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Main
Date: 02 Jul 2006 03:54:34
From: daveb
Subject: Starter machine -- no coupon
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New, not used. pump, etc. warranty.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FDDU0O/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-4315459-7157716?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=284507
Dave "xdr56h" b
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 13:21:26
From: Alan
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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"daveb" wrote
> New, not used. pump, etc. warranty.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FDDU0O/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-4315459-7157716?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=284507
Reviews for that model are found at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00006JL0S/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/104-7440067-3835929?ie=UTF8&n=1055398&s=home-garden
In addition to the fact that many of the reviews were less than enthusiastic
(lots of complaints about poor design, poor service, steam leaks, short
life-span, etc), the thing that caught my eye was that this machine operates
at 15 bar.
In quite a few previous posts it's been asserted that the ideal pressure for
producing espresso is 9 bar. The INEI cuts a little slack and prescribes 9
bar plus or minus 1.
If it is indeed the case that 9 bar is the ne plus ultra, what is the point
of a 15 bar machine? Following the 9-bar line of reasoning I've seen here,
that would seem to guarantee the production of an inferior espresso,
wouldn't it?
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 11:33:39
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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15 bar is roughly the maximum pressure created by a vibrating pump, the kind
of pump found in almost all home pump espresso machines (and even a few
commerial models). Virtually the same model pump (made by ULKA) is used by
all manufacturers. As you point out, 9 bar is all you need and want.
Notwithstanding that, some time ago some ignorant copy writer decided to
advertise that a certain machine had a "15 bar pump" on the theory that
"more is better" (15 >9, therefore 15 bar machine has more "horsepower" than
9 bar machine and is "better") and ever since then "15 bar pump" has become
the staple of bad descriptions associated with usually crummy machines. I
suppose if any manufacturer left the "15 bar" claim off the box, they'd lose
in the "arms race". These machines are crummy not because of the pump
itself (it's fairly easy to regulate the maximum pump down to 9 bar from 15
thru adjustment of the relief valve or even by getting the grind "just
right" and the pumps are all the same anyway, from the $100 machine to the
$1000 machine) but because as in the case of the Breville, the rest of the
machine features a low quality thermoblock instead of a proper boiler,
lightweight portafilters, and other deficiencies that will make the machine
brew at other than the ideal temperature. The original decision to tout "15
bar pump" as a feature makes about as much sense as touting a car based on
it having higher maximum tire pressure (40 psi tires!), but we seem to be
stuck with it.
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:qLPpg.77625$4L1.12766@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "daveb" wrote
>> New, not used. pump, etc. warranty.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FDDU0O/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-4315459-7157716?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=284507
>
> Reviews for that model are found at:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00006JL0S/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/104-7440067-3835929?ie=UTF8&n=1055398&s=home-garden
>
> In addition to the fact that many of the reviews were less than
> enthusiastic (lots of complaints about poor design, poor service, steam
> leaks, short life-span, etc), the thing that caught my eye was that this
> machine operates at 15 bar.
>
> In quite a few previous posts it's been asserted that the ideal pressure
> for producing espresso is 9 bar. The INEI cuts a little slack and
> prescribes 9 bar plus or minus 1.
>
> If it is indeed the case that 9 bar is the ne plus ultra, what is the
> point of a 15 bar machine? Following the 9-bar line of reasoning I've
> seen here, that would seem to guarantee the production of an inferior
> espresso, wouldn't it?
>
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 10:44:36
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <Ftqdne_FUuzJejrZnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> 15 bar is roughly the maximum pressure created by a vibrating pump, the kind
> of pump found in almost all home pump espresso machines (and even a few
> commerial models). Virtually the same model pump (made by ULKA) is used by
> all manufacturers. As you point out, 9 bar is all you need and want.
> Notwithstanding that, some time ago some ignorant copy writer decided to
> advertise that a certain machine had a "15 bar pump" on the theory that
> "more is better" (15>9, therefore 15 bar machine has more "horsepower" than
> 9 bar machine and is "better") and ever since then "15 bar pump" has become
> the staple of bad descriptions associated with usually crummy machines. I
> suppose if any manufacturer left the "15 bar" claim off the box, they'd lose
> in the "arms race". These machines are crummy not because of the pump
> itself (it's fairly easy to regulate the maximum pump down to 9 bar from 15
> thru adjustment of the relief valve or even by getting the grind "just
> right" and the pumps are all the same anyway, from the $100 machine to the
> $1000 machine) but because as in the case of the Breville, the rest of the
> machine features a low quality thermoblock instead of a proper boiler,
> lightweight portafilters, and other deficiencies that will make the machine
> brew at other than the ideal temperature. The original decision to tout "15
> bar pump" as a feature makes about as much sense as touting a car based on
> it having higher maximum tire pressure (40 psi tires!), but we seem to be
> stuck with it.
I don't claim any expertise, but I know what I like.
While I can see why a proper boiler would be better than a thermoblock
in a setting where you were producing many shots of espresso, it seems
to me that my Breville is producing an end product that is very good.
