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Main
Date: 26 Aug 2006 18:26:25
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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The challenge:
My neighbor brought his Oscar over to compare it to my gear (various Gaggia,
La Pavoni, Cimbali M32, etc). We used his home roasted blend (Yergacheffi &
Antigua 50/50 4 day old) & my week old espresso blend (pretty much all the
little bits of green beans thrown in the TurboCrazy & roasted to a light
Vienna). We ran the Styrofoam cup test on each to determine where 200F was &
pulled all shots as close to this mark as possible. Both blends were freshly
ground on the same machine. All shots were doubles & tamped @30 lbs.
Results:
machine/coffee his mine
Oscar sweet & round broad low notes &
fruity
Cimbali ditto fruity &
acidic
Gaggia;
Classic broad, rounded, sweet fruit, chocolate,
mushrooms?
Espresso ditto
ditto
La Pavoni Pro creamy, sweet chocolate, lots of crema
Bottom line:
All five machines made pretty much the same flavors in the cup. The matrix
above doesn't show it but there was very little difference between the
neighbors blend & mine. The careful selection of blends for espresso is
debatable, when dark roasted most of the varietals flavors are dissipated &
the roast itself imparts the biggest flavor influences.
Now my opinions on the Oscar. It's a nice (BIG) machine, large boiler, good
quality parts internally. Cheap looking plastic case (looks sort of like a
Krups) & the water reservoir looks like a nightmare. The O-ring seal &
plastic one-way ball valve looks like they were designed to pour water into
the machine & it's a pain in the ass to get the reservoir out & an even
bigger pain to fill in place (try pouring from a pitcher held at shoulder
height into an opening the size of a silver dollar). I wonder why NS built
it this way when everyone else is using the plastic bucket & rubber tube
approach so effectively? Plus, there's no way to visually determine the
reservoir's water level (the Oscar owner must rely on an electrical switch
to know when the tank needs refilling). I did like the portafilters (nice &
heavy & nicer chrome job than Gaggia & Rancilio), but hated the filter
baskets with their multi-internal ridges. Thankfully the Gaggia filters are
a perfect fit & it looks like the have a finer perforation that the Oscar
filters (a good thing). Oh, and the Gaggia portafilters also are a perfect
fit plus they're a LOT cheaper than the NS ($50 vs. $90).
Final notes:
Would I buy an Oscar? Probably, especially if it was priced less than $900.
Did it outperform the others? Not for one or two shots, but with the
exception of the more expensive La Cimbali M32 Classic 2-group, it was
easier to pull successive quality shots. The larger boiler may have played a
bigger roll here than did the HX. I'd be curious to see an Oscar compared to
a Gaggia Classic or Silvia with a PID. I'd expect the results to be
consistent between the three, with the much larger & well insulated boiler
of the Oscar countering the PID's technical edge.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 13:07:54
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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Comments below:
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:ln0Ig.1823$bM.514@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> The challenge:
>
> Now my opinions on the Oscar. It's a nice (BIG) machine, large boiler,
> good quality parts internally. Cheap looking plastic case (looks sort of
> like a Krups) & the water reservoir looks like a nightmare. The O-ring
> seal & plastic one-way ball valve looks like they were designed to pour
> water into the machine & it's a pain in the ass to get the reservoir out &
> an even bigger pain to fill in place (try pouring from a pitcher held at
> shoulder height into an opening the size of a silver dollar). I wonder why
> NS built it this way when everyone else is using the plastic bucket &
> rubber tube approach so effectively? Plus, there's no way to visually
> determine the reservoir's water level (the Oscar owner must rely on an
> electrical switch to know when the tank needs refilling).
Of all my dislikes of the Oscar, this isn't one of them, after having lived
with the machine for years. I never pull the tank except for cleaning. Yes,
the fill hole is small but with a suitable pitcher I get MOST of the water
in the hole- it makes me nervous sometimes that a little misses and runs
down into the machine, but so far this has never caused any damage. You can
see the water level if you peer down into the hole. I could see that having
a machine underneath overhanging cabinets would be a pain but I don't have
it that way.
