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Main
Date: 29 Jun 2006 18:43:58
From: cpl593h
Subject: Rope Heater thermal putty
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I am about to ugly up my e61 group with a rope heater in hopes of
stabilizing the group temperature on my single boiler Isomac Zaffiro. I
have everything together except for the epoxy putty.
I went to Home Depot to look specifically for Oatey epoxy putty since I
have heard of others using it successfully, but they had none there. I
was hesitant to purchase any of the other putties there because none of
them were rated above 200F.
Where can I source heat conductive putty for my rope heater?
And a tech support question - does the whole heater have to be
encapsulated in putty? Should the rope heater touch the group directly
or should there be a layer of heat putty between them?
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 19:00:51
From: cpl593h
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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That's exactly what I was looking for at the Depot and couldn't find.
McMaster has thermal putty alright - but what am I going to do with a
gallon of it?
Craig Andrews wrote:
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:4gjeb4F1n345hU1@individual.net...
> >
> > "cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1151631838.411087.108050@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> >>I am about to ugly up my e61 group with a rope heater in hopes of
> >> stabilizing the group temperature on my single boiler Isomac Zaffiro.
> >> I
> >> have everything together except for the epoxy putty.
> >>
> >> I went to Home Depot to look specifically for Oatey epoxy putty since
> >> I
> >> have heard of others using it successfully, but they had none there.
> >> I
> >> was hesitant to purchase any of the other putties there because none
> >> of
> >> them were rated above 200F.
> >>
> >> Where can I source heat conductive putty for my rope heater?
> >>
> >> And a tech support question - does the whole heater have to be
> >> encapsulated in putty? Should the rope heater touch the group
> >> directly
> >> or should there be a layer of heat putty between them?
> >>
> >
> > Hi Matthew, I believe kristi & Andy Schecter here & on the CG forums
> > also got the thermal putty from McMaster Carr. I'll check on the CG
> > forums for you.
> > Cheers!
> > Craig.
>
> Home Depot, plumbing section; kristi's post.
> http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/196386
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 22:10:00
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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"cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1151632851.131213.94320@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> That's exactly what I was looking for at the Depot and couldn't find.
> McMaster has thermal putty alright - but what am I going to do with a
> gallon of it?
>
I remember it came in a large quantity, but I said nothing & didn't
actually check the site.. Umm, ya could go in with 200 people that want
to PID & rope heater their Silvia's? LOL! {;-D
Craig.
> Craig Andrews wrote:
>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>> news:4gjeb4F1n345hU1@individual.net...
>> >
>> > "cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1151631838.411087.108050@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>> >>I am about to ugly up my e61 group with a rope heater in hopes of
>> >> stabilizing the group temperature on my single boiler Isomac
>> >> Zaffiro.
>> >> I
>> >> have everything together except for the epoxy putty.
>> >>
>> >> I went to Home Depot to look specifically for Oatey epoxy putty
>> >> since
>> >> I
>> >> have heard of others using it successfully, but they had none
>> >> there.
>> >> I
>> >> was hesitant to purchase any of the other putties there because
>> >> none
>> >> of
>> >> them were rated above 200F.
>> >>
>> >> Where can I source heat conductive putty for my rope heater?
>> >>
>> >> And a tech support question - does the whole heater have to be
>> >> encapsulated in putty? Should the rope heater touch the group
>> >> directly
>> >> or should there be a layer of heat putty between them?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Hi Matthew, I believe kristi & Andy Schecter here & on the CG
>> > forums
>> > also got the thermal putty from McMaster Carr. I'll check on the CG
>> > forums for you.
>> > Cheers!
>> > Craig.
>>
>> Home Depot, plumbing section; kristi's post.
>> http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/196386
>
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 18:59:37
From: cpl593h
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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Craig: Thank you, my friend.
Marshall: I love the Bauhaus aesthetic of the Zaffiro, don't get me
wrong, but I have to entirely put function over design in this
instance. Go ahead and sentence me - I'm sure Andy's PID armada could
use a feather-dusting.
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 02:21:58
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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On 29 Jun 2006 18:59:37 -0700, "cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com > wrote:
>Craig: Thank you, my friend.
>
>Marshall: I love the Bauhaus aesthetic of the Zaffiro, don't get me
>wrong, but I have to entirely put function over design in this
>instance. Go ahead and sentence me - I'm sure Andy's PID armada could
>use a feather-dusting.
