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Main
Date: 28 Aug 2006 05:21:46
From: rockbeer
Subject: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Hi all,
I just wondered whether anyone could clear up a question for me please
about the Epoca 1-group tank machine. I was under the impression that
this machine had independent steam and brew groups (i.e. I would be
able to steam and brew simultaneously with it), but I just had a chat
with a local dealer who tells me this isn't the case and the Epoca is
really just a cranked up Silvia with a bigger boiler.
I've no reason to disbelieve him - he was very helpful in fact - but
obviously interested in making a sale, and was trying to convince me
that to get true independent brewing and steaming I'd need to go all
the way up to the Classe 6. Which is a lot more expensive.
Basically, I need a truly portable, decent quality, commercial espresso
machine - in other words, it needs to run off an internal tank or
external reservoir - at or near the lowest price this can be achieved.
I will spend what's necessary but don't want to spend more than
necessary. I'm not really interested in levers. I'm currently asking a
poor Silvia to do more than it was designed for, serving up
espresso-based drinks alongside my food business at farmers markets.
It's going OK and people love the result, but any more volume and the
wheels will come off, and I can't go on with all this cycling the
temperature up and down.
I need a machine I can lift about and put to work in all kinds of odd
lcoations.
Any advice would be very much appreciated, as my chat today has left me
very confused.
Thanks in advance,
Bruce
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 11:54:50
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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I suggest that you deal with a another dealer, as this one was either not
being honest with you or did not understand the product he was selling -
like all HX machines, the Epoca is capable of "simultaneous" steam and brew.
Or perhaps your use of the words "independent groups" confused him - no heat
exchanger machine has truly independent groups in the sense of a dual
boiler machine (Rancilio does not make dual boiler machines in any event).
If you steam to the point that the pressure in the boiler is depleted (this
would be a LOT of milk) then the temperature in the brew system would be
affected somewhat (though it would recover fairly quickly). The smaller the
boiler, the more this effect would exist, but the Epoca is based on heat
exchanger technology, same as the Classe 6 and most assuredly is NOT just
an oversized single boiler ala Silvia. The classe 6 has two BREW groups -
again perhaps your misuse of the "group" word confused him - the steam
system is not usually referred to as a "group" at all. "Group" is a direct
(mis)translation from the Italian "gruppo" which is really better translated
as "assembly" or "set" referring (in the case of espresso machines) to the
set of parts that constitute the brew head.
"rockbeer" <bruce@siliconweb.ie > wrote in message
news:1156767705.954385.313010@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> Hi all,
> I just wondered whether anyone could clear up a question for me please
> about the Epoca 1-group tank machine. I was under the impression that
> this machine had independent steam and brew groups (i.e. I would be
> able to steam and brew simultaneously with it), but I just had a chat
> with a local dealer who tells me this isn't the case and the Epoca is
> really just a cranked up Silvia with a bigger boiler.
>
> I've no reason to disbelieve him - he was very helpful in fact - but
> obviously interested in making a sale, and was trying to convince me
> that to get true independent brewing and steaming I'd need to go all
> the way up to the Classe 6. Which is a lot more expensive.
>
> Basically, I need a truly portable, decent quality, commercial espresso
> machine - in other words, it needs to run off an internal tank or
> external reservoir - at or near the lowest price this can be achieved.
> I will spend what's necessary but don't want to spend more than
> necessary. I'm not really interested in levers. I'm currently asking a
> poor Silvia to do more than it was designed for, serving up
> espresso-based drinks alongside my food business at farmers markets.
> It's going OK and people love the result, but any more volume and the
> wheels will come off, and I can't go on with all this cycling the
> temperature up and down.
>
> I need a machine I can lift about and put to work in all kinds of odd
> lcoations.
>
> Any advice would be very much appreciated, as my chat today has left me
> very confused.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Bruce
>
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 08:19:06
From: Karl
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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I second the recommendation that you consider the Brewtus - may meet
your requirements although there will be some temperature creep if you
make too many shots back to back. It's a little slow steaming milk
(slower than my Silvia for 1 latte), but getting a two hole tip is said
to improve this. I've read that the one hole tip is designed to let you
steam only as fast as the element can keep the temperature up, so a two
hole tip might make for more temperature creep. Unlike Silvia, you
won't run out of steam, at least with the one hole tip, and (also
unlike Silvia) it refills the boiler automatically, so you won't steam
it dry and burn out the element. It's certainly much better for making
multiple shots or lattes than Silvia.
Not sure what you mean by "truly protable". The reservoir is internal,
so it is certainly portable, but it's heavy. I think it's listed at 61
pounds, but the 2, 1.7 liter boilers will add another 7 pounds or so
when full, and there is no easy way to completely drain them (although
you can easily drain about a pint out of what I believe is the the
steam boiler). I think you'll find you're at 65 pounds plus as drained
as you can easily get it.
