| |
Main
Date: 27 Aug 2006 19:42:59
From: rasqual
Subject: Open Sky Roaster
|
The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's an
informal introduction to the thing:
http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
--
Scott
|
|
| |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:43:35
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
rasqual" <scott.marquardt@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156732979.702366.38730@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's an
> informal introduction to the thing:
>
> http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
>
> --
>
> Scott
>
Scott,
This is a very interesting design and there are some very novel features, as
others have pointed out.
If BBQ grill roasting is going to move to the next level, a key problem that
you mention needs to be resolved. The problem to which I refer is heat loss
in windy weather, especially when it is cold. Since many of us live in
temperate areas, the reality is that we are going to be roasting outside in
cold weather during half of the year. The need to do this outside or at
least in an open garage is self-evident; bbq grills are not designed to
output their smoke in a way that can easily go up a smoke hood or be vented
in some other fashion.
I had considerable experience with these problems during the first year I
used my 1lb sample drum roaster, purchased from roasters exchange (yes, the
website remains www.roastersexchange.com :-), however the model I bought is
no longer being sold). Initially I had the roaster sitting on a cart with 4
wheels, ran it off a propane tank, and would move the cart to the garage
back door, opening that and the two large front garage doors whenever I
roasted. In the winter I had to pick my days and even so it was hard to
roast consistently as the temperature and the wind would change considerably
during a 2 or (maybe) 3 hour roasting session. And this was with a purpose
built sample roaster that was small and had (after I changed it; thanks
again, Barry) a very powerful burner. It would have been possible, although
difficult, to insulate the outside of the roaster, and in any event there is
a large diameter tryer hole that could not be "insulated." In the end I put
in a smoke hood and mounted the roaster permanently under it. Even so, and
even with only 500g batches of green beans, if I roast more than maybe 3 or
4 batches the garage becomes noticeably smoky by the end of the roasting
session; this still beats the hell out of roasting outside in January,
however.
Since most people are not going to do what I did, and since bbq roasters
can't really have their smoke vented, the reality of bbq roasting for most
people is going to include roasting outside in the winter. In order to deal
with the problems associated with roasting in cold weather and in wind, two
things seem fairly obvious to me: (1) a small bbq with a very powerful
heatsource is to be preferred; (2) the bbq needs to be insulated in some
fashion. Since most home roasters don't really "need" to roast mega-pound
batches, the smaller size implied in #1 shouldn't be a problem for most, and
the less surface area the grill presents to the wind, the less heat loss
will occur and the easier it will be to insulate. From what I have read,
most bbq roasters seem to have enough trouble finishing their batches "fast
enough," with little excess power to spare even in the summer, so managing
heat loss in the winter seems essential for year round roasting. Otherwise,
one is going to be doing 15 minute roasts in the summer and 25 minute
stalled roasts in the winter.
It seems to me that this whole project would be easier with a small but
overpowered grill, that is large enough to hold a drum that can roast at
least a pound per batch. Does such a grill exist, or can a small one that
does exist be modified to be both overpowered and well insulated?
ken
|
| | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:13:27
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lgkt5F1oq0fU1@individual.net...
>
> rasqual" <scott.marquardt@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1156732979.702366.38730@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's
>> an
>> informal introduction to the thing:
>>
>> http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
>>
>> --
>>
>> Scott
>>
>
> Scott,
>
> This is a very interesting design and there are some very novel
> features, as others have pointed out.
>
> If BBQ grill roasting is going to move to the next level, a key
> problem that you mention needs to be resolved. The problem to which I
> refer is heat loss in windy weather, especially when it is cold.
> Since many of us live in temperate areas, the reality is that we are
> going to be roasting outside in cold weather during half of the year.
> The need to do this outside or at least in an open garage is
> self-evident; bbq grills are not designed to output their smoke in a
> way that can easily go up a smoke hood or be vented in some other
> fashion.
>
> I had considerable experience with these problems during the first
> year I used my 1lb sample drum roaster, purchased from roasters
> exchange (yes, the website remains www.roastersexchange.com :-),
> however the model I bought is no longer being sold). Initially I had
> the roaster sitting on a cart with 4 wheels, ran it off a propane
> tank, and would move the cart to the garage back door, opening that
> and the two large front garage doors whenever I roasted. In the
> winter I had to pick my days and even so it was hard to roast
> consistently as the temperature and the wind would change considerably
> during a 2 or (maybe) 3 hour roasting session. And this was with a
> purpose built sample roaster that was small and had (after I changed
> it; thanks again, Barry) a very powerful burner. It would have been
> possible, although difficult, to insulate the outside of the roaster,
> and in any event there is a large diameter tryer hole that could not
> be "insulated." In the end I put in a smoke hood and mounted the
> roaster permanently under it. Even so, and even with only 500g
> batches of green beans, if I roast more than maybe 3 or 4 batches the
> garage becomes noticeably smoky by the end of the roasting session;
> this still beats the hell out of roasting outside in January, however.
>
> Since most people are not going to do what I did, and since bbq
> roasters can't really have their smoke vented, the reality of bbq
> roasting for most people is going to include roasting outside in the
> winter. In order to deal with the problems associated with roasting
> in cold weather and in wind, two things seem fairly obvious to me:
> (1) a small bbq with a very powerful heatsource is to be preferred;
> (2) the bbq needs to be insulated in some fashion. Since most home
> roasters don't really "need" to roast mega-pound batches, the smaller
> size implied in #1 shouldn't be a problem for most, and the less
> surface area the grill presents to the wind, the less heat loss will
> occur and the easier it will be to insulate. From what I have read,
> most bbq roasters seem to have enough trouble finishing their batches
> "fast enough," with little excess power to spare even in the summer,
> so managing heat loss in the winter seems essential for year round
> roasting. Otherwise, one is going to be doing 15 minute roasts in the
> summer and 25 minute stalled roasts in the winter.
>
> It seems to me that this whole project would be easier with a small
> but overpowered grill, that is large enough to hold a drum that can
> roast at least a pound per batch. Does such a grill exist, or can a
> small one that does exist be modified to be both overpowered and well
> insulated?
>
> ken
>
>
Ken, I'm sure you've seen Ed Needhams website Homeroaster? He's
addressed the problem of venting with a fitted smoke manifold/stack
flue/damper vented through his workshop wall.
http://www.homeroaster.com/5pound2.html
http://www.homeroaster.com/P4210981.JPG
Craig.
|
| | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:11:51
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:4lgmhlF1renfU1@individual.net...
>
> >
> Ken, I'm sure you've seen Ed Needhams website Homeroaster? He's addressed
> the problem of venting with a fitted smoke manifold/stack flue/damper
> vented through his workshop wall. http://www.homeroaster.com/5pound2.html
> http://www.homeroaster.com/P4210981.JPG
> Craig.
Craig,
No doubt this is a solution for someone who is handy and can do sheet metal
work. For most people, however, constructing something like this will be
beyond their abilities and having someone else do it would be
cost-prohibitive.
