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Date: 19 Dec 2006 12:27:33
From: GoodPotatoes
Subject: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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re: Coffeegeek's editor's choice awards
http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/markprince/12-18-2006
Solis Crema SL-70 received the editor's choice award. I haven't seen
it receive much attention on here. From the description on CG, one
thing it has going is that the steam knob turns on the heating element
once you begin to steam. Definitely something that Silvia needs.
Aside from that, I search online for boiler capacity. Most websites
say that it has the "Largest boiler capicty" under $500, but don't
mention the actual capacity. Also, the portafilter in the picture
doesn't look to hefty.
Has anybody tried both? Thoughts? I want side-by-side intrashot
temperature stability graphs!
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 17:34:35
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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HOW did this happen?
dave
192
jim schulman wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2006 12:27:33 -0800, "GoodPotatoes" <sheagrove@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Has anybody tried both? Thoughts? I want side-by-side intrashot
> >temperature stability graphs!
>
> I've tried both. Both are equally stable, having boilers the same
> size. The Solis steamer is a little slower at the start, but has more
> legs; it is far easier for microfoam. The Silvia has a three way valve
> and recently, proper pressure controls. The Solis design is more
> thought out; the Silvia is built heftier.
>
> Espresso quality is about the same, but the Solis has a nonstandard
> basket and can't make as much per shot, nor allow one to play with
> different baskets.
>
> For people looking for an upgrade path, the Silvia is clearly better,
> since it can be endlessly modified very easily. The Solis is better
> for the non-hobbyist market, since it'll also do pods or badly ground
> coffee as well as can be done using the restrictor baskets.
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 20:41:25
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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On 2006-12-20, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
> HOW did this happen?
Yeah, how dare Mark not fall into rigid lockstep with the Sylvie
zealots of rfc. How dare he think for himself and express a
dissenting opinion, the traitor! Obviously succumbing to the
rampaging coffee monopoly/conspiracy that is Cafe West Distributors.
heh heh....
nb
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 15:31:15
From: notbob
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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On 2006-12-19, GoodPotatoes <sheagrove@gmail.com > wrote:
> Solis Crema SL-70 received the editor's choice award. I haven't seen
> it receive much attention on here. From the description on CG, one
> thing it has going is that the steam knob turns on the heating element
> once you begin to steam. Definitely something that Silvia needs.
The SL70 is the manual version of the SL90, all else being equal. CG
offers an older more detailed review here:
http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/detailed/cremasl70
While the Sylvie is, as Al points out, more robust over the long haul,
the Solis is a good machine. Yes, it may require some o-ring
replacement (I think I need a new porta-filter gasket), but what
machine doesn't? The bottom line: with the aftermarket
non-pressurized basket ($15), it's capable of consistantly making
great espresso.
nb
nb
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 21:01:55
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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I've tried both. No real comparison, Solis has 53mm pressurized filter
baskets and primarily plastic construction (including a couple of internal
plumbing joints that shouldn't be.) Boiler is 300ml brass. Steam valve DOES
have nifty internal microswitch, just great until shaft o-rings wear out and
water/steam starts to escape along shaft.
--
Alan
alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
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Date: 19 Dec 2006 14:50:40
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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On 19 Dec 2006 12:27:33 -0800, "GoodPotatoes" <sheagrove@gmail.com >
wrote:
>Has anybody tried both? Thoughts? I want side-by-side intrashot
>temperature stability graphs!
I've tried both. Both are equally stable, having boilers the same
size. The Solis steamer is a little slower at the start, but has more
legs; it is far easier for microfoam. The Silvia has a three way valve
and recently, proper pressure controls. The Solis design is more
thought out; the Silvia is built heftier.
Espresso quality is about the same, but the Solis has a nonstandard
basket and can't make as much per shot, nor allow one to play with
different baskets.
