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Main
Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53
From: bernie digman
Subject: My new neighbors
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Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased a lot down the street from
the store and will begin building in short time. This will be the third in a town of 80,000. With
the lowest demographics of all but Mississippi. We now have a good drive-through and a large enough
menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on excellent coffee. Excellent coffee will always
lose out to convienience in America. I'm thinking of adding a second window and a fast-order board
in the lane to speed things up as much as possible. I figure if I match the speed of a national
chain and exceed their quality I'll not lose too much ground. I sure as heck don't kid myself that
I'll be competing on a level field, but by moving slightly to a different field we should be doing
okay. I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the taste
of the American public.
Bernie
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 12:02:59
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com >
wrote:
>
>Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. ..
There's a bright side. Some good cafes report increased business when
the Starbies moves in. They bring extra coffee drinkers to the corner;
and you get more than your share because your product is better.
There's enough of them in Chicago now that one can see that they are
not nearly as standardized as McDs or other large franchise
operations. Quite a few are semi-abondoned, dispirited, and decrepit,
with lazy staff and lousy looking offerings. So if you take the hit in
the first few months, and the manager there is not experienced and
energetic, you'll come out ahead.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 09:48:47
From: AG
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
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In article <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com >, bernie digman
<bdigman@zianet.com > wrote:
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased
a lot down the street from the store and will begin building in short
time.
sic transit gloria mundi. I've been following your posts here for a while
and I'm sorry to hear that.
>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
underestimating the taste of the American public.
I can't agree with you more but I also can't see how you could directly
compete especially considering that their deeper pockets can tolerate a
longer period of loss until they overcome the local competition. I think
the notion of "moving slightly to a different field" is porbably the key
together with a concentrated effort at building a business image which
stresses the differentiation between your establishment and *$$. I would
consider looking into everything from logos in contrasting trademark
colors to clearly different takeout packaging; I'd want my customers
taking out containers that are not mistaken for either generic or the
competition.
Best of luck!
AG
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 13:00:49
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
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I don't know what you mean by a longer period of loss - it's not like they
compete on price. If Starbucks has chosen a location, it means that they've
done the studies and the traffic is there to support it (and to support you
too), so the fact that they're opening is actually a sign that you have a
good location.
Most small business owners are their own worst enemies. Starbucks will not
put you out of business - only you can do that. You are starting with a 100
point location and you lose points for every mistake you make. Your
waitstaff is chatting with each other instead of serving customers - lose a
point. Your lines move to slowly - lose another. Your premises are not
spotlessly clean - lose another. You are out of stock on your customer's
favorite pastry - lose another. The coffee is not at the right serving
temp - lose another. Lose enough points and you'll go broke.
"AG" <dot@dot.dot > wrote in message
news:dot-1207060948470001@192.168.1.60...
> In article <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com>, bernie digman
> <bdigman@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased
> a lot down the street from the store and will begin building in short
> time.
>
> sic transit gloria mundi. I've been following your posts here for a while
> and I'm sorry to hear that.
>
>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
> underestimating the taste of the American public.
>
> I can't agree with you more but I also can't see how you could directly
> compete especially considering that their deeper pockets can tolerate a
> longer period of loss until they overcome the local competition. I think
> the notion of "moving slightly to a different field" is porbably the key
> together with a concentrated effort at building a business image which
> stresses the differentiation between your establishment and *$$. I would
> consider looking into everything from logos in contrasting trademark
> colors to clearly different takeout packaging; I'd want my customers
> taking out containers that are not mistaken for either generic or the
> competition.
>
> Best of luck!
>
> AG
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 11:10:55
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
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> Most small business owners are their own worst enemies. Starbucks will not
> put you out of business - only you can do that. You are starting with a
> 100 point location and you lose points for every mistake you make. Your
> waitstaff is chatting with each other instead of serving customers - lose
> a point. Your lines move to slowly - lose another. Your premises are not
> spotlessly clean - lose another. You are out of stock on your customer's
> favorite pastry - lose another. The coffee is not at the right serving
> temp - lose another. Lose enough points and you'll go broke.
Wow, this is a great description of why I ended up at Starbucks after two
weeks with my machines on the fritz and my going to every independent cafe I
could find. (And actually switching to Starbucks when I worked at an office
in San Francisco for a year, with a Bucks and two independent cafes on the
block.)
One serious addition: Your employees forget to refill the milks, sugars,
and stirrers dispensers. (I hate being in a rush and having to walk up to
the counter with an empty jug and trying to get busy workers to get me some
milk. Why do they always look at me like I'm some weirdo who wants milk in
their coffee? A few days ago a worker -- at a Starbucks actually-- looked
at me and said, "But the half and half is full." She didn't, by the way,
actually take the milk dispenser from me. She just kept looking at me, like
it was my turn to force the issue by making her take the empty container.)
And one not so serious addition: Just add: "Get solicited for One World
internet service, lose another."
:)
C
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:10:38
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com >
wrote:
>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the taste
>of the American public.
>Bernie
Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
hope for you, Bernie.
Marshall
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because Americans
have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder Bread
in favor of baguettes.
There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their atmosphere is
nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause people
to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it look like
*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional, polished
operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist. Imagine
that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
which place would you stop at?
"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>underestimating the taste
>>of the American public.
>>Bernie
>
> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
> hope for you, Bernie.
>
> Marshall
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 15:52:11
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
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You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
is a mandate today.
jim
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because Americans
>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder Bread
>in favor of baguettes.
>
>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their atmosphere is
>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause people
>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it look like
>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional, polished
>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist. Imagine
>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
>which place would you stop at?
>
>
>
>
>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>underestimating the taste
>>>of the American public.
>>>Bernie
>>
>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>
>> Marshall
>
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative is
to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to goodness,
it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:i1vab2tdjkpjjefmcrabrstir783tu4m6n@4ax.com...
>
> You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
> You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
> is a mandate today.
>
>
> jim
>
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because
>>Americans
>>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder
>>Bread
>>in favor of baguettes.
>>
>>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their atmosphere
>>is
>>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause
>>people
>>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it look
>>like
>>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional, polished
>>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist.
>>Imagine
>>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
>>which place would you stop at?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>>underestimating the taste
>>>>of the American public.
>>>>Bernie
>>>
>>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
>>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>>
>>> Marshall
>>
>
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 01:10:00
From: AZ Nomad
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39 -0400, Jack Denver <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative is
>to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
Newsflash: there's more than one kind of coffee. Believe it or not,
you can sell coffee that is different than starbucks.
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 23:47:29
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Unfortunately, foolishly spoken, Jack. Their game is not selling
coffee and if you understood the basics of Starbucks, you would know
that. They ceased being a coffee company years ago. Go at them on that
basis and you will be shooting blanks.
Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
movie business as well via placement and branding.
They are a beverage, food, entertainment company at the least.
Is short - you cannot play their game, it is simply too big for a
local coffee merchant.
You have to niche them locally. It is being done well in more and more
places.
jim
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative is
>to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
>beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to goodness,
>it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
>you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>
>
>
>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:i1vab2tdjkpjjefmcrabrstir783tu4m6n@4ax.com...
>>
>> You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
>> You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
>> is a mandate today.
>>
>>
>> jim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because
>>>Americans
>>>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder
>>>Bread
>>>in favor of baguettes.
>>>
>>>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>>>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their atmosphere
>>>is
>>>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>>>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause
>>>people
>>>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it look
>>>like
>>>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional, polished
>>>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist.
>>>Imagine
>>>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
>>>which place would you stop at?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>>>underestimating the taste
>>>>>of the American public.
>>>>>Bernie
>>>>
>>>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
>>>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>>>
>>>> Marshall
>>>
>>
>
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 12:05:51
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:47:29 -0700, ensenadajim
<ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
>center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
>Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
>movie business as well via placement and branding.
A twenty year old Sade track, a few uncomfortable seats, and a line of
distracted suits spouting "skinny, venti thingamajig" does not make
Starbuicks a "third place," " 21st century public space," or any other
bit of pop-socilolgy thier marketing dreams up anywhere except in the
fantasies of Howard Schultz.
Their appeal is the same as every other chain's: standardized
mediocrity, the delivery of a stress-free, surprise-free, perfectly
in-control experience for the terminally disquieted. Mostly, they
don't even do a good job at that.
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 13:17:58
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:05:51 -0500, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 23:47:29 -0700, ensenadajim
><ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
>>center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
>>Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
>>movie business as well via placement and branding.
>
>A twenty year old Sade track, a few uncomfortable seats, and a line of
>distracted suits spouting "skinny, venti thingamajig" does not make
>Starbuicks a "third place," " 21st century public space," or any other
>bit of pop-socilolgy thier marketing dreams up anywhere except in the
>fantasies of Howard Schultz.
>
>Their appeal is the same as every other chain's: standardized
>mediocrity, the delivery of a stress-free, surprise-free, perfectly
>in-control experience for the terminally disquieted. Mostly, they
>don't even do a good job at that.
WHOOSH! Right past you and you without a clue.
jim
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 15:59:25
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:17:58 -0700, ensenadajim
<ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote:
>WHOOSH! Right past you and you without a clue.
Not sure what you mean by that. My gut reaction when going into a
Starbucks is that it's a mama's teat for the stressd out with just
enough spray-on cool to disguise it.
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 19:11:08
From: notbob
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On 2006-07-13, jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:
> enough spray-on cool to disguise it.
This is about the 3rd post alluding to "cool" in relation to
Starbucks. How, when and who has ever perceived Starbucks as being
cool? If there actually are such deluded people out there, just
exactly *what* about Starbucks is considered cool? I can think of a
lot of reasons for Starbucks success, but an improved public image for
simply being a customer just does not compute, any more than being a
Wendy's or McDonald's customer. Or do Starby's have a secret wink or
make-up/hairdo watermark I'm not privy to?
nb
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:44:52
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 19:11:08 -0500, notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote:
>On 2006-07-13, jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>> enough spray-on cool to disguise it.
>
>This is about the 3rd post alluding to "cool" in relation to
>Starbucks. How, when and who has ever perceived Starbucks as being
>cool? If there actually are such deluded people out there, just
>exactly *what* about Starbucks is considered cool? I can think of a
>lot of reasons for Starbucks success, but an improved public image for
>simply being a customer just does not compute, any more than being a
>Wendy's or McDonald's customer. Or do Starby's have a secret wink or
>make-up/hairdo watermark I'm not privy to?
>
>nb
I thought that was what I said, "a mama's teat with spray-on cool."
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 17:33:01
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"notbob" <notbob@nothome.com > wrote in message
news:ONadnZUi_PCBfCvZnZ2dnUVZ_rSdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> On 2006-07-13, jim schulman <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>> enough spray-on cool to disguise it.
>
> This is about the 3rd post alluding to "cool" in relation to
> Starbucks. How, when and who has ever perceived Starbucks as being
> cool? If there actually are such deluded people out there, just
> exactly *what* about Starbucks is considered cool?
I think they're pretty cool, esp. compared to Dunkin' Donuts, Joe's
Microwave-your-Bagel Cafe, etc. There's usually some free local newsmag
around, comfy seats, wooden tables, Bob Dylan or Lucinda Williams playing,
some (substandard) espresso machines for sale along with some stainless
steel vacuum thermos bottles.
What are you expecting, the Fonz?
C
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Date: 15 Jul 2006 05:05:20
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 19:11:08 -0500, notbob <notbob@nothome.com > wrote:
>Starbucks. How, when and who has ever perceived Starbucks as being
>cool? If there actually are such deluded people out there, just
>exactly *what* about Starbucks is considered cool?
apparently, there are loads of such deluded people.
--barry "they hang out with the jeep people" ;)
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Date: 15 Jul 2006 06:02:09
From:
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 05:05:20 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 19:11:08 -0500, notbob <notbob@nothome.com>
wrote:
>
> >Starbucks. How, when and who has ever perceived Starbucks as being
> >cool? If there actually are such deluded people out there, just
> >exactly *what* about Starbucks is considered cool?
>
>apparently, there are loads of such deluded people.
>
>
>--barry "they hang out with the jeep people" ;)
I'm a Jeep person:)--can't get home without 4wd.
Had the first Jeep before Starbucks:) & only on the second one.
Hope all is perfect with all Jarretts.
aloha,
Cea
--smithfarms.com
farmers of pure kona
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 10:05:37
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers. This is
doubly so in a relatively small town where there are not millions of
customers. So Bernie has to make it so that Ms. Average Customer will want
to buy her latte at his shop - it has to be "cooler" to be seen with a
Bernie's cup than with a *$ cup.
Marketers love to play market segmentation games - the problem is that no
one bother to tell consumers what segment they "belong" to, so consumers
foolishly think that the whole universe of choices is open to them. If you
don't watch out, the customers in "your" niche may mistakenly wander into an
establishment that "belongs" to another niche and like it better there.
Maybe Bernie could give out color coded badges and all the shops in town
could color code their signs, so "green" customers would only go into
"green" shops, "blue" customers into "blue" shops, etc. Short of that, he
has to do everything he can to make his shop appealing to a broad spectrum
(or at least that spectrum of people who are willing to spend $3 on a cup of
coffee). Most people like the same things - they like a clean shop, pleasant
and prompt service, nice atmosphere, etc. - these are universals. Oh, and
they like the coffee to taste good too. It doesn't have to taste GREAT in
the alt.coffee hint of blueberries and grapefruit sense, but it has to be
appealing to their palate (even if this means tons of caramel syrup - the
American palate was raised on apple juice and Coca Cola). A lot of small
business owners get so caught up in finding their niche and holding bongo
drum night, poetry reading night, etc. that they forget the basics, so that
they end up with the bongo drum lovers but not with everyone else.
"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:erqbb2d7hi41p4i80ujj88hqoqopblini2@4ax.com...