What function? I have a probe in the boiler and a PID controller. I
flush one or two ounces for heat-up, if the machine's been idle a
while. The shots are consistent and predictable. Are you sure you
aren't judging your machine by a thermocouple, instead of your palate?
You may be looking for a solution to a non-problem.
Marshall
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 22:10:44
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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"cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1151632777.157065.315850@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Craig: Thank you, my friend.
>
> Marshall: I love the Bauhaus aesthetic of the Zaffiro, don't get me
> wrong, but I have to entirely put function over design in this
> instance. Go ahead and sentence me - I'm sure Andy's PID armada could
> use a feather-dusting.
>
Anytime!, but I wasn't any help.. {:-/
Craig.
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 09:03:02
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
> Marshall: I love the Bauhaus aesthetic of the Zaffiro, don't get me
> wrong, but I have to entirely put function over design in this
> instance. Go ahead and sentence me - I'm sure Andy's PID armada could
> use a feather-dusting.
Quite appropriate response! The Bauhaus dictum was "Form follows function",
which means 'make it work is the first order of business, make it look good
secondly.' Dan
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 15:11:12
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:03:02 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:
>> Marshall: I love the Bauhaus aesthetic of the Zaffiro, don't get me
>> wrong, but I have to entirely put function over design in this
>> instance. Go ahead and sentence me - I'm sure Andy's PID armada could
>> use a feather-dusting.
>
>Quite appropriate response! The Bauhaus dictum was "Form follows function",
>which means 'make it work is the first order of business, make it look good
>secondly.' Dan
So, you're saying Mies would have designed an espresso machine with
thermal rope wrapped around its most beautiful and prominent feature?
Marshall "waiting for them to hang solar panels on the Seagram's
Building"
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 12:13:46
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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> So, you're saying Mies would have designed an espresso machine with
> thermal rope wrapped around its most beautiful and prominent feature?
Yes. Although he would have wrapped it oh, so well. ;) Actually, I'd expect
an industrial designer to do both. In this case incorporate the auxiliarly
heater within the grouphead. Dan
Not to mention, exposed electrical wiring is a hazard.
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 16:57:08
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:13:46 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:
>> So, you're saying Mies would have designed an espresso machine with
>> thermal rope wrapped around its most beautiful and prominent feature?
>
>Yes. Although he would have wrapped it oh, so well. ;) Actually, I'd expect
>an industrial designer to do both. In this case incorporate the auxiliarly
>heater within the grouphead. Dan
Misunderstood slogans aside, Bauhausians had no problem subordinating
functional concerns to esthetic goals. I worked on a deal in the
Seagram's Building for several days. Each morning a senior partner had
to get down on her knees to unlock the door of their suite. Mies had
placed the keyhole about an inch off the floor so as not to interrupt
the clean line of the door frame.
Marshall
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 19:47:12
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
Marshall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
>On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:13:46 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
><danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote:
>
>>> So, you're saying Mies would have designed an espresso machine with
>>> thermal rope wrapped around its most beautiful and prominent feature?
>>
>>Yes. Although he would have wrapped it oh, so well. ;) Actually, I'd expect
>>an industrial designer to do both. In this case incorporate the auxiliarly
>>heater within the grouphead. Dan
>
>Misunderstood slogans aside, Bauhausians had no problem subordinating
>functional concerns to esthetic goals. I worked on a deal in the
>Seagram's Building for several days. Each morning a senior partner had
>to get down on her knees to unlock the door of their suite. Mies had
>placed the keyhole about an inch off the floor so as not to interrupt
>the clean line of the door frame.
>
If there was a very good bar downstairs, this could indeed be an
example of form follows function! ;-)
Randy "crawl out and get me another drink" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 04:15:17
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:47:12 -0700, Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com >
wrote:
>Marshall <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:13:46 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
>><danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> So, you're saying Mies would have designed an espresso machine with
>>>> thermal rope wrapped around its most beautiful and prominent feature?
>>>
>>>Yes. Although he would have wrapped it oh, so well. ;) Actually, I'd expect
>>>an industrial designer to do both. In this case incorporate the auxiliarly
>>>heater within the grouphead. Dan
>>
>>Misunderstood slogans aside, Bauhausians had no problem subordinating
>>functional concerns to esthetic goals. I worked on a deal in the
>>Seagram's Building for several days. Each morning a senior partner had
>>to get down on her knees to unlock the door of their suite. Mies had
>>placed the keyhole about an inch off the floor so as not to interrupt
>>the clean line of the door frame.