What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop, garage).
That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live, illegal. I
did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane, although I had a
very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away, outside. Even so, I
was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho where it is not allowed to
operate any propane appliance off a hose in an enclosed space. I'd bet that
many other states have similar laws and regulations. IF somehow there was
an accident and a fire or damage resulted, you can be pretty sure your
insurance company won't cover it, and your local fire marshall may start
taking more interest in your home roasting than you would like:-)
The solution I arrived at was to have the roaster permanently plumbed into
natural gas by a plumber, who required that the roaster cart's wheels be
removed, that the roaster be attached to the cart, and the cart attached to
the garage floor. Rest assured, this was not cheap. My smoke hood was
designed and installed by a friend who used to work in HVAC; he charged me
$300 which was probably about $10 or $15/hr. for his time and labor, plus
the sheet metal place charged $300 for the hood and metal backstop/wall fire
protection. I'm sure an individual who paid to have an exhaust system ala
Ed's would pay quite a bit to have a contractor put that in.
What I'm getting at is that if one wants to do this cost-effectively, e.g.
cheaply, the best solution is to roast outside where there aren't any issues
about using a propane tank nor any need to ventilate the exhaust from the
grill. Given that, my initial points about having a small and high powered
grill to work with seem to me to be the best and most reasonably priced
option.
ken
|
| | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 17:04:52
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Local laws may vary but it's entirely possible everywhere to legally install
a properly rated propane driven appliance (with the tanks outdoors) inside a
building. In many rural areas that do not have natural gas service, propane
is used as a natural gas substitute, and the kitchen range, hot water
heater, dryer, home furnace, etc. can all be run off of outdoor propane
tanks (either buried or above ground) - usually only a simple change of
orifices is needed to go from one to the other. Modern codes may require a
gas detector, but these are cheap and are wise to have in any event (unlike
nat gas, propane is heavier than air and tends to accumulate in low spots,
waiting for a spark to set it off, so leaking propane is even more dangerous
than leaking gas). You're right that they may have to be hard plumbed with
metal rather than rubber hoses, but this is no big deal, especially now that
there are continuous systems (bendable stainless or copper tubing) and flex
connectors that are much easier to work with than the old fashioned threaded
iron pipe. Of course if you have nat. gas available, this is almost always
more economical on a per btu basis. Something like an outdoor gas grill or
outdoor burner that is not rated for indoor use can't be used indoor
regardless of whether you feed it gas or propane and venting is yet another
issue.
The point is that whatever barriers existed to installing your roaster
indoors had nothing to do with propane v. natural gas, really, though you're
right that a legal indoor gas OR propane installation is not a trivial thing
compared to an outdoor appliance where the requirements are quite relaxed.
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lgtj5F1rn3kU1@individual.net...
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:4lgmhlF1renfU1@individual.net...
>>
>> >
>> Ken, I'm sure you've seen Ed Needhams website Homeroaster? He's addressed
>> the problem of venting with a fitted smoke manifold/stack flue/damper
>> vented through his workshop wall. http://www.homeroaster.com/5pound2.html
>> http://www.homeroaster.com/P4210981.JPG
>> Craig.
>
> Craig,
>
> No doubt this is a solution for someone who is handy and can do sheet
> metal work. For most people, however, constructing something like this
> will be beyond their abilities and having someone else do it would be
> cost-prohibitive.
>
> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop,
> garage). That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live,
> illegal. I did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane,
> although I had a very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away,
> outside. Even so, I was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho where
> it is not allowed to operate any propane appliance off a hose in an
> enclosed space. I'd bet that many other states have similar laws and
> regulations. IF somehow there was an accident and a fire or damage
> resulted, you can be pretty sure your insurance company won't cover it,
> and your local fire marshall may start taking more interest in your home
> roasting than you would like:-)
>
> The solution I arrived at was to have the roaster permanently plumbed into
> natural gas by a plumber, who required that the roaster cart's wheels be
> removed, that the roaster be attached to the cart, and the cart attached
> to the garage floor. Rest assured, this was not cheap. My smoke hood was
> designed and installed by a friend who used to work in HVAC; he charged me
> $300 which was probably about $10 or $15/hr. for his time and labor, plus
> the sheet metal place charged $300 for the hood and metal backstop/wall
> fire protection. I'm sure an individual who paid to have an exhaust
> system ala Ed's would pay quite a bit to have a contractor put that in.
>
> What I'm getting at is that if one wants to do this cost-effectively, e.g.
> cheaply, the best solution is to roast outside where there aren't any
> issues about using a propane tank nor any need to ventilate the exhaust
> from the grill. Given that, my initial points about having a small and
> high powered grill to work with seem to me to be the best and most
> reasonably priced option.
>
> ken
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:26:37
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:Y5GdnQgburrox27ZnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Local laws may vary but it's entirely possible everywhere to legally
> install a properly rated propane driven appliance (with the tanks
> outdoors) inside a building. In many rural areas that do not have natural
> gas service, propane is used as a natural gas substitute, and the kitchen
> range, hot water heater, dryer, home furnace, etc. can all be run off of
> outdoor propane tanks (either buried or above ground) - usually only a
> simple change of orifices is needed to go from one to the other. Modern
> codes may require a gas detector, but these are cheap and are wise to have
> in any event (unlike nat gas, propane is heavier than air and tends to
> accumulate in low spots, waiting for a spark to set it off, so leaking
> propane is even more dangerous than leaking gas). You're right that they
> may have to be hard plumbed with metal rather than rubber hoses, but this
> is no big deal, especially now that there are continuous systems (bendable
> stainless or copper tubing) and flex connectors that are much easier to
> work with than the old fashioned threaded iron pipe. Of course if you have
> nat. gas available, this is almost always more economical on a per btu
> basis. Something like an outdoor gas grill or outdoor burner that is not
> rated for indoor use can't be used indoor regardless of whether you feed
> it gas or propane and venting is yet another issue.
>
> The point is that whatever barriers existed to installing your roaster
> indoors had nothing to do with propane v. natural gas, really, though
> you're right that a legal indoor gas OR propane installation is not a
> trivial thing compared to an outdoor appliance where the requirements are
> quite relaxed.
I don't think that I stated or even implied that the issue was the choice of
fuel, propane vs. natural gas. The issue is the use of a tank that is rated
for outside use (like a standard bbq cylindar) attached with a rubber hose
with the tank and hose (or just the hose) being inside a building while the
appliance is being operated. Ed's installation (from what you are saying)
would also be inadvisable because an appliance (the grill) which is intended
to be used outside is instead being used inside a building. My roaster is
designed to be used inside; afterall, these things are bought by commercial
roasters and are used inside of their facilities.