>
> Unfortunately, foolishly spoken, Jack. Their game is not selling
> coffee and if you understood the basics of Starbucks, you would know
> that. They ceased being a coffee company years ago. Go at them on that
> basis and you will be shooting blanks.
>
> Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
> center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
> Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
> movie business as well via placement and branding.
>
> They are a beverage, food, entertainment company at the least.
>
> Is short - you cannot play their game, it is simply too big for a
> local coffee merchant.
>
> You have to niche them locally. It is being done well in more and more
> places.
>
>
> jim
>
>
>
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative
>>is
>>to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
>>beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to
>>goodness,
>>it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
>>you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:i1vab2tdjkpjjefmcrabrstir783tu4m6n@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
>>> You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
>>> is a mandate today.
>>>
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because
>>>>Americans
>>>>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder
>>>>Bread
>>>>in favor of baguettes.
>>>>
>>>>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>>>>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their atmosphere
>>>>is
>>>>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>>>>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause
>>>>people
>>>>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it look
>>>>like
>>>>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional,
>>>>polished
>>>>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist.
>>>>Imagine
>>>>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
>>>>which place would you stop at?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>>>>underestimating the taste
>>>>>>of the American public.
>>>>>>Bernie
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
>>>>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marshall
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 23:18:45
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:05:37 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
>
>Marketers love to play market segmentation games - the problem is that no
>one bother to tell consumers what segment they "belong" to, so consumers
>foolishly think that the whole universe of choices is open to them.
This is more correct than the idea that cafes have different "niches."
But I don't think it's quite accurate. When two cafes are side by
side, there are basically three possibilities: customers will
consistently prefer one or the other, or they'll be inconsistent,
going wherever the line is shortest, or whatever else strikes their
fancy at the moment.
There's a whoile host of techniques for attracting the random set; but
most involve having prominent signs in the windows, which doesn't play
with potential regulars. The "blue plate special" signs, at least in
Chicago, seem to signal the very lowest end of the quality scale.
I don't think there's a lot of play (as yet) in the price versus
quality dimension in cafes. A cafe, by its very nature is assumed to
charge more than a fast food place and serve better coffee.
The cafes that thought they were solidly local, and billed themselves
of attracting an "everyone knows everyone" pub crowd, got wiped out by
Starbiucks, at least in Chicago, where cafes were deluding themselves
thinking they were pubs (there's a couple of old style German
Konditoreis in Lincold park that hold out)
In Chicago, people who prefer the Intelligentisias, Metropolis, the
few Peets, and the cafes with on premise roasters, do so because they
believce the coffee is better. They may not be experts; and the
owners, whom I've all asked, may not do rigororous market research.
But they succeed by emphasizing the coffee and the barista skills. The
Lavazza store in the loop, which is a hop away from the starbies and
intelligentsia also seems to be making it (2nd behind Intelly) by
emphasising that they are the "real" thing.
As a rule, Starbucks beats them in expensive decor and what I've
called spray-on cool (the muzak-style jazz and other fake culture
touches); and in general, cleanliness is a wash (slovenly or dirty
doesn't play anywhere in the States, and less everywhere else).
So to generalize, even something as specialized as a cafe competes
along several dimensions. It's not a question of finding a niche; but
it is a question of beating them at something enough customers think
is important.
Better quality coffee can do this. However, I think there has to be
some sort of objective proof for non-experts. Intelly and Metropolis
get regular nods in the local press as being the best. In-store
roasting also seems to constitute credible evidence of having a
better coffee. Danny uses lever machines, Italian coffee, and
traditional presentation; again this is great visual evidence, even
for those who aren't experts, that the coffee is going to be better
than the local Costas or Neros.
In other words, Bernie, make sure not just that your coffee is done
better, but that it's seen to be done better.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 05:01:13
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 23:18:45 -0500, jim schulman
<jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote:
>So to generalize, even something as specialized as a cafe competes
>along several dimensions. It's not a question of finding a niche; but
>it is a question of beating them at something enough customers think
>is important.
>
aka, "i don't have to outrun the tiger, i just have to outrun you."
--barry "lacing up the shoes"
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 04:26:56
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 11:05:48
From: Marcia
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 04:26:56 GMT, ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D.
Ross) wrote:
Snip
> Yesterday I was in a town in western South Dakota that
>proclaimed itself the best coffeeshop in the world - despite a nice
>Laurentis/Rancilio machine, it was a close contestant for the *worst*
>coffeeshop I've ever visited [and I've been in some doozies].)
>
>- David R.
I just moved from western SD.. I think I know of which you speak..
Which town was it in, because there are a few really bad places out
that way, and I dont remember which had the sign, though I do remember
seeing it.
BTW..I'm a new poster, and long time coffee addict. Nice to be here,
amongst my own kind...hehehe
Marcia
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2006 06:30:40
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Marcia <moonlitesonata2@hotmail.com > wrote:
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 16:32:48
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:l-GdnaEJcbCvzivZnZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
<snip/ >
> A lot of small
> business owners get so caught up in finding their niche and holding bongo
> drum night, poetry reading night, etc. that they forget the basics, so
that
> they end up with the bongo drum lovers but not with everyone else.
>
And for some that works quite well. As I recall form more than a decade ago
the "E bar" in Pasadena did quite a good trade based on just that. It
certainly wasn't the quality of their coffee.
It seems they have survived http://theespressobar.org although I don't
think the website is what is driving the business ;)
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 13:16:57
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
No word games are being played, Jack. It IS about marketing,
segmentation and other words I'll not use to keep your confusion
factor in check. You obviously have little more than a plebian
understanding of segmentation and what can and cannot be done with it.
Lord help you when you have to deal with psychographics - but that is
where you need to go, not demographic-style segmentation.
jim
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:05:37 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers. This is
>doubly so in a relatively small town where there are not millions of
>customers. So Bernie has to make it so that Ms. Average Customer will want
>to buy her latte at his shop - it has to be "cooler" to be seen with a
>Bernie's cup than with a *$ cup.
>
>Marketers love to play market segmentation games - the problem is that no
>one bother to tell consumers what segment they "belong" to, so consumers
>foolishly think that the whole universe of choices is open to them. If you
>don't watch out, the customers in "your" niche may mistakenly wander into an
>establishment that "belongs" to another niche and like it better there.
>Maybe Bernie could give out color coded badges and all the shops in town
>could color code their signs, so "green" customers would only go into
>"green" shops, "blue" customers into "blue" shops, etc. Short of that, he
>has to do everything he can to make his shop appealing to a broad spectrum
>(or at least that spectrum of people who are willing to spend $3 on a cup of
>coffee). Most people like the same things - they like a clean shop, pleasant
>and prompt service, nice atmosphere, etc. - these are universals. Oh, and
>they like the coffee to taste good too. It doesn't have to taste GREAT in
>the alt.coffee hint of blueberries and grapefruit sense, but it has to be
>appealing to their palate (even if this means tons of caramel syrup - the
>American palate was raised on apple juice and Coca Cola). A lot of small
>business owners get so caught up in finding their niche and holding bongo
>drum night, poetry reading night, etc. that they forget the basics, so that
>they end up with the bongo drum lovers but not with everyone else.
>
>
>
>
>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:erqbb2d7hi41p4i80ujj88hqoqopblini2@4ax.com...
>>
>> Unfortunately, foolishly spoken, Jack. Their game is not selling
>> coffee and if you understood the basics of Starbucks, you would know
>> that. They ceased being a coffee company years ago. Go at them on that
>> basis and you will be shooting blanks.
>>
>> Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
>> center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
>> Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
>> movie business as well via placement and branding.
>>
>> They are a beverage, food, entertainment company at the least.
>>
>> Is short - you cannot play their game, it is simply too big for a
>> local coffee merchant.
>>
>> You have to niche them locally. It is being done well in more and more
>> places.
>>
>>
>> jim
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative
>>>is
>>>to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
>>>beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to
>>>goodness,
>>>it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
>>>you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:i1vab2tdjkpjjefmcrabrstir783tu4m6n@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>> You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
>>>> You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
>>>> is a mandate today.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>>>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because
>>>>>Americans
>>>>>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder
>>>>>Bread
>>>>>in favor of baguettes.
>>>>>
>>>>>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>>>>>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their atmosphere
>>>>>is
>>>>>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>>>>>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause
>>>>>people
>>>>>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it look
>>>>>like
>>>>>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional,
>>>>>polished
>>>>>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist.
>>>>>Imagine
>>>>>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
>>>>>which place would you stop at?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>>>>>underestimating the taste
>>>>>>>of the American public.
>>>>>>>Bernie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies). There's
>>>>>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marshall
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 17:04:54
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Don't condescend to me. I took marketing classes when I was at Wharton and
studied all this crap. It was mostly a load of BS then and it's mostly a
load of BS now. The #1 thing that marketers market is themselves. You can
run a highly successful business and not know a thing about "segmentation"
and "psychographics" and all the buzzwords - you just have to produce a
product or service that people want.
PS Even worse that the marketers were the econometricians, with all their
phoney math giving an appearance of certainty to the unknown. An
experience I'll never forget is that they took us to see the head of WEFA
and the man said with all seriousness that the Russian economy would pass
the US economy within a certain # of years - due to more efficient central
planning their growth rates were higher than ours so it was only a matter of
time before the curves crossed. Here is the graph to prove it. I had
relatives in the Soviet Union and the poor people lived in constant fear of
arrest and couldn't even get toilet paper, so I knew even then as a kid that
this was totally wrong. I learned a long time ago not to trust "experts" -
they're just humans and no smarter than you or I and often they are peddling
some self serving agenda - in a "central planning" economy this guy would
have been one of the most powerful people in the country and that was what
he was aiming for.
"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:p7adb2pt5obo9o0vofra0ablu82eg4p74e@4ax.com...
>
>
> No word games are being played, Jack. It IS about marketing,
> segmentation and other words I'll not use to keep your confusion
> factor in check. You obviously have little more than a plebian
> understanding of segmentation and what can and cannot be done with it.
> Lord help you when you have to deal with psychographics - but that is
> where you need to go, not demographic-style segmentation.
>
>
> jim
>
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:05:37 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers. This is
>>doubly so in a relatively small town where there are not millions of
>>customers. So Bernie has to make it so that Ms. Average Customer will want
>>to buy her latte at his shop - it has to be "cooler" to be seen with a
>>Bernie's cup than with a *$ cup.
>>
>>Marketers love to play market segmentation games - the problem is that no
>>one bother to tell consumers what segment they "belong" to, so consumers
>>foolishly think that the whole universe of choices is open to them. If
>>you
>>don't watch out, the customers in "your" niche may mistakenly wander into
>>an
>>establishment that "belongs" to another niche and like it better there.
>>Maybe Bernie could give out color coded badges and all the shops in town
>>could color code their signs, so "green" customers would only go into
>>"green" shops, "blue" customers into "blue" shops, etc. Short of that, he
>>has to do everything he can to make his shop appealing to a broad spectrum
>>(or at least that spectrum of people who are willing to spend $3 on a cup
>>of
>>coffee). Most people like the same things - they like a clean shop,
>>pleasant
>>and prompt service, nice atmosphere, etc. - these are universals. Oh, and
>>they like the coffee to taste good too. It doesn't have to taste GREAT in
>>the alt.coffee hint of blueberries and grapefruit sense, but it has to be
>>appealing to their palate (even if this means tons of caramel syrup - the
>>American palate was raised on apple juice and Coca Cola). A lot of small
>>business owners get so caught up in finding their niche and holding bongo
>>drum night, poetry reading night, etc. that they forget the basics, so
>>that
>>they end up with the bongo drum lovers but not with everyone else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:erqbb2d7hi41p4i80ujj88hqoqopblini2@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, foolishly spoken, Jack. Their game is not selling
>>> coffee and if you understood the basics of Starbucks, you would know
>>> that. They ceased being a coffee company years ago. Go at them on that
>>> basis and you will be shooting blanks.
>>>
>>> Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
>>> center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
>>> Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
>>> movie business as well via placement and branding.
>>>
>>> They are a beverage, food, entertainment company at the least.
>>>
>>> Is short - you cannot play their game, it is simply too big for a
>>> local coffee merchant.
>>>
>>> You have to niche them locally. It is being done well in more and more
>>> places.
>>>
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative
>>>>is
>>>>to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
>>>>beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to
>>>>goodness,
>>>>it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard.
>>>>If
>>>>you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:i1vab2tdjkpjjefmcrabrstir783tu4m6n@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
>>>>> You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
>>>>> is a mandate today.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>>>>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because
>>>>>>Americans
>>>>>>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder
>>>>>>Bread
>>>>>>in favor of baguettes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>>>>>>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their
>>>>>>atmosphere
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>>>>>>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause
>>>>>>people
>>>>>>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it
>>>>>>look
>>>>>>like
>>>>>>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional,
>>>>>>polished
>>>>>>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist.
>>>>>>Imagine
>>>>>>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the
>>>>>>street -
>>>>>>which place would you stop at?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman
>>>>>>> <bdigman@zianet.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>>>>>>underestimating the taste
>>>>>>>>of the American public.
>>>>>>>>Bernie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies).
>>>>>>> There's
>>>>>>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marshall
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 21:26:13
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:04:54 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>you just have to produce a
>product or service that people want.
That is not now, nor has it ever been, true.
You were not even aware that you wanted half of the most successful
products on this planet until the marketing process was initiated.
I would happily make you a list to prove that point.
I offer deodorant and Microsoft as examples so this can move along.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 09:57:48
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>>you just have to produce a
>>product or service that people want.
>
> That is not now, nor has it ever been, true.
> You were not even aware that you wanted half of the most successful
> products on this planet until the marketing process was initiated.
> I would happily make you a list to prove that point.
> I offer deodorant and Microsoft as examples so this can move along.
>
Let's not forget that *$ got where they are on a miniscule marketing budget
The simple truth above is still on the point. You produce a product or
service that people want, then they will buy it. Your follow up point is
equally valid, because marketing gives information about a product that
moves people to buy it, without which they may not have.