>>
>
>If there was a very good bar downstairs, this could indeed be an
>example of form follows function! ;-)
>
>
> Randy "crawl out and get me another drink" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
There's a world-famous restaurant, but I doubt they'd seat a drunk on
all fours.
Marshall
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 13:22:53
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
> Misunderstood slogans aside, Bauhausians had no problem subordinating
> functional concerns to esthetic goals. I worked on a deal in the
> Seagram's Building for several days. Each morning a senior partner had
> to get down on her knees to unlock the door of their suite. Mies had
> placed the keyhole about an inch off the floor so as not to interrupt
> the clean line of the door frame.
>
> Marshall
Ahem, One instance does not make negate an entire concept. But I suspect you
already know this. Dan
FYI There are still entry doors with similar locks made to this day, so they
can't be THAT inconvenient.
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 04:13:45
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:22:53 -0400, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:
>> Misunderstood slogans aside, Bauhausians had no problem subordinating
>> functional concerns to esthetic goals. I worked on a deal in the
>> Seagram's Building for several days. Each morning a senior partner had
>> to get down on her knees to unlock the door of their suite. Mies had
>> placed the keyhole about an inch off the floor so as not to interrupt
>> the clean line of the door frame.
>>
>> Marshall
>
>Ahem, One instance does not make negate an entire concept. But I suspect you
>already know this.
Yes, And I also knew it had nothing to do with the Bauhaus.
Marshall
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 20:15:03
From: Simpson
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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In article <rPydnYQKYbxywDjZnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@insightbb.com >,
danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com says...
> > Misunderstood slogans aside, Bauhausians had no problem subordinating
> > functional concerns to esthetic goals. I worked on a deal in the
> > Seagram's Building for several days. Each morning a senior partner had
> > to get down on her knees to unlock the door of their suite. Mies had
> > placed the keyhole about an inch off the floor so as not to interrupt
> > the clean line of the door frame.
> >
> > Marshall
>
> Ahem, One instance does not make negate an entire concept. But I suspect you
> already know this. Dan
>
> FYI There are still entry doors with similar locks made to this day, so they
> can't be THAT inconvenient.
>
>
>
Sure they're inconvenient, but the designer never has to get on THEIR
knees to open them.
I wonder if someone who actually has experience with group heaters (see
topic header?) like Andy or Sasha might chime in here? The OP asked
questions the answers to which would be interesting to some of us.
Sasha, whose judgement I trust, waxed quite enthusiastic about the
process. Plus, it means two PIDs instead of one, so how can that be
anything but better?
Ted 'ooooh, shiny!' Simpson
--
email me at:
tee en jay ess eye em pee ess oh en one-the-number (at) cee oh em cee a
ess tee (dot) en ee tee
ANY other email addie will probably mean I spam-killed your message
unread, by accident, really.
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 16:56:02
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
Simpson wrote:
> I wonder if someone who actually has experience with group heaters (see
> topic header?) like Andy or Sasha might chime in here? The OP asked
> questions the answers to which would be interesting to some of us.
>
> Sasha, whose judgement I trust, waxed quite enthusiastic about the
> process. Plus, it means two PIDs instead of one, so how can that be
> anything but better?
I find the experience of having three PIDs on my espresso machine to be much
more satisfying than merely having two.
Sasha's group heater fixed a problem with a poorly-designed machine. His
experience is not really applicable to an E61.
OTOH, I bought a Zaffiro, PIDed it, and was appalled at how bad the temp
repeatability was even after PID. A group heater would be an improvement, IMHO.
--
-Andy S.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
http://tinyurl.com/eh0x
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 22:06:31
From: Simpson
Subject: Asso mods (was Re: Rope Heater thermal putty)
|
In article <COxpg.10966$O35.6382@twister.nyroc.rr.com >,
schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com says...
snip
> Sasha's group heater fixed a problem with a poorly-designed machine. His
> experience is not really applicable to an E61.
snip
I'm still dinking about with that two boiler Asso I snagged off ebay a
year ago. Sadly, it too has some significant design drawbacks but still
is probably my best bet to implement a PIDed brew boiler with preheat.
The biggest problem is that the brew head is quite distal from the
boiler and is connected only by being bolted to the same frame member.