I did like the portafilters (nice &
> heavy & nicer chrome job than Gaggia & Rancilio), but hated the filter
> baskets with their multi-internal ridges. Thankfully the Gaggia filters
> are a perfect fit & it looks like the have a finer perforation that the
> Oscar filters (a good thing). Oh, and the Gaggia portafilters also are a
> perfect fit plus they're a LOT cheaper than the NS ($50 vs. $90).
NS baskets are notoriously shallow (don't hold enough coffee) - I switched
a long time ago to the "ridgeless" aftermarket LM baskets - a few more grams
of coffee make a BIG difference in the shot. Aftermarket (Ascaso) NS
portafilters also fit (same as the NS commercial machines) and are cheap
(IIRC somewhere in the $30 range). The inside chrome on them is thin to
non-existent, but this makes no difference if you saw off the bottom. Sawing
off the bottom is the only way a NS PF will take a triple basket.
>
> Final notes:
>
> Would I buy an Oscar? Probably, especially if it was priced less than
> $900. Did it outperform the others? Not for one or two shots, but with the
> exception of the more expensive La Cimbali M32 Classic 2-group, it was
> easier to pull successive quality shots. The larger boiler may have played
> a bigger roll here than did the HX. I'd be curious to see an Oscar
> compared to a Gaggia Classic or Silvia with a PID. I'd expect the results
> to be consistent between the three, with the much larger & well insulated
> boiler of the Oscar countering the PID's technical edge.
What if you PID the Oscar (as I have)? Then where's the technical edge?
Actually, from a pure straight espresso shot POV, the Silvia might still be
better b/c HX designs apply PID to the steam boiler - the temp inside the HX
is more a function of the flushing routine than the PID readout temp. BUT,
and this is a big but to me, an Oscar (any HX machine) is a much more
versataile all round machine - my Oscar stays on 24/7 and the steam wand is
useful for all sorts of kitchen tasks (warming up coffee and tea that have
gotten cold, warming up soup, etc.) as well as being able to "steam while
brewing". Single boilers, lacking autofill, are not meant as 24/7 machines
and the need to change modes to go from steam to brew and back again makes
them a kludge if you have any regular desire to steam milk. To me, this puts
HX/dual boiler machines in an entirely different league - a motor scooter
and a sedan are both forms of motorized transport, but one has a much higher
convenience level than the other.
I haven't regretted buying mine (especially since I got it for an obscenely
low price on ebay) - it has required its share of parts over the years but
no more than could be expected from any HX espresso machine (except for the
flaky mini-pstats- those went on a regular basis, but the PID conversion
seems to have put an end to that). Other than the Pstat, over time the
heating element blew, the steam valve wore out, the o-rings in part of the
water distribution system started leaking, and that's about it, aside from
the group gasket (I'm talking about a machine that has been used daily for
several years). Keep in mind that these machines are made in Italy and not
Japan - maybe if Honda or Toyota made espresso machines they'd never break
at all. The pump and level control have held up - they are nicely situated
in their own compartment below the boiler where they are somewhat protected
from heat.
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 18:00:12
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:jO-dnf0IGPH2TGzZnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Comments below:
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ln0Ig.1823$bM.514@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Well, now I own the Oscar. The neighbor's wife thought it ugly & too big for
"her" kitchen decor. It was offered to me for the amount he had in it
(ridiculously little). Now what do I do with it? I could put it on eBay but
for some reason these don't sell for what they should. Maybe I'll show it
around the next time we have the group of home-roasters over? Let's see...,
I now have three HX systems, six electric single boiler pump machines, two
manual lever models, various moka pots, too many Silex vac pots, three or
eight drip coffee pots & a VERY understanding wife - AKA 'the ol' ball &
chain'. ;) I love you sweetie!
I think this hobby may be reaching the level of being a compulsion; what do
you think?
> What if you PID the Oscar (as I have)?
