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Main
Date: 15 Jun 2006 23:32:42
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Split Dosing
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Last year, someone posted on ac, they witnessed a barista changinging the
grind while the grinder was running. I assumed they were putting a courser
layer at the bottom of the basket, with a finer layer on top.
Nervous about adjusting a running grinder, I have tried splitting the dose
into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I believe.
The main advantage is to get an extra 2g of grounds packed (in a double) and
thus, an extra 3ml of coffee, before blonding.
Load say, 9g into the basket, distribute with fingertip, medium tamp, then
load the remaining 9g and then normal tamp. If you have a severe taper on
your basket, you may need to use a plastic spice tub, for the first tamp
(this is where the Isomac 52/58mm dumbell tamper is handy).You will note a
much more even flow from the spouts.You will need to go one click courser,
to compensate for the extra volume of grinds.
I no longer go finer on the second (top) grind, as I can detect little taste
change, but I would appreciate any obs from anyone who uses this split dose
with a tripple/bottomless setup, as I would like to try that one day soon?
Bertie
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 18:15:26
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:4fe5gbF1ijnjvU1@individual.net...
> Last year, someone posted on ac, they witnessed a barista changinging the
> grind while the grinder was running. I assumed they were putting a courser
> layer at the bottom of the basket, with a finer layer on top.
>
> Nervous about adjusting a running grinder, I have tried splitting the dose
> into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I believe.
> The main advantage is to get an extra 2g of grounds packed (in a double)
> and thus, an extra 3ml of coffee, before blonding.
>
> Load say, 9g into the basket, distribute with fingertip, medium tamp, then
> load the remaining 9g and then normal tamp. If you have a severe taper on
> your basket, you may need to use a plastic spice tub, for the first tamp
> (this is where the Isomac 52/58mm dumbell tamper is handy).You will note a
> much more even flow from the spouts.You will need to go one click courser,
> to compensate for the extra volume of grinds.
>
> I no longer go finer on the second (top) grind, as I can detect little
> taste change, but I would appreciate any obs from anyone who uses this
> split dose with a tripple/bottomless setup, as I would like to try that
> one day soon?
>
> Bertie
>
I can't speak to what you observed in Australia, however it is normal to
adjust a commercial grinder while it IS running, and generally less
effectual or ineffectual to adjust it when it is turned off. Perhaps all
you saw was a a barista adjusting the grind in a normal fashion after
observing a need to adjust the grind on preceding shot(s).
ken
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 18:34:23
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:4febetF1ic3ghU1@individual.net...
> "Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:4fe5gbF1ijnjvU1@individual.net...
>...I have tried splitting the dose
> > into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I
believe.
> >
>
> I can't speak to what you observed in Australia, ...
> ken
>
>
What are you trying to do Ken? Surely you troll...You'll rufffle the
feathers on all the aussies here, they don't want it to be thought that
Australia is "some parts of New Zealand" :-)
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Date: 15 Jun 2006 21:34:34
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Johnny" <removethis.huuanito@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:BTnkg.104580$iU2.6027@fed1read01...
>
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4febetF1ic3ghU1@individual.net...
>> "Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com> wrote in message
>> news:4fe5gbF1ijnjvU1@individual.net...
>>...I have tried splitting the dose
>> > into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I
> believe.
>> >
>>
>> I can't speak to what you observed in Australia, ...
>> ken
>>
>>
>
> What are you trying to do Ken? Surely you troll...You'll rufffle the
> feathers on all the aussies here, they don't want it to be thought that
> Australia is "some parts of New Zealand" :-)
>
>
have they been granted independance?
ken
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Date: 19 Jun 2006 09:35:52
From: Brent
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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No alas, Australia is still a NZ dependency :)
>>>...I have tried splitting the dose
>>> > into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I
>> believe.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I can't speak to what you observed in Australia, ...
>>> ken
>>>
>>>
>>
>> What are you trying to do Ken? Surely you troll...You'll rufffle the
>> feathers on all the aussies here, they don't want it to be thought that
>> Australia is "some parts of New Zealand" :-)
>>
>>
>
> have they been granted independance?
>
> ken
>
>
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Date: 16 Jun 2006 09:27:39
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Ken Fox" wrote in message >
"Bertie Doe" wrote in message
>> Last year, someone posted on ac, they witnessed a barista changinging the
>> grind while the grinder was running. I assumed they were putting a
>> courser layer at the bottom of the basket, with a finer layer on top.
>>
>> Nervous about adjusting a running grinder, I have tried splitting the
>> dose into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I
>> believe. The main advantage is to get an extra 2g of grounds packed (in a
>> double) and thus, an extra 3ml of coffee, before blonding.