The issue originally came up in my case when I had the smoke hood installed;
my original intention was to get a longer rubber hose so that with the new
location of the roaster, further into the garage under the hood, I would
have enough hose to locate the tank outside. The old hose length would have
been marginal for this and I wanted the tank far enough away from the
building that I wouldn't be paranoid about it. I tried to buy a longer hose
and ended up getting referred to a propane supplier in a nearby town. When
I explained the intended use he refused to sell me a hose and told me that
what I was proposing to do was illegal and dangerous. The more I explained
to him such things as the fact that it would only be used a few hours a
month, etc. etc. etc., the more adament he was and the more he insisted that
I contact a plumber. The plumber dismissed out of hand my original idea of
plumbing in the roaster with rigid pipe going out to propane cylinders as
both too expensive and silly in a house with a natural gas line a few feet
away from the roaster (my garage has a natural gas heater in it to heat the
garage in winter). When I bought the new burner for the roaster I paid
several dollars extra to get an orifice/jet for natural gas burned at high
altitude (where I live) to have around in the event that I might ultimately
convert the roaster over, so I already had the part and it was easy to swap
out as part of the plumb in job of the roaster to natural gas.
The safest and cheapest route for almost any home roaster contemplating bbq
roasting would be to get it set up for outside use.
ken
>
>
>
>
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4lgtj5F1rn3kU1@individual.net...
>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>> news:4lgmhlF1renfU1@individual.net...
>>>
>>> >
>>> Ken, I'm sure you've seen Ed Needhams website Homeroaster? He's
>>> addressed the problem of venting with a fitted smoke manifold/stack
>>> flue/damper vented through his workshop wall.
>>> http://www.homeroaster.com/5pound2.html
>>> http://www.homeroaster.com/P4210981.JPG
>>> Craig.
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> No doubt this is a solution for someone who is handy and can do sheet
>> metal work. For most people, however, constructing something like this
>> will be beyond their abilities and having someone else do it would be
>> cost-prohibitive.
>>
>> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
>> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop,
>> garage). That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live,
>> illegal. I did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane,
>> although I had a very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away,
>> outside. Even so, I was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho
>> where it is not allowed to operate any propane appliance off a hose in an
>> enclosed space. I'd bet that many other states have similar laws and
>> regulations. IF somehow there was an accident and a fire or damage
>> resulted, you can be pretty sure your insurance company won't cover it,
>> and your local fire marshall may start taking more interest in your home
>> roasting than you would like:-)
>>
>> The solution I arrived at was to have the roaster permanently plumbed
>> into natural gas by a plumber, who required that the roaster cart's
>> wheels be removed, that the roaster be attached to the cart, and the cart
>> attached to the garage floor. Rest assured, this was not cheap. My
>> smoke hood was designed and installed by a friend who used to work in
>> HVAC; he charged me $300 which was probably about $10 or $15/hr. for his
>> time and labor, plus the sheet metal place charged $300 for the hood and
>> metal backstop/wall fire protection. I'm sure an individual who paid to
>> have an exhaust system ala Ed's would pay quite a bit to have a
>> contractor put that in.
>>
>> What I'm getting at is that if one wants to do this cost-effectively,
>> e.g. cheaply, the best solution is to roast outside where there aren't
>> any issues about using a propane tank nor any need to ventilate the
>> exhaust from the grill. Given that, my initial points about having a
>> small and high powered grill to work with seem to me to be the best and
>> most reasonably priced option.
>>
>> ken
>>
>>
>
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 20:57:19
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
You certainly made the right decision- if you have nat. gas in the house,
propane does not make economic sense, especially if you are buying it
"retail" one 20 lb. tank refill at a time.
Scott certainly seems to be planning for outdoor use only, which is wise
given all the code obstacles we have just discused to a legal indoor
roaster. However, that does get you back to the problem of winter roasting.
The "turkey fryer" type burners like the double burner that Scott showed in
his last post can be had in almost any BTU rating, enough to heat a whole
house. I think you'd need some kind of heat plate or tiles in between
because the direct flame on the drum would tend to burn things up. In a
windy location you'd need to set up some kind of booth or windscreen
(keeping it well away from the flame) plus maybe as you suggest insulating
the drum enclosure. I assume that in truly cold climates outdoor farmers
markets don't run in the deep winter anyway, because there are no crops for
the farmers to sell. I'm not referring to those phony kind of indoor
"farmers markets' that are just a sort of upscale food court with nary a
farmer in sight - that's what we have around here.
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lh5frF1tfk7U1@individual.net...
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:Y5GdnQgburrox27ZnZ2dnUVZ_sidnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Local laws may vary but it's entirely possible everywhere to legally
>> install a properly rated propane driven appliance (with the tanks
>> outdoors) inside a building. In many rural areas that do not have natural
>> gas service, propane is used as a natural gas substitute, and the kitchen
>> range, hot water heater, dryer, home furnace, etc. can all be run off of
>> outdoor propane tanks (either buried or above ground) - usually only a
>> simple change of orifices is needed to go from one to the other. Modern
>> codes may require a gas detector, but these are cheap and are wise to
>> have in any event (unlike nat gas, propane is heavier than air and tends
>> to accumulate in low spots, waiting for a spark to set it off, so leaking
>> propane is even more dangerous than leaking gas). You're right that they
>> may have to be hard plumbed with metal rather than rubber hoses, but this
>> is no big deal, especially now that there are continuous systems
>> (bendable stainless or copper tubing) and flex connectors that are much
>> easier to work with than the old fashioned threaded iron pipe. Of course
>> if you have nat. gas available, this is almost always more economical on
>> a per btu basis. Something like an outdoor gas grill or outdoor burner
>> that is not rated for indoor use can't be used indoor regardless of
>> whether you feed it gas or propane and venting is yet another issue.
>>
>> The point is that whatever barriers existed to installing your roaster
>> indoors had nothing to do with propane v. natural gas, really, though
>> you're right that a legal indoor gas OR propane installation is not a
>> trivial thing compared to an outdoor appliance where the requirements are
>> quite relaxed.
>
>
>
> I don't think that I stated or even implied that the issue was the choice
> of fuel, propane vs. natural gas. The issue is the use of a tank that is
> rated for outside use (like a standard bbq cylindar) attached with a
> rubber hose with the tank and hose (or just the hose) being inside a
> building while the appliance is being operated. Ed's installation (from
> what you are saying) would also be inadvisable because an appliance (the
> grill) which is intended to be used outside is instead being used inside a
> building. My roaster is designed to be used inside; afterall, these
> things are bought by commercial roasters and are used inside of their
> facilities.