I did a little research on putting a PID on HX machines. The prevailing
opinion on Coffee Geek seems to be against doing this. Something about the
PID reacting to the p-stats' efforts, resulting in a 'saw tooth' heating
profile. I'm not sure if I'm quoting this correctly but the bottom line was
that it was counter productive. I'm hoping that the higher quality p-stat
(Sirai) used in new Oscar's will make the need to PID moot anyway.
What I would like to do is plumb this sucker & get rid of that reservoir. I
understand that NS offered the Oscar preplumbed. Has anyone ever gotten the
parts from them to retro fit a pour-over model? Chris Coffee & others have
toilet tank kits for reservoirs but I don't think they'd work in an Oscar
because of the very small opening. Any suggestions?
The Oscar IS a kick-ass espresso maker compared to other home machines I've
used; Silvia, Gaggia, La Pavoni,, etc., etc.). But is that really a fair
comparison, since the Oscar is not a true home espresso maker? It's rated &
warranted as a commercial model & it's to the Silvia, Classic, & other home
machines as the PID'd versions of these machines are to their non-modified
versions. At $900+ new & $500 - $700 used it's not your typical home
machine. But it's a great step up machine when you've taken the
single-boiler semi-auto consumer espresso makers as far as they'll go.
They're also probably the cheapest of the best available of the prosumer
models.
>
>> --
>> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>
>
>
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 21:24:47
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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In article <M4lIg.14474$xp2.7463@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net >,
r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com says...
> I think this hobby may be reaching the level of being a compulsion; what do
> you think?
>
Having more than one espresso machine is a compulsion, unlike bicycles.
;-)
Rick
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Date: 27 Aug 2006 16:02:32
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:M4lIg.14474$xp2.7463@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:jO-dnf0IGPH2TGzZnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Comments below:
>> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:ln0Ig.1823$bM.514@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>
> I think this hobby may be reaching the level of being a compulsion; what
> do you think?
Sounds like you passed that point a while ago. Join the club.
>
>> What if you PID the Oscar (as I have)?
>
> I did a little research on putting a PID on HX machines. The prevailing
> opinion on Coffee Geek seems to be against doing this. Something about the
> PID reacting to the p-stats' efforts, resulting in a 'saw tooth' heating
> profile. I'm not sure if I'm quoting this correctly but the bottom line
> was that it was counter productive. I'm hoping that the higher quality
> p-stat (Sirai) used in new Oscar's will make the need to PID moot anyway.
Probably the Sirai is good enough, but frankly I have no idea what the hell
they are talking about on coffeegeek. There's no more pstat - the PID
replaces it entirely, so they can't react against each other. From what I've
seen, the PID is all good in its effect on temp stability. Mechanical stats
(especially the Sirai) have a huge swing between their on and off points,
while the PID can flick the element on for a second or two as often as
needed to keep the machine stable. If you have a link to the relevant
discussion on coffeegeek, please post it.
>
> What I would like to do is plumb this sucker & get rid of that reservoir.
> I understand that NS offered the Oscar preplumbed. Has anyone ever gotten
> the parts from them to retro fit a pour-over model? Chris Coffee & others
> have toilet tank kits for reservoirs but I don't think they'd work in an
> Oscar because of the very small opening. Any suggestions?
>
I haven't done either but I think you could fit the toilet tank kit in
there - worst case you could take a knife to the opening and enlarge it.
> The Oscar IS a kick-ass espresso maker compared to other home machines
> I've used; Silvia, Gaggia, La Pavoni,, etc., etc.). But is that really a
> fair comparison, since the Oscar is not a true home espresso maker? It's
> rated & warranted as a commercial model & it's to the Silvia, Classic, &
> other home machines as the PID'd versions of these machines are to their
> non-modified versions. At $900+ new & $500 - $700 used it's not your
> typical home machine. But it's a great step up machine when you've taken
> the single-boiler semi-auto consumer espresso makers as far as they'll go.
> They're also probably the cheapest of the best available of the prosumer
> models.
I think on a good day you can get a better deal on a Bezzera or an Expobar.