I've "ported" it, but it makes Silvia seem very light on her feet.
Karl
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> You might want to consider the Expobar Brewtus II from WLL. It is a
> true dual boiler machine with preheater. Reasonably light weight and
> can be plumbed in with relatively little difficulty. It will go and go
> and go.
>
> Others with more experience may have even better recommendations.
>
> Will
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 18:34:34
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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On 28 Aug 2006 08:19:06 -0700, "Karl" <karlmiltonrice@yahoo.com >
wrote:
>I second the recommendation that you consider the Brewtus -
>
>Karl
>
>Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
>> You might want to consider the Expobar Brewtus II from WLL. It is a
>> true dual boiler machine with preheater. Reasonably light weight and
>> can be plumbed in with relatively little difficulty. It will go and go
>> and go.
>>
>> Others with more experience may have even better recommendations.
>>
>> Will
I'm curious whether either of you have used the Brewtus in a
commercial setting.
It is sold as a consumer machine and is not, to my knowledge, designed
for commercial wear and tear. This man's business is going to depend
on the reliability of his espresso machine, day after day. I would be
very reluctant to recommend a machine just because it worked well at
home or in light commercial use.
Marshall
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 13:13:20
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:5ed6f29mtjbvnifaouoo3lbt3ff08brpu3@4ax.com...
>>
> I'm curious whether either of you have used the Brewtus in a
> commercial setting.
>
> It is sold as a consumer machine and is not, to my knowledge, designed
> for commercial wear and tear. This man's business is going to depend
> on the reliability of his espresso machine, day after day. I would be
> very reluctant to recommend a machine just because it worked well at
> home or in light commercial use.
>
> Marshall
ditto
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:02:05
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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It really depends what you mean by "commercial service". The Oscar is
supposedly rated for light commercial service but it is no more heavily
built than any of the "prosumer" machines. I often see BZ-99s/01's in light
commercial service, again no more heavily built than the home Livia. The man
indicates that he is getting by (barely) with a Silvia, so one of the
"prosumer" machines might be adequate, especially in a 240V country where
you don't have to undersize the heating elements. OTOH, if he is doing (or
would like to do) more than say 30 drinks/hr. he really should get a true
commercial machine, especially if many of these are milk drinks. The Epoca
would do though.
If you want to keep one of these machines in service, it's a good idea to
buy a kit of common spare parts at the same time you buy the machine -
things that you will be replacing in the long run anyway. That way, when
something fails, you are talking about an hour or two of down time while
you swap out the part rather than waiting days for parts to arrive. The
common failure items on each machine vary according to their inherent design
weaknesses, but an experienced service tech could tell you what they are in
a minute.
"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:5ed6f29mtjbvnifaouoo3lbt3ff08brpu3@4ax.com...
> On 28 Aug 2006 08:19:06 -0700, "Karl" <karlmiltonrice@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I second the recommendation that you consider the Brewtus -
>>
>>Karl
>>
>>Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
>>> You might want to consider the Expobar Brewtus II from WLL. It is a
>>> true dual boiler machine with preheater. Reasonably light weight and
>>> can be plumbed in with relatively little difficulty. It will go and go
>>> and go.
>>>
>>> Others with more experience may have even better recommendations.
>>>
>>> Will
>
> I'm curious whether either of you have used the Brewtus in a
> commercial setting.
>
> It is sold as a consumer machine and is not, to my knowledge, designed
> for commercial wear and tear. This man's business is going to depend
> on the reliability of his espresso machine, day after day. I would be
> very reluctant to recommend a machine just because it worked well at
> home or in light commercial use.
>
> Marshall
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 14:59:08
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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On 28 Aug 2006 05:21:46 -0700, "rockbeer" <bruce@siliconweb.ie > wrote:
>Hi all,
>I just wondered whether anyone could clear up a question for me please
>about the Epoca 1-group tank machine. I was under the impression that
>this machine had independent steam and brew groups (i.e. I would be
>able to steam and brew simultaneously with it), but I just had a chat
>with a local dealer who tells me this isn't the case and the Epoca is
>really just a cranked up Silvia with a bigger boiler. <snip>
>Any advice would be very much appreciated, as my chat today has left me
>very confused.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Bruce
You two had a serious miscommunication. Giving the dealer the benefit
of the doubt, you may have confused him by talking about "independent
groups." More likely, he had no idea what he was talking about.
The Epoca, even the 1-group, is a heat exchanger, with brew group,
frothing wand and water dispenser. It's more like a budget Classe 6
than a jumped up Silvia.