I do things differently than Breville and most other instructions say
though. I warm it up for about 30 minutes and run two shots of clear
water through prior to use. I use that water in the cup and place it on
the warmer which ensures the cups are plenty warm.
So the question is, would a boiler type change all that? And would the
end product be better in a one or two shot production, which is all I
use it for?
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 14:12:34
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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Certainly the stuff that you do sounds helpful (though too much flushing
might cool the thermoblock - what happens if you skip the flush?)
I don't know your machine specifically, but consumer thermoblocks in general
have a bad rep - even if the water starts out at the right temp it cools too
much during the course of the shot. Or the block is so restrictive that the
"15 bar" pump is reduced to below 9 bar by the time the water squeezes thru
the block. It is theoretically possible to design a thermoblock that will
heat 2 oz. of water "on the fly" but in practice the execution on the low
priced consumer machines always seems to fall short of comparable boiler
machines such as the Gaggia. An effective thermoblock would have to be
fairly massive to store up enough heat (you can't rely on just the power
being drawn over the 20 some seconds of the shot ). Enough metal to store a
lot of heat is expensive. Storing heat in the form of hot water is
inexpensive. Frankly I dunno why the manufacturers persist in making
thermoblocks when a boiler is clearly the better solution. The other problem
with a thermoblock is there's no effective way to make steam. In commercial
machines, of course, boilers and not thermoblocks are the rule.
I don't mean to offend you personally - I know people love "their" machines
and get offended if anyone denigrates them. But objectively there are better
machines out there, even at roughly comparable prices (for example the
Gaggia Espresso) I'm sorry to say.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-A4D868.10443602072006@individual.net...
> In article <Ftqdne_FUuzJejrZnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> 15 bar is roughly the maximum pressure created by a vibrating pump, the
>> kind
>> of pump found in almost all home pump espresso machines (and even a few
>> commerial models). Virtually the same model pump (made by ULKA) is used
>> by
>> all manufacturers. As you point out, 9 bar is all you need and want.
>> Notwithstanding that, some time ago some ignorant copy writer decided to
>> advertise that a certain machine had a "15 bar pump" on the theory that
>> "more is better" (15>9, therefore 15 bar machine has more "horsepower"
>> than
>> 9 bar machine and is "better") and ever since then "15 bar pump" has
>> become
>> the staple of bad descriptions associated with usually crummy machines.
>> I
>> suppose if any manufacturer left the "15 bar" claim off the box, they'd
>> lose
>> in the "arms race". These machines are crummy not because of the pump
>> itself (it's fairly easy to regulate the maximum pump down to 9 bar from
>> 15
>> thru adjustment of the relief valve or even by getting the grind "just
>> right" and the pumps are all the same anyway, from the $100 machine to
>> the
>> $1000 machine) but because as in the case of the Breville, the rest of
>> the
>> machine features a low quality thermoblock instead of a proper boiler,
>> lightweight portafilters, and other deficiencies that will make the
>> machine
>> brew at other than the ideal temperature. The original decision to tout
>> "15
>> bar pump" as a feature makes about as much sense as touting a car based
>> on
>> it having higher maximum tire pressure (40 psi tires!), but we seem to be
>> stuck with it.
>
> I don't claim any expertise, but I know what I like.
>
> While I can see why a proper boiler would be better than a thermoblock
> in a setting where you were producing many shots of espresso, it seems
> to me that my Breville is producing an end product that is very good.
>
> I do things differently than Breville and most other instructions say
> though. I warm it up for about 30 minutes and run two shots of clear
> water through prior to use. I use that water in the cup and place it on
> the warmer which ensures the cups are plenty warm.
>
> So the question is, would a boiler type change all that? And would the
> end product be better in a one or two shot production, which is all I
> use it for?
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 14:47:44
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <9vWdnfgb3dsOkTXZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> Certainly the stuff that you do sounds helpful (though too much flushing
> might cool the thermoblock - what happens if you skip the flush?)
>
> I don't know your machine specifically, but consumer thermoblocks in general
> have a bad rep - even if the water starts out at the right temp it cools too
> much during the course of the shot. Or the block is so restrictive that the
> "15 bar" pump is reduced to below 9 bar by the time the water squeezes thru
> the block. It is theoretically possible to design a thermoblock that will
> heat 2 oz. of water "on the fly" but in practice the execution on the low
> priced consumer machines always seems to fall short of comparable boiler
> machines such as the Gaggia. An effective thermoblock would have to be
> fairly massive to store up enough heat (you can't rely on just the power
> being drawn over the 20 some seconds of the shot ). Enough metal to store a
> lot of heat is expensive. Storing heat in the form of hot water is
> inexpensive. Frankly I dunno why the manufacturers persist in making
> thermoblocks when a boiler is clearly the better solution. The other problem
> with a thermoblock is there's no effective way to make steam. In commercial
> machines, of course, boilers and not thermoblocks are the rule.
