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Date: 01 Aug 2006 16:22:36
From: Cordo
Subject: L.A. water hardness?
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Getting ready to move to Bel Air in a month. I'm trying to figure out
whether to bring along my Giotto or my Gaggia at first. Can anyone tell me
what the water hardness is like in L.A.? If it's really hard, I might start
with my Gaggia rather than gumming up my Giotto before I figure out where to
get R.O. water and all that.
C
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 00:00:16
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:22:36 -0700, "Cordo"
<cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote:
>Getting ready to move to Bel Air in a month. I'm trying to figure out
>whether to bring along my Giotto or my Gaggia at first. Can anyone tell me
>what the water hardness is like in L.A.? If it's really hard, I might start
>with my Gaggia rather than gumming up my Giotto before I figure out where to
>get R.O. water and all that.
>
>C
>
LA uses chloramines to disinfect the water. As the water has to go a
very long way from the treatment plant to the final destinations, it
is overdosed so there is still some protection at the end.
A few years back, right after LA DWP switched to chloramines, we
started having brass Champion sprinkler valves start to leak every few
months. These valves had been reliable with half decade rebuilds for
more than 20 years. After replacing more than 25 valves, I contacted
Champion. One of their engineers came out and showed me where the
water had COMPLETELY eaten through the actuators. Since replacing the
brass valves with glass filled nylon, we've had zero failures in over
2 years.
I don't even like to wash in the stuff!
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 01:28:38
From: Mud Pup
Subject: OT: L.A. water hardness?
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I- >Ian wrote:
>
> LA uses chloramines to disinfect the water. As the water has to go a
> very long way from the treatment plant to the final destinations, it
> is overdosed so there is still some protection at the end.
>
> A few years back, right after LA DWP switched to chloramines, we
> started having brass Champion sprinkler valves start to leak every few
> months. These valves had been reliable with half decade rebuilds for
> more than 20 years. After replacing more than 25 valves, I contacted
> Champion. One of their engineers came out and showed me where the
> water had COMPLETELY eaten through the actuators. Since replacing the
> brass valves with glass filled nylon, we've had zero failures in over
> 2 years.
>
> I don't even like to wash in the stuff!
I was about ready to chuck my Champions and replace
with Fairways until you posted. Where can I get these
valve replacements ? Any old nursery, or only direct
from Champion ?
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 01:35:47
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: OT: L.A. water hardness?
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On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 01:28:38 GMT, Mud Pup
<mudpup@retriever.dyndns.org > wrote:
>I->Ian wrote:
>>
>> LA uses chloramines to disinfect the water. As the water has to go a
>> very long way from the treatment plant to the final destinations, it
>> is overdosed so there is still some protection at the end.
>>
>> A few years back, right after LA DWP switched to chloramines, we
>> started having brass Champion sprinkler valves start to leak every few
>> months. These valves had been reliable with half decade rebuilds for
>> more than 20 years. After replacing more than 25 valves, I contacted
>> Champion. One of their engineers came out and showed me where the
>> water had COMPLETELY eaten through the actuators. Since replacing the
>> brass valves with glass filled nylon, we've had zero failures in over
>> 2 years.
>>
>> I don't even like to wash in the stuff!
>
>I was about ready to chuck my Champions and replace
>with Fairways until you posted. Where can I get these
>valve replacements ? Any old nursery, or only direct
>from Champion ?
I think Home Depot sells them, not sure who else.
http://www.championirrigation.com/HTML_Pages/Cat_CL.html
Champion was very helpful, so if you have any difficulty locating what
you need, give them a bell or shoot them an email.
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Date: 01 Aug 2006 23:46:24
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:22:36 -0700, "Cordo"
<cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote:
>Getting ready to move to Bel Air in a month. I'm trying to figure out
>whether to bring along my Giotto or my Gaggia at first. Can anyone tell me
>what the water hardness is like in L.A.? If it's really hard, I might start
>with my Gaggia rather than gumming up my Giotto before I figure out where to
>get R.O. water and all that.
>
>C
There is no single "L.A. Water." As in most big cities, the DWP
provides a variety of blends. Our water comes from wells, the L.A.
Aqueduct (Owens Valley and other parts north, bless 'em) and the
Colorado River. Our tap water in Sherman Oaks is usually around 175
ppm TDS. I blend it with bottled water from a local vendor (75-85 ppm)
to get around 125 ppm for my espresso machine.