For people looking for an upgrade path, the Silvia is clearly better,
since it can be endlessly modified very easily. The Solis is better
for the non-hobbyist market, since it'll also do pods or badly ground
coffee as well as can be done using the restrictor baskets.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 07:21:28
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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PROVOCATIVE WORDS -- SOLIS LOVER!!
notbob wrote:
> Yeah, how dare Mark not fall into rigid lockstep with the Sylvie
> zealots of rfc. How dare he think for himself and express a
> dissenting opinion, the traitor! Obviously succumbing to the
> rampaging coffee monopoly/conspiracy that is Cafe West Distributors.
> heh heh....
>
> nb
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 15:29:14
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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jim schulman wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:25:30 GMT, Barry Jarrett
> <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote:
>
> When I got the Tea, I could make better shots on it than on the Solis.
> By now, I know enough so it's pretty irrelevent which machine I use,
> the shots have roughly the same quality. However, the Solis and Silvia
> are not quite as workable as the Tea. The Elektra Semi makes better
> shots than any of them, I don't know why.
I can't figure it out either, though I have to admit I haven't had the
level of success with the Elektra Semi auto that you have Jim, reading
the HB piece. I've gotten really good espresso out of it, but like many
machines, it's hit and miss. I seemed to have a bit worse luck when the
reservoir water heated up too much, compared to your results.
But your comments on the a Leva really opened up some thought for me
earlier this year - that concept of the "block of water" falling on the
dispersion screen / grouphead / portafilter vs. jetted flow is
something I really didn't think about before, and it makes a lot of
sense. Maybe that "best ever" shot I had some time ago was less of a
fluke than I thought. I should pull that lever machine out of storage
again...
Mark
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 18:31:06
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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On 20 Dec 2006 15:29:14 -0800, "CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com >
wrote:
>But your comments on the a Leva really opened up some thought for me
>earlier this year - that concept of the "block of water" falling on the
>dispersion screen / grouphead / portafilter vs. jetted flow is
>something I really didn't think about before, and it makes a lot of
>sense
The Elektra pump group bell on the Semi and the commercial line has a
double dispersion block which also get a very straight down water
path, similar to a levers. The Semi's singles taste very much like the
Leva (or quite similar in taste Peppina)., although with more
consistent crema abnd body. Finally, I've found the taste of open bowl
cupping brewing consistently better than using a French press with
identical brewing parameters. Carefully decanting the steeped brew
through a mesh filter (like a Swiss Gold) rather than plunging is also
better.
My take on the taste improvement is similar on all these: the drink is
less muddy (dullish bitter) tasting.
So I have a feeling that anything that agitates the grinds lowers the
coffee quality. I have no knowledge why this is, but I'm speculating
that some sort of oil or emulsion film develops around the grounds
when they are undisturbedl, and that this acts as a beneficial filter
on the brewing process. When the grounds agitate, this does not
happen.
It's a frustrating set of observations, since they aren't very
amenable to any sort of low tech experiment. Nor is there anything in
the literature on what happens on the surface of a grind particle
during brewing.
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 18:23:30
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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"jim schulman" <jim_schulman@ameritech.net > wrote in message
news:lfkjo25r45i3q4uqb1hj6uf3r3h3uq7lms@4ax.com...
> On 20 Dec 2006 15:29:14 -0800, "CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
<snip / >
> My take on the taste improvement is similar on all these: the drink is
> less muddy (dullish bitter) tasting.
>
> So I have a feeling that anything that agitates the grinds lowers the
> coffee quality. I have no knowledge why this is, but I'm speculating
> that some sort of oil or emulsion film develops around the grounds
> when they are undisturbedl, and that this acts as a beneficial filter
> on the brewing process. When the grounds agitate, this does not
> happen.
>
> It's a frustrating set of observations, since they aren't very
> amenable to any sort of low tech experiment. Nor is there anything in
> the literature on what happens on the surface of a grind particle
> during brewing.
Interesting theory Jim... my own experience gels with your observation in
that I've also noticed that the taste is better with French press if I don't
stir at all or minimally.