>
> I don't mean to offend you personally - I know people love "their" machines
> and get offended if anyone denigrates them. But objectively there are better
> machines out there, even at roughly comparable prices (for example the
> Gaggia Espresso) I'm sorry to say.
No offense taken. If I hadn't wanted any input, I wouldn't have posted
here.
So let's take it to the next step. I am in the research stage of
improving my espresso experience at home. The Breville will suffice for
the time being.
So I am interested in a sub-$500 machine for the home that is very good
to excellent.
The Gaggia machine you mentioned has an aluminum boiler that I
understand has its own issues with corrosion. That makes sense,
dissimilar metals corrode, especially under heat.
I am currently looking at a couple of machines from FrancisFrancis. The
X5 seems like a great machine and it uses lots of brass, especially the
boiler. It uses both ESE pods and regular grounds. It is a bit over
the $500 mark I was looking for, but Illy has a pretty good deal,
assuming Illy stuff is good enough for the price.
The other FrancisFrancis that I'm looking at is the X6 Trio. This is a
new ESE pod only design. How are those pods?
Any other suggestions appreciated.
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 22:05:10
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 18:42:30
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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In article <44a841b3.155089897@localhost >,
ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>
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Date: 03 Jul 2006 02:20:44
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 21:47:14
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <44a86892.165040846@localhost >,
ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>
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Date: 03 Jul 2006 17:02:27
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
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Date: 05 Jul 2006 22:39:04
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Basically what they do in home machines is they have 2 thermostats - one for
brew temperature (circa 200F) and one for steam temperature (circa 230F) .
When you throw the "steam" switch it takes the brew thermostat out of the
circuit and puts the steam thermostat in line. The temperature of the
(small) boiler rises and steam forms. When you are done steaming you throw
the switch back to the other position and maybe release some steam to get
the temp back down again. It's not a long process either way because the
boilers are only a few oz.
In high end machines there is either a "heat exchanger" which is sort of a
sleeve that is immersed inside the (much larger) steam boiler that contains
the brew water, designed to pick up just enough heat from the steam to be
at brew temperature, or there are actually 2 separate boilers, one for steam
and the other for brew.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-6DC6D1.21471402072006@individual.net...
> In article <44a86892.165040846@localhost>,
> ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>
>>
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Date: 05 Jul 2006 22:23:02
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <zcidnS2eYM9U6jHZnZ2dnUVZ_tmdnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> Basically what they do in home machines is they have 2 thermostats - one for
> brew temperature (circa 200F) and one for steam temperature (circa 230F) .
> When you throw the "steam" switch it takes the brew thermostat out of the
> circuit and puts the steam thermostat in line. The temperature of the
> (small) boiler rises and steam forms. When you are done steaming you throw
> the switch back to the other position and maybe release some steam to get
> the temp back down again. It's not a long process either way because the
> boilers are only a few oz.
>
> In high end machines there is either a "heat exchanger" which is sort of a
> sleeve that is immersed inside the (much larger) steam boiler that contains
> the brew water, designed to pick up just enough heat from the steam to be
> at brew temperature, or there are actually 2 separate boilers, one for steam
> and the other for brew.
Good explanation, thanks.
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 17:27:15
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>So what's wrong with the FrancisFrancis line? Reviews seem excellent.
check the reviews at http://www.CoffeeGeek.com :
http://tinyurl.com/qg6vq
there are 91 there, then decide for yourself. Some people liked them,
but to say "the reviews are excellent" is stretching the facts- might
as well call the thing a weapon of mass destruction and be done with
it! ;-)
Most of the comments seem to come from folks not widely experienced
with espresso machines, and certainly not with good ones. Many comment
on how easy it is to make espresso with the pods and how good the
pod-coffee is... Uchhh.. One person stated,
-----------------------------------------------
Negative Product Points
Where to begin? Thermometer stopped working after 2 mos. PF handle
cracked. Steam wand started leaking and knob wouldn't close/shut off
(fixed with new o-rings for cheap). Frame rusting. Inconsistant
shots. Boiler wire housing melted (touched boiler and copper valve
tube), toggle switches flimsy (spun loose). "Ready light" not always
working.
Detailed Commentary
If you're serious about a good espresso, pass on the pretty looks and
get something that will last and make a decent espresso. Sometimes
takes several tries to prep it for steaming until it's ready.
-----------------------------------------------
I think that if you are mor interested in looks it is a nice machine.
You see these on counters of the "Homes of the rich and bitchy" all
the time, but they all look brand new and unused. You see them in
various TV shows on the kitchen counter, but never see them being
used. IMO, it is kitchen decor that tends to sort of make espresso.
If you are more interested in consistantly making quality espresso and
are ready to work at it, for the money you can do better. --- >IMO!
Randy "</editorial >" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 19:33:29
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <79oga2h68glss1o2ko0eievrl6bmvsvgpm@4ax.com >,
Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
> Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >So what's wrong with the FrancisFrancis line? Reviews seem excellent.