One of those cheapie TDS meters is a good investment.
Congrats on the move-up from Pico-Robertson to Bel Air.
Marshall
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 06:08:15
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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I- >Ian wrote:
>
> LA uses chloramines to disinfect the water. As the water has to go a
> very long way from the treatment plant to the final destinations, it
> is overdosed so there is still some protection at the end.
>
> A few years back, right after LA DWP switched to chloramines, we
> started having brass Champion sprinkler valves start to leak every few
> months. These valves had been reliable with half decade rebuilds for
> more than 20 years. After replacing more than 25 valves, I contacted
> Champion. One of their engineers came out and showed me where the
> water had COMPLETELY eaten through the actuators. Since replacing the
> brass valves with glass filled nylon, we've had zero failures in over
> 2 years.
>
> I don't even like to wash in the stuff!
Before the switch from chlorine to chloramines, LA water tasted and
smelled like a swimming pool. The LA DWP switched after surveys
showing 2/3 of L.A residents wouldn't drink the stuff.
As lawn sprinkler heads use many times as much water as a home
espresso machine, it would be wrong to assume the chloramines would
corrode them at the same rate. My brass boiler and brewhead have shown
no visible corrosion at all in the 3+ years I've used them in L.A.
(and the boiler has been opened up and inspected twice in that time,
most recently just a few months ago).
Marshall
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 19:23:27
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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<snip >
>
>Before the switch from chlorine to chloramines, LA water tasted and
>smelled like a swimming pool. The LA DWP switched after surveys
>showing 2/3 of L.A residents wouldn't drink the stuff.
>
Sorry, Marshall, but the switch to chloramines had nothing to do with
taste. Chloramines are more stable, allowing more disinfectant to get
to the end of the line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramine
http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp005155.pdf
http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp005154.pdf
>As lawn sprinkler heads use many times as much water as a home
>espresso machine, it would be wrong to assume the chloramines would
>corrode them at the same rate. My brass boiler and brewhead have shown
>no visible corrosion at all in the 3+ years I've used them in L.A.
>(and the boiler has been opened up and inspected twice in that time,
>most recently just a few months ago).
>
>Marshall
The brass in espresso machines is vastly different than that in
sprinkler VALVES. Whether it is impervious to corrosion from the water
is unknown.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze
On very good authority from inside the LA DWP, the water quality
varies considerably over the distribution area as the water comes from
many sources. Some is nearly all well water, some is nearly all
reservoir, some is nearly all from the adqueducts and some is a
combination in varying degrees of all three and the ratios can change
at any time. The myriad pipe types in the distribution system add to
the vagaries at the faucet.
Our water in the west SF Valley smells strontly of chlorine, an order
of magnitude stronger than before the switch. Some days, I can barely
tolerate taking a shower, the odor is so objectionable.
I'd rather drink the water in my pool, which has almost no chlorine
odor, than what comes out of the tap. I wouldn't make espresso with
either!
Bottom line, LA water quality is HUGELY variable and what holds true
in one area will not in another.
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 20:16:11
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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That's not good news. I'll be renting and I don't have any portable reverse
osmosis thingy.
Do you find that a charcoal filter (Britta etc.) removes the chlorine taste?
I'm going to miss my water softener and filter system in Vegas.
C
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 02:17:20
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:16:11 GMT, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroxxxremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:
>That's not good news. I'll be renting and I don't have any portable reverse
>osmosis thingy.
>
>Do you find that a charcoal filter (Britta etc.) removes the chlorine taste?
>I'm going to miss my water softener and filter system in Vegas.
>
>C
For some reason Ian's posts are not showing up on my newsreader, so I
mostly have to infer what he is saying from your responses. As I said
in my first response, "there is no single 'L.A. water.'" Chlorine is
being phased out at different times across the L.A. system. We
(thankfully) lost ours about 2 years ago. You will be living about a
mile from my home. I think our largest source is the Stone Canyon
Reservoir. There is no chlorine smell in the water here. It's fine for
drinking and brewing espresso, especially if mixed with a lower TDS
water.
LA DWP consumer surveys had told them for years that customers hated
the taste and smell of their water.
https://www.nsf.org/regulatory/conferences/docs/Backes.pdf
It was a major factor in the switch to chloramines.
BTW, 100% RO water does a terrible disservice to coffee and tea,
unless minerals are added back in. It leaves behind a large part of
the best flavors. You can easily taste the difference in coffee and
see AND taste it in tea. My wife is a water treatment chemist and tea
fanatic.