It has GOT to run waaaaay cold. The group is hidden from view... this is
one of the ugliest machines I've ever seen. But at least a wad of putty
on the group won't make it any worse.
Where would one put the temperature sensor for the group head PID? In a
hole drilled in the group? On the group, under the putty, as far from
the heater as possible?
--
email me at:
tee en jay ess eye em pee ess oh en one-the-number (at) cee oh em cee a
ess tee (dot) en ee tee
ANY other email addie will probably mean I spam-killed your message
unread, by accident, really.
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Date: 03 Jul 2006 02:33:23
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Asso mods (was Re: Rope Heater thermal putty)
|
Simpson wrote:
> Where would one put the temperature sensor for the group head PID? In a
> hole drilled in the group? On the group, under the putty, as far from the
> heater as possible?
Hole drilled in the group would probably be ideal, otherwise, your second choice.
--
-Andy S.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
http://tinyurl.com/eh0x
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 03:07:41
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Asso mods (was Re: Rope Heater thermal putty)
|
On Sun, 2 Jul 2006 22:06:31 -0400, Simpson <nospam@nospam.spam > wrote:
>The biggest problem is that the brew head is quite distal from the
>boiler and is connected only by being bolted to the same frame member.
this was the problem with sasha's machine, and, indeed, it did run
cold.
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 12:45:40
From: cpl593h
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
You're right, abysmal is too strong. I do like my Zaffiro a lot, don't
get me wrong. I rarely stick to one blend or origin, so I'm often doing
steady sessions of tweaking and adjusting. For occasional daily shots,
the Zaffiro definitely works.
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 01:52:47
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
On 29 Jun 2006 18:43:58 -0700, "cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com > wrote:
>I am about to ugly up my e61 group with a rope heater in hopes of
>stabilizing the group temperature on my single boiler Isomac Zaffiro. I
>have everything together except for the epoxy putty.
>
>I went to Home Depot to look specifically for Oatey epoxy putty since I
>have heard of others using it successfully, but they had none there. I
>was hesitant to purchase any of the other putties there because none of
>them were rated above 200F.
>
>Where can I source heat conductive putty for my rope heater?
>
>And a tech support question - does the whole heater have to be
>encapsulated in putty? Should the rope heater touch the group directly
>or should there be a layer of heat putty between them?
That faint, high-pitched sound you hear is your Zaffiro screaming at
you not to do this. The usual sentence for this kind of esthetic crime
is a week in Andy Schecter's kitchen.
Marshall
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 21:50:24
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
"cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1151631838.411087.108050@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>I am about to ugly up my e61 group with a rope heater in hopes of
> stabilizing the group temperature on my single boiler Isomac Zaffiro.
> I
> have everything together except for the epoxy putty.
>
> I went to Home Depot to look specifically for Oatey epoxy putty since
> I
> have heard of others using it successfully, but they had none there. I
> was hesitant to purchase any of the other putties there because none
> of
> them were rated above 200F.
>
> Where can I source heat conductive putty for my rope heater?
>
> And a tech support question - does the whole heater have to be
> encapsulated in putty? Should the rope heater touch the group directly
> or should there be a layer of heat putty between them?
>
Hi Matthew, I believe kristi & Andy Schecter here & on the CG forums
also got the thermal putty from McMaster Carr. I'll check on the CG
forums for you.
Cheers!
Craig.
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Date: 29 Jun 2006 21:55:07
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:4gjeb4F1n345hU1@individual.net...
>
> "cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1151631838.411087.108050@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>>I am about to ugly up my e61 group with a rope heater in hopes of
>> stabilizing the group temperature on my single boiler Isomac Zaffiro.
>> I
>> have everything together except for the epoxy putty.
>>
>> I went to Home Depot to look specifically for Oatey epoxy putty since
>> I
>> have heard of others using it successfully, but they had none there.
>> I
>> was hesitant to purchase any of the other putties there because none
>> of
>> them were rated above 200F.
>>
>> Where can I source heat conductive putty for my rope heater?
>>
>> And a tech support question - does the whole heater have to be
>> encapsulated in putty? Should the rope heater touch the group
>> directly
>> or should there be a layer of heat putty between them?
>>
>
> Hi Matthew, I believe kristi & Andy Schecter here & on the CG forums
> also got the thermal putty from McMaster Carr. I'll check on the CG
> forums for you.
> Cheers!
> Craig.