>
> check the reviews at http://www.CoffeeGeek.com :
> http://tinyurl.com/qg6vq
> there are 91 there, then decide for yourself. Some people liked them,
> but to say "the reviews are excellent" is stretching the facts- might
> as well call the thing a weapon of mass destruction and be done with
> it! ;-)
>
> Most of the comments seem to come from folks not widely experienced
> with espresso machines, and certainly not with good ones. Many comment
> on how easy it is to make espresso with the pods and how good the
> pod-coffee is... Uchhh.. One person stated,
> -----------------------------------------------
> Negative Product Points
>
> Where to begin? Thermometer stopped working after 2 mos. PF handle
> cracked. Steam wand started leaking and knob wouldn't close/shut off
> (fixed with new o-rings for cheap). Frame rusting. Inconsistant
> shots. Boiler wire housing melted (touched boiler and copper valve
> tube), toggle switches flimsy (spun loose). "Ready light" not always
> working.
>
> Detailed Commentary
>
> If you're serious about a good espresso, pass on the pretty looks and
> get something that will last and make a decent espresso. Sometimes
> takes several tries to prep it for steaming until it's ready.
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> I think that if you are mor interested in looks it is a nice machine.
> You see these on counters of the "Homes of the rich and bitchy" all
> the time, but they all look brand new and unused. You see them in
> various TV shows on the kitchen counter, but never see them being
> used. IMO, it is kitchen decor that tends to sort of make espresso.
>
> If you are more interested in consistantly making quality espresso and
> are ready to work at it, for the money you can do better. --->IMO!
>
> Randy "</editorial>" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
Strange, that is the first time all weekend that coffeegeeks.com would
even open a page, other than an error page.
Those are different reviews that what I had seen at
singleservecoffee.com and amazon.com.
Since the suggestions from here seem to think I should get a good
grinder first and then look for a replacement machine, I think I'll do
just that.
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 18:07:33
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>Those are different reviews that what I had seen at
>singleservecoffee.com and amazon.com.
>
They seem to mirror what has been discussed here on alt.coffee.
>Since the suggestions from here seem to think I should get a good
>grinder first and then look for a replacement machine, I think I'll do
>just that.
>
You won't regret it. And don't scrimp. Ten years from now, an
investement of $300-400 on a grinder will look pretty small when
compared to the quality of the coffee you will be making. And every
three or four years when you replace the burrs, you will spend about
as much as you would buying yet another cheap grinder with burrs that
are less sharp than the ones you just recycled, and that workhorse
will still be working as good as when you bought it!
"Good tools don't cost- they just lead to divorce."
-Some anon divorced guy with lots of tools I met
Randy "Just enough tools- still married" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 03 Jul 2006 00:56:38
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-0F38A5.19332902072006@individual.net...
> In article <79oga2h68glss1o2ko0eievrl6bmvsvgpm@4ax.com>,
> Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> >So what's wrong with the FrancisFrancis line? Reviews seem excellent.
>>
>> check the reviews at http://www.CoffeeGeek.com :
>> http://tinyurl.com/qg6vq
>> there are 91 there, then decide for yourself. Some people liked them,
>> but to say "the reviews are excellent" is stretching the facts- might
>> as well call the thing a weapon of mass destruction and be done with
>> it! ;-)
>>
>> Most of the comments seem to come from folks not widely experienced
>> with espresso machines, and certainly not with good ones. Many comment
>> on how easy it is to make espresso with the pods and how good the
>> pod-coffee is... Uchhh.. One person stated,
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> Negative Product Points
>>
>> Where to begin? Thermometer stopped working after 2 mos. PF handle
>> cracked. Steam wand started leaking and knob wouldn't close/shut off
>> (fixed with new o-rings for cheap). Frame rusting. Inconsistant
>> shots. Boiler wire housing melted (touched boiler and copper valve
>> tube), toggle switches flimsy (spun loose). "Ready light" not always
>> working.
>>
>> Detailed Commentary
>>
>> If you're serious about a good espresso, pass on the pretty looks and
>> get something that will last and make a decent espresso. Sometimes
>> takes several tries to prep it for steaming until it's ready.
>> -----------------------------------------------
>>
>> I think that if you are mor interested in looks it is a nice machine.
>> You see these on counters of the "Homes of the rich and bitchy" all
>> the time, but they all look brand new and unused. You see them in
>> various TV shows on the kitchen counter, but never see them being
>> used. IMO, it is kitchen decor that tends to sort of make espresso.
>>
>> If you are more interested in consistantly making quality espresso and
>> are ready to work at it, for the money you can do better. --->IMO!
>>
>> Randy "</editorial>" G.
>> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>>
>>
>
> Strange, that is the first time all weekend that coffeegeeks.com would
> even open a page, other than an error page.
>
> Those are different reviews that what I had seen at
> singleservecoffee.com and amazon.com.
>
> Since the suggestions from here seem to think I should get a good
> grinder first and then look for a replacement machine, I think I'll do
> just that.