Marshall
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 07:52:44
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
|
You might want to consider the Expobar Brewtus II from WLL. It is a
true dual boiler machine with preheater. Reasonably light weight and
can be plumbed in with relatively little difficulty. It will go and go
and go.
Others with more experience may have even better recommendations.
Will
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 09:33:05
From: Sylvain
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Strange Epoca has an heat exchanger, you could steam right after brewing.
I'd suggest you check also Feama Compact S (same as La Cimbali Bistro
series). Which would fill in your requirements.
"rockbeer" <bruce@siliconweb.ie > wrote in message
news:1156767705.954385.313010@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
> Hi all,
> I just wondered whether anyone could clear up a question for me please
> about the Epoca 1-group tank machine. I was under the impression that
> this machine had independent steam and brew groups (i.e. I would be
> able to steam and brew simultaneously with it), but I just had a chat
> with a local dealer who tells me this isn't the case and the Epoca is
> really just a cranked up Silvia with a bigger boiler.
>
> I've no reason to disbelieve him - he was very helpful in fact - but
> obviously interested in making a sale, and was trying to convince me
> that to get true independent brewing and steaming I'd need to go all
> the way up to the Classe 6. Which is a lot more expensive.
>
> Basically, I need a truly portable, decent quality, commercial espresso
> machine - in other words, it needs to run off an internal tank or
> external reservoir - at or near the lowest price this can be achieved.
> I will spend what's necessary but don't want to spend more than
> necessary. I'm not really interested in levers. I'm currently asking a
> poor Silvia to do more than it was designed for, serving up
> espresso-based drinks alongside my food business at farmers markets.
> It's going OK and people love the result, but any more volume and the
> wheels will come off, and I can't go on with all this cycling the
> temperature up and down.
>
> I need a machine I can lift about and put to work in all kinds of odd
> lcoations.
>
> Any advice would be very much appreciated, as my chat today has left me
> very confused.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Bruce
>
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 15:15:39
From: rockbeer
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Jack Denver wrote:
> Epoca specs here:
>
> http://www.espressotec.com/1024EpocaS1Tank.asp
>
> Let's be charitable and say he "misunderstood".
Interesting link -- that was the one I read last night before phoning
the dealer today. I was sure I wasn't making up the bit about the fully
welded heat exchanger.
>
> You should definitely buy from a company that has a local parts and service
> operation - nothing is more frustrating than having your business out of
> comission while waiting for parts to arrive from overseas.
>
Yes that's my feeling too. It's one thing having to break out the mocha
pot at home for a day or two while waiting for a seal to arrrive, quite
another to be losing money and letting down customers in the meantime.
> The other major Italian makers, have, I assume, Irish distributors, and make
> similar 1 group machines - Pavoni, Faema, Cimbali, Brasilia, Simonelli, etc.
> You should not limit yourself to Rancilio.
Yes, those machines are available and most have small machines, but few
seem to have commercial quality devices that don't need plumbing in. I
can see more research is in order - but I do like Rancilio. Maybe it's
a sentimental thing, but I can't seem to help it.
>
> You haven't mentioned a grinder up to now - if you don't have a high quality
> espresso burr grinder (e.g. a Mazzer) you need one, for sure.
Indeed. I'm using an Ascaso at the moment, which produces a lovely
grind and hasn't let me down. However, I can see the day coming when a
Mazzer mini rolls up in a big UPS truck... can't wait for that.
My names Bruce and I'm a hardware addict.
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:33:46
From: rockbeer
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Karl wrote:
> On the other hand, if Bruce is getting by for his usage
> with a Silvia at the moment (he says "any "more volume and the wheels
> will come off" so I gather he is), Brewtus would be a major step up in
> terms of cranking out repeated drinks, and, I believe, durability. If
> he can afford to go commercial, paying perhaps twice as much, great. If
> not, I think Brewtus would be better than Silvia. Much as I love
> Silvia.
I'm getting by, but no more. At the moment I'm just doing one market a
week (I get up to other things in the week!), mainly food, but I
started bringing Silvia along to meet trader-demand after our regular
coffee guy moved on to pastures new. Now demand has started to escalate
and we woud typically have three or four peaks a day where she is
seriously struggling to keep up. I can just about deal with that,
however, if demand keeps rising, or I want to do more events as a
dedicated espresso bar - which seems attractive given the customer
response to my coffee, the more than reasonable mark up, and the
massively lower prep time comapred to producing my home baked pastries
& spring rolls. - then Silvia is clearly going to start to object as
strongly as me.
Also, in the freny of trying to cook, serve and make coffee, I don't
doubt that at some point I'll toast Silvia after steaming up a couple
of big hot chocolates then forgetting to refill the boiler before
turning my attention to the fryer or whatever. It almost happened twice
already, and I'm starting to think I need something with safeguards.