To be fair that's combined with going against most of the conventional
wisdom by grinding finer and steeping shorter (2 mins), if I stir as well
it tastes over-extracted ( maybe I should be steeping even less... ;-) )
Filtering through polyester a la Rasqual was also an eye opener taste-wise
which I guessed was due to letting more of the oils through than with paper
filters but I didn't care much for the rigamarole involved in making it
economic (washing the filter).
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 13:04:53
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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Coffee for Connoisseurs wrote:
> I've tried both. No real comparison, Solis has 53mm pressurized filter
> baskets and primarily plastic construction (including a couple of internal
> plumbing joints that shouldn't be.) Boiler is 300ml brass. Steam valve DOES
> have nifty internal microswitch, just great until shaft o-rings wear out and
> water/steam starts to escape along shaft.
It was a tough choice for me, but in the end, I opted for the Solis for
several reasons
1. Price - really important here since it's $150 cheaper than the
Silvia
2. Steaming overall - not just the microswitch, but the fact it heats
up faster to steam, steams better, steams longer, and transitions back
to brewing faster. I don't normally recommend steaming then brewing on
machines like the Silvia, but I've found it really easy with the Solis.
3. Noise - the SL-70's one of the quietest vibe pump machines I've ever
used.
All this would be moot if you couldn't (relatively easily) get
replacement non-pressurized baskets for the Solis. I've been trying,
without success to get Solis and the importers (Baratza / Cafe West) to
make them a part of the purchase instead of aftermarket. The best I was
able to do was convince Baratza to offer them as an optional
aftermarket item.
IF the Silvia were closer in price - it's old $395 price, for eg, it
would have been a no brainer. But the extra $100 made a big difference.
Alan, I have two SL-70s here - one's five years old, and seen a lot of
use. I've never had to replace those rings. I have had to take the unit
apart a few times though, because the feed tube from the reservoir to
grouphead sometimes comes unattached from the reservoir plug.
Mark
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 21:25:30
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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On 20 Dec 2006 13:04:53 -0800, "CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com >
wrote:
>2. Steaming overall - not just the microswitch, but the fact it heats
>up faster to steam, steams better, steams longer, and transitions back
>to brewing faster. I don't normally recommend steaming then brewing on
>machines like the Silvia, but I've found it really easy with the Solis.
it's been ages since i've played with a solis, but i've been quite
fond of them from the get-go. at the time they hit the market, the
machine-en-vogue was the saeco rio vapore which, iirc, had a retail
price of $450 (thanks, dana lu!). for several years, we used an SL90
for our over-caffeinated christmas parties.
i'd tested the steam output back then, and got 4 minutes of steam out
of both the 70 and 90, and about 3-1/2 minutes of that was strong
enough to froth milk.
does the 70 have the over-temp light, or is that just the 90? if the
boiler was above brew temp, then the light would flash. this allowed
us to froth first and then brew with rapidity and good results.
--barry "early solis adopter"
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Date: 20 Dec 2006 16:22:43
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Silvia in 2nd place. What?!
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On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:25:30 GMT, Barry Jarrett
<barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
>does the 70 have the over-temp light, or is that just the 90? if the
>boiler was above brew temp, then the light would flash. this allowed
>us to froth first and then brew with rapidity and good results.
The 70 has two button thermostats, one for steam (130C) and one for
heat (95C). The LEDS parallel the tstats, so glow when they are off,
and go off when the tstats call for heat (thus they are" boiler ready"
lights). The circuit is such that one or both ready lights can be on
no matter how the steam/brew switch is set. If one has finished
steaming, one can run water until the steam light goes off. This gets
the boiler temp to around 110C, which is close enough for a cappa.
When I got the Tea, I could make better shots on it than on the Solis.
By now, I know enough so it's pretty irrelevent which machine I use,
the shots have roughly the same quality. However, the Solis and Silvia
are not quite as workable as the Tea. The Elektra Semi makes better
shots than any of them, I don't know why.
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