That is the best route to go............You can have a *top of the line*
espresso machine and if you use an inferior grinder you would be very
disappointed in your results.
There have been cases, where people have replaced their grinders and have
been able to live with their existing machine !
BMC
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 22:51:23
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Corrosion in a Gaggia? Crack 'em, soak 'em, Dremel 'em, use Lite RTV in
addition to O-rings, button it back up & use for decades IF you remember to
descale your now spotless boiler on a regular basis. I've gone through a
progression of machines; Delonghi steamers, Gaggia's, Rancilio Silvia, La
Pavoni's, a La Cimbali, and a home brew put together from various sources.
Every one of them benefited from regular descaling because I don't care what
the boiler is made of there will be an accumulation of mineral deposits
sooner or later. Whether or not you're a non-flusher, four-flusher, or
back-flusher, don't forget to descale. It's the single most important factor
in having a long-lived machine.
David, I'm looking forward to hearing your view on the FF line. My daughter
loves the design but I raised her right - it's got to perform as well or
she'll pass it bye.
Robert (loves to tinker, may be getting a TR3 soon) Harmon
"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:44a841b3.155089897@localhost...
>
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Date: 02 Jul 2006 20:19:46
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-2D880B.14474402072006@individual.net...
> In article <9vWdnfgb3dsOkTXZnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@comcast.com>,
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>> Certainly the stuff that you do sounds helpful (though too much flushing
>> might cool the thermoblock - what happens if you skip the flush?)
>>
>> I don't know your machine specifically, but consumer thermoblocks in
>> general
>> have a bad rep - even if the water starts out at the right temp it cools
>> too
>> much during the course of the shot. Or the block is so restrictive that
>> the
>> "15 bar" pump is reduced to below 9 bar by the time the water squeezes
>> thru
>> the block. It is theoretically possible to design a thermoblock that
>> will
>> heat 2 oz. of water "on the fly" but in practice the execution on the low
>> priced consumer machines always seems to fall short of comparable boiler
>> machines such as the Gaggia. An effective thermoblock would have to be
>> fairly massive to store up enough heat (you can't rely on just the power
>> being drawn over the 20 some seconds of the shot ). Enough metal to
>> store a
>> lot of heat is expensive. Storing heat in the form of hot water is
>> inexpensive. Frankly I dunno why the manufacturers persist in making
>> thermoblocks when a boiler is clearly the better solution. The other
>> problem
>> with a thermoblock is there's no effective way to make steam. In
>> commercial
>> machines, of course, boilers and not thermoblocks are the rule.
>>
>> I don't mean to offend you personally - I know people love "their"
>> machines
>> and get offended if anyone denigrates them. But objectively there are
>> better
>> machines out there, even at roughly comparable prices (for example the
>> Gaggia Espresso) I'm sorry to say.
>
> No offense taken. If I hadn't wanted any input, I wouldn't have posted
> here.
>
> So let's take it to the next step. I am in the research stage of
> improving my espresso experience at home. The Breville will suffice for
> the time being.
>
> So I am interested in a sub-$500 machine for the home that is very good
> to excellent.
>
> The Gaggia machine you mentioned has an aluminum boiler that I
> understand has its own issues with corrosion. That makes sense,
> dissimilar metals corrode, especially under heat.
>
> I am currently looking at a couple of machines from FrancisFrancis. The
> X5 seems like a great machine and it uses lots of brass, especially the
> boiler. It uses both ESE pods and regular grounds. It is a bit over
> the $500 mark I was looking for, but Illy has a pretty good deal,
> assuming Illy stuff is good enough for the price.
>
> The other FrancisFrancis that I'm looking at is the X6 Trio. This is a
> new ESE pod only design. How are those pods?
>
> Any other suggestions appreciated.
Hi Lloyd,
If you have been hanging out on this n/g, for any length of
time, you are aware the* major link*, on the road to quality espresso, is
the grinder !
Regards,
BMC
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 16:38:09
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Next step (most important step) would be a high quality grinder such as a
Rancilio Rocky, Gaggia MDF or Mazzer Mini.
For a machine upgrade, perhaps a Rancilio Silvia, but upgrade the grinder
first.
Pods are expensive and stale, but offer convenience.
Getting hooked into the Illy deal is not a wise idea - the coffee is
likewise expensive and stale.
"Brian Colwell" <bcolwell@shaw.ca > wrote in message
news:CTVpg.115558$Mn5.60696@pd7tw3no...
>
> "Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:lloydparsons-2D880B.14474402072006@individual.net...
>>
>> So let's take it to the next step. I am in the research stage of
>> improving my espresso experience at home. The Breville will suffice for
>> the time being.
>>
>> So I am interested in a sub-$500 machine for the home that is very good
>> to excellent.
>>
>> The Gaggia machine you mentioned has an aluminum boiler that I
>> understand has its own issues with corrosion. That makes sense,
>> dissimilar metals corrode, especially under heat.