>
> The issue originally came up in my case when I had the smoke hood
> installed; my original intention was to get a longer rubber hose so that
> with the new location of the roaster, further into the garage under the
> hood, I would have enough hose to locate the tank outside. The old hose
> length would have been marginal for this and I wanted the tank far enough
> away from the building that I wouldn't be paranoid about it. I tried to
> buy a longer hose and ended up getting referred to a propane supplier in a
> nearby town. When I explained the intended use he refused to sell me a
> hose and told me that what I was proposing to do was illegal and
> dangerous. The more I explained to him such things as the fact that it
> would only be used a few hours a month, etc. etc. etc., the more adament
> he was and the more he insisted that I contact a plumber. The plumber
> dismissed out of hand my original idea of plumbing in the roaster with
> rigid pipe going out to propane cylinders as both too expensive and silly
> in a house with a natural gas line a few feet away from the roaster (my
> garage has a natural gas heater in it to heat the garage in winter). When
> I bought the new burner for the roaster I paid several dollars extra to
> get an orifice/jet for natural gas burned at high altitude (where I live)
> to have around in the event that I might ultimately convert the roaster
> over, so I already had the part and it was easy to swap out as part of the
> plumb in job of the roaster to natural gas.
>
> The safest and cheapest route for almost any home roaster contemplating
> bbq roasting would be to get it set up for outside use.
>
> ken
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4lgtj5F1rn3kU1@individual.net...
>>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>>> news:4lgmhlF1renfU1@individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> Ken, I'm sure you've seen Ed Needhams website Homeroaster? He's
>>>> addressed the problem of venting with a fitted smoke manifold/stack
>>>> flue/damper vented through his workshop wall.
>>>> http://www.homeroaster.com/5pound2.html
>>>> http://www.homeroaster.com/P4210981.JPG
>>>> Craig.
>>>
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> No doubt this is a solution for someone who is handy and can do sheet
>>> metal work. For most people, however, constructing something like this
>>> will be beyond their abilities and having someone else do it would be
>>> cost-prohibitive.
>>>
>>> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
>>> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop,
>>> garage). That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live,
>>> illegal. I did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane,
>>> although I had a very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away,
>>> outside. Even so, I was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho
>>> where it is not allowed to operate any propane appliance off a hose in
>>> an enclosed space. I'd bet that many other states have similar laws and
>>> regulations. IF somehow there was an accident and a fire or damage
>>> resulted, you can be pretty sure your insurance company won't cover it,
>>> and your local fire marshall may start taking more interest in your home
>>> roasting than you would like:-)
>>>
>>> The solution I arrived at was to have the roaster permanently plumbed
>>> into natural gas by a plumber, who required that the roaster cart's
>>> wheels be removed, that the roaster be attached to the cart, and the
>>> cart attached to the garage floor. Rest assured, this was not cheap.
>>> My smoke hood was designed and installed by a friend who used to work in
>>> HVAC; he charged me $300 which was probably about $10 or $15/hr. for his
>>> time and labor, plus the sheet metal place charged $300 for the hood and
>>> metal backstop/wall fire protection. I'm sure an individual who paid to
>>> have an exhaust system ala Ed's would pay quite a bit to have a
>>> contractor put that in.
>>>
>>> What I'm getting at is that if one wants to do this cost-effectively,
>>> e.g. cheaply, the best solution is to roast outside where there aren't
>>> any issues about using a propane tank nor any need to ventilate the
>>> exhaust from the grill. Given that, my initial points about having a
>>> small and high powered grill to work with seem to me to be the best and
>>> most reasonably priced option.
>>>
>>> ken
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 01:04:00
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
It's in a 'detached' garage/workshop, so I'm not too concerned about blowing
up or burning down my house. As to the biggest concern with
propane--pooling at lower levels if there is a leak. My workshop is so
drafty and uninsulated that I doubt any respectable propane would pool in
there if there was a leak. I crack the door next to the roaster a few
inches on the coldest days of winter anyway, and roast with the door fully
open in the warmer months.
As to danger from CO poisoning, I don't get any reading on my CO meter near
the roaster except right at the time I light it. Then it puts off a burst
of CO that registers if I have the CO meter very close to the roaster.
I would never use a propane grill in residential home or an attached garage
unless the garage door was wide open and the grill was almost outside.
In most states, a fixed gas pipe with a quick disconnect and a flexible
metal gas hose to the appliance will suffice. That allows restaurants and
the like to move cookers away from the wall a bit for cleaning and repairs.
They are not required to mount them to the floor either. Ken, if you pushed
it, you might have gotten off with this kind of setup. One day I may do it
like that myself, but for now, I am satisfied with my setup.
If I were to keep the grill/roaster outside, I would build a plywood and 2x4
wind screen around and over the grill. It's not much fun to stand outside
when temps are 10F or below.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lgtj5F1rn3kU1@individual.net...
<SNIP >
> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop,
> garage). That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live,
> illegal. I did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane,
> although I had a very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away,
> outside. Even so, I was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho where
> it is not allowed to operate any propane appliance off a hose in an
> enclosed space. I'd bet that many other states have similar laws and
> regulations. IF somehow there was an accident and a fire or damage
> resulted, you can be pretty sure your insurance company won't cover it,
> and your local fire marshall may start taking more interest in your home
> roasting than you would like:-)
>
> The solution I arrived at was to have the roaster permanently plumbed into
> natural gas by a plumber, who required that the roaster cart's wheels be
> removed, that the roaster be attached to the cart, and the cart attached
> to the garage floor. Rest assured, this was not cheap. My smoke hood was
> designed and installed by a friend who used to work in HVAC; he charged me
> $300 which was probably about $10 or $15/hr. for his time and labor, plus
> the sheet metal place charged $300 for the hood and metal backstop/wall
> fire protection. I'm sure an individual who paid to have an exhaust
> system ala Ed's would pay quite a bit to have a contractor put that in.
>
> What I'm getting at is that if one wants to do this cost-effectively, e.g.
> cheaply, the best solution is to roast outside where there aren't any
> issues about using a propane tank nor any need to ventilate the exhaust
> from the grill. Given that, my initial points about having a small and
> high powered grill to work with seem to me to be the best and most
> reasonably priced option.
>
> ken
>
>
|
| | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 08:30:34
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Hi Ed,
Roasting outside in the winter really sucks; we have both learned that from
experience. The saving grace of the bbq roaster in that setting is that at
least in theory one could do one or two large batches and then be done with
it, limiting the actual time spent outside to maybe half an hour or 45
minutes. A cold freezer would come in handy for storing just-roasted beans
and in that scenario one could limit roasting to once a month or even less.
Like you I have used and continue to use CO meters in the vicinity of the
roaster in my garage; they have never detected any CO since I started
roasting, either when I used propane or more recently with natural gas.
I live in a somewhat rural area and not having any plumbing skills myself I
needed to use a local plumbing contractor. Given a choice of doing rough
ins or service plumbing, the local guys will all choose new construction
over service work every day of the week since it is much more lucrative.
There is also a competence factor to consider wherein there are many more
plumbers (and electricians) than there are competent ones. Therefore it is
hard enough locally to find someone to fix your leaky toilet and generally
not productive to try to get a plumber to do something they don't want to
do. The guy who plumbed in my roaster was exceptionally competent and
meticulous. He was very straightforward about what he was willing to do and
what he was not willing to do. Any sort of installation in a home without
the roaster itself secured was unacceptable in his view. From the
standpoint of liability, I can see why he would take this tack.