It's simpler if people need a product, 'cos then you are simply asking them
to need yours over someone elses.
But as long as it's a want product, your are dealing with whims :)
Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 23:29:17
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 17:04:54 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Don't condescend to me. I took marketing classes when I was at Wharton and
>studied all this crap. It was mostly a load of BS then and it's mostly a
>load of BS now. The #1 thing that marketers market is themselves. You can
>run a highly successful business and not know a thing about "segmentation"
>and "psychographics" and all the buzzwords - you just have to produce a
>product or service that people want.
>
>PS Even worse that the marketers were the econometricians, with all their
>phoney math giving an appearance of certainty to the unknown. An
>experience I'll never forget is that they took us to see the head of WEFA
>and the man said with all seriousness that the Russian economy would pass
>the US economy within a certain # of years - due to more efficient central
>planning their growth rates were higher than ours so it was only a matter of
>time before the curves crossed. Here is the graph to prove it. I had
>relatives in the Soviet Union and the poor people lived in constant fear of
>arrest and couldn't even get toilet paper, so I knew even then as a kid that
>this was totally wrong. I learned a long time ago not to trust "experts" -
>they're just humans and no smarter than you or I and often they are peddling
>some self serving agenda - in a "central planning" economy this guy would
>have been one of the most powerful people in the country and that was what
>he was aiming for.
Anyone can claim to have attended Wharton and taken marketing classes
- your diatribes say otherwise.
The question is what marketing guru did you follow that lead you down
the garden path?
jim
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 08:45:37
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
LOL the frigging diploma is hanging on the wall in front of my face, next to
the one from law school . "OMNIBVS HAS LITTERAS LECTVRIS SALVTEM DICIT"
You're welcome to come over and inspect them any time. I'll even make you a
cup of coffee.
"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:7aeeb2981s97ntg2on8b2uskerfc1o9m2p@4ax.com...
>>
>
> Anyone can claim to have attended Wharton and taken marketing classes
> - your diatribes say otherwise.
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 11:55:57
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:45:37 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>LOL the frigging diploma is hanging on the wall in front of my face, next to
>the one from law school . "OMNIBVS HAS LITTERAS LECTVRIS SALVTEM DICIT"
>You're welcome to come over and inspect them any time. I'll even make you a
>cup of coffee.
>
>
>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:7aeeb2981s97ntg2on8b2uskerfc1o9m2p@4ax.com...
>>>
>>
>> Anyone can claim to have attended Wharton and taken marketing classes
>> - your diatribes say otherwise.
>>
>
Love to have a cup of your coffee sometime in the future. That law
degree, when posted in a news group, is just as ficitcious as the
Wharton stuff. Anyone can say anything on USENET about credentials.
That's one reason why I never put mine into play in newsgroups.
In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering why
- but that is the substance for a thread elsewhere.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 04:56:26
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:55:57 -0700, ensenadajim
<ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote:
>In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering why
my usual comment: "marketing is cheerleading for adults".
--barry "not a big fan of cheerleading, either"
rah rah. ;^P
jack once did "coochie coochie coo" for maddie. i have a video of it
somewhere.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 08:40:18
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Barry - you promised that you had erased all the tapes. I'll never give in
to blackmail! ;-)
Jim- it's good to be skeptical but you have to make a reasonable assessment
of credibility on usenet, just as in real life. why would I bother to lie
about my credentials in this way?
"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:28tgb2hjdtoi0rlrstsrh4to14o3hb6n1j@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:55:57 -0700, ensenadajim
> <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering why
>
> my usual comment: "marketing is cheerleading for adults".
>
>
> --barry "not a big fan of cheerleading, either"
>
> rah rah. ;^P
>
> jack once did "coochie coochie coo" for maddie. i have a video of it
> somewhere.
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 12:12:43
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 08:40:18 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Barry - you promised that you had erased all the tapes. I'll never give in
>to blackmail! ;-)
>
>Jim- it's good to be skeptical but you have to make a reasonable assessment
>of credibility on usenet, just as in real life. why would I bother to lie
>about my credentials in this way?
>
>
>"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote in message
>news:28tgb2hjdtoi0rlrstsrh4to14o3hb6n1j@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 11:55:57 -0700, ensenadajim
>> <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering why
>>
>> my usual comment: "marketing is cheerleading for adults".
>>
>>
>> --barry "not a big fan of cheerleading, either"
>>
>> rah rah. ;^P
>>
>> jack once did "coochie coochie coo" for maddie. i have a video of it
>> somewhere.
>>
>
Why would someone else bother to lie instead of telling the truth?
jim
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 19:59:24
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 12:12:43 -0700, ensenadajim
<ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Why would someone else bother to lie instead of telling the truth?
isn't that "marketing"? ;)
--barry "diving under the table"
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 16:02:19
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 19:59:24 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 12:12:43 -0700, ensenadajim
><ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Why would someone else bother to lie instead of telling the truth?
>
>
>isn't that "marketing"? ;)
>
>
>--barry "diving under the table"
Some, but not all.
jim
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 09:35:43
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>
>>Barry - you promised that you had erased all the tapes. I'll never give in
>>to blackmail! ;-)
>>
>>Jim- it's good to be skeptical but you have to make a reasonable
>>assessment
>>of credibility on usenet, just as in real life. why would I bother to lie
>>about my credentials in this way?
>>
>>
>>> >In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering why
>>>
>>> my usual comment: "marketing is cheerleading for adults".
>>>
>>>
>>> --barry "not a big fan of cheerleading, either"
>>>
>>> rah rah. ;^P
>>>
>>> jack once did "coochie coochie coo" for maddie. i have a video of it
>>> somewhere.
>>>
>>
>
> Why would someone else bother to lie instead of telling the truth?
>
>
> jim
>
Because a lot of us in this newsgroup have met others who can vouch for
whatever - Rob can vouch I have as many kids as Barry has working espresso
machines for instance, Barry can vouch that Jack can coochie coo with the
best...
I was aware Jack did law, Barry is a roaster etc etc etc
The regulars are generally easily "verified and vouched for" round here...
Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 16 Jul 2006 22:33:06
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 09:35:43 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>>
>>>Barry - you promised that you had erased all the tapes. I'll never give in
>>>to blackmail! ;-)
>>>
>>>Jim- it's good to be skeptical but you have to make a reasonable
>>>assessment
>>>of credibility on usenet, just as in real life. why would I bother to lie
>>>about my credentials in this way?
>>>
>>>
>>>> >In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering why
>>>>
>>>> my usual comment: "marketing is cheerleading for adults".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --barry "not a big fan of cheerleading, either"
>>>>
>>>> rah rah. ;^P
>>>>
>>>> jack once did "coochie coochie coo" for maddie. i have a video of it
>>>> somewhere.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Why would someone else bother to lie instead of telling the truth?
>>
>>
>> jim
>>
>
>Because a lot of us in this newsgroup have met others who can vouch for
>whatever - Rob can vouch I have as many kids as Barry has working espresso
>machines for instance, Barry can vouch that Jack can coochie coo with the
>best...
>
>I was aware Jack did law, Barry is a roaster etc etc etc
>
>The regulars are generally easily "verified and vouched for" round here...
>
>Brent
>
Thanks for vouching your "co-conspirators." ;- >
jim
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Jul 2006 22:57:46
From: Rob van Loenhout
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4hvot9F1f0jnU1@individual.net...
> >
> >>Barry - you promised that you had erased all the tapes. I'll never give
in
> >>to blackmail! ;-)
> >>
> >>Jim- it's good to be skeptical but you have to make a reasonable
> >>assessment
> >>of credibility on usenet, just as in real life. why would I bother to
lie
> >>about my credentials in this way?
> >>
> >>
> >>> >In any event, you sure turned sour on marketing and I am wondering
why
> >>>
> >>> my usual comment: "marketing is cheerleading for adults".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --barry "not a big fan of cheerleading, either"
> >>>
> >>> rah rah. ;^P
> >>>
> >>> jack once did "coochie coochie coo" for maddie. i have a video of it
> >>> somewhere.
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > Why would someone else bother to lie instead of telling the truth?
> >
> >
> > jim
> >
>
> Because a lot of us in this newsgroup have met others who can vouch for
> whatever - Rob can vouch I have as many kids as Barry has working espresso
> machines for instance, Barry can vouch that Jack can coochie coo with the
> best...
I only counted 6 kids, where are the other 7?
Ro
> I was aware Jack did law, Barry is a roaster etc etc etc
>
> The regulars are generally easily "verified and vouched for" round here...
>
> Brent
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Jul 2006 09:34:09
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>>
>> Because a lot of us in this newsgroup have met others who can vouch for
>> whatever - Rob can vouch I have as many kids as Barry has working
>> espresso
>> machines for instance, Barry can vouch that Jack can coochie coo with the
>> best...
>
> I only counted 6 kids, where are the other 7?
>
> Ro
>
Damn, Barry got more working? I give up...
:)
Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Jul 2006 22:48:40
From: Rob van Loenhout
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4i51h2F27p60U1@individual.net...
> >>
> >> Because a lot of us in this newsgroup have met others who can vouch for
> >> whatever - Rob can vouch I have as many kids as Barry has working
> >> espresso
> >> machines for instance, Barry can vouch that Jack can coochie coo with
the
> >> best...
> >
> > I only counted 6 kids, where are the other 7?
> >
> > Ro
> >
>
> Damn, Barry got more working? I give up...
Bout time, Karen will be more productive roasting coffee if she isn't
pregnant every few months.
Rob
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 09:01:45
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
But Jacks point that people don't always move as predicted is a valid one.
Remember *$ grew to where it is today on a relatively low advertising
budget - that in itself breaks one of the many "rules" of business.
In any marketing plan, you are using historical knowledge and market
research to predict behaviour and take advantage of that behaviour.
It isn't pure science, it doesn't always work, I think thats the point Jack
was making.
He may not be 100% correct, but neither is the theory he is challenging...
Brent
> No word games are being played, Jack. It IS about marketing,
> segmentation and other words I'll not use to keep your confusion
> factor in check. You obviously have little more than a plebian
> understanding of segmentation and what can and cannot be done with it.
> Lord help you when you have to deal with psychographics - but that is
> where you need to go, not demographic-style segmentation.
>
>
> jim
>
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:05:37 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers. This is
>>doubly so in a relatively small town where there are not millions of
>>customers. So Bernie has to make it so that Ms. Average Customer will want
>>to buy her latte at his shop - it has to be "cooler" to be seen with a
>>Bernie's cup than with a *$ cup.
>>
>>Marketers love to play market segmentation games - the problem is that no
>>one bother to tell consumers what segment they "belong" to, so consumers
>>foolishly think that the whole universe of choices is open to them. If
>>you
>>don't watch out, the customers in "your" niche may mistakenly wander into
>>an
>>establishment that "belongs" to another niche and like it better there.
>>Maybe Bernie could give out color coded badges and all the shops in town
>>could color code their signs, so "green" customers would only go into
>>"green" shops, "blue" customers into "blue" shops, etc. Short of that, he
>>has to do everything he can to make his shop appealing to a broad spectrum
>>(or at least that spectrum of people who are willing to spend $3 on a cup
>>of
>>coffee). Most people like the same things - they like a clean shop,
>>pleasant
>>and prompt service, nice atmosphere, etc. - these are universals. Oh, and
>>they like the coffee to taste good too. It doesn't have to taste GREAT in
>>the alt.coffee hint of blueberries and grapefruit sense, but it has to be
>>appealing to their palate (even if this means tons of caramel syrup - the
>>American palate was raised on apple juice and Coca Cola). A lot of small
>>business owners get so caught up in finding their niche and holding bongo
>>drum night, poetry reading night, etc. that they forget the basics, so
>>that
>>they end up with the bongo drum lovers but not with everyone else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:erqbb2d7hi41p4i80ujj88hqoqopblini2@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, foolishly spoken, Jack. Their game is not selling
>>> coffee and if you understood the basics of Starbucks, you would know
>>> that. They ceased being a coffee company years ago. Go at them on that
>>> basis and you will be shooting blanks.
>>>
>>> Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
>>> center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
>>> Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
>>> movie business as well via placement and branding.
>>>
>>> They are a beverage, food, entertainment company at the least.
>>>
>>> Is short - you cannot play their game, it is simply too big for a
>>> local coffee merchant.
>>>
>>> You have to niche them locally. It is being done well in more and more
>>> places.
>>>
>>>
>>> jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 20:23:39 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative
>>>>is
>>>>to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
>>>>beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to
>>>>goodness,
>>>>it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard.
>>>>If
>>>>you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:i1vab2tdjkpjjefmcrabrstir783tu4m6n@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> You do not beat Starbucks by playing their game - you cannot play it.
>>>>> You do it by niching them where they are not. Stellar customer service
>>>>> is a mandate today.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
>>>>> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because
>>>>>>Americans
>>>>>>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder
>>>>>>Bread
>>>>>>in favor of baguettes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There's no doubt that you have to beat *$ at their own game - if their
>>>>>>waiting time is short, yours has to be even shorter. If their
>>>>>>atmosphere
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>nice, yours has to be nicer. Etc. If they have 5 kinds of pastry, you
>>>>>>should have 10. Don't try to compete on price - that will only cause
>>>>>>people
>>>>>>to consider your place to be bargain basement. You want to make it
>>>>>>look
>>>>>>like
>>>>>>*$ is the inferior place and that you run the more professional,
>>>>>>polished
>>>>>>operation, not vice versa. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist.
>>>>>>Imagine
>>>>>>that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the
>>>>>>street -
>>>>>>which place would you stop at?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:254ab2dgq08b74mmlnjc7v6d0sl7kfhvor@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600, bernie digman
>>>>>>> <bdigman@zianet.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
>>>>>>>>underestimating the taste
>>>>>>>>of the American public.
>>>>>>>>Bernie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tell that to Interstate Bakeries (Wonder Bread and Twinkies).