>>
>> I am currently looking at a couple of machines from FrancisFrancis. The
>> X5 seems like a great machine and it uses lots of brass, especially the
>> boiler. It uses both ESE pods and regular grounds. It is a bit over
>> the $500 mark I was looking for, but Illy has a pretty good deal,
>> assuming Illy stuff is good enough for the price.
>>
>> The other FrancisFrancis that I'm looking at is the X6 Trio. This is a
>> new ESE pod only design. How are those pods?
>>
>> Any other suggestions appreciated.
>
> Hi Lloyd,
> If you have been hanging out on this n/g, for any length of
> time, you are aware the* major link*, on the road to quality espresso, is
> the grinder !
>
> Regards,
> BMC
>
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 16:34:27
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <FY6dndVOG7IvszXZnZ2dnUVZ_rednZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> Next step (most important step) would be a high quality grinder such as a
> Rancilio Rocky, Gaggia MDF or Mazzer Mini.
>
> For a machine upgrade, perhaps a Rancilio Silvia, but upgrade the grinder
> first.
>
> Pods are expensive and stale, but offer convenience.
>
> Getting hooked into the Illy deal is not a wise idea - the coffee is
> likewise expensive and stale.
>
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll do some more reading and probably
asking too!
I was wondering how the Illy stuff was. I've never used it and the deal
locks you in with quite a bit of coffee.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 15:24:34
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <CTVpg.115558$Mn5.60696@pd7tw3no >,
"Brian Colwell" <bcolwell@shaw.ca > wrote:
>
> Hi Lloyd,
> If you have been hanging out on this n/g, for any length of
> time, you are aware the* major link*, on the road to quality espresso, is
> the grinder !
>
> Regards,
> BMC
I've only been reading for a few days, but I did notice some of that.
I currently have a Cuisinart Supreme Grind Automatic burr grinder. How
does that stack up?
But I am going to try the ESE pods also. How do they work?
I'm almost afraid to ask that here as it seems that lots of folks here
fly to the coffee farms, pick their own, wash it, roast it, grind it and
brew it... ;-)
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 13:35:00
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote:
>
>I've only been reading for a few days, but I did notice some of that.
>
..and you haven't read my website.
>I currently have a Cuisinart Supreme Grind Automatic burr grinder. How
>does that stack up?
>
I have a 'review' of the Cuisinart CCM-16PC in Chapter 79.
OK for some methods of coffee making, and grinding flaxseed, but for
espresso? To thumbs down, IMO. Most "beginner" espresso ginders start
in a price range about 5 times more than that grinder sells for. A
burr set for a decent grinder sells for what the grinder costs.
>But I am going to try the ESE pods also. How do they work?
>
Ewww... IMO. Pods for espresso? In general, they are marginal for
coffee making on a good day. For espresso, they can sometimes be OK if
they are really fresh, but it depends on your presonal standards.
Everything is relative.
>I'm almost afraid to ask that here as it seems that lots of folks here
>fly to the coffee farms, pick their own, wash it, roast it, grind it and
>brew it... ;-)
>
No more than we raise our own cattle or have our own soy farms. ;-P~
Life is too short to drink bad coffee.
Randy "note non-commercial URL below" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 16:33:17
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <62bga2tbqtnsqi2ftrmr2o4f0m5aklu6si@4ax.com >,
Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote:
> Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >I've only been reading for a few days, but I did notice some of that.
> >
> ..and you haven't read my website.
>
I read some there the other day...
>
> Randy "note non-commercial URL below" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
Thanks for the website, makes for some interesting reading. Hell, I
might even learn something! ;-)
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 17:27:54
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 13:16:07
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <44a80094.138418755@localhost >,
ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 09:39:28
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
In article <qLPpg.77625$4L1.12766@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com >,
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:
> "daveb" wrote
> > New, not used. pump, etc. warranty.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FDDU0O/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/102-4315459-7157
> > 716?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=284507
>
> Reviews for that model are found at:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00006JL0S/ref=cm_cr_dp_pt/1
> 04-7440067-3835929?ie=UTF8&n=1055398&s=home-garden
>
> In addition to the fact that many of the reviews were less than enthusiastic
> (lots of complaints about poor design, poor service, steam leaks, short
> life-span, etc), the thing that caught my eye was that this machine operates
> at 15 bar.
>
> In quite a few previous posts it's been asserted that the ideal pressure for
> producing espresso is 9 bar. The INEI cuts a little slack and prescribes 9
> bar plus or minus 1.
>
> If it is indeed the case that 9 bar is the ne plus ultra, what is the point
> of a 15 bar machine? Following the 9-bar line of reasoning I've seen here,
> that would seem to guarantee the production of an inferior espresso,
> wouldn't it?
I have been researching home espresso machines for about a week and
virtually all of the quality ones were 15 bar machines. Further
research indicated that while the pump ran at 15 bar, the operational
end of pushing the water through was at 8-9 bars.
This was true of everything from the Krups through the various other,
more expensive models, including the FrancisFrancis line.