>>
>> Load say, 9g into the basket, distribute with fingertip, medium tamp,
>> then load the remaining 9g and then normal tamp. If you have a severe
>> taper on your basket, you may need to use a plastic spice tub, for the
>> first tamp (this is where the Isomac 52/58mm dumbell tamper is handy).You
>> will note a much more even flow from the spouts.You will need to go one
>> click courser, to compensate for the extra volume of grinds.
>>
>> I no longer go finer on the second (top) grind, as I can detect little
>> taste change, but I would appreciate any obs from anyone who uses this
>> split dose with a tripple/bottomless setup, as I would like to try that
>> one day soon?
>>
>> Bertie
>>
>
> I can't speak to what you observed in Australia, however it is normal to
> adjust a commercial grinder while it IS running, and generally less
> effectual or ineffectual to adjust it when it is turned off. Perhaps all
> you saw was a a barista adjusting the grind in a normal fashion after
> observing a need to adjust the grind on preceding shot(s).
>
> ken
>
Ken, I think you read my post far too quickly - perhaps I should have split
the post into 2 threads and expanded them for clarity. BTW, I didn't mention
Australia.
The main point of the post, was the split dose and double tamp, thus
unabling an extra 2g of grinds in a double, plus maybe 3ml of pour before
blonding - a method popular in parts of NEW ZEALAND, I have read.
I was hoping it would generate some posts like "why does the split load and
double tamp, allow a larger dose and yet still leave a 3mm gap, below the
rim of the basket?"
Maybe the normal single load, single tamp method, used by most of us, is
SLIGHTLY flawed? Perhaps the top of the pack gets compressed more, by the
tamper, than the lower?
Obviously the split pack method is way too slow for the baristas, but us
amateurs on 3 or 4 doubles per day, can play around with this one?
Bertie
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Date: 16 Jun 2006 09:20:53
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:4ff8btF1isfgtU1@individual.net...
>
> "Ken Fox" wrote in message >
> "Bertie Doe" wrote in message
>>> Last year, someone posted on ac, they witnessed a barista changinging
>>> the grind while the grinder was running. I assumed they were putting a
>>> courser layer at the bottom of the basket, with a finer layer on top.
>>>
>>> Nervous about adjusting a running grinder, I have tried splitting the
>>> dose into two stages, a method popular in some parts of New Zealand, I
>>> believe. The main advantage is to get an extra 2g of grounds packed (in
>>> a double) and thus, an extra 3ml of coffee, before blonding.
>>>
>>> Load say, 9g into the basket, distribute with fingertip, medium tamp,
>>> then load the remaining 9g and then normal tamp. If you have a severe
>>> taper on your basket, you may need to use a plastic spice tub, for the
>>> first tamp (this is where the Isomac 52/58mm dumbell tamper is
>>> handy).You will note a much more even flow from the spouts.You will need
>>> to go one click courser, to compensate for the extra volume of grinds.
>>>
>>> I no longer go finer on the second (top) grind, as I can detect little
>>> taste change, but I would appreciate any obs from anyone who uses this
>>> split dose with a tripple/bottomless setup, as I would like to try that
>>> one day soon?
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>>
>>
>> I can't speak to what you observed in Australia, however it is normal to
>> adjust a commercial grinder while it IS running, and generally less
>> effectual or ineffectual to adjust it when it is turned off. Perhaps all
>> you saw was a a barista adjusting the grind in a normal fashion after
>> observing a need to adjust the grind on preceding shot(s).
>>
>> ken
>>
> Ken, I think you read my post far too quickly - perhaps I should have
> split the post into 2 threads and expanded them for clarity. BTW, I didn't
> mention Australia.
>
> The main point of the post, was the split dose and double tamp, thus
> unabling an extra 2g of grinds in a double, plus maybe 3ml of pour before
> blonding - a method popular in parts of NEW ZEALAND, I have read.
>
> I was hoping it would generate some posts like "why does the split load
> and double tamp, allow a larger dose and yet still leave a 3mm gap, below
> the rim of the basket?"
>
> Maybe the normal single load, single tamp method, used by most of us, is
> SLIGHTLY flawed? Perhaps the top of the pack gets compressed more, by the
> tamper, than the lower?
> Obviously the split pack method is way too slow for the baristas, but us
> amateurs on 3 or 4 doubles per day, can play around with this one?
>
> Bertie
>
Bertie,
I think if you reread your post you can see how it could be confusing unless
someone really studied it. I apologize for typing "New Zealand" in place of
"Australia;" that was truly a brain fart.
Baristas commonly change the grinder setting while it is running, and the
fact that you went from that observation to personal hypothesis is what
caused my confusion.