In any event I felt fortunate to have this guy do my work; he spent the
better part of a day on it and did a very tight and neat installation. He
also significantly undercharged me for his time, which I never understood
but also chose not to ask him about:-)
Anyway, this is how it all happened and if I had it to do over again I'd
have proceded in exactly the same way, except, if I had the original roaster
purchase to do over then I'd probably buy a self-contained, ventilated and
exhausted roaster like one of the smaller drum roasters from the obvious
mfrs. When I consider all the money I've expended on the roaster, the hood,
and the plumb in, I think I could have ended up with a 1kg roaster that
directly exhausts outside rather than the cobbled together solution I've
ended up with.
Best,
ken
"Ed Needham" <ed@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote in message
news:g4-dnWQabcH0oGnZnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> It's in a 'detached' garage/workshop, so I'm not too concerned about
> blowing up or burning down my house. As to the biggest concern with
> propane--pooling at lower levels if there is a leak. My workshop is so
> drafty and uninsulated that I doubt any respectable propane would pool in
> there if there was a leak. I crack the door next to the roaster a few
> inches on the coldest days of winter anyway, and roast with the door fully
> open in the warmer months.
>
> As to danger from CO poisoning, I don't get any reading on my CO meter
> near the roaster except right at the time I light it. Then it puts off a
> burst of CO that registers if I have the CO meter very close to the
> roaster.
>
> I would never use a propane grill in residential home or an attached
> garage unless the garage door was wide open and the grill was almost
> outside.
>
> In most states, a fixed gas pipe with a quick disconnect and a flexible
> metal gas hose to the appliance will suffice. That allows restaurants and
> the like to move cookers away from the wall a bit for cleaning and
> repairs. They are not required to mount them to the floor either. Ken, if
> you pushed it, you might have gotten off with this kind of setup. One day
> I may do it like that myself, but for now, I am satisfied with my setup.
>
> If I were to keep the grill/roaster outside, I would build a plywood and
> 2x4 wind screen around and over the grill. It's not much fun to stand
> outside when temps are 10F or below.
> --
> *********************
> Ed Needham®
> "to absurdity and beyond!"
> ed at homeroaster dot com
> (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
> *********************
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 11:03:38
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
I designed stores (including kitchen layouts and equipment) for corporate
KFC for nine years, and all of our gas cookers, in every state I put stores
in, used a rigid gas pipe to a shut off valve, a quick disconnect, and a
metal flex hose to the cooker. The cookers were not bolted down. My old
code books are all packed away or I'd try to cite the code.
A typical gas range in a home uses the same basic configuration, so the
range can be pulled out for servicing. I believe you that the guy you had
was likely very competent, but was ignoring a very common way of connecting
gas appliances.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lj1fmF24putU1@individual.net...
<SNIP >The guy who plumbed in my roaster was exceptionally competent and
> meticulous. He was very straightforward about what he was willing to do
> and what he was not willing to do. Any sort of installation in a home
> without the roaster itself secured was unacceptable in his view. From the
> standpoint of liability, I can see why he would take this tack.
<SNIP >
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 10:23:44
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Hi Ed,
Of course, the codes could be different for a commercial location than they
are for home use. In any event, the installation I have could be taken down
if need be for working on the roaster; only one gas fitting would need to be
loosened, and the roaster is secured to the cart with two bolts which could
be removed in 5 minutes with a wrench and a screwdriver. The concern that
the plumber had was that the roaster might fall off the cart or the cart
could be knocked, damaging the gas line. There is a valve shutoff on the
piping which would allow the roaster to be easily disconnected; I have this
valve turned off unless I am roasting as an additional safeguard.
The gas line uses that new material (I forget the name of it) that is coated
flexible SS piping. This is the material that costs more but has lower
labor costs to install and fewer junctions in it. He gave me options on the
installation and that was the one I chose. Whether this type of tubing is
compatible with installing a quck disconnect downstream, I do not know.
From a practical standpoint the only possible reason why I'd ever want to
remove the roaster for servicing would be if the bean cooler tray blower
needed replacement. Even that part, which is inches from the wall, could
probably be replaced without moving the roaster. None of the other moving
parts are inaccessible the way the roaster is currently installed and
secured. Perhaps in a real business setting where the sample roaster were
used daily it would be more prone to needing repairs than it needs being
used in a residential setting.
ken
"Ed Needham" <ed@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote in message
news:7v2dnVJllqiFymnZnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>I designed stores (including kitchen layouts and equipment) for corporate
>KFC for nine years, and all of our gas cookers, in every state I put stores
>in, used a rigid gas pipe to a shut off valve, a quick disconnect, and a
>metal flex hose to the cooker. The cookers were not bolted down. My old
>code books are all packed away or I'd try to cite the code.
> A typical gas range in a home uses the same basic configuration, so the
> range can be pulled out for servicing. I believe you that the guy you had
> was likely very competent, but was ignoring a very common way of
> connecting gas appliances.
>
> --
> *********************
> Ed Needham®
> "to absurdity and beyond!"
> ed at homeroaster dot com
> (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
> *********************
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4lj1fmF24putU1@individual.net...
> <SNIP>The guy who plumbed in my roaster was exceptionally competent and
>> meticulous. He was very straightforward about what he was willing to do
>> and what he was not willing to do. Any sort of installation in a home
>> without the roaster itself secured was unacceptable in his view. From
>> the standpoint of liability, I can see why he would take this tack.
> <SNIP>
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 13:16:36
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
The yellow jacketed tubing is called CSST (corrugated stainless steel
tubing) though it is often called by a trade name - Gastite, Easyflex, etc.
It's basicaly the same stuff that has been used for years for the prebuilt
short flex connectors that Ed described, but instead they sell it in long
runs (with field installed connectors on either end, so it can be cut to
length). The installers have to be specially trained and certified by each
manufacturer (something like a one day training course) in order to know how
to fit the end pieces properly (not rocket science, really). The idea is
that you connect it from the takeoff point (meter) and run it in one
continuous length until you reach the appliance as a substitute for black
iron pipe - that way there's no chance for leaks. It goes around corners and
can be run more or less the same way you would run an electrical cable -
fished thru walls, etc. It's a little pricey though. Lately there has been a
trend to use plain old fashioned soft copper tubing instead - this can be
run much the same way as the stainless but is cheaper per foot and uses
inexpensive flare connectors instead of the proprietary CCST connectors. At
one time there was fear that the sulfur in gas would attack copper but they
seem to have gotten past that.
Once you terminate the CSST with a IP thread fitting you can go back to
black iron to create the usual setup with a "dirt leg", a shut off-valve,
etc. For a stove or dryer, you'd add a flex connector at this point after
the valve (usually no quick disconnect in a home setting - not needed and
I'm not 100% sure whether they are even allowed indoors in the home -
outdoors they are common for hooking up gas grills to nat. gas - there's
even one manufacturer that has a system that looks sort of like an
electrical outlet so that "plugging in" gas is as easy as "plugging in" an
electrical cord).