Marshall
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 21:40:55
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:16:11 GMT, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroxxxremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:
>That's not good news. I'll be renting and I don't have any portable reverse
>osmosis thingy.
>
>Do you find that a charcoal filter (Britta etc.) removes the chlorine taste?
>I'm going to miss my water softener and filter system in Vegas.
>
>C
>
Depending on where you are, you may have better water. My friend in
Sherman Oaks south of Ventura has much better tasting water than we
do.
Never tried any filter devices.
At one point I was considering putting in an RO system, but moved
overseas for a couple years, remodelled the kitchen on return and it
got lost is the shuffle.
We've used Arrowhead bottled spring water for many years. It's not the
best water on the planet and over the last decade it has become
somewhat variable. I'd welcome other suggestions.
Supreme Bean has a very trick RO water purification and TDS
restoration system. Perhaps you could buy water as well as beans ;-)
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 22:30:55
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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> At one point I was considering putting in an RO system, but moved
> overseas for a couple years, remodelled the kitchen on return and it
> got lost is the shuffle.
For what it's worth, I get pretty annoyed with how slowly RO water comes out
of the kind of system that usually goes next to a faucet. It would take
some time to fill a large reservoir.
>
> We've used Arrowhead bottled spring water for many years. It's not the
> best water on the planet and over the last decade it has become
> somewhat variable. I'd welcome other suggestions.
Since I had a water softener installed on the house here in Vegas, and
mounted a PUR filter on the faucet, I'm delighted with my water here.
Before, it was all minerals and chlorine. I also prefer the house water in
general, for showering, my skin, the laundry, etc.
>
> Supreme Bean has a very trick RO water purification and TDS
> restoration system. Perhaps you could buy water as well as beans ;-)
I just don't want to get into the whole buying water thing. I'm not going
to be in a convenient place. My plan right now is to live on campus in Bel
Air on Mulholland Drive (not far from Skirball). When I went to visit, I
was low on gas, and I drove forever, basically back to West L.A., before
finding a single commercial anything. Obviously them folks on Mulholland
Drive like their area free of anything but residences.
C
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 02:27:09
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 22:30:55 GMT, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroxxxremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:
>I just don't want to get into the whole buying water thing. I'm not going
>to be in a convenient place. My plan right now is to live on campus in Bel
>Air on Mulholland Drive (not far from Skirball). When I went to visit, I
>was low on gas, and I drove forever, basically back to West L.A., before
>finding a single commercial anything. Obviously them folks on Mulholland
>Drive like their area free of anything but residences.
>
>C
>
Oh, yeah. If you avoid rush hour, you'll be 10 min. from The Coffee
Roaster, 15 min. from Caffe Luxxe and 20 min. from Supreme Bean. Not
bad!
Marshall
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 10:18:03
From: Cordovero
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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> Oh, yeah. If you avoid rush hour, you'll be 10 min. from The Coffee
> Roaster, 15 min. from Caffe Luxxe and 20 min. from Supreme Bean. Not
> bad!
I'm pretty psyched about this! I've mostly been roasting my own on an
I-Roast, and also ordering Vivace. I'd love to find a place near me in L.A.
that is exciting. I don't view I-Roasting as optimal.
C
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 16:42:51
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:18:03 GMT, "Cordovero"
<cordoveroxxxremovexxx@yahooxxx.com > wrote:
>
>> Oh, yeah. If you avoid rush hour, you'll be 10 min. from The Coffee
>> Roaster, 15 min. from Caffe Luxxe and 20 min. from Supreme Bean. Not
>> bad!
>
>I'm pretty psyched about this! I've mostly been roasting my own on an
>I-Roast, and also ordering Vivace. I'd love to find a place near me in L.A.
>that is exciting. I don't view I-Roasting as optimal.
>
>C
>
Three localish LA roasters :
- Woodland Hills Coffee Roasting, just a little bit dark for me. About
15 miles from Skirball
- Rocky Roaster, Canoga Park is very good, but don't recommend the
espresso blend. Too much rubber for me. About 15 miles from Skirball.
- Supreme Bean, excellent. About 7 miles.
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 07:07:02
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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<snip >
>Oh, yeah. If you avoid rush hour, you'll be 10 min. from The Coffee
>Roaster, 15 min. from Caffe Luxxe and 20 min. from Supreme Bean. Not
>bad!