NS is a more respected maker but the others have metal cases and hot water
wands. If my Oscar broke beyond repair (cracked boiler is probably the only
thing that would truly kill it) , I'd probably take whichever of them is the
cheapest that day.
>>
>>> --
>>> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 01:03:17
From: Paul Monaghan
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:26:25 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
>Final notes:
>
>Would I buy an Oscar? Probably, especially if it was priced less than $900.
>Did it outperform the others? Not for one or two shots, but with the
>exception of the more expensive La Cimbali M32 Classic 2-group, it was
>easier to pull successive quality shots. The larger boiler may have played a
>bigger roll here than did the HX. I'd be curious to see an Oscar compared to
>a Gaggia Classic or Silvia with a PID. I'd expect the results to be
>consistent between the three, with the much larger & well insulated boiler
>of the Oscar countering the PID's technical edge.
Glad you like Oscar. If I still had mine (and I still would if I had
not lucked onto a 3 group Faema by accident) I would focus first on
adding a pressure gauge. From what I could tell there is no easy place
to mount a flush-mount gauge. But I think you can mount a "suspended"
gauge on the left of the PF (looking at the machine) hanging down
between the "backsplash" (to call it that) and the front of the
machine. A gauge with the connection oriented to the north would do
it. There is a gap in the housing there that will allow a copper pipe,
bent appropriately, to come through. Voila.
If you keep him, consider this, especially since the factory pressure
setting is somewhat high, and so maybe this presents an opportunity
for high payoff tweaking without much out of pocket expense. Just the
gauge and some pipe and connectors, and some considerable planning and
installation time, if you are handy. But for a hobby, the time is
free!
With a gauge installed, my next mod would be a pid. Not so much for
stability as for ease of adjustment.
If with all of that you become un happy with temp stability, I would
consider installing an overpressure valve on the input side of the
boiler, but that is certainly not necessary right away. You see, brew
pressure, if you ask NS, is not adjustable. But in fact it is: you
just have to adjust the expansion valve that is screwed into the
grouphead on the left side, as you look at the machine. The problem is
that this adjustment is made to water that has already come through
the HX and is already hot, sot if you have to draw some of this water
off into the pan to get the pressure right you are wasting heat and
potentially compromising temp stability. Drawing this water off at a
point BEFORE the water reaches the HX would eliminate this
inefficiency.
But again, I think this is small beans. The machine makes great shots
as is. It can make better shots modified. The only question is how far
you want to let your obsession lead you. (!)
Hope that helps!
Good luck!
Paul
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 14:55:07
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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Are you referring to a brew pressure gauge or a steam gauge?
For brew pressure, all you really need is a PF mounted gauge to make a one
time adjustment in the expansion valve as you describe. For steam pressure,
you don't really need one on a PID equipped machine, since temp and pressure
two sides of the same coin in a sealed boiler (if you could reprogram the
PID display, it could just as well convert thermocouple volts to a pressure
readout as a temp readout). As it is, consulting the steam tables will tell
you exactly how may bar 122C (or whatever temp you see) equates to.
I highly recommend the PID conversion, especially if your Oscar does not
have the Sirai, not so much for the tweakablilty (I arrived at a setting I
liked and I pretty much kept it there) but for the reliability, which for me
has so far been greater than the highly problem prone mini-pstats, which my
Oscar seemed to eat thru with better than annual frequency. Also, as I
mentioned, the temp readout serves as a proxy steam pressure gauge.
"Paul Monaghan" <monaghan@shorelinelegal.com > wrote in message
news:9j37f29ublk3ssut7gopsc91vpuna5o29e@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:26:25 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
> <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Final notes:
>>
>>Would I buy an Oscar? Probably, especially if it was priced less than
>>$900.