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4lj83sF26lqeU1@individual.net...
> Hi Ed,
>
> Of course, the codes could be different for a commercial location than
> they are for home use. In any event, the installation I have could be
> taken down if need be for working on the roaster; only one gas fitting
> would need to be loosened, and the roaster is secured to the cart with two
> bolts which could be removed in 5 minutes with a wrench and a screwdriver.
> The concern that the plumber had was that the roaster might fall off the
> cart or the cart could be knocked, damaging the gas line. There is a
> valve shutoff on the piping which would allow the roaster to be easily
> disconnected; I have this valve turned off unless I am roasting as an
> additional safeguard.
>
> The gas line uses that new material (I forget the name of it) that is
> coated flexible SS piping. This is the material that costs more but has
> lower labor costs to install and fewer junctions in it. He gave me
> options on the installation and that was the one I chose. Whether this
> type of tubing is compatible with installing a quck disconnect downstream,
> I do not know. From a practical standpoint the only possible reason why
> I'd ever want to remove the roaster for servicing would be if the bean
> cooler tray blower needed replacement. Even that part, which is inches
> from the wall, could probably be replaced without moving the roaster.
> None of the other moving parts are inaccessible the way the roaster is
> currently installed and secured. Perhaps in a real business setting where
> the sample roaster were used daily it would be more prone to needing
> repairs than it needs being used in a residential setting.
>
> ken
>
>
>
>
> "Ed Needham" <ed@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com> wrote in message
> news:7v2dnVJllqiFymnZnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>>I designed stores (including kitchen layouts and equipment) for corporate
>>KFC for nine years, and all of our gas cookers, in every state I put
>>stores in, used a rigid gas pipe to a shut off valve, a quick disconnect,
>>and a metal flex hose to the cooker. The cookers were not bolted down.
>>My old code books are all packed away or I'd try to cite the code.
>> A typical gas range in a home uses the same basic configuration, so the
>> range can be pulled out for servicing. I believe you that the guy you
>> had was likely very competent, but was ignoring a very common way of
>> connecting gas appliances.
>>
>> --
>> *********************
>> Ed Needham®
>> "to absurdity and beyond!"
>> ed at homeroaster dot com
>> (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
>> *********************
>>
>> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4lj1fmF24putU1@individual.net...
>> <SNIP>The guy who plumbed in my roaster was exceptionally competent and
>>> meticulous. He was very straightforward about what he was willing to do
>>> and what he was not willing to do. Any sort of installation in a home
>>> without the roaster itself secured was unacceptable in his view. From
>>> the standpoint of liability, I can see why he would take this tack.
>> <SNIP>
>>
>
>
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 30 Aug 2006 12:28:33
From: Steve Ackman
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
In <admdnQdERaYa62nZnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@comcast.com >, on Tue, 29 Aug 2006
13:16:36 -0400, Jack Denver wrote:
> Lately there has been a
> trend to use plain old fashioned soft copper tubing instead - this can be
> run much the same way as the stainless but is cheaper per foot and uses
> inexpensive flare connectors instead of the proprietary CCST connectors. At
> one time there was fear that the sulfur in gas would attack copper but they
> seem to have gotten past that.
At one point, and I don't recall when or where,
copper tubing carrying gas was required to be
internally tinned.
When we bought a new house in ME in '79, the gas
installer hooked up the stove with a single run of
plain soft copper tubing all the way from the regulator
to the stove. (building-side tanks; no underground
run)
In MN, the (buried) line between the HP regulator on
the tank and the LP regulator at the house was copper.
Everything after the 2nd regulator was IP. (CSST
from wall IP to appliance)
In AZ, it was iron pipe all the way from the tank-top
regulator to appliance-side, and CSST from the wall
to the appliance. (Even the buried section of the run
was IP.)
IIRC, in our NH '00 installation, it was copper
tubing from the regulator on the tank to IP on the
house... just an adapter to connect flare to IP.
Wall to water heater wasn't readily visible so I can
only guess there was CSST there.
Presently our NH renter has copper line from tank-top
HP regulator to building-side LP regulator, and then
copper from the LP regulator to appliances. No IP
anywhere. No CSST anywhere. This was installed ~15
years ago.
Now (here anyway), all copper tubing carrying gas has
to be coated yellow, and tubing carrying heating oil/
diesel/kero, has to be coated red.
Bottom line is that regs vary SO much from state to
state, and in some cases even from county to county,
not to even mention year to year, that you really have
to do local research... or just have your local gas guy
do it.
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 30 Aug 2006 14:53:03
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
IIRC, copper was always (in most places at least) usable with propane - the
question was whether it could be used with nat. gas. You're right that there
is a lot of variation in code - in big cities with powerful plumbers unions,
IP is most likely to be mandated because it creates the most work. I'm not
sure all the variation you saw was code mandated- many codes allow for all 3
common types (CSST, soft copper, IP) to be used. IIRC, black iron should not
be used underground because of corrossion but maybe AZ is so dry that it
does not matter. I think that copper does NOT have to be tinned anymore but
YMMV. CSST always had the yellow jacket - I think the yellow jacket on
copper is new (makes it look more like CSST psychologically so that it
feels "OK" to use with gas) but I'm not sure whether it is code required
everywhere. For buried gas, IIRC you can also use plastic w/ a wire tracer
alongside so that it can be found later.
Your bottom line conclusion is right - check w/ your local gas/propane
supplier and building inspector. There's not a lot of rhyme or reason to the
variations, but logic has nothing to do with it.
"Steve Ackman" <steve@SNIP-THIS.twoloonscoffee.com > wrote in message
news:slrnefbf57.bgf.steve@wizard.dyndns.org...
> In <admdnQdERaYa62nZnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@comcast.com>, on Tue, 29 Aug 2006
> 13:16:36 -0400, Jack Denver wrote:
>
>> Lately there has been a
>> trend to use plain old fashioned soft copper tubing instead - this can be
>> run much the same way as the stainless but is cheaper per foot and uses
>> inexpensive flare connectors instead of the proprietary CCST connectors.
>> At
>> one time there was fear that the sulfur in gas would attack copper but
>> they
>> seem to have gotten past that.
>
> At one point, and I don't recall when or where,
> copper tubing carrying gas was required to be
> internally tinned.
>
> When we bought a new house in ME in '79, the gas
> installer hooked up the stove with a single run of
> plain soft copper tubing all the way from the regulator
> to the stove. (building-side tanks; no underground
> run)
>
> In MN, the (buried) line between the HP regulator on
> the tank and the LP regulator at the house was copper.
> Everything after the 2nd regulator was IP. (CSST
> from wall IP to appliance)
>
> In AZ, it was iron pipe all the way from the tank-top
> regulator to appliance-side, and CSST from the wall
> to the appliance. (Even the buried section of the run
> was IP.)