>>>>>>> There's
>>>>>>> hope for you, Bernie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marshall
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 23:26:33
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:01:45 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>But Jacks point that people don't always move as predicted is a valid one.
>
>Remember *$ grew to where it is today on a relatively low advertising
>budget - that in itself breaks one of the many "rules" of business.
When you have NO competition, why would you need a large advertising
budget - Starbucks did not take off until it went public and had the
funds to start massively promoting itself.
>In any marketing plan, you are using historical knowledge and market
>research to predict behaviour and take advantage of that behaviour.
Only if you buy into linear regression marketing theories.
>It isn't pure science, it doesn't always work, I think thats the point Jack
>was making.
>
>He may not be 100% correct, but neither is the theory he is challenging...
Marketing is more an art than science. Were it predicatble, we could
run the numbers, let the computers take over and go play a round.
jim
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 19:18:10
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:05:37 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
With all due respect Jack, you have convinced me that you have never
been a business owner. If I'm wrong I would love to know the business
you were in, as the opportunities in that business appear boundless.
Your thesis is just simply wrong.
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 08:58:41
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>
>>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
>
>
> With all due respect Jack, you have convinced me that you have never
> been a business owner. If I'm wrong I would love to know the business
> you were in, as the opportunities in that business appear boundless.
> Your thesis is just simply wrong.
In what way is he wrong?
Having worked in several niche and verticals, that paragraph is pretty well
on the mark.
Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:11:47
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In article <4hnpj9Fg1vuU1@individual.net >, me@privacy.net says...
> >
> >>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
> >>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
> >>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
> >
> >
> > With all due respect Jack, you have convinced me that you have never
> > been a business owner. If I'm wrong I would love to know the business
> > you were in, as the opportunities in that business appear boundless.
> > Your thesis is just simply wrong.
>
> In what way is he wrong?
>
If Jack was dead wrong, there'd be no such thing as a commodity. Every
business would be able to find and exploit meaningful differences for
which customers would pay a premium.
We all know there ARE commodities. But there are probably many
businesses out there who are competing as though they *are* in commodity
businesses even when it's possible to get out of that dog-eat-dog game.
It's best to avoid head-to-head competition - acting as though you and
your competitors are interchangeable commodities - wherever possible. It
simply transfers money from the hands of business owners into the hands
of customers. The way to avoid that transfer is to differentiate your
store IN WAYS THAT MATTER TO CUSTOMERS. In every pool of customers
there are differing preferences and priorities. If people prefer
overall what you provide more than what the other guy provides, they'll
come to you. If there are enough of them, you'll survive and prosper.
BUT . . . can you find these differing preferences and priorities, and
act on them in ways customers notice?? The big questions are always
"what REALLY matters to customers?", and "how can you make your
product/company different in ways that will motivate customers to choose
YOUR store?".
If you can't create differences that will attract and keep enough
customers to make a profit, you're dead. You can slice and dice the
market into all the segments you want, but if you can't convert your
idea of segments into meaningful differences that affect customers'
choices, there aren't any segments!
Rick
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 00:43:31
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:11:47 GMT, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
<rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net > wrote:
>In article <4hnpj9Fg1vuU1@individual.net>, me@privacy.net says...
>> >
>> >>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>> >>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>> >>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
>> >
>> >
>> > With all due respect Jack, you have convinced me that you have never
>> > been a business owner. If I'm wrong I would love to know the business
>> > you were in, as the opportunities in that business appear boundless.
>> > Your thesis is just simply wrong.
>>
>> In what way is he wrong?
>>
>If Jack was dead wrong, there'd be no such thing as a commodity. Every
>business would be able to find and exploit meaningful differences for
>which customers would pay a premium.
>
>We all know there ARE commodities. But there are probably many
>businesses out there who are competing as though they *are* in commodity
>businesses even when it's possible to get out of that dog-eat-dog game.
That is the point. IMO Jack is only wrong as it pertains to the
specialty coffee business. Specialty coffee is not a commodity
product.
If you are planning a business model that will share "units" with
Starbucks, adios.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 14:43:03
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Specialty coffee is so a commodity...
How do you think the bulk of it is traded?
Just my 1/2 cent :)
Brent
> That is the point. IMO Jack is only wrong as it pertains to the
> specialty coffee business. Specialty coffee is not a commodity
> product.
> If you are planning a business model that will share "units" with
> Starbucks, adios.
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 04:22:48
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:43:03 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>Specialty coffee is so a commodity...
Is not :-P
>
>How do you think the bulk of it is traded?
>
>Just my 1/2 cent :)
>
>Brent
By that logic a Ferrari is a commodity by virtue of the fact that it's
primary component is traded as a commodity. :-)
Specialty coffee is an art, a science, a form of entertainment, and a
sensory experience. If you believe it should be sold as a commodity
that's up to you, but I hope I own the joint across the street from
you. :-)
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 17:47:09
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Hi Steve,
Coffee is a commodity. Unfortunately.
I think I have waded into enought Fair Trade debates for it to be known that
I disagree with coffee being a commodity.
I would welcome you opening across the street from me! It would be one less
potential complaint about the smoke from roasting :)
Brent
>
>>Specialty coffee is so a commodity...
>
> Is not :-P
>
>>
>>How do you think the bulk of it is traded?
>>
>>Just my 1/2 cent :)
>>
>>Brent
>
> By that logic a Ferrari is a commodity by virtue of the fact that it's
> primary component is traded as a commodity. :-)
>
> Specialty coffee is an art, a science, a form of entertainment, and a
> sensory experience. If you believe it should be sold as a commodity
> that's up to you, but I hope I own the joint across the street from
> you. :-)
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 10:44:04
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Specialty coffee is about as far from a "Commodity" as you can get. Bulk
coffee is traded that way, but try and buy a contract for 33,000lbs of Kenya
Githiru from the NYBOT and see how far you get. Tom got a couple of 60kg
bags, I got a couple of 60kg bags, maybe a dozen other bags were distributed
worldwide, that was it.
--
Alan
alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 09:29:37
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Thats correct Alan, but you wouldn't expect that coffee to be sold in a
roadside petrol station...
> Specialty coffee is about as far from a "Commodity" as you can get. Bulk
> coffee is traded that way, but try and buy a contract for 33,000lbs of
> Kenya Githiru from the NYBOT and see how far you get. Tom got a couple of
> 60kg bags, I got a couple of 60kg bags, maybe a dozen other bags were
> distributed worldwide, that was it.
>
>
> --
> Alan
>
> alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
> www.coffeeco.com.au
>
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 05:50:26
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 17:47:09 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>Coffee is a commodity. Unfortunately.
But not the end product. If one as active as you are in the business
believes or accepts that the end product is a commodity by any stretch
of the definition then that would be unfortunate.
>
>I think I have waded into enought Fair Trade debates for it to be known that
>I disagree with coffee being a commodity.
>
>I would welcome you opening across the street from me! It would be one less
>potential complaint about the smoke from roasting :)
Never a complaint. Would you deliver?
Thanks for the discussion on this, Brent.
>
>Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 04:49:42
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 05:50:26 GMT, Steve <not@use.net > wrote:
>But not the end product. If one as active as you are in the business
>believes or accepts that the end product is a commodity by any stretch
>of the definition then that would be unfortunate.
>
from the *consumers* point of view, it largely *is* a commodity. i've
never seen so many instances of an "assumption of uniformity" within a
business as in specialty coffee. the most recent example was related
by a fellow roaster/retailer who has a bakery/cafe. a customer came
in, announced that she'd never been to his shop before, proceeded to
read the entire menu, and then ordered some lingoistic
frappa-something-or-other-with-legs-and-whip. his response?
"starbucks is over on the university campus, but i'd be happy to make
you a blended mocha."
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 17 Jul 2006 09:28:39
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>>Hi Steve,
>>
>>Coffee is a commodity. Unfortunately.
>
> But not the end product. If one as active as you are in the business
> believes or accepts that the end product is a commodity by any stretch
> of the definition then that would be unfortunate.
>
When chains try to sell a standardised product - be it coffee or petrol or
bread, it's a commodity - pay your money, get your ______
Bernie, Barry, me, you, it's a specialty product crafted with care. That's
why I don't get coffee at a garage to go.
>>
>>I think I have waded into enought Fair Trade debates for it to be known
>>that
>>I disagree with coffee being a commodity.
>>
>>I would welcome you opening across the street from me! It would be one
>>less
>>potential complaint about the smoke from roasting :)
>
> Never a complaint. Would you deliver?
> Thanks for the discussion on this, Brent.
>
Deliver, hell yes, did it for our neighbours yesterday - "Did we smell you
guys roasting just now?" me: "yep, heres your coffee, doesn't get much
fresher than that!"
Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 17:42:16
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In article <4hooigFji13U1@individual.net >, me@privacy.net says...
> Hi Steve,
>
> Coffee is a commodity. Unfortunately.
>
But the experience to be had in a fine coffee shop is not. The question
is "what coffee shop experience" will attract enough customers who are
willing to pay with their money and frequent business?
Starbucks has answered that question for a large part of the market.
Different answers are possible and they can be profitable.
Rick
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 21:05:22
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:58:41 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>>
>>>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
>>>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>>>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
>>
>>
>> With all due respect Jack, you have convinced me that you have never
>> been a business owner. If I'm wrong I would love to know the business
>> you were in, as the opportunities in that business appear boundless.
>> Your thesis is just simply wrong.
>
>In what way is he wrong?
>
>Having worked in several niche and verticals, that paragraph is pretty well
>on the mark.
>
>Brent
>
IMO Brent, that statement is analogous to McDonald's and Le Cirque
will sell one a meal , or Wallmart and Nordstrom's will sell one
jeans; therefore the market paradigm is "competing for the same pool
of customers".
That's ridiculous, and dangerous.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:09:12
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
It turns out that the same people who shop at Norstrom's (for an expensive
watch) shop at Walmart (for paper towels) . And the same people who have
dinner at Le Cirque one night might go to McD's on a different night
(remember that OJ Simpson - the kind of guy who dines at Le Cirque, ate at
McDonalds the night of Nicole's murder).
Costco has figured this out (even if you haven't) and that's why when you go
to Costco they will sell you BOTH an expensive watch and some paper towels.
The "two Americas" thing is a load of BS peddled by class warfare
advocates - we all live in the same country. My cleaning lady buys coffee at
Starbucks.
"Steve" <not@use.net > wrote in message
news:hqcdb29nqqbr3t9nhcgurjvpjqtgkna9od@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:58:41 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>
> IMO Brent, that statement is analogous to McDonald's and Le Cirque
> will sell one a meal , or Wallmart and Nordstrom's will sell one
> jeans; therefore the market paradigm is "competing for the same pool
> of customers".
> That's ridiculous, and dangerous.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 05:08:41
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:09:12 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>It turns out that the same people who shop at Norstrom's (for an expensive
>watch) shop at Walmart (for paper towels) .
So Nordstrom's should be selling paper towels? I don't get what the
point is on this example. It sounds to me like Nordstrom got the
client they wanted, as did Walmart.
>And the same people who have
>dinner at Le Cirque one night might go to McD's on a different night
They might well do that, but that does not illustrate that Le Cirque
and Mcd's are in the same business. In fact, both of your scenarios
illustrate that they are all in vastly different businesses.
>(remember that OJ Simpson - the kind of guy who dines at Le Cirque, ate at
>McDonalds the night of Nicole's murder).
I do admit that marketing to allegededly-homicidal washed-up sports
figures may present a unique set of challenges.
>
>Costco has figured this out (even if you haven't) and that's why when you go
>to Costco they will sell you BOTH an expensive watch and some paper towels.
Actually Jack, it's funny you brought that up. No, I'm not being
sarcastic.
I was just talking with a friend the other day about an interview in
Forbes with the CEO of Costco, in which the CEO describes how upon
watching other bulk stores enter the market he realized that Costco
would not want to be positioned as another commodity outlet.
Since that decision Costco is now the largest specialty wine seller in
the U.S., and ranks in the top three of diamond sellers. They read the
opening in the market and expanded to fill it. That's what I'm
suggesting: to get out of the commodity business, so I think I do "get
it".
>
>The "two Americas" thing is a load of BS peddled by class warfare
>advocates - we all live in the same country. My cleaning lady buys coffee at
>Starbucks.
I'm in California, there is no class warfare here, we all surrendered
to the ruling class.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 05:14:40
From: Steve
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:09:12 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>The "two Americas" thing is a load of BS peddled by class warfare
>advocates - we all live in the same country. My cleaning lady buys coffee at
>Starbucks.
But her boss apparently doesn't ;-)
I couldn't resist.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 09:48:59
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>>>
>>>>You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that
>>>>you
>>>>want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee and so will
>>>>Bernie, and they are competing for the same pool of customers.
>>>
>>>
>>> With all due respect Jack, you have convinced me that you have never
>>> been a business owner. If I'm wrong I would love to know the business
>>> you were in, as the opportunities in that business appear boundless.
>>> Your thesis is just simply wrong.
>>
>>In what way is he wrong?
>>
>>Having worked in several niche and verticals, that paragraph is pretty
>>well
>>on the mark.
>>
>>Brent
>>
>
> IMO Brent, that statement is analogous to McDonald's and Le Cirque
> will sell one a meal , or Wallmart and Nordstrom's will sell one
> jeans; therefore the market paradigm is "competing for the same pool
> of customers".
> That's ridiculous, and dangerous.
At the end of the day, if you have one player selling 1000 units of
anything, and another player starts up next door, yes there may be a
potential for more than 1000 units, but it isn't necessarily 2000, so in
theory you have two players selling 500 units each while the market grows.
Sure, sometimes you will get an instant increase in the market, such that
the second player grabs an untapped customer base, but there is still only
so much capacity.
When you talk top quality versus average quality, you are assuming that
people will automagically go for the best. I don't think that is a safe
assumption, especially in coffee and food. People know what they like, and
like what they know.