Home Depot, plumbing section; kristi's post.
http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/196386
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 05:16:32
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
Marshall wrote:
> What function? I have a probe in the boiler and a PID controller. I
> flush one or two ounces for heat-up, if the machine's been idle a
> while. The shots are consistent and predictable. Are you sure you
> aren't judging your machine by a thermocouple, instead of your palate?
>
> You may be looking for a solution to a non-problem.
An apt and excellent observation, Marshall.
Will
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 05:14:59
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
You know, before you plunge headlong into these mods, you might want to
try some blind tasting to see if you can detect taste differences
associated with slight differences in the group temp. No need to get
all laboratory about this, just have a friend record the temps while
making the shots and bring cups to you in another room without giving
you any indication of which cup was associated with which group temp.
If you can consistently discriminate taste differences based solely on
temp variations, those variations being unknown to you, then you'll
have objective evidence upon which to base your decision to mod or not
to mod. If the taste of the finished product is your criterion of
discrimination, differing temps in the brew group, by themselves, do
not constitute an objective basis on which to mod the system. OTOH, if
your criterion of discrimination is not taste but temperature stability
as a thing-in-itself then none of this is necessary.
Will (who hears his students groaning)
cpl593h wrote:
> I also have a TC in the boiler and a PID controlling temperature. All
> other things beings consistent, the temperature never seemed to be as
> consistent as I thought it should be - as referenced by results in the
> cup. I recently installed a thermocouple in the brew channel (fitting
> installed where the hex screw used to be) and its readings, however
> arbitrarily related to brew temperature, seem to indicate that the
> group temperature does fluctuate quite a bit.
>
> What I really should do before I do something this drastic is actually
> measure the group temperature fluctuations throughout a daily cycle
> compared to actual brew temperature. Now how am I going to get my hands
> on a Scace...
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 16:52:51
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> You know, before you plunge headlong into these mods, you might want to
> try some blind tasting to see if you can detect taste differences
> associated with slight differences in the group temp. No need to get
> all laboratory about this, just have a friend record the temps while
> making the shots and bring cups to you in another room without giving
> you any indication of which cup was associated with which group temp.
> If you can consistently discriminate taste differences based solely on
> temp variations, those variations being unknown to you, then you'll
> have objective evidence upon which to base your decision to mod or not
> to mod. If the taste of the finished product is your criterion of
> discrimination, differing temps in the brew group, by themselves, do
> not constitute an objective basis on which to mod the system.
IMO, running such an experiment meaningfully is much more difficult and
time-consuming than you imply. It takes a lot of time, numerous repetitions,
and you risk serious caffeine overdosing.
Installing a group heater is not that difficult, and allows you to do things
that are otherwise impossible, eg, run the group temp 5F hotter than the
boiler temp.
> OTOH, if
> your criterion of discrimination is not taste but temperature stability
> as a thing-in-itself then none of this is necessary.
Well said.
--
-Andy S.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
http://tinyurl.com/eh0x
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 01:42:24
From: cpl593h
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
|
I also have a TC in the boiler and a PID controlling temperature. All
other things beings consistent, the temperature never seemed to be as
consistent as I thought it should be - as referenced by results in the
cup. I recently installed a thermocouple in the brew channel (fitting
installed where the hex screw used to be) and its readings, however
arbitrarily related to brew temperature, seem to indicate that the
group temperature does fluctuate quite a bit.
What I really should do before I do something this drastic is actually
measure the group temperature fluctuations throughout a daily cycle
compared to actual brew temperature. Now how am I going to get my hands
on a Scace...
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 17:45:05
From: cpl593h
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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Roll-down gates for retail spaces have keyholes at the bottom ;) Funny
conversation about Bauhaus, I had a good chuckle.
I've jerry-rigged a portafilter temperature probe to correllate group
channel water temperature and exit temperature. With a static boiler
temperature setting, the range of exit temperature is very wide. Sure,
I can flush water through the group to heat it up a little before a
shot, but there's still a lot of headroom from there.
I really don't think it would be harmful to install a rope heater to
hold the group at the maximum temperature capacity so that there is
little or no variance in group temperature.
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Date: 30 Jun 2006 17:31:03
From: JoeP
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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Dan Bollinger wrote:
> > So, you're saying Mies would have designed an espresso machine with
> > thermal rope wrapped around its most beautiful and prominent feature?
>
> Yes. Although he would have wrapped it oh, so well. ;) Actually, I'd expect
> an industrial designer to do both. In this case incorporate the auxiliarly
> heater within the grouphead. Dan
>
>
>
> Not to mention, exposed electrical wiring is a hazard.