>>Did it outperform the others? Not for one or two shots, but with the
>>exception of the more expensive La Cimbali M32 Classic 2-group, it was
>>easier to pull successive quality shots. The larger boiler may have played
>>a
>>bigger roll here than did the HX. I'd be curious to see an Oscar compared
>>to
>>a Gaggia Classic or Silvia with a PID. I'd expect the results to be
>>consistent between the three, with the much larger & well insulated boiler
>>of the Oscar countering the PID's technical edge.
>
> Glad you like Oscar. If I still had mine (and I still would if I had
> not lucked onto a 3 group Faema by accident) I would focus first on
> adding a pressure gauge. From what I could tell there is no easy place
> to mount a flush-mount gauge. But I think you can mount a "suspended"
> gauge on the left of the PF (looking at the machine) hanging down
> between the "backsplash" (to call it that) and the front of the
> machine. A gauge with the connection oriented to the north would do
> it. There is a gap in the housing there that will allow a copper pipe,
> bent appropriately, to come through. Voila.
>
> If you keep him, consider this, especially since the factory pressure
> setting is somewhat high, and so maybe this presents an opportunity
> for high payoff tweaking without much out of pocket expense. Just the
> gauge and some pipe and connectors, and some considerable planning and
> installation time, if you are handy. But for a hobby, the time is
> free!
>
> With a gauge installed, my next mod would be a pid. Not so much for
> stability as for ease of adjustment.
>
> If with all of that you become un happy with temp stability, I would
> consider installing an overpressure valve on the input side of the
> boiler, but that is certainly not necessary right away. You see, brew
> pressure, if you ask NS, is not adjustable. But in fact it is: you
> just have to adjust the expansion valve that is screwed into the
> grouphead on the left side, as you look at the machine. The problem is
> that this adjustment is made to water that has already come through
> the HX and is already hot, sot if you have to draw some of this water
> off into the pan to get the pressure right you are wasting heat and
> potentially compromising temp stability. Drawing this water off at a
> point BEFORE the water reaches the HX would eliminate this
> inefficiency.
>
> But again, I think this is small beans. The machine makes great shots
> as is. It can make better shots modified. The only question is how far
> you want to let your obsession lead you. (!)
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> Good luck!
> Paul
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 19:57:55
From: Paul Monaghan
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:55:07 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
>Are you referring to a brew pressure gauge or a steam gauge?
Brew pressure. I agree the PF mounted gauge is good to get in the
right range, but I do like the idea of being able to monitor this with
just a glance. And since pressure is in part a function of the
resistance of the puck, I wonder whether it would be helpful to set
the expansion valve to, say, 10 bar and then adjust grind/tamp to hit
9. Just an idea, I haven't really thought it through.
I also agree there is no point in measuring steam pressure.
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 18:55:37
From: glepore
Subject: Re: Nuova Simonelli Oscar
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Robert Harmon wrote:
> ">
> > >
> What I would like to do is plumb this sucker & get rid of that reservoir. I
> understand that NS offered the Oscar preplumbed. Has anyone ever gotten the
> parts from them to retro fit a pour-over model? Chris Coffee & others have
> toilet tank kits for reservoirs but I don't think they'd work in an Oscar
> because of the very small opening. Any suggestions?
>
> > >
I have Chris's "toilet tank" kit-I was going to direct plumb w/ a
pressure regulator, but others here suggested I keep the reservoir, and
its not a bad idea. Life has intervened, and I haven't actually
installed it yet (either have to drill a granite countertop or a tile
backsplash to get the tube to it, but I presumed I'd just pull the tank
and remove half of the top.
I really like my Oscar-I added a pid and a vac breaker. I subsequently
removed the breaker as it would occassionally seep, and my machine is
now more or less on 24/7. Hated the stock pressurestat-mine never
"failed" totally but would stick once in a while, a pain when it
happens in the middle of the night. I did end up replumbing almost all
of the press fit teflon tubing with copper and compression fittings, as
they all began to seep, eventually soaking the brain and leading to
what I thought was total failure, although after drying completly (read
like over a 24 hr period) it resumed normal function.
Mine was purchased used on ebay for around $350, and it came with an
upgrade to a lever style steam valve and an audible alarm for low
water.
> >
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