>
> IIRC, in our NH '00 installation, it was copper
> tubing from the regulator on the tank to IP on the
> house... just an adapter to connect flare to IP.
> Wall to water heater wasn't readily visible so I can
> only guess there was CSST there.
>
> Presently our NH renter has copper line from tank-top
> HP regulator to building-side LP regulator, and then
> copper from the LP regulator to appliances. No IP
> anywhere. No CSST anywhere. This was installed ~15
> years ago.
>
> Now (here anyway), all copper tubing carrying gas has
> to be coated yellow, and tubing carrying heating oil/
> diesel/kero, has to be coated red.
>
> Bottom line is that regs vary SO much from state to
> state, and in some cases even from county to county,
> not to even mention year to year, that you really have
> to do local research... or just have your local gas guy
> do it.
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 06:42:31
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Ken Fox wrote:
-snip-
> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop, garage).
> That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live, illegal. I
> did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane, although I had a
> very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away, outside. Even so, I
> was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho where it is not allowed to
> operate any propane appliance off a hose in an enclosed space. I'd bet that
> many other states have similar laws and regulations. -snip-
Mobile espresso bars. Mobile catering trailers. Burners inside.
Long hose. Propane outside. Thousands of them.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
|
| | | | | |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 23:57:42
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:4li2dmF1u2bcU1@individual.net...
> Ken Fox wrote:
> -snip-
>> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
>> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop,
>> garage). That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live,
>> illegal. I did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane,
>> although I had a very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away,
>> outside. Even so, I was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho
>> where it is not allowed to operate any propane appliance off a hose in an
>> enclosed space. I'd bet that many other states have similar laws and
>> regulations. -snip-
>
> Mobile espresso bars. Mobile catering trailers. Burners inside. Long
> hose. Propane outside. Thousands of them.
>
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
>
I have no doubt of that. Regulations vary from location to location.
AND:
Regulations/laws SHOULD be different for non permanent moveable structures
such as a mobile catering trailer than they should be for a permanent
building such as a house, garage, or workshop.
Ed's pictures however show a grill designed for outdoor use, with a standard
outdoor propane tank, and hose, all indoors in a permanent structure. They
are obviously being used there in that setup or there would be no reason to
have them sitting there to be photographed.
I don't know what the rules are where Ed lives, and I'm sure that Ed has
given all of this a lot of thought and considers it safe.
Notwithstanding any of that, I would not store a filled propane cylander
anywhere in my house for any period of time, and I would not want to have to
deal with an insurance company that denied my claim for fire damage on my
house because they found a bbq grill permanently installed in a part of my
house with a propane cylander and hose attached.
Perhaps insurers in the UK are more lenient about such things than they are
apt to be over here. It would not surprise me if insurance on a mobile
espresso bar was prohibitively expensive (like for a private airplane) to
the point where no one has it. In that case, insurance on the trailer
itself would be a non issue and one would only have to be concerned with
local regulations and whether or not they are enforced.
ken
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 10:10:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Regulations most definitely do differ from country to country - in Italy I
have often seen propane cylinders (slightly larger than US barbecue tanks)
kept right in the kitchen, connected to the gas cooktop with rubber hoses. I
assume it's legal over there. I believe a lot of southern Europe never got
around to running gas pipe in the street, so propane is all they have. Also
becoming very popular in the 3rd world - Middle East, China, India, etc. as
a cooking fuel - much easier to use than traditional fuels. IIRC, the
hoses have expiration dates stamped on them, so that you are supposed to
replace them before they get old and brittle and I think you are supposed to
shut the valve at the tank when the burner is not in use. But guess what -
they bring cylinders indoors and the world does not end.
In the US the ironclad rule is never keep a cylinder (larger than 1 lb.)
indoors. Also no rubber hoses for indoor hookups (mobile applications have
their own rules). But there are metal (corrugated stainless) flexes that are
allowed, so you can pull your stove out for cleaning. Propane (and even nat.
gas) can also be connected with copper flare tubing. Plumbers love black
iron pipe because it's so labor intensive/profitable to install, but it's
the worst thing around with its joints all over the place, each one a
potential leak point.
"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4li3e3F209uiU1@individual.net...
> "Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com> wrote in message
> news:4li2dmF1u2bcU1@individual.net...
>> Ken Fox wrote:
>> -snip-
>>> What's more, if you look at Ed's pictures you will see he is running his
>>> grill off of a propane tank, inside of an enclosed space (workshop,
>>> garage). That is both potentially dangerous and at least where I live,
>>> illegal. I did this with my roaster initially when it ran on propane,
>>> although I had a very long propane hose and put the tank 15 feet away,
>>> outside. Even so, I was informed that my setup was illegal in Idaho
>>> where it is not allowed to operate any propane appliance off a hose in
>>> an enclosed space. I'd bet that many other states have similar laws and
>>> regulations. -snip-
>>
>> Mobile espresso bars. Mobile catering trailers. Burners inside. Long
>> hose. Propane outside. Thousands of them.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards, Danny
>>
>> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
>> http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
>>
>
> I have no doubt of that. Regulations vary from location to location.
>
> AND:
>
> Regulations/laws SHOULD be different for non permanent moveable structures
> such as a mobile catering trailer than they should be for a permanent
> building such as a house, garage, or workshop.
>
> Ed's pictures however show a grill designed for outdoor use, with a
> standard outdoor propane tank, and hose, all indoors in a permanent
> structure. They are obviously being used there in that setup or there
> would be no reason to have them sitting there to be photographed.
>
> I don't know what the rules are where Ed lives, and I'm sure that Ed has
> given all of this a lot of thought and considers it safe.
>
> Notwithstanding any of that, I would not store a filled propane cylander
> anywhere in my house for any period of time, and I would not want to have
> to deal with an insurance company that denied my claim for fire damage on
> my house because they found a bbq grill permanently installed in a part of
> my house with a propane cylander and hose attached.
>
> Perhaps insurers in the UK are more lenient about such things than they
> are apt to be over here. It would not surprise me if insurance on a
> mobile espresso bar was prohibitively expensive (like for a private
> airplane) to the point where no one has it. In that case, insurance on
> the trailer itself would be a non issue and one would only have to be
> concerned with local regulations and whether or not they are enforced.
>
> ken
>
>
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| | | | | | | |
Date: 29 Aug 2006 17:12:24
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> Regulations most definitely do differ from country to country - in Italy I
> have often seen propane cylinders (slightly larger than US barbecue tanks)
> kept right in the kitchen, connected to the gas cooktop with rubber hoses. I
> assume it's legal over there. I believe a lot of southern Europe never got
> around to running gas pipe in the street, so propane is all they have. Also
> becoming very popular in the 3rd world - Middle East, China, India, etc. as
> a cooking fuel - much easier to use than traditional fuels. IIRC, the
> hoses have expiration dates stamped on them, so that you are supposed to
> replace them before they get old and brittle and I think you are supposed to
> shut the valve at the tank when the burner is not in use. But guess what -
> they bring cylinders indoors and the world does not end.