I think they would've made the group saturated like all groups should
be and leave it at that. I still can't figure out why all groups aren't
saturated especially mine!
Joe
www.greencoffeebuyingclub.com
"freinds getting together splitting bags of coffee"
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 11:43:47
From: cpl593h
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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Thanks for the input, Andy. It's encouraging to me that you have
experimented with the Zaffiro and found its thermal stability abysmal.
The E61 definitely isn't a flawed design, but they were designed to be
attached to a heat exchanger and fed with water significantly hotter
than the brew temperature in a single boiler machine.
The desire to test variables other than boiler temperature began with
taste. After I PIDed the machine I noticed that the repeatability just
wasn't there and I had to turn the setpoint lower and lower during a
steady session because the shots kept tasting hotter and hotter. Then
when I'd return the setpoint to the desired value so the machine could
idle, the shots tasted cool even after a significant flush.
I had enough thermal instability headaches with the lever machines that
I ditched in favor of the Zaffiro - I'd just like it to be over and
done with.
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 19:41:21
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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On 1 Jul 2006 11:43:47 -0700, "cpl593h" <CPL593H@gmail.com > wrote:
>Thanks for the input, Andy. It's encouraging to me that you have
>experimented with the Zaffiro and found its thermal stability abysmal.
>The E61 definitely isn't a flawed design, but they were designed to be
>attached to a heat exchanger and fed with water significantly hotter
>than the brew temperature in a single boiler machine.
>
>The desire to test variables other than boiler temperature began with
>taste. After I PIDed the machine I noticed that the repeatability just
>wasn't there and I had to turn the setpoint lower and lower during a
>steady session because the shots kept tasting hotter and hotter. Then
>when I'd return the setpoint to the desired value so the machine could
>idle, the shots tasted cool even after a significant flush.
>
>I had enough thermal instability headaches with the lever machines that
>I ditched in favor of the Zaffiro - I'd just like it to be over and
>done with.
"Abysmal" is a pretty strong word.The machine was designed for home
use, not "steady sessions." Obviously, the more successive shots you
pour, the closer the brewhead and brew water will come to boiler
temperature.
In normal use I've found 101C, measured by the PID probe in the
boiler, after a 2-second flush, consistently yields 89-90C in the
portafilter (measured by a K thermocouple repeatedly placed on top of
an actual coffee puck and a cheapie multimeter). It ain't a Scace 'n'
Fluke, but I find the consistency encouraging. In any event, at four
shots a day, I have found it very consistent in the cup, as have
others.
That's not to say the Zaffiro is the Holy Grail. I pretty regularly
get better shots from my local roaster's Swift and Linea on the same
coffees. But, we're talking about consistency here.
Marshall
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 19:55:37
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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Marshall wrote:
> "Abysmal" is a pretty strong word.The machine was designed for home
> use, not "steady sessions." Obviously, the more successive shots you
> pour, the closer the brewhead and brew water will come to boiler
> temperature.
>
> In normal use I've found 101C, measured by the PID probe in the
> boiler, after a 2-second flush, consistently yields 89-90C in the
> portafilter (measured by a K thermocouple repeatedly placed on top of
> an actual coffee puck and a cheapie multimeter).
Mine is nowhere near that accurate. I wonder if the Zaff isn't one of those
machines that's put together in small batches, and each time they whip up a
batch, it's a bit different than the last time. In particular, the locations
of the inlet and outlet piping on my Zaff boiler seem rather odd.
--
-Andy S.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
http://tinyurl.com/eh0x
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Date: 01 Jul 2006 19:19:24
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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cpl593h wrote:
> I had enough thermal instability headaches with the lever machines that
> I ditched in favor of the Zaffiro - I'd just like it to be over and
> done with.
Ha. So would we all.
--
-Andy S.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
http://tinyurl.com/eh0x
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 06:04:05
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Rope Heater thermal putty
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Andy Schecter wrote:
> IMO, running such an experiment meaningfully is much more difficult and
> time-consuming than you imply. It takes a lot of time, numerous repetitions,
> and you risk serious caffeine overdosing.
Oh, indeed so, Andy. The method I described was dreck. That's why I
said I could hear my students groaning. If they posed such a method to
me....
But my point, as you recognized, was that one's buds should be the
ultimate judge.
Will
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