People know *$. At present people know Bernie. But they also know *$.
The point I think Jack was making is that while Bernies customers may like
Bernie etc etc etc, they don't necessarily know that they fall into the
"customers who enjoy a drink and location that is superior to *$" and may
accidentaly walk into *$.
In the end the pool of customer is essentially the same, but if *$ is
cooler, and the customer doesn't give a crap about taste, quality, service
even, then *$ will win. In time, invariably *$ will build a new base of
coffee drinkers in the area, and if they are not loyal to *$, then Bernie
will pick some up.
The reality is, at the end of the day we don't *really* know.
When a customer stops at *$ instead of Bernies 'cos it's easier this
morning, thats called a lost sale, in food service, that lost sale is lost
forever, and may lead to more lost sales from that same customer in the
future.
The lost sale concept is one that very few businesses get a grip on. Causes
can be bad service, big queues, wrong food selection, didn't have time to
stop, the other place was empty thus faster. Some you can combat (Mrs Smith
likes the chicken pie, and is in at around 1.30, best we hold the last piece
back till 2 for instance) but the rush of a busy lifestyle is harder, the
inconvenience of your location at a given time is harder.
So in a given market, of say 1000 cups, Bernie is going to lose some, it
can't be helped, but controlling the loss is a key, and understanding that
people aren't necessarily going to play in the correct demographic way is
important - it could curb bigger losess. If Bernie can work out how to
entice people away from the shiny new *$ then he will be confounding a lot
of research, but it is doable, because it is only research.
Personally I would buy quality over convenience, but don't go to the bank on
that - I might have to pick convenience occaisionally. And I will certainly
walk away from bad service.
But then I am an oddball :)
Brent
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 16:35:34
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4hnsheFggcnU1@individual.net...
<snip/ >
> Personally I would buy quality over convenience, but don't go to the bank
on
> that - I might have to pick convenience occaisionally. And I will
certainly
> walk away from bad service.
>
> But then I am an oddball :)
>
> Brent
>
>
Me too.
Unfortunately and sadly, the world of cafe customers is more diverse.
One of the more popular cafes here in San Diego, CA is 3 blocks away from my
house. Their coffee in general sucks, service is ok but they have succeeded
in beating out all the other cafes, including *$, within a 2+ mile radius in
terms of numbers of customers, based on catering to diverse groups.
Alcoholics anonomous meets there regularly for one, but the main crowd is
young people who flock for open mic nights, poetry readings (sorry Jack but
it's true at least in this case), cd releases, comedy, and a wide spectrum
of music. Typically of an evening it's so popular that the crowds spill out
onto the sidewalk. A few months back they moved to being open 24/7. It only
took a few days for that to become profitable as well. I've heard that the
local police are frequent customers there in the wee hours though I tend to
sleep then so haven't verified.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 23:20:54
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Nice analysis. My hat is off to you - but be careful on that 500 each
cups - sorta like two hunters shooting at the a duck. The first shoots
ahead, the second behind, but on average, they got the duck.
jim
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:48:59 +1200, "Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote:
>At the end of the day, if you have one player selling 1000 units of
>anything, and another player starts up next door, yes there may be a
>potential for more than 1000 units, but it isn't necessarily 2000, so in
>theory you have two players selling 500 units each while the market grows.
>
>Sure, sometimes you will get an instant increase in the market, such that
>the second player grabs an untapped customer base, but there is still only
>so much capacity.
>
>When you talk top quality versus average quality, you are assuming that
>people will automagically go for the best. I don't think that is a safe
>assumption, especially in coffee and food. People know what they like, and
>like what they know.
>
>People know *$. At present people know Bernie. But they also know *$.
>
>The point I think Jack was making is that while Bernies customers may like
>Bernie etc etc etc, they don't necessarily know that they fall into the
>"customers who enjoy a drink and location that is superior to *$" and may
>accidentaly walk into *$.
>
>In the end the pool of customer is essentially the same, but if *$ is
>cooler, and the customer doesn't give a crap about taste, quality, service
>even, then *$ will win. In time, invariably *$ will build a new base of
>coffee drinkers in the area, and if they are not loyal to *$, then Bernie
>will pick some up.
>
>The reality is, at the end of the day we don't *really* know.
>
>When a customer stops at *$ instead of Bernies 'cos it's easier this
>morning, thats called a lost sale, in food service, that lost sale is lost
>forever, and may lead to more lost sales from that same customer in the
>future.
>
>The lost sale concept is one that very few businesses get a grip on. Causes
>can be bad service, big queues, wrong food selection, didn't have time to
>stop, the other place was empty thus faster. Some you can combat (Mrs Smith
>likes the chicken pie, and is in at around 1.30, best we hold the last piece
>back till 2 for instance) but the rush of a busy lifestyle is harder, the
>inconvenience of your location at a given time is harder.
>
>So in a given market, of say 1000 cups, Bernie is going to lose some, it
>can't be helped, but controlling the loss is a key, and understanding that
>people aren't necessarily going to play in the correct demographic way is
>important - it could curb bigger losess. If Bernie can work out how to
>entice people away from the shiny new *$ then he will be confounding a lot
>of research, but it is doable, because it is only research.
>
>Personally I would buy quality over convenience, but don't go to the bank on
>that - I might have to pick convenience occaisionally. And I will certainly
>walk away from bad service.
>
>But then I am an oddball :)
>
>Brent
>
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 17:21:03
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:37:27 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Interstate has other problems - if they are broke it's not because Americans
>have suddenly stopped eating Twinkies in favor of madeleines or Wonder Bread
>in favor of baguettes.
Actually that was exactly their problem. Wonder Bread sales fell for
years as consumers switched to better breads.
Marshall
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 05:23:42
From: Danny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
bernie digman wrote:
>
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased
> a lot down the street from the store and will begin building in short
> time. This will be the third in a town of 80,000. With the lowest
> demographics of all but Mississippi. We now have a good drive-through
> and a large enough menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on
> excellent coffee. Excellent coffee will always lose out to convienience
> in America. I'm thinking of adding a second window and a fast-order
> board in the lane to speed things up as much as possible. I figure if I
> match the speed of a national chain and exceed their quality I'll not
> lose too much ground. I sure as heck don't kid myself that I'll be
> competing on a level field, but by moving slightly to a different field
> we should be doing okay. I'm a firm believer in the old adage that
> nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the taste of the American
> public.
> Bernie
>
I deal with the ever increasing competition by maintaining my
standards, improving customer service and sticking with the
traditional Italian espresso menu. I rarely get asked for anything
Starbucks-like, since I train my customers to get addicted to proper
coffee. I disagree with Jack in that respect - loyalty is everything
here. I can comfortably keep my prices below *$ and give a quality
product. In an area where just about every retail operation has a
superauto or other espresso machine, or sells a "latte", sometimes for
as low as 60p I can't hope to compete on price. I *can* compete on
quality, though.
In the last 12 months 4 new operations have or are starting up. They
all sell (speciality) coffee, but I'm still here, with an ever growing
customer base (at least in the summer :) ). This isn't much of a
tourist spot, so repeat business is everything, and to encourage
loyalty I do not compromise on quality and I reward customers with the
occasional "round on me" etc.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 00:56:53
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
> loyalty I do not compromise on quality and I reward customers with the
> occasional "round on me" etc.
THANK YOU! I can't believe so few businesses do that.
For years, I went to the same Thai restaurant down the street from me.
After two years of going at least once a week, they still didn't know my
name and they still occasionally put heaps of shrimp in my "vegetarian pad
thai", my zillionth one.
A Chinese restaurant opened with delicious food. I went there early on a
few times, and they immediately recognized that I ordered vegetarian dishes.
They started bringing me a free Agedashi Tofu appetizer for no particular
reason. I never went back to the Thai place.
Anyway, the Chinese place became very popular. Very hard to get a table.
And they still remembered me and continued to do "surprise" me with the free
agedashi tofu. The dot com thing went bust and they were frequently empty.
They were even nicer to me. But then I moved out of state. Two years later
I went back, took a table (didn't say anything, by the way), and five
minutes later I was brought a free agedashi tofu. The guy who brought it
said, "Nice to see you back."
I'm not saying you give free coffee every time or something. And please
don't use those awful buy 10 get 1 free cards crap, but just recognizing a
regular and once a year saying "This one is on me" can make a customer feel
like a human being.
C
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 08:29:14
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Cordo" <cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:e94uc5$b4l$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
>
>> loyalty I do not compromise on quality and I reward customers with the
>> occasional "round on me" etc.
>
> THANK YOU! I can't believe so few businesses do that.
>
> For years, I went to the same Thai restaurant down the street from me.
> After two years of going at least once a week, they still didn't know my
> name and they still occasionally put heaps of shrimp in my "vegetarian pad
> thai", my zillionth one.
>
> A Chinese restaurant opened with delicious food. I went there early on a
> few times, and they immediately recognized that I ordered vegetarian
> dishes. They started bringing me a free Agedashi Tofu appetizer for no
> particular reason. I never went back to the Thai place.
>
> Anyway, the Chinese place became very popular. Very hard to get a table.
> And they still remembered me and continued to do "surprise" me with the
> free agedashi tofu. The dot com thing went bust and they were frequently
> empty. They were even nicer to me. But then I moved out of state. Two
> years later I went back, took a table (didn't say anything, by the way),
> and five minutes later I was brought a free agedashi tofu. The guy who
> brought it said, "Nice to see you back."
>
> I'm not saying you give free coffee every time or something. And please
> don't use those awful buy 10 get 1 free cards crap, but just recognizing a
> regular and once a year saying "This one is on me" can make a customer
> feel like a human being.
>
> C
In France, better restaurants know their frequent customers and often will
offer a glass of Champagne or other aperitif when they show up. I haven't
seen this practice very often in the USA (although I've experienced in in
Vancouver Canada in one particular restaurant). This sort of thing makes
regular customers feel special and at fairly minimal cost helps to retain
customers.
ken
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 19:52:38
From: Danny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Cordo wrote:
-snip-
> I'm not saying you give free coffee every time or something. And please
> don't use those awful buy 10 get 1 free cards crap, but just recognizing a
> regular and once a year saying "This one is on me" can make a customer feel
> like a human being.
>
We know all our regulars drinks, and often have them ready as we see
them walk up the street. We know the infirm, and take their drinks to
the table, we know those who have a shakey hand and prefer a small
cappa in a large cup to avoid embarrasing spills. As you note,
impromptu loyalty rewards are far more effective than 10/1 free cards.
I make a point now of having sufficient staff that I can leave the
trailer and share a joke or hear family health problems :) with
regulars, and those I want to encourage to be regulars.
I can't believe aother businesses can't train staff to behave this
way. In the UK we have (had) a tradition of "the local", the pub you
frequented, where everyone knew everyone's name, and "usual, sir" was
the greeting. If Cheers! is anything to go by, you (in the US) have
them too. These days, even when the staff haven't changed, you'd be
lucky to be greeted as a regular anywhere.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 09:09:15
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>> I'm not saying you give free coffee every time or something. And please
>> don't use those awful buy 10 get 1 free cards crap, but just recognizing
>> a regular and once a year saying "This one is on me" can make a customer
>> feel like a human being.
>>
>
> We know all our regulars drinks, and often have them ready as we see them
> walk up the street. We know the infirm, and take their drinks to the
> table, we know those who have a shakey hand and prefer a small cappa in a
> large cup to avoid embarrasing spills. As you note, impromptu loyalty
> rewards are far more effective than 10/1 free cards.
>
> I make a point now of having sufficient staff that I can leave the trailer
> and share a joke or hear family health problems :) with regulars, and
> those I want to encourage to be regulars.
>
I have often said that the buy 20 get 1/2 free cards are only good for
infrequent and new customer - existing loyal customers should be known to
staff and looked after accordingly. They will, I woudl suggest, appreciate
the odd "free" round more without their loyalty card than if they keep
having to use a stamp cad thingy whatsit.
I have a cafe I frequent to much, when they are busy, I have often finished
my drink before I get to the counter to order it, and sometimes they say
don't worry about it, that works for me.
When we ran our cafe, we were more blunt - if you are regular we will know
you, we will look after you, and for the regulars it worked. They still come
round for coffee, but we don't charge them at all now, not sure what the
business model is there, but hey most are friends now anyway :)
Brent
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 12:02:40
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
> them too. These days, even when the staff haven't changed, you'd be lucky
> to be greeted as a regular anywhere.
I've been involved with synagogues all my life. I went to one in Boston
about 20 times (and few people go to services) and the rabbi came up to me
and said, "So welcome, this is your first time?" I went about five times to
one local to me now and didn't get greeted. I tried yet another one
recently and I went three times and didn't get greeted during the repast
afterward until finally someone came up and greeted me and talked to me for
about ten minutes. Where are you from? How are you doing? Nice to see
you.
I was getting all warm and fuzzy until he asked me if I was a homeowner and
gave me his real estate business card.
What I have found serving on volunteer boards and such of synagogues and
Jewish insitutions is that we spend half the time bemoaning lack of new
members, but when new "customers" show up, little effort is made to learn
their name and say "Hi" to them the second time they come in. Really really
smart rabbis and ministers take a memory-course and can pull names out of
their heads. Sounds simple, but it's kinda' nice to have someone remember
their name. Not practical perhaps in many coffee shops, but the occasional
recognition somehow that you know I've come here a few times already [like
you said, remembering the drink I always order!] can make a huge difference.
As Hegel said, the most basic human need is to be recognized/acknowledged.
C
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 19:01:13
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006, Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> These days, even when the staff haven't changed, you'd be
> lucky to be greeted as a regular anywhere.