Same in Spain. Propane cylinders run cookers in all the Villas I've
seen, with the cylinder in a cupboard adjacent to the cooker.
All boats etc have to run this way also, albeit with gas leakage
detection systems.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:07:02
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Very cleverly designed! What is the capacity of the drum? It looks like it
comes very close to completely filling the inside of the grill - wouldn't it
have been a little better for air circulation to give it a bit more
clearance? Where does the chaff go? Is there a "chimney" for the smoke or
does it just exit from the edge of the lid?
"rasqual" <scott.marquardt@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1156732979.702366.38730@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's an
> informal introduction to the thing:
>
> http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
>
> --
>
> Scott
>
|
| |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 06:40:48
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Danny wrote:
> rasqual wrote:
> > The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's an
> > informal introduction to the thing:
> >
> > http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
> >
>
> Absolutely brilliant job! Well done. A much better thinker and
> tinkerer than I am!
>
Bear in mind it was a colaboration with a great machinist.
One who doesn't drink coffee.
;-)
--
Scott
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 07:43:16
From: Danny
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
rasqual wrote:
> The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's an
> informal introduction to the thing:
>
> http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
>
> --
>
> Scott
>
Absolutely brilliant job! Well done. A much better thinker and
tinkerer than I am!
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
|
| |
Date: 28 Aug 2006 20:36:22
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> Scott certainly seems to be planning for outdoor use only, which is wise
> given all the code obstacles we have just discused to a legal indoor
> roaster. However, that does get you back to the problem of winter roasting.
> The "turkey fryer" type burners like the double burner that Scott showed in
> his last post can be had in almost any BTU rating, enough to heat a whole
> house. I think you'd need some kind of heat plate or tiles in between
> because the direct flame on the drum would tend to burn things up. In a
> windy location you'd need to set up some kind of booth or windscreen
> (keeping it well away from the flame) plus maybe as you suggest insulating
> the drum enclosure. I assume that in truly cold climates outdoor farmers
> markets don't run in the deep winter anyway, because there are no crops for
> the farmers to sell. I'm not referring to those phony kind of indoor
> "farmers markets' that are just a sort of upscale food court with nary a
> farmer in sight - that's what we have around here.
Roger all of the above, Jack -- tile media between flame and drum,
insulation and windproofing. The prototype I'm using is vulnerable in
these areas. For tile media, I might be interested in mediating with a
touch of IR via ceramics. For insulation, I like
http://www.fyrewrap.com . Regarding wind, Jim Shulman did a batch --
was it the Costa Rica? -- just when the wind changed directions and, I
think, picked up a bit. It stalled things a bit around 350. We
physically turned the roaster to deal with it. I haven't tried . . . .
well hang on, let me go brew some.
Oooh, not bad! I didn't get a chance to taste it with a less doubtful
roast, though, so I can't be sure this is as good as it could have
been. And full disclosure: I have a cold so I'm a poor judge of
aromatics just now. Brewed it in an Aero with poly -- inverted, of
course. Not sour -- a fine cup. I think you went City with that, didn't
you Jim? (answering you over here). That was Dave's green, I believe?
I do admit to having lost track, in memory, of who brought which
greens.
Your Harrar ended up just dandy Jim. Heh. Can't get enough of that
origin -- ever. Of all the things it's impossible to tire of . . .
well, the market customers who were pleased to take some home will
doubtless have something to report next weekend.
--
Scott
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 22:56:49
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
On 28 Aug 2006 20:36:22 -0700, "rasqual" <scott.marquardt@gmail.com >
wrote:
>Regarding wind, Jim Shulman did a batch --
>was it the Costa Rica? -- just when the wind changed directions and, I
>think, picked up a bit. It stalled things a bit around 350. We
>physically turned the roaster to deal with it. I haven't tried . . . .
>well hang on, let me go brew some
Yeah, ironically it was a small 2lb load. The roast went at half speed
till we turned the roaster alee (?); after which it finished at a
proper clip (but requiring high flame even after the 1st). This proves
why there are such things as convection ovens (and airroasters). The
wind wasn't cold, but it simply blew away all the heat stord in the
drum and prevented the roast from gathering any momentum.
Your drum design is ultra-sweet: the roasts were even, the roast
process well-behaved, and operating it a total blast. Now you just
need to use the same ingenuity to weatherproof it.
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 18:31:57
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
On 27 Aug 2006 19:42:59 -0700, "rasqual" <scott.marquardt@gmail.com >
wrote:
>The roast-off this last weekend was the coming out party, so here's an
>informal introduction to the thing:
>
>http://scott.marquardt.googlepages.com/openskyroaster
Oops, I reported that just the vanes turned, looks like both ends of
the drum turn.
I hope the roast I did turned out halfway decent.
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:54:32
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Ken Fox wrote:
> [many good observations]
I've been considering alternative platforms. http://snipurl.com/vjeh is
an example of a candidate chassis with superb BTUs. No enclosure!
Exactly. Which both forces and allows for that to be suitably designed
for roasting.
I'm also very interested in adding controls to the valves for this
unit. If my machinist is game, we might be able to prototype something
that could govern the gas from a PID. It's fortunate that Erik
specializes in very small gearcases. Add some servos and drivers . . .
The winter thing is a bit painful to consider, yes. This particular
design is for outdoor use explicity, which won't help anyone in a
closed garage. However, I think that smoke control on an explicitly
designed housing is possible, and if that could allow for indoor use
it'd be a step in the right direction. Chaff control now -- that's a
tough one. We'll see what we can do!
--
Scott
|
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 10:37:32
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Jack Denver wrote:
> Very cleverly designed! What is the capacity of the drum? It looks like it
> comes very close to completely filling the inside of the grill - wouldn't it
> have been a little better for air circulation to give it a bit more
> clearance? Where does the chaff go? Is there a "chimney" for the smoke or
> does it just exit from the edge of the lid?
I'm sure it could do 10 lbs, but the BTUs in this grill are rough. Yes,
it's a huge drum. ;-) But circulation is guaranteed by the drag
induced as the drum turns. Chaff and smoke are on their own -- there's
no control for it. A production unit would pay a bit more attention to
that. From a practical standpoint, smoke hasn't been a problem
(dispersal at an outdoor farmer's market is fine), and chaff has only
occasionally been an issue.
- S
|
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 07:10:24
From: rasqual
Subject: Re: Open Sky Roaster
|
Ed Needham wrote:
> As to danger from CO poisoning, I don't get any reading on my CO meter near
> the roaster except right at the time I light it. Then it puts off a burst
> of CO that registers if I have the CO meter very close to the roaster.
Ah, I like the idea of a CO meter around.
My situation's a bit different -- a public place with something that
heats agricultural products to the burning temperature of paper. Well,
not quite. I'm not Starbucks. But I do keep a fire extinguisher handy
-- a good CO2 one so the beans will stay clean and cool quickly enough
to be salvageable. LOL
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