notbob@nothome.com > wrote in message
news:7N6dnXKgoZgCtyDZnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@comcast.com...
> On 2006-07-18, Shadd <sealag@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Harleys certainly have a following based more on image than on
>> performance. You seem to be the exception that proves the rule!
>
> "exception that proves the rule"?? Say what?
>
> You seem to be of the same ilk as RG, basing your statements on
> unenlightened predujices rather than fact. The fact is,
> Harley-Davidson makes, and always has made, a very solid reliable
> product. But, it's not surprising to hear the same ol' misconceptions
> and stereotypes dragged out by the ignorant. So much easier to parrot
> the dogma of others.
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 15:30:08
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
> A Silvia will make exactly the same cup of espresso a Gaggia will make.
> They're ALL the same machine when they're put in their boxes at the factory.
> A Mazda is the same as a Toyota, is the same as a Suzuki, is the same as
> (?). The are far more similarities than the fanatics would want you to
> believe. Open up your better home espresso machines - there's an Ulka pump,
> a boiler (size & materials are insignificant),
Size doesn't matter -- it's all in how you use it, right? ;)
Some common variances that *do* make a difference:
o the combination of boiler capacity and heater wattage
o the diameter of the portafilter
o the thermal mass of the group head
You *know* all machines aren't created equal in those things. Others,
anyone?
--
St. John
Everyone talks about apathy, but no one does anything about it.
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 14:28:51
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-18, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> turn one bank at Daytona & seen your forks flapping like they were wet
> noodles you haven't really ridden a bike, you've only sat on one.
My favorite quote from that era might have been King Kenny ...or
Romero or Nixon, etc. When asked the difference between riding a half
mile track and mile track like Daytona, the reply was, "When coming
into the turn off the straight in a half mile race, you don't back off
the throttle till you feel piss in your boot. In a mile race, you
don't back off till it's full!"
nb
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 20:06:13
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote in news:La2dnS3LF-
DuqyDZnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@comcast.com:
> On 2006-07-18, Robert Harmon <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> turn one bank at Daytona & seen your forks flapping like they were wet
>> noodles you haven't really ridden a bike, you've only sat on one.
>
> My favorite quote from that era might have been King Kenny ...or
> Romero or Nixon, etc. When asked the difference between riding a half
> mile track and mile track like Daytona, the reply was, "When coming
> into the turn off the straight in a half mile race, you don't back off
> the throttle till you feel piss in your boot. In a mile race, you
> don't back off till it's full!"
>
> nb
>
Or as Rusty Bradley probably (we'll never know) said at Daytona '71,
"Brakes, what brakes!"
Robert (a moment of silence for those who never made it) Harmon
--
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
Remove "Z" to reply via email.
|
| | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 14:49:56
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
notbob wrote:
> The fact is,
> Harley-Davidson makes, and always has made, a very solid reliable
> product.
Those of us who lived through the AMG Harleys (around the time of your
toddler-hood -- no offense) know that you meant to say "almost always."
I do admire the way the Company has gotten its act together in recent
years.
--
St. John
Harley for cruisin'
Gold Wing for getting to California
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 14:56:03
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
On 2006-07-18, St. John Smythe <sinjen@n4vu.com > wrote:
> Those of us who lived through the AMG Harleys (around the time of your
> toddler-hood -- no offense) know that you meant to say "almost always."
Toddler-hood, my aging ass! I'm a card carrying geezer. ;)
My first experience on an H-D was a new '71 Superglide. BTW, it was
AMF and I did acknowledge that sad period in their history (re:
greed). The machines didn't really change all that much, but due to
abysmal management by AMF, quality control went down the toilet.
Worse, management alienated the loyal rank and file (layoffs,
speed-ups, etc) and outright acts of sabotage began occuring, or so
the rumors went. When H-D people bought the compay back, the whole
line was redesigned from the ground up and now HD makes a product
equal, and in some cases superior, to anything on the market.
nb
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 16:07:45
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
notbob wrote:
> Toddler-hood, my aging ass! I'm a card carrying geezer. ;)
Oh. It was the bike that was 35, not you. <blush >
> My first experience on an H-D was a new '71 Superglide.
Mine was on a fairly new '50-something 74 FLH*. I found no shortcomings
at all. Was way too eaten up by craving, I suppose.
Everyone remembers their first time, eh.
--
St. John
*And I'm still 19...right up 'til the moment I look in the mirror.
|
| |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 23:17:53
From: anthony
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenomenon?
|
Barry Jarrett wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 22:17:08 GMT, "Coffee for Connoisseurs"
> <alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au> wrote:
>
> >range and moved it into department stores etc., but until then even the
> >Gaggias were in the situation that the Rancilio Silvia is today. If you
> >wanted to buy one you went to a specialist retailer who would probably also
> >sell coffee beans as well.
>
The situation here in Australia is the same in the USA -- the Silvia
may be the machine of choice (within its price range) amongst
connoisseurs, esp amongst those of us who frequent alt.coffee, but it's
not widely distributed. Here in Sydney (well, almost in Sydney -- the
Blue Mountains in fact) the big retailers such as David Jones and Myers
won't stock Silvia because, they claim, of supply hiccups. It's left to
specialist distributors/agents such as Mocopan in the Strand Arcade in
Sydney, or to specialist website and Ebay operators.
I'm about to get my hands on an ECM Botticelli, which I've been able to
pick up for the same price as the Silvia -- I think once again, only
specialist distributors/agents who really know their stuff, as compared
to department store outlets, would handle this sort of equipment which
we think as desirable, in fact totally necessary, and others think of
as totally insane.....
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2006 08:35:14
From:
Subject: Re: Is the Silvia an American phenominum?
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
>
> So, I can't help but wonder why the machine most singled out as the
> standard against which all home espresso machines must be measured
> against was conspicuously absent from the homes of the people who gave
> us espresso in the first place? Does Rancilio not market their consumer
> products in their own country? Or maybe they realize they can get a
> higher ROI by selling them to Americans who, after all , are the most
> gullible consumers in the world?
>
> What is the reason for the invisibility of the Silvia in Italy?
> --
> Robert (not dissin' Miss Silvia) Harmon
I think the Silvia actually started out as a bonus incentive assembled
from commercial grade spare parts to Rancilio salesmen. I believe it
was a request to Rancilio to offer the machine for retail sale that got
it selling in North America.
I've started with a Silvia and she's a tank. Very strong, reliable and
dependable. One thing I found and it's a common criticism of the
Silvia is that she's hard to use stock. The pump pressure is not
adjustable and is usually set too high, the temp band in the boiler is
from about 230F at the top to about 180F at the bottom so it's really
hard to hit good extractions temps with her unless you have some way of
knowing or controlling the temp. She's a single boiler that has to
switch from espresso to steaming so she's slow on making back to back
milk based drinks. She's very finicky about technique and you've got
to be a fair barista to get a good shot from her.
However, for the price I would have to agree there's no better made,
more capable machine in her catagory. Just looking at her resale value
confirms she's a sought after, highly regarded, quality machine.
I've recently upgraded to a plumbed in rotary pump e61 and with the
water temp control, pump pressure control and the forgiving preinfusion
of the e61 group my shots are consistently better than with a Silvia
but at 1/2 the price of a good e61 HX or double boiler the quality of
the Silvia's shots are a bargain.
|
|