My local chippie. I'm enough of a regular that I get greeted by the
owner when we meet out in the town as well. Plus, if I go in with my
daughter, she gets greeted and talked to, and if I go in without, she
gets asked after. Not sure this says good things about my diet, but
it does encourage repeat custom.
regards, Ian SMith
--
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 13:24:23
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 05:23:42 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
>I deal with the ever increasing competition by maintaining my
>standards, improving customer service and sticking with the
>traditional Italian espresso menu. I rarely get asked for anything
>Starbucks-like, since I train my customers to get addicted to proper
>coffee. I disagree with Jack in that respect - loyalty is everything
>here. I can comfortably keep my prices below *$ and give a quality
>product.
I knew on eoperation that charged slightly more than Starbucks for
their coffee and when asked about it, tells the customer that he
offers better coffee than does the mermaid. If they don't believe it,
he invited them to go down the block and bring back a cup of Starbucks
coffee - no additives, and then "cupped" it against his telling the
customer that if they like Starbies coffee better, he wouldl pay for
both cups. Never saw him have to pay.
jim
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 22:23:03
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com >, on Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600,
bernie digman wrote:
>
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks.
> They purchased a lot down the street from the store and
> will begin building in short time.
Is "down the street" like 100 yards, 1000 yards,
a mile, or what?
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 11:24:30
From: bernie digman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Steve Ackman wrote:
> In <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com>, on Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600,
> bernie digman wrote:
>
>>Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks.
>>They purchased a lot down the street from the store and
>>will begin building in short time.
>
>
> Is "down the street" like 100 yards, 1000 yards,
> a mile, or what?
>
Two traffic lights or about 2 minutes. We will both be across from the NMSU campus.
Bernie
|
| | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 11:41:59
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In <44b681d1$1@nntp.zianet.com >, on Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:24:30 -0600,
bernie digman wrote:
> Steve Ackman wrote:
>> In <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com>, on Wed, 12 Jul 2006 08:47:53 -0600,
>> bernie digman wrote:
>>
>>>Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks.
>>>They purchased a lot down the street from the store and
>>>will begin building in short time.
>>
>>
>> Is "down the street" like 100 yards, 1000 yards,
>> a mile, or what?
>>
>
>
> Two traffic lights or about 2 minutes. We will both be across from the NMSU campus.
> Bernie
Hard to say whether that's a "good" distance. If it
was within line of sight, they might actually bring you
business. As it is, I would think many students
(especially those on foot) would likely go to whichever
place they happen to be closer to.
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 19:47:12
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
I'm betting on Bernie; odds look about 12:1 to me.
ken
"bernie digman" <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote in message
news:44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com...
>
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased a
> lot down the street from the store and will begin building in short time.
> This will be the third in a town of 80,000. With the lowest demographics
> of all but Mississippi. We now have a good drive-through and a large
> enough menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on excellent
> coffee. Excellent coffee will always lose out to convienience in America.
> I'm thinking of adding a second window and a fast-order board in the lane
> to speed things up as much as possible. I figure if I match the speed of a
> national chain and exceed their quality I'll not lose too much ground. I
> sure as heck don't kid myself that I'll be competing on a level field, but
> by moving slightly to a different field we should be doing okay. I'm a
> firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke
> underestimating the taste of the American public.
> Bernie
>
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 18:36:15
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative is
> to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
> beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to goodness,
> it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
> you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
Starbucks's game is not selling coffee. It's selling milk flavoured
with coffee. ;)
But seriously, their game is selling an image, then selling milk
disguised as coffee, then selling the McDonalds experience - a latte
next to Bernie should taste exactly the same as a latte sold at a
Starbucks in Des Moines.
Don't bother competing on any of these things - the success to being
more successful than the neighbourhood starbucks is, more and more
these days, just having a quality product and focusing on things you're
good at, not trying to be a catch all, be all, one stop shop.
In Vancouver, three top cafes come to mind with a Starbucks less than
25 meters away: Continental, JJ on Main, and Cafe Sete. Dunno much
about the third place, but the first two? ALWAYS have better traffic
and more sales than the Starbucks. Always. In the case of the JJ, they
came later. In the case of the Continental, Starbucks came later. They
beat Starbucks by focusing on a few core things they sell, and
producing a superior quality beverage - even the milk-laden ones. They
don't compete by offering a "macchiato" the Starbucks way - they both
sell the traditional version only.
Mark
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 02:33:04
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In article <1152754575.072403.28940@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
Coffeekid@gmail.com says...
>
> Jack Denver wrote:
> > Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative is
> > to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
> > beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to goodness,
> > it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
> > you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>
> Starbucks's game is not selling coffee. It's selling milk flavoured
> with coffee. ;)
>
> But seriously, their game is selling an image, then selling milk
> disguised as coffee, then selling the McDonalds experience - a latte
> next to Bernie should taste exactly the same as a latte sold at a
> Starbucks in Des Moines.
>
> Don't bother competing on any of these things - the success to being
> more successful than the neighbourhood starbucks is, more and more
> these days, just having a quality product and focusing on things you're
> good at, not trying to be a catch all, be all, one stop shop.
>
> In Vancouver, three top cafes come to mind with a Starbucks less than
> 25 meters away: Continental, JJ on Main, and Cafe Sete. Dunno much
> about the third place, but the first two? ALWAYS have better traffic
> and more sales than the Starbucks. Always. In the case of the JJ, they
> came later. In the case of the Continental, Starbucks came later. They
> beat Starbucks by focusing on a few core things they sell, and
> producing a superior quality beverage - even the milk-laden ones. They
> don't compete by offering a "macchiato" the Starbucks way - they both
> sell the traditional version only.
>
In North Vancouver, there's a Starbucks ~ 100 feet from another coffee
shop -- Delaney's. Their coffee is better than Starbucks but far from
great, their food menu has more variety than Starbucks (including
pannini grilled on the premises), and they are consistently more crowded
than Starbucks. Delaney's was there first, and Starbucks didn't appear
to make even a slight dent in their business. If anything, the presence
of two "cool" coffee shops so close together has helped Delaney's. Go
figure.
Rick
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 23:48:31
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 02:33:04 GMT, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
<rickk@letterectomyTELUS.net > wrote:
>In article <1152754575.072403.28940@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>Coffeekid@gmail.com says...
>>
>> Jack Denver wrote:
>> > Since "their game" is selling coffee and so is Bernie's, the alternative is
>> > to sell burritos or something. Their game is exactly what you he has to
>> > beat them at if he wants to stay in the coffee business. Honest to goodness,
>> > it's not impossible as long as you are smart and willing to work hard. If
>> > you are dumb and/or lazy, they will eat your lunch for sure.
>>
>> Starbucks's game is not selling coffee. It's selling milk flavoured
>> with coffee. ;)
>>
>> But seriously, their game is selling an image, then selling milk
>> disguised as coffee, then selling the McDonalds experience - a latte
>> next to Bernie should taste exactly the same as a latte sold at a
>> Starbucks in Des Moines.
>>
>> Don't bother competing on any of these things - the success to being
>> more successful than the neighbourhood starbucks is, more and more
>> these days, just having a quality product and focusing on things you're
>> good at, not trying to be a catch all, be all, one stop shop.
>>
>> In Vancouver, three top cafes come to mind with a Starbucks less than
>> 25 meters away: Continental, JJ on Main, and Cafe Sete. Dunno much
>> about the third place, but the first two? ALWAYS have better traffic
>> and more sales than the Starbucks. Always. In the case of the JJ, they
>> came later. In the case of the Continental, Starbucks came later. They
>> beat Starbucks by focusing on a few core things they sell, and
>> producing a superior quality beverage - even the milk-laden ones. They
>> don't compete by offering a "macchiato" the Starbucks way - they both
>> sell the traditional version only.
>>
>In North Vancouver, there's a Starbucks ~ 100 feet from another coffee
>shop -- Delaney's. Their coffee is better than Starbucks but far from
>great, their food menu has more variety than Starbucks (including
>pannini grilled on the premises), and they are consistently more crowded
>than Starbucks. Delaney's was there first, and Starbucks didn't appear
>to make even a slight dent in their business. If anything, the presence
>of two "cool" coffee shops so close together has helped Delaney's. Go
>figure.
>
>Rick
That IS what happens with successful nicheship.
jim
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 14:39:18
From:
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
>>. Forget about loyalty - it doesn't exist. Imagine
> that you are a stranger coming into town and wandering down the street -
> which place would you stop at?
>
I go out of my way to avoid starbucks and their burned bitter coffee. A
good local business would be a nice option
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 10:23:26
From: daveb
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
I'm sure I speak for all of us in sending you encouraging thoughts and
wishes......
Dave "v68jui" B
bernie digman wrote:
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased a lot down the street from
> the store and will begin building in short time. This will be the third in a town of 80,000. With
> the lowest demographics of all but Mississippi. We now have a good drive-through and a large enough
> menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on excellent coffee. Excellent coffee will always
> lose out to convienience in America. I'm thinking of adding a second window and a fast-order board
> in the lane to speed things up as much as possible. I figure if I match the speed of a national
> chain and exceed their quality I'll not lose too much ground. I sure as heck don't kid myself that
> I'll be competing on a level field, but by moving slightly to a different field we should be doing
> okay. I'm a firm believer in the old adage that nobody has ever gone broke underestimating the taste
> of the American public.
> Bernie
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 09:24:37
From: butch burton
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
ensenadajim wrote:
>
> Their game is to be your second living room, your entertyainment
> center (currently CDs, a Starbucks music channel anyone with (XM or
> Sirius) a satellite can pick up, soon to be a DVD company and IN the
> movie business as well via placement and branding.
>
> They are a beverage, food, entertainment company at the least.
Agree with the above - in my small town they converted a "dead" gas
station into a starby's. They have couches, overstuffed chairs and a
gas fireplace. This is an extension to people's living room and it
works. The appearance of the place was softened with carpeting and
wood and some tile in the serving area - yes they do far more than sell
overroasted coffee and tasteless pastry - got to give that orange
thingy a try.
Anyway good luck Bernie - hey with all of this high powered consultant
power - you will increase your business. said without a smiley.
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 07:57:34
From: Doug Cadmus
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
bernie digman wrote:
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased a lot down the street from
> the store and will begin building in short time. This will be the third in a town of 80,000. With
> the lowest demographics of all but Mississippi. We now have a good drive-through and a large enough
> menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on excellent coffee. Excellent coffee will always
> lose out to convienience in America.
Well, Bernie, here's your opportunity to discover just how great you
and your staff can be... ;)
You're right about the convenience thing... we're all of us lazy boobs,
and not inclined to walk across the street for another version of the
same thing that's staring us in the face on the corner we're on. So
there's a reasonable strategy: never let the customer you're fighting
for think for a moment that your product is the same thing as
Starbucks'. It's hard, 'cause there's probably nobody who's made a
product of "the coffee shop experience" better than those folks...
still I suspect you can take advantage of that.
I suspect you also have a good handle on your coffee. I won't get into
that... you know that game. I suspect you also have a handle on the
*community* aspect of your store... like, your business is a real part
of the community, and the community knows it. Right?
Meanwhile, review everything else:
Take a good, hard, appraising look at your storefront --
Does it look inviting from the street? Does it stand out? Is there any
ambiguity about what kind of experience you might find inside its
doors? Is there something important about your shop that folks wouldn't
know just from passing by?
Now take a good look inside --
What's the first thing you see when you walk in the store? Is that what
you want your customer to see? What does it say about what you have to
offer?
Where's your menu? Is it *organized*? Can it be read from 12 feet away?
By someone with poor vision?
Is it clear where in the store you go to order? And to pick up your
order? Can you identify those spots from the front door?
Here's a big one: is it *clean*? No matter the decor -- from southwest
casual grunge to mid-century modern -- it it *clean*? Is there a little
sparkle of shiny equipment here and there, or a layer of dust?
Take a look at your staff, both the folks behind the counter and
everybody else you might see along the way --
Are they smiling? I don't mean that plastic
we-must-show-our-teeth-because-it's-policy kind of thing... are they
having a good time? Do they enjoy what they do? 'Cause whatever the
attitude of your staff, it'll prove infectious... happy staff, happy
customers.
Are you greeted? Does somebody welcome you to the shop? Know your name,
already? Offer theirs? (Of course *you* are, you own the place. Try
this with a mystery shopper.)
Does your staff offer suggestions? Or do they naval gaze while your
customer spends 10 minutes gazing bleary-eyed at the menu?
Are *they* clean? Presentable? Confident? Interested? Interesting?
Finally, my pet peeve --
Take a good look at your bathroom... I won't get into details except to
say, are you *impressed* by it?
Yeah -- this is most all of it surface stuff. But it matters, 'cause
it's *all* that a huge corporate coffee shop has. Make par on the
surface stuff. Birdie the community. Eagle the coffee.
-deCadmus
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:26:43
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Yes - all good stuff. This is what I was talking about - whatever your
"niche" is, almost everyone likes a clean store, clean bathrooms, good
service , etc. Unless maybe you are going for the masochist niche, which
some place in NY seem to go for - if the staff treats you like dirt , this
just proves how "cool" they are.
"Doug Cadmus" <decadmus@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1152802654.447681.219700@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> bernie digman wrote:
>> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased
>> a lot down the street from
>> the store and will begin building in short time. This will be the third
>> in a town of 80,000. With
>> the lowest demographics of all but Mississippi. We now have a good
>> drive-through and a large enough
>> menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on excellent coffee.
>> Excellent coffee will always
>> lose out to convienience in America.
>
> Well, Bernie, here's your opportunity to discover just how great you
> and your staff can be... ;)
>
> You're right about the convenience thing... we're all of us lazy boobs,
> and not inclined to walk across the street for another version of the
> same thing that's staring us in the face on the corner we're on. So
> there's a reasonable strategy: never let the customer you're fighting
> for think for a moment that your product is the same thing as
> Starbucks'. It's hard, 'cause there's probably nobody who's made a
> product of "the coffee shop experience" better than those folks...
> still I suspect you can take advantage of that.