I'm nowhere near 30 coffees an hour at this stage, probably doing a
third to half that, but I don't see anything wrong with having extra
capacity.
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:14:57
From: rockbeer
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Oh, and one other thing - he categorically stated "The Epoca S 1 group
tank model is not a heat exchanger machine".
So he lied then?!
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 16:41:52
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Epoca specs here:
http://www.espressotec.com/1024EpocaS1Tank.asp
Let's be charitable and say he "misunderstood".
You should definitely buy from a company that has a local parts and service
operation - nothing is more frustrating than having your business out of
comission while waiting for parts to arrive from overseas.
The other major Italian makers, have, I assume, Irish distributors, and make
similar 1 group machines - Pavoni, Faema, Cimbali, Brasilia, Simonelli, etc.
You should not limit yourself to Rancilio.
You haven't mentioned a grinder up to now - if you don't have a high quality
espresso burr grinder (e.g. a Mazzer) you need one, for sure.
"rockbeer" <bruce@siliconweb.ie > wrote in message
news:1156792497.770395.94360@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Oh, and one other thing - he categorically stated "The Epoca S 1 group
> tank model is not a heat exchanger machine".
>
> So he lied then?!
>
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:11:09
From: Karl
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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I've only used it in a consumer setting. I've run mine 24/7 for several
days without any problem, but I've never pulled more than 5 or 6 shots
one right after the other, or steamed more than about 12 oz of milk. Of
course, you're right that this doesn't mean it would stand up to
commercial use. On the other hand, if Bruce is getting by for his usage
with a Silvia at the moment (he says "any "more volume and the wheels
will come off" so I gather he is), Brewtus would be a major step up in
terms of cranking out repeated drinks, and, I believe, durability. If
he can afford to go commercial, paying perhaps twice as much, great. If
not, I think Brewtus would be better than Silvia. Much as I love
Silvia.
Karl (only sees Silvia weekends, at the river, now) Rice
Marshall wrote:
> I'm curious whether either of you have used the Brewtus in a
> commercial setting.
>
> It is sold as a consumer machine and is not, to my knowledge, designed
> for commercial wear and tear. This man's business is going to depend
> on the reliability of his espresso machine, day after day. I would be
> very reluctant to recommend a machine just because it worked well at
> home or in light commercial use.
>
> Marshall
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Date: 28 Aug 2006 12:02:18
From: rockbeer
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
|
Thanks everyone for your more-than-helpful comments.
Firstly, by 'truly portable', I mean a machine that needs no permanent
plumbing, either for water or waste, that plugs in to a standard
European ~240v electrical circuit, that one fairly strong person (me!)
can lift in and out of a vehicle without doing themselves an injury,
and with a compact footprint to save precious space in a small working
environment. It would also be greatly advantageous if it could be up
and ready to brew within a reasonable amount of time (15 - 20 mins) of
switching on, and likewise cool enough to move within a reasonable time
of powering down at the end of the day.
I must say, I like the look of the Brewtus II, which seems like it was
built to do the job I have in mind. Is there a 220-240v version though,
and could I get one shipped to me here in Ireland without breaking the
bank?? Also, as you say Karl, 30 kilos or so is a bit of weight to be
lugging about. Probably asking for trouble in the long run - if not for
me then for the machine :) And Marshall, I think you might well be
right about it being a domestic machine. I would rather have something
that will take the wear and tear, although this has to be weighed up
against the cost and probable additional weight.
It seems as though I need to do a bit of homework on my own
terminology. I probably did confuse the poor guy, although he claimed
to have worked as a Rancilio service engineer so I would hope he would
have found his way through my mistakes to see what I was aiming for.
Anyway, I'm glad to have cleared that up and it does sound like the
Epoca will do what I thought in the first place (and what I want, more
to the point). From what you're saying, I don't think the current
volume of steaming would be enough to exceed the Epoca's capabilities,
and anyway given the other constraints I'm going to have to compromise
somewhere. If demand soars (unlikely) or I start doing bigger gigs I'll
have to reconsider the whole rig and think about a trailer or cart
anyway. That's not really on the agenda right now.
As for trying another dealer, that is problematic too as these people
are (or claim to be) the only Rancilio dealers in Ireland. I could get
one shipped from the UK but it isn't so handy for after-sales service,
returns etc.
Anyway, there's a good bit of food for thought there so I'll give it
some more, and chat with a few other people. At the moment I'm leaning
towards the Epoca...
Cheers,
Bruce
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Date: 29 Aug 2006 11:08:08
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Rancilio Epoca S1 Tank - independent steam/brew?
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Have I used a Brewtus in commercial service? No.
Am I capable of reading? Yes.
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