>
>Marshall
Marshall neglected to mention that to avoid rush hour in LA
necssitates getting on the freeway Sundays between 02:50 and 03:13
We have maxim here in SmellLA :
You'll either be 15 minutes early or 45 minutes late, regardless of
when you set off for your appointment.
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 14:51:45
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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In <fK7Ag.8901$157.558@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net >, on Wed, 02 Aug
2006 20:16:11 GMT, Cordovero wrote:
> That's not good news. I'll be renting and I don't have any portable reverse
> osmosis thingy.
All RO thingies are portable... aren't they?
http://twoloonscoffee.com/cleanwater/
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Date: 03 Aug 2006 17:30:08
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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In article <slrned4hei.101h.steve@wizard.dyndns.org >,
Steve Ackman <steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com > wrote:
> In <fK7Ag.8901$157.558@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, on Wed, 02 Aug
> 2006 20:16:11 GMT, Cordovero wrote:
> > That's not good news. I'll be renting and I don't have any portable
> > reverse
> > osmosis thingy.
>
> All RO thingies are portable... aren't they?
>
> http://twoloonscoffee.com/cleanwater/
Not generally, no. All kinds of portable filter thingys, but RO
requires time (and pressure?) and are somewhat fragile so tend to
be built in to the end of multistage, fixed filters.
--
M for N in address to mail reply
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 00:43:45
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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In <NealReid-30EC07.17300803082006@news.isp.giganews.com >, on Thu, 03 Aug
2006 17:30:08 -0400, Neal Reid wrote:
> Steve Ackman <steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com> wrote:
>
>> In <fK7Ag.8901$157.558@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, on Wed, 02 Aug
>> 2006 20:16:11 GMT, Cordovero wrote:
>> > That's not good news. I'll be renting and I don't have any portable
>> > reverse osmosis thingy.
>>
>> All RO thingies are portable... aren't they?
>>
>> http://twoloonscoffee.com/cleanwater/
>
> Not generally, no. All kinds of portable filter thingys, but RO
> requires time (and pressure?) and are somewhat fragile so tend to
> be built in to the end of multistage, fixed filters.
Yeah, yeah... I'm often too subtle. Here's the
rephrase:
I have installed an RO thingy (pictured on the
aforementioned page) temporarily in a rental place,
moved it to a permanent installation in another place,
then moved it again to another temporary rental, and
it's sitting on a shelf now waiting for me to decide
the best way to plumb it in permanently here.
As with the 1000+ lb. roaster that's now in its 5th
location (though not yet "permanently" installed),
pretty much everything is portable except the view.
<insert smile or wink or something impish here if you
didn't infer it already >
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Date: 04 Aug 2006 17:34:36
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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In article <slrned5k4h.101h.steve@wizard.dyndns.org >,
Steve Ackman <steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com > wrote:
> Yeah, yeah... I'm often too subtle. Here's the
> rephrase:
...
> pretty much everything is portable except the view.
>
> <insert smile or wink or something impish here if you
> didn't infer it already>
Some days, one shouldn't post - like after consecutive 13 hour
days...
So has the long ago discussed move happened? No longer near the 4
corners in N.M.?
--
M for N in address to mail reply
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 09:33:48
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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In <NealReid-A22CA6.17343504082006@news.isp.giganews.com >, on Fri, 04 Aug
2006 17:34:36 -0400, Neal Reid wrote:
> So has the long ago discussed move happened? No longer near the 4
> corners in N.M.?
Right. We left the view of the Shiprock out the
living room window end of May.
The water here leaves a trace of iron, but doesn't
seem otherwise very hard. I haven't found my TDS
meter yet so I don't even know how badly I need the RO
here, but the coffee tastes good, and hopefully I'm not
getting a lot of buildup as I do all the other stuff
that takes precedence around this 1900 New Englander.
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Date: 02 Aug 2006 15:36:19
From: daveb
Subject: Re: L.A. water hardness?
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BEL AIR! WHOA!
get a Brita pitcher. It helped me a lot when I lived in LA
Dave
Saeco / Gaggia service SE
Cordo wrote:
> Getting ready to move to Bel Air in a month. I'm trying to figure out
> whether to bring along my Giotto or my Gaggia at first. Can anyone tell me
> what the water hardness is like in L.A.? If it's really hard, I might start
> with my Gaggia rather than gumming up my Giotto before I figure out where to
> get R.O. water and all that.
>
> C
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