>
> I suspect you also have a good handle on your coffee. I won't get into
> that... you know that game. I suspect you also have a handle on the
> *community* aspect of your store... like, your business is a real part
> of the community, and the community knows it. Right?
>
> Meanwhile, review everything else:
>
> Take a good, hard, appraising look at your storefront --
>
> Does it look inviting from the street? Does it stand out? Is there any
> ambiguity about what kind of experience you might find inside its
> doors? Is there something important about your shop that folks wouldn't
> know just from passing by?
>
> Now take a good look inside --
>
> What's the first thing you see when you walk in the store? Is that what
> you want your customer to see? What does it say about what you have to
> offer?
>
> Where's your menu? Is it *organized*? Can it be read from 12 feet away?
> By someone with poor vision?
>
> Is it clear where in the store you go to order? And to pick up your
> order? Can you identify those spots from the front door?
>
> Here's a big one: is it *clean*? No matter the decor -- from southwest
> casual grunge to mid-century modern -- it it *clean*? Is there a little
> sparkle of shiny equipment here and there, or a layer of dust?
>
> Take a look at your staff, both the folks behind the counter and
> everybody else you might see along the way --
>
> Are they smiling? I don't mean that plastic
> we-must-show-our-teeth-because-it's-policy kind of thing... are they
> having a good time? Do they enjoy what they do? 'Cause whatever the
> attitude of your staff, it'll prove infectious... happy staff, happy
> customers.
>
> Are you greeted? Does somebody welcome you to the shop? Know your name,
> already? Offer theirs? (Of course *you* are, you own the place. Try
> this with a mystery shopper.)
>
> Does your staff offer suggestions? Or do they naval gaze while your
> customer spends 10 minutes gazing bleary-eyed at the menu?
>
> Are *they* clean? Presentable? Confident? Interested? Interesting?
>
> Finally, my pet peeve --
>
> Take a good look at your bathroom... I won't get into details except to
> say, are you *impressed* by it?
>
> Yeah -- this is most all of it surface stuff. But it matters, 'cause
> it's *all* that a huge corporate coffee shop has. Make par on the
> surface stuff. Birdie the community. Eagle the coffee.
>
> -deCadmus
>
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 20:34:31
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:p5-dnSamLeV-nSrZnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Yes - all good stuff. This is what I was talking about - whatever your
> "niche" is, almost everyone likes a clean store, clean bathrooms, good
> service , etc. Unless maybe you are going for the masochist niche, which
> some place in NY seem to go for - if the staff treats you like dirt , this
> just proves how "cool" they are.
>
Yes it's all good stuff but I'm not sure exactly how much each of these
things on its own contributes to your customer base.
The example I quoted in another post in this thread of my closest cafe goes
against almost all of these recs but still does better, albeit without my
patronage, than all it's neighbors. OTOH if the neighbors of that place
ignored all these things they might not be so fortunate.
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 17:17:15
From: Neal Reid
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In article
<1152802654.447681.219700@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"Doug Cadmus" <decadmus@gmail.com > wrote:
...
> I suspect you also have a good handle on your coffee. I won't get into
> that... you know that game. I suspect you also have a handle on the
> *community* aspect of your store... like, your business is a real part
> of the community, and the community knows it. Right?
I've been to Bernie's, I've been to Starbuck's - I felt welcomed
at Bernie's...
> Meanwhile, review everything else:
>
> Take a good, hard, appraising look at your storefront --
>
> Does it look inviting from the street? Does it stand out? Is there any
> ambiguity about what kind of experience you might find inside its
> doors? Is there something important about your shop that folks wouldn't
> know just from passing by?
Oddly, no. I went to Los Cruces explicitly to visit the place -
and had a hard time finding it. End unit in a mall; hard to spot
from the road.
> Now take a good look inside --
>
> What's the first thing you see when you walk in the store? Is that what
> you want your customer to see? What does it say about what you have to
> offer?
Sure looked like a specialty coffee place to me! I knew I'd found
where I was looking for the moment before I opened the door - nice
tables outside!
> Where's your menu? Is it *organized*? Can it be read from 12 feet away?
> By someone with poor vision?
Well, no. I DO have poor eyesight and found the blackboard hard to
read - but everybody around me seemed to know what they wanted. I
could just listen...
> Is it clear where in the store you go to order? And to pick up your
> order? Can you identify those spots from the front door?
Pas de problem - just join the line :-) The cash is clear
> Here's a big one: is it *clean*? No matter the decor -- from southwest
> casual grunge to mid-century modern -- it it *clean*? Is there a little
> sparkle of shiny equipment here and there, or a layer of dust?
Certainly was
> Take a look at your staff, both the folks behind the counter and
> everybody else you might see along the way --
>
> Are they smiling? I don't mean that plastic
> we-must-show-our-teeth-because-it's-policy kind of thing... are they
> having a good time? Do they enjoy what they do? 'Cause whatever the
> attitude of your staff, it'll prove infectious... happy staff, happy
> customers.
Staff were a high point. Everybody was cheery.
> Are you greeted? Does somebody welcome you to the shop? Know your name,
> already? Offer theirs? (Of course *you* are, you own the place. Try
> this with a mystery shopper.)
>
> Does your staff offer suggestions? Or do they naval gaze while your
> customer spends 10 minutes gazing bleary-eyed at the menu?
Cheerfully; on hearing I was an altie, I was immediately offered a
series of cups of all the available coffees to taste - matched one
for one by the staffer who then discussed the flavours
meaningfully.
And everyone I talked to made it clear they LIKED working there.
It was more than just a job.
--
M for N in address to mail reply
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 19:54:24
From: Danny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Doug Cadmus wrote:
> bernie digman wrote:
>
>>Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks. They purchased a lot down the street from
>>the store and will begin building in short time. This will be the third in a town of 80,000. With
>>the lowest demographics of all but Mississippi. We now have a good drive-through and a large enough
>>menu so we are moving away from just concentrating on excellent coffee. Excellent coffee will always
>>lose out to convienience in America.
>
>
> Well, Bernie, here's your opportunity to discover just how great you
> and your staff can be... ;)
>
> You're right about the convenience thing... we're all of us lazy boobs,
> and not inclined to walk across the street for another version of the
> same thing that's staring us in the face on the corner we're on. So
> there's a reasonable strategy: never let the customer you're fighting
> for think for a moment that your product is the same thing as
> Starbucks'. It's hard, 'cause there's probably nobody who's made a
> product of "the coffee shop experience" better than those folks...
> still I suspect you can take advantage of that.
>
> I suspect you also have a good handle on your coffee. I won't get into
> that... you know that game. I suspect you also have a handle on the
> *community* aspect of your store... like, your business is a real part
> of the community, and the community knows it. Right?
>
> Meanwhile, review everything else:
>
> Take a good, hard, appraising look at your storefront --
>
> Does it look inviting from the street? Does it stand out? Is there any
> ambiguity about what kind of experience you might find inside its
> doors? Is there something important about your shop that folks wouldn't
> know just from passing by?
>
> Now take a good look inside --
>
> What's the first thing you see when you walk in the store? Is that what
> you want your customer to see? What does it say about what you have to
> offer?
>
> Where's your menu? Is it *organized*? Can it be read from 12 feet away?
> By someone with poor vision?
>
> Is it clear where in the store you go to order? And to pick up your
> order? Can you identify those spots from the front door?
>
> Here's a big one: is it *clean*? No matter the decor -- from southwest
> casual grunge to mid-century modern -- it it *clean*? Is there a little
> sparkle of shiny equipment here and there, or a layer of dust?
>
> Take a look at your staff, both the folks behind the counter and
> everybody else you might see along the way --
>
> Are they smiling? I don't mean that plastic
> we-must-show-our-teeth-because-it's-policy kind of thing... are they
> having a good time? Do they enjoy what they do? 'Cause whatever the
> attitude of your staff, it'll prove infectious... happy staff, happy
> customers.
>
> Are you greeted? Does somebody welcome you to the shop? Know your name,
> already? Offer theirs? (Of course *you* are, you own the place. Try
> this with a mystery shopper.)
>
> Does your staff offer suggestions? Or do they naval gaze while your
> customer spends 10 minutes gazing bleary-eyed at the menu?
>
> Are *they* clean? Presentable? Confident? Interested? Interesting?
>
> Finally, my pet peeve --
>
> Take a good look at your bathroom... I won't get into details except to
> say, are you *impressed* by it?
>
> Yeah -- this is most all of it surface stuff. But it matters, 'cause
> it's *all* that a huge corporate coffee shop has. Make par on the
> surface stuff. Birdie the community. Eagle the coffee.
>
> -deCadmus
>
Agree with all the above.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 11:48:00
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
> there's a reasonable strategy: never let the customer you're fighting
> for think for a moment that your product is the same thing as
> Starbucks'.
That said, I think snobbery should be avoided about "real" espresso drinks.
I always liked Intelligentsia's practice of having "American" and
"Traditional" cappuccinos on the menu board. I think that could be expanded
so people can get the drink they expect, even if they expect a product like
what they get at Starbucks. Or one could add a word like "Mocha
(unsweetened)." For years I went to Cafe Torrefazione in Palo Alto and got
their awesome (unsweetened -- espresso, a dollop a foam, and some Girardelli
shavings) mocha. So last week I got a mocha at an independent cafe in
Henderson, NV, and I choked on how sweet it was (and I don't mind sweet
things normally). My gf pointed to a display behind me as I had to throw
out the 3 dollar drink -- it was of the "Mocha" powder, to make your own at
home, presweetened.
That was a harmless mistake, but I just don't think there's a problem with
using the menu board to meet the expectations of people who have bought
drinks with similar names at all sorts of places.
C
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 06:25:46
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Bernie, I don't know jack about marketing coffee or anything else. I
just wish you well.
Will.
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 00:12:13
From: notbob
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On 2006-07-12, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote:
>
> Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks.
"From the beginning of time, man has looked at the heavens and firmly
believed that the end of the universe ends out in space. It's not
true. The end of the universe happens to be in the United States. I
have seen it. And, oddly enough, it's in Houston, Texas...I know, I
was shocked too... I left the comedy club there and walked down the
street. On one corner, there was a Starbucks. And across the street
from that Starbucks, in the exact same building as that Starbucks, was
a Starbucks. At first I thought the sun was playing tricks on my eyes.
But, no. There was a Starbucks across from a Starbucks. And that, my
friends, is the end of the universe. People have said to me, 'how do
you know?' And I say, 'go there. Stand between those two Starbucks and
look at your watch. Time stands still.' And if you turn this way, and
look at just this Starbucks, immediately you think, 'You know, There
cannot possibly be a Starbucks behind me. Nobody would have been that
stupid, to have built a Starbucks across from a Starbucks. And if
there was a just and loving God, he wouldn't allow that kind of shit
to go down.' So you turn slowly, thinking, 'well, I'll see a Gap, or a
Denny's, maybe even a Mobil Station... BUT THERE'S A STARBUCKS!'"
-- The End of the Universe, Lewis Black
nb
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| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 20:52:32
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Brent wrote:
>
> Starbucks is in the business of selling coffee. It is still the core of what
> it is they do - it's the biggest category of sales etc etc etc.
And 'll say it again :) - Starbucks is in the business of selling milk,
that just happens to be flavoured by coffee.
People should take a more closer look at Starbucks' milk operations
some times. It's beyond scary.
Mark
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Date: 14 Jul 2006 01:19:54
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
> People should take a more closer look at Starbucks' milk operations
> some times. It's beyond scary.
What do you mean? Is this an editorial observation about them putting a lot
of milk in their stuff, or is there something going on behind the scenes
with how they get their milk?
C
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| | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 09:49:46
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
They pay the cows less than minimum wage and do not offer them health
insurance. There are cow sweatshops in Vietnam where underage cows are
employed by Starbucks contractors - they have to sit at their milking
machines 12 hrs/ day and are paid only pennies/ quart.
"Cordo" <cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:e97k38$qav$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
>
>> People should take a more closer look at Starbucks' milk operations
>> some times. It's beyond scary.
>
> What do you mean? Is this an editorial observation about them putting a
> lot of milk in their stuff, or is there something going on behind the
> scenes with how they get their milk?
>
> C
>
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| | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 13:30:02
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> There are cow sweatshops in Vietnam where underage cows are
> employed by Starbucks contractors - they have to sit at their milking
> machines 12 hrs/ day and are paid only pennies/ quart.
Hmmm...I didn't think you could get any milk from an underage cow...even if
you milk her for all she's worth. :-)
--
-Andy S.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
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Date: 15 Jul 2006 11:00:29
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
I've heard that some of the cows employed in Starbucks at so called "dairy
farms" are as young as two years old - shocking! They never get even a
single day of vacation.
"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:u56ug.24020$O35.5766@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> There are cow sweatshops in Vietnam where underage cows are employed by
>> Starbucks contractors - they have to sit at their milking machines 12
>> hrs/ day and are paid only pennies/ quart.
>
> Hmmm...I didn't think you could get any milk from an underage cow...even
> if you milk her for all she's worth. :-)
> --
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
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| | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 17:47:40
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
> Brent wrote:
>
>>
>> Starbucks is in the business of selling coffee. It is still the core of
>> what
>> it is they do - it's the biggest category of sales etc etc etc.
>
> And 'll say it again :) - Starbucks is in the business of selling milk,
> that just happens to be flavoured by coffee.
>
> People should take a more closer look at Starbucks' milk operations
> some times. It's beyond scary.
>
> Mark
>
Oh, now that I will agree with :)
Brent
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 21:28:24
From: Arthur Shapiro
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In article <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com >, bernie digman <bdigman@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>Inevitably my neighborhood has been invaded by Starbucks.
May an ordinary consumer offer sympathy and hope?