I ended up buying the Breville ESP8XL because of consistent positive
reviews from many sources. The reviews were positive for both the
quality of the machine and the excellent customer service. More money,
but still inexpensive.
|
| | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 10:31:14
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Alan wrote:
> If it is indeed the case that 9 bar is the ne plus ultra, what is the point
> of a 15 bar machine? Following the 9-bar line of reasoning I've seen here,
> that would seem to guarantee the production of an inferior espresso,
> wouldn't it?
Keeping in mind that the pressure developed during any given shot
depends upon the resistance of the puck, having a machine *capable* of
15 (or 20 or 30) bar doesn't prevent your shots from being pulled at
exactly 9 bar.
Happy to expand on that, if it is too succinct.
--
St. John
"I am not now, and never have been, a girlfriend of Henry Kissinger."
-Gloria Steinem
|
| | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 16:17:17
From: Alan
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
"St. John Smythe" wrote
> Alan wrote:
>> If it is indeed the case that 9 bar is the ne plus ultra, what is the
>> point
>> of a 15 bar machine? Following the 9-bar line of reasoning I've seen
>> here,
>> that would seem to guarantee the production of an inferior espresso,
>> wouldn't it?
>
> Keeping in mind that the pressure developed during any given shot
> depends upon the resistance of the puck, having a machine *capable* of
> 15 (or 20 or 30) bar doesn't prevent your shots from being pulled at
> exactly 9 bar.
>
> Happy to expand on that, if it is too succinct.
Yes, please expand on that, if you don't mind. If I understand correctly
what you've said about puck resistance, are you saying that a coarser grind
and a lighter tamp would result in a bar effectively lower than that
produced by the pump? And, if that's true, would the converse also be true
(i.e. would a finer grind and a heavier tamp result in a "bar" which is
effectively higher than the pump rating? And, lastly, if puck resistance
determines the "bar", on what standard basis are machines rated in terms of
"bar"?
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 12:40:51
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
Alan wrote:
> Yes, please expand on that, if you don't mind. If I understand correctly
> what you've said about puck resistance, are you saying that a coarser grind
> and a lighter tamp would result in a bar effectively lower than that
> produced by the pump? And, if that's true, would the converse also be true
> (i.e. would a finer grind and a heavier tamp result in a "bar" which is
> effectively higher than the pump rating? And, lastly, if puck resistance
> determines the "bar", on what standard basis are machines rated in terms of
> "bar"?
They seem to be rated in terms of the maximum pressure the machine can
develop in a no-flow condition (e.g., blind portafilter).
The pump (and associated relief valve, if any) sets the maximum pressure
that can occur; the density of the puck determines the working pressure,
which will always be less than what the pump is capable of developing.
With a coarse grind and light tamp, there will be hardly any pressure
developed between the pump and the puck (which is where it is measured;
with a fine grind and heavy tamp, the pressure could go the max, in this
case, 15 bar.
--
St. John
The one good thing about repeating your mistakes is that you know when
to cringe.
|
| | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 09:40:57
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:
>
>Yes, please expand on that, if you don't mind. If I understand correctly
>what you've said about puck resistance, are you saying that a coarser grind
>and a lighter tamp would result in a bar effectively lower than that
>produced by the pump? And, if that's true, would the converse also be true
>(i.e. would a finer grind and a heavier tamp result in a "bar" which is
>effectively higher than the pump rating? And, lastly, if puck resistance
>determines the "bar", on what standard basis are machines rated in terms of
>"bar"?
>
If the subject is ultimate brew force developed by the pump during a
shot, there are three basic factors that "regulate" that:
1) The maximum amount of pressure that the pump can develop
2) The resistance to the water flow that the puck presents to the flow
of water
3) The pressure at which the over-pressure relief valve (OPV) opens.
The highest force developed is regulated by the OPV. Just like
virtually all air compressors and water heaters have some device that
opens if internal pressure exceeds some predetermined value, the OPV
in the espresso machine will dump excess pressure (by opening and
sending excess water back into the system) so that regardless as to
the pressure the pump can develop, the highest force is that of the
OPVs opening setting. Usually about 9BAR depending on the accuracy of
the valve. The resistance of he coffee can only get the machine to
attain the OPV's force. It can be ground too coarse and lower the
force by allowing the water to run freely through the portafilter, but
it can't "force" the machine to run higher that the OPVs setting.
Of course, all this assumes that the machine's OPV is set properly,
designed decently, and has been maintained (not crusted over with
corrosion of mineral build up from hard water).
Randy "don't put a brick on the pressure cooker" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
#2 can only help attain the force from attain the
|
| | | | | |
Date: 02 Jul 2006 17:39:11
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
And if you want to pressure test your espresso machine clamp off the tube
from the OPV, use a blank filter, and stand back. You'll SOON find out where
the weak link in your system is. I actually use this test, sort of, when I
rebuild machines. I have a pressure valve attached to a blank filter that I
use with a PF with a hole punched in it (not a naked, but an aluminum PF
with a small hole). If I'm not getting enough pressure this will let me know
it. I also do a water deficit test but that's done with no load on the pump.