As to the point you raise, I think you will find the results to be so
variable and unrepeatable with this technique as to be difficult to
evaluate.
ken
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Date: 16 Jun 2006 17:52:25
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Ken Fox" wrote in message >>
> Baristas commonly change the grinder setting while it is running, and the
> fact that you went from that observation to personal hypothesis is what
> caused my confusion.
>
> As to the point you raise, I think you will find the results to be so
> variable and unrepeatable with this technique as to be difficult to
> evaluate.
>
> ken
>
Fair enough, I believe the 'top end' grinders, do prefer to be adjusted
while running.
If you get the opportunity over the w/end, I would appreciate your obs if
you try the split-dose,extra grounds? extra pour? It does need a firmish
tamp, after the midway dose
- a spice tub will do if there are taper difficulties.
Ken, I can't remember if you have a tripple, but I would also appreciate obs
from people with a tripple basket - perhaps an extra 3g is possible?
Bertie
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Date: 16 Jun 2006 11:18:09
From: David Lewis
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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On 2006-06-16 09:27:39 +0100, "Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > said:
> Maybe the normal single load, single tamp method, used by most of us,
> is SLIGHTLY flawed? Perhaps the top of the pack gets compressed more,
> by the tamper, than the lower?
> Obviously the split pack method is way too slow for the baristas, but
> us amateurs on 3 or 4 doubles per day, can play around with this one?
While it's true that the normal tamp does compress the top layer more,
it's been my experience that it's more effective to increase the load
by tapping the portafilter on the counter top in the middle of the
dosing. That seems to be less disruptive of the distribution. Whether
it's beneficial also seems to depend on the size and shape of the
basket. On the Techno, the 16 gram basket doesn't seem to like it,
where the 18 and 21 gram baskets do.
Best,
David
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Date: 17 Jun 2006 05:38:19
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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Date: 17 Jun 2006 09:08:31
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"D. Ross" > wrote in message
>
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Date: 17 Jun 2006 08:25:27
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:4fhrk2F1ilk7tU1@individual.net...
>
>
> The post was aimed at those few who do tamp, not at diehard 'no tampers'
> like yourself and Ken. The benefits for us 'flat earthers' and 'tampers'
> are (assume dbl basket).
>
> 1. More even distribution and better flow.
> 2.Extra 2g of grounds.
> 3. Extra 3ml of espresso (before blonding)
>
> It may only benefit a small % of tampers, but it's worth a try.
> My old machine was an Isomac SuperG and MP's CGeek article shows a pic of
> the irritating hex nut that supports the s/screen, which may cause
> channeling.
> By adjusting the split dose/double tamp method slightly, you can get a
> nice concave surface to the puck - without needing to purchase a special
> tamper.
> If anyone with a SuperG or similar machine, is interested, email me and I
> will send details.
>
> Bertie
>
>
There are differences in machines, and only having experience with Cimbali
Juniors over the last 10 years I can't comment on how an e-61 or other
design tolerates overstuffing the basket.
Being as I get 18g into a new style double basket, I don't think that
tamping harder would make a difference in the maximal dosing tolerated by my
machine (and probably many or most others). One has to remember that the
other variable is the grind and when you tamp lightly you must grind more
finely to get the same shot parameters. With the finer grind, the lighter
tamp may well allow you to get more or less the same quantity of grinds in
to the PF as you could get with a coarser grind/harder tamp.
One other observation related to this on my rotary machine (which in the
stock configuration lacks preinfusion): overloading the basket (in this
case 18g in a "16g" new style double basket) makes channelling much more
likely, presumably because of some interraction between rapid pressure ramp
up and an overloaded basket. Whether hard tamping of coarser grinds would
change this I do not know but I sincerely doubt it. 9 bar hitting the
grounds within a matter of a second or so is probably going to overwhelm the
impact of tamping.
When I modified the rotary junior with a delay timer, the machine no longer
channelled often with overloaded baskets. This behavior of channelling with
overloaded baskets was not observed in the vibe machine presumably due to
the slow pressure ramp up one finds with vibe pumps (6 or 7 seconds are
needed to get up to full pressure, and the puck has time to "adjust").
ken
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Date: 17 Jun 2006 00:12:44
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:44939530.48322574@localhost...
>
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Date: 17 Jun 2006 09:23:34
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"Ken Fox" wrote in message >> --
>
> Further complicating my espresso making routine with intentionally
> changing grinder settings mid grind is something I simply have no interest
> in doing; I sincerely doubt it would make any sort of positive difference.
>
Ken, in an earlier post, I accepted your fact, that the barista was simply
changing grind, between shots. I am now convinced that mentioning the grind,
was a mistake.
Bertie
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Date: 17 Jun 2006 16:01:45
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: Split Dosing
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"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:44939530.48322574@localhost...
>
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