A year or so ago, $B opened up a store near me - the third within trivial
walking distance. Now I do appreciate their frappuccinos after a hard morning
of cycling, even if their coffees, to put it politely, suck. The thing about
this new one is that it is five doors down from one of the few remaining local
mom-and-pop stores, an excellent shop called the Chocolate Forest (who also
sell a lot of handmade chocolates and the like.) The landlord justified the
proximity by pointing out that $B is a pure coffee shop and the Chocolate
Forest sells a lot of non-coffee stuff. Furthermore, the $B location is
clearly visible from two traffic arteries, being right on a corner, while the
Chocolate Forest is just about blocked from road view by a separate building.
I personally will visit that Starbucks, as attractive as it is (it's a nice
one) only on Sunday or on holidays, when the Chocolate Forest is closed. I
suspect most other folks wouldn't have such scruples.
To my pleasant surprise, Starbucks hasn't destroyed the Chocolate Forest.
Yeah, they get a lot of drive up quick in-and-out traffic. But from my
primarily weekend-afternoon observations, the Forest is doing reasonably well.
Their coffee is clearly superior to Starbucks - hell, Yuban is probably
superior to Starbucks - but I'm not sure most consumers have the subtlety of
palette to recognize that blatant reality.
I'll tell you a good coffee house differentiator for me aside from quality:
electric outlets and, less important but nice, a free internet connection. I
like to do the NY Times crossword over my blended mocha, and I prefer to have
the laptop plugged in to get better brightness - AC is brighter than battery
to save battery power. And I'm not going to pay big bucks for an internet
connection to TMobile at a Starbucks - the answer key is posted at 3 pm on
weekends and, obviously, I want to ensure that I solved the puzzle correctly
by connecting to the NY Times web site and getting the key. There are coffee
shops I won't visit on weekends because of the absence of electric outlets.
Those shops get reserved for workdays when I happen to have a day off and
don't particularly want to use the laptop. So a penny's worth of electricity
costs them a high-profit $4 or $4.25 blended mocha.
Good luck!
Art
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| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:23:09
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Free internet sounds good, but not too long ago I visited a coffee shop and
the only customers there were a couple of computer nerds clicking away on
their laptops. It didn't look like they were buying much and they didn't add
to the atmosphere of the place so it's hard to say the free internet was
really helping the shop.
There are schemes for "semi-free" internet - each $1 of purchase gets you a
code for X minutes of connection, etc.
In a college area, there are probably free hotspots all over the place by
now so it's not a big draw. It's an OK idea but not a home run.
"Arthur Shapiro" <art.shapiro@unisys.com > wrote in message
news:e96dto$1ejt$1@si05.rsvl.unisys.com...
> In article <44b50b9b$1@nntp.zianet.com>, bernie digman
> <bdigman@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> I'll tell you a good coffee house differentiator for me aside from
> quality:
> electric outlets and, less important but nice, a free internet connection.
> I
> like to do the NY Times crossword over my blended mocha, and I prefer to
> have
> the laptop plugged in to get better brightness - AC is brighter than
> battery
> to save battery power. And I'm not going to pay big bucks for an internet
> connection to TMobile at a Starbucks - the answer key is posted at 3 pm on
> weekends and, obviously, I want to ensure that I solved the puzzle
> correctly
> by connecting to the NY Times web site and getting the key. There are
> coffee
> shops I won't visit on weekends because of the absence of electric
> outlets.
> Those shops get reserved for workdays when I happen to have a day off and
> don't particularly want to use the laptop. So a penny's worth of
> electricity
> costs them a high-profit $4 or $4.25 blended mocha.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Art
>
|
| | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 20:36:43
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:Pc6dnXzex_uTnSrZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Free internet sounds good, but not too long ago I visited a coffee shop
> and the only customers there were a couple of computer nerds clicking away
> on their laptops. It didn't look like they were buying much and they
> didn't add to the atmosphere of the place so it's hard to say the free
> internet was really helping the shop.
>
> There are schemes for "semi-free" internet - each $1 of purchase gets you
> a code for X minutes of connection, etc.
>
> In a college area, there are probably free hotspots all over the place by
> now so it's not a big draw. It's an OK idea but not a home run.
>
I think it is most useful in areas that get a lot of tourist visits and/or
where internet service is very expensive, like in Europe. I still frequent
the gawd-awful Lyon France McDonalds because they have free WiFi which I
utilize when I'm there attending language school and there aren't any
comparable deals there for someone like me. But in N. America, where
internet service is not expensive, it is probably only a draw in places
which get a lot of tourists or perhaps where the place is trying to
cultivate an image as a place to hang out. Some of the Seattle cafes are
like that; Zoka springs immediately to mind.
There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for the
day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many hours on
end. Perhaps a card with a code that is good for 1 hours usage, at the
cashier, would be the way to go. You wouldn't necessarily have to buy
anything to get the card, but most people would feel kinda silly just going
to the cashier and asking for a card, so this will insure that they probably
would buy something every hour or so, or leave.
ken
|
| | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:46:36
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:36:43 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
>There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for the
>day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many hours on
>end.
Incredibly uncomfortable seats
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:50:34
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:es4eb29dcdbrm7g4afu5etant6go989cau@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:36:43 -0600, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for the
>>day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many hours on
>>end.
>
> Incredibly uncomfortable seats
when I was in college in LA during the last ice age, one of my psychology
classes used a local chain as a case study in how to get customers in and to
leave promptly after consuming what they'd bought. The chain was called
"House of Pies" and they had conced some sort of interior decor, based
largely on a discordant color scheme that was supposed to get you out the
door quickly.
On my one or two encounters with this chain it was the food that made me
want to leave, however.
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 15 Jul 2006 12:14:56
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 22:50:34 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net> wrote in message
>news:es4eb29dcdbrm7g4afu5etant6go989cau@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:36:43 -0600, "Ken Fox"
>> <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for the
>>>day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many hours on
>>>end.
>>
>> Incredibly uncomfortable seats
>
>when I was in college in LA during the last ice age, one of my psychology
>classes used a local chain as a case study in how to get customers in and to
>leave promptly after consuming what they'd bought. The chain was called
>"House of Pies" and they had conced some sort of interior decor, based
>largely on a discordant color scheme that was supposed to get you out the
>door quickly.
>
>On my one or two encounters with this chain it was the food that made me
>want to leave, however.
>
Starbucks original chairs were thusly designed - to make it
uncomfortable to sit in them for more than 30 minutes.
jim
|
| | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 15:22:29
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Gee if we still had the cafe open, and I could be bothered installing wi-fi
thats not a stupid approach... must pass that on to a customer looking at
that sort of thing!
Brent
> There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for the
> day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many hours on
> end. Perhaps a card with a code that is good for 1 hours usage, at the
> cashier, would be the way to go. You wouldn't necessarily have to buy
> anything to get the card, but most people would feel kinda silly just
> going to the cashier and asking for a card, so this will insure that they
> probably would buy something every hour or so, or leave.
>
> ken
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 21:19:28
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4hog2lFj07aU1@individual.net...
> Gee if we still had the cafe open, and I could be bothered installing
> wi-fi thats not a stupid approach... must pass that on to a customer
> looking at that sort of thing!
>
> Brent
you closed the cafe?
ken
>
>> There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for
>> the day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many
>> hours on end. Perhaps a card with a code that is good for 1 hours usage,
>> at the cashier, would be the way to go. You wouldn't necessarily have to
>> buy anything to get the card, but most people would feel kinda silly just
>> going to the cashier and asking for a card, so this will insure that they
>> probably would buy something every hour or so, or leave.
>>
>> ken
>>
>>
>
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 17:48:33
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Yes - spot the lack of sadness in my voice - the roasting is taking up the
space, but feel free to drop in for a coffee!
Brent
>
> you closed the cafe?
>
> ken
>>
>>> There has to be a mechanism to make sure that people aren't coming for
>>> the day and buying one drink, in order to use the free WiFi for many
>>> hours on end. Perhaps a card with a code that is good for 1 hours
>>> usage, at the cashier, would be the way to go. You wouldn't necessarily
>>> have to buy anything to get the card, but most people would feel kinda
>>> silly just going to the cashier and asking for a card, so this will
>>> insure that they probably would buy something every hour or so, or
>>> leave.
>>>
>>> ken
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
| |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 13:48:58
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
> want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee ...
Jack, you know I rarely find anything to argue with you on, but this is
one of those things.
Starbucks has long stopped being in the business of "selling coffee".
The shortest form is, they are selling an image, a lifestyle. Coffee
just happens to be part of it.
Because that's what Starbucks is, it would be a mistake for Bernie to
try and compete with them in any way. Just focus on specific products,
don't lose sight of the prize, and I have no doubts he'll do well -
perhaps even better as the Starbuckistas may accidentally stumble into
his shop and find something that actually tastes great.
Mark
|
| | |
Date: 14 Jul 2006 10:56:20
From: Brent
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that
>> you
>> want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee ...
>
> Jack, you know I rarely find anything to argue with you on, but this is
> one of those things.
>
> Starbucks has long stopped being in the business of "selling coffee".
> The shortest form is, they are selling an image, a lifestyle. Coffee
> just happens to be part of it.
>
> Because that's what Starbucks is, it would be a mistake for Bernie to
> try and compete with them in any way. Just focus on specific products,
> don't lose sight of the prize, and I have no doubts he'll do well -
> perhaps even better as the Starbuckistas may accidentally stumble into
> his shop and find something that actually tastes great.
>
> Mark
>
Well, seeing as we are all disagreeing and all :)
No Mark, you are wrong!
Starbucks is in the business of selling coffee. It is still the core of what
it is they do - it's the biggest category of sales etc etc etc.
They do do a whole heap of other stuff to support the whole thing, but I am
yet to hear of a *$ that doesn't actually do coffee.
Sure the image and all that crap is a big part of it, but the stores to my
knowledge (passed one this morning) still have signage that says STARBUCKS
COFFEE
:)
Brent
|
| | |
Date: 13 Jul 2006 22:17:27
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
In article <1152823738.619809.260820@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
Coffeekid@gmail.com says...
>
> Jack Denver wrote:
> > You and the others can play all the word games, niche games, etc. that you
> > want but in the end, Starbucks will sell you a cup of coffee ...
>
> Jack, you know I rarely find anything to argue with you on, but this is
> one of those things.
>
> Starbucks has long stopped being in the business of "selling coffee".
> The shortest form is, they are selling an image, a lifestyle. Coffee
> just happens to be part of it.
>
Starbucks has said they have two businesses operating in each store --
"whole bean" and "MAKE THE SCENE". They know which one is bigger . . .
Rick
|
| |
Date: 28 Jul 2006 04:20:01
From: ensenadajim
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
If Bernie has concerns, he should get a look at the current issue of
The Espresso, a San Diego coffeehouse and cafe newspaper that is not
allowed in Starbucks, although almost every independent and other
chain allow it.
Two starbies stories in this issue. On the front page under the
headline, OB Starbucks mines customers from OB coffeehouses John Rippo
talks about the Ocean Beach mermaid unit's manager sending employees
with coffee to give to the independent house's customers. It has
happend a couple of times over approximately five months.
Also mentioned is that starbie's has called the police in to arrest
people doing any competitive marketing, even some college student
handing out a flyer of local independent houses. Great double
standard.
The Espresso's webpage has not been updated as of this writing with
this story, but you can check at www.theespresso.com later on.
A second mention of the stupidity of a starbie bitchista concerns a
downtown San Diego unit on a corner near/in the Gaslamp District. This
unit sits on a corner and it seems an older gentleman was nearly hit
by a car right in front of the mermaid's house and he was so shook up
he sat down at one of thei mermaid's sidewalk tables. The bitchista
came out and informed the old timer that the seats were for paying
cusotmers and that if he didn;t go in and order something, he would be
charged with trespass.
The man used some strong language on the bitchista, used his cel to
call the San Dego Police and report the plates of the car that had
nearly hit him. The hung up and called his office - code enforcement
for the City of San Diego concerning some violations of the mermaid's
sidewalk seating areas.
Again, from The Espresso, Heard in the Houses, page 3. July 2006
jim
|
| | |
Date: 30 Jul 2006 20:31:04
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: My new neighbors
|
"ensenadajim" <ensenadaXXXjim@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:flrjc2h9o34clplgc3th7e4c1unp9ubs9i@4ax.com...
>
> If Bernie has concerns, he should get a look at the current issue of
> The Espresso, a San Diego coffeehouse and cafe newspaper that is not
> allowed in Starbucks, although almost every independent and other
> chain allow it.
>
> Two starbies stories in this issue. On the front page under the
> headline, OB Starbucks mines customers from OB coffeehouses John Rippo
> talks about the Ocean Beach mermaid unit's manager sending employees
> with coffee to give to the independent house's customers. It has
> happend a couple of times over approximately five months.
>
> Also mentioned is that starbie's has called the police in to arrest
> people doing any competitive marketing, even some college student
> handing out a flyer of local independent houses. Great double
> standard.
>
>
> The Espresso's webpage has not been updated as of this writing with
> this story, but you can check at www.theespresso.com later on.
>
>
> A second mention of the stupidity of a starbie bitchista concerns a
> downtown San Diego unit on a corner near/in the Gaslamp District. This
> unit sits on a corner and it seems an older gentleman was nearly hit
> by a car right in front of the mermaid's house and he was so shook up
> he sat down at one of thei mermaid's sidewalk tables. The bitchista
> came out and informed the old timer that the seats were for paying
> cusotmers and that if he didn;t go in and order something, he would be
> charged with trespass.
>
> The man used some strong language on the bitchista, used his cel to
> call the San Dego Police and report the plates of the car that had
> nearly hit him. The hung up and called his office - code enforcement
> for the City of San Diego concerning some violations of the mermaid's
> sidewalk seating areas.
>
> Again, from The Espresso, Heard in the Houses, page 3. July 2006
>
>
> jim
>
It finally on line:
the OG *$ story http://theespresso.com/ed_displayarticle.php?id=129
and the Heard in the houses, *4 story hidden in the middle
http://theespresso.com/dispColumn.php?id=138&type=1
they seem to have chosen the worng person to tick off.
|
|