I'm more interested in knowing the pressure when the boiler is at brew/steam
temps & with resistance at the PF.
Not surprising to me, but the maximum pressure is attained when the steam
thermostat is active. My guess is that the OPV is only effectively dealing
with pump pressure, not boiler pressure. This can be evidenced by flipping
the steam switch & letting the boiler heat up. Then flip the brew switch &
you'll see hot water coming out wherever the system is weakest.
Anyway, the pump pressure is only one of the factors that can cause a seal
to blow out in these machines. Dig deeper & you'll find they're not well
designed at all. They're all built using 50 year old boiler/pump technology
& there really hasn't been anything but cosmetic changes from one brand to
the next for 40 years (since the Baby in the 60's). This includes all
semi-auto, auto, & super-auto machines boiler/pump systems regardless of
make.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:38tfa2pgiiadljpskc9t9utkcfflk709es@4ax.com...
>
> If the subject is ultimate brew force developed by the pump during a
> shot, there are three basic factors that "regulate" that:
>
> 1) The maximum amount of pressure that the pump can develop
> 2) The resistance to the water flow that the puck presents to the flow
> of water
> 3) The pressure at which the over-pressure relief valve (OPV) opens.
>
> The highest force developed is regulated by the OPV. Just like
> virtually all air compressors and water heaters have some device that
> opens if internal pressure exceeds some predetermined value, the OPV
> in the espresso machine will dump excess pressure (by opening and
> sending excess water back into the system) so that regardless as to
> the pressure the pump can develop, the highest force is that of the
> OPVs opening setting. Usually about 9BAR depending on the accuracy of
> the valve. The resistance of he coffee can only get the machine to
> attain the OPV's force. It can be ground too coarse and lower the
> force by allowing the water to run freely through the portafilter, but
> it can't "force" the machine to run higher that the OPVs setting.
>
> Of course, all this assumes that the machine's OPV is set properly,
> designed decently, and has been maintained (not crusted over with
> corrosion of mineral build up from hard water).
>
> Randy "don't put a brick on the pressure cooker" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
>
>
> #2 can only help attain the force from attain the
|
| |
Date: 03 Jul 2006 05:31:53
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Starter machine -- no coupon
|
I certainly agree with the advice you have gotten here. However, if
you are dead set and determined to use pods, try the Nespresso system.
We have one at the office and, while it does not produce really good
espresso, it is infinitely repeatable, easy to use, and makes a better
cup than any of the paper pods that I've experienced.
But....a good grinder (first) and (then) a good boiler machine remain
your best bet if you don't insist on the convenience of the pods.
Will
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> In article <79oga2h68glss1o2ko0eievrl6bmvsvgpm@4ax.com>,
> Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Lloyd Parsons <lloydparsons@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> > >So what's wrong with the FrancisFrancis line? Reviews seem excellent.
> >
> > check the reviews at http://www.CoffeeGeek.com :
> > http://tinyurl.com/qg6vq
> > there are 91 there, then decide for yourself. Some people liked them,
> > but to say "the reviews are excellent" is stretching the facts- might
> > as well call the thing a weapon of mass destruction and be done with
> > it! ;-)
> >
> > Most of the comments seem to come from folks not widely experienced
> > with espresso machines, and certainly not with good ones. Many comment
> > on how easy it is to make espresso with the pods and how good the
> > pod-coffee is... Uchhh.. One person stated,
> > -----------------------------------------------
> > Negative Product Points
> >
> > Where to begin? Thermometer stopped working after 2 mos. PF handle
> > cracked. Steam wand started leaking and knob wouldn't close/shut off
> > (fixed with new o-rings for cheap). Frame rusting. Inconsistant
> > shots. Boiler wire housing melted (touched boiler and copper valve
> > tube), toggle switches flimsy (spun loose). "Ready light" not always
> > working.
> >
> > Detailed Commentary
> >
> > If you're serious about a good espresso, pass on the pretty looks and
> > get something that will last and make a decent espresso. Sometimes
> > takes several tries to prep it for steaming until it's ready.
> > -----------------------------------------------
> >
> > I think that if you are mor interested in looks it is a nice machine.
> > You see these on counters of the "Homes of the rich and bitchy" all
> > the time, but they all look brand new and unused. You see them in
> > various TV shows on the kitchen counter, but never see them being
> > used. IMO, it is kitchen decor that tends to sort of make espresso.
> >
> > If you are more interested in consistantly making quality espresso and
> > are ready to work at it, for the money you can do better. --->IMO!
> >
> > Randy "</editorial>" G.
> > http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
> >
> >
>
> Strange, that is the first time all weekend that coffeegeeks.com would
> even open a page, other than an error page.
>
> Those are different reviews that what I had seen at
> singleservecoffee.com and amazon.com.
>
> Since the suggestions from here seem to think I should get a good
> grinder first and then look for a replacement machine, I think I'll do
> just that.
|
|
