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Main
Date: 09 Sep 2006 22:28:22
From: Harry Moos
Subject: The Siren Livia
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I have lusted for a Livia, but could only afford [or justify] a Gaggia
Coffee. Now that I could afford [but still not justify] a Livia, I really
wonder if it will produce better tasting espresso -- or is it simply more
convenient, timesaving, or attractive. Am I being seduced by the stainless
steel, the lights and gauges, the exclusivity of it? After all, I am the
only espresso drinker in the house. None of my friends drink espresso; a
few will drink cappas [the closest Starbucks is 150 miles]. So it's two,
maybe three, shots per day for me unless I'm drinking drip coffee with
company. Would I eventually regret buying a Livia? [And I'm not tempted
by similar machines. I had a Rancilio Nancy, and my Gaggia performs better,
so I'm not drawn to the Silvia like I am to the Livia.]
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 22:28:30
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:gr6dnRG6cNPaG57YnZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
>I have lusted for a Livia, but could only afford [or justify] a Gaggia
>Coffee. Now that I could afford [but still not justify] a Livia, I really
>wonder if it will produce better tasting espresso -- or is it simply more
>convenient, timesaving, or attractive. Am I being seduced by the stainless
>steel, the lights and gauges, the exclusivity of it? After all, I am the
>only espresso drinker in the house. None of my friends drink espresso; a
>few will drink cappas [the closest Starbucks is 150 miles]. So it's two,
>maybe three, shots per day for me unless I'm drinking drip coffee with
>company. Would I eventually regret buying a Livia? [And I'm not tempted
>by similar machines. I had a Rancilio Nancy, and my Gaggia performs
>better, so I'm not drawn to the Silvia like I am to the Livia.]
There was a time when the field of home machines was very limited, with the
Silvia representing the standout choice for a modestly expensive home
machine, and the Livia was perceived to be the best high end machine. I
think it is fair to say that neither of these machines would be looked at
this way in 2006, mostly because there are so many other choices and because
neither represents exceptional value at current pricing.
What has happened in the upper end home market has eclipsed the Livia making
it a very poor value for what it is; you can have essentially the same
machine, or at least the same internals for hundreds less, in the Bezerra
BZ02S for $750 or thereabouts. It would be hard to know where to start in
listing high end home machines presenting better value than the Livia; there
are so many it would take half an hour to type the names of all the
different models out there. You could start with almost an generic e-61 box
that you could find for sale on the websites of internet dealers we know and
love like Chris's Coffee, WLL, 1st Line, and EPNW. Hell, for around the
same price as the Livia you could buy a plumbed in rotary pump machine.
If you want to see what has happened to the popularity of the Livia, just
perform a search on the word "Livia" on the google alt.coffee archives.
What you will find is that there were tons of posts on this machine years
ago but progressively fewer and fewer over time to the point where you
barely see them anymore. Pasquini has established a brand name for this
machine and without question a lot of them are still sold, but the people
who are sufficiently interested in espresso to participate in this ng and in
online forums have moved on to other machines they see as representing much
better bang for the buck.
ken
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 05:56:05
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:28:30 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>If you want to see what has happened to the popularity of the Livia, just
>perform a search on the word "Livia" on the google alt.coffee archives.
>What you will find is that there were tons of posts on this machine years
>ago but progressively fewer and fewer over time to the point where you
>barely see them anymore. Pasquini has established a brand name for this
>machine and without question a lot of them are still sold, but the people
>who are sufficiently interested in espresso to participate in this ng and in
>online forums have moved on to other machines they see as representing much
>better bang for the buck.
>
>ken
I think their heyday was a couple of years ago, when Peet's had them
on display in all their shops and Mark Prince was having his public
love affair with his.
Marshall
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 00:03:09
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:46a7g2tu4siq8hcat3feakm1mfotk7pe19@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2006 22:28:30 -0600, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>If you want to see what has happened to the popularity of the Livia, just
>>perform a search on the word "Livia" on the google alt.coffee archives.
>>What you will find is that there were tons of posts on this machine years
>>ago but progressively fewer and fewer over time to the point where you
>>barely see them anymore. Pasquini has established a brand name for this
>>machine and without question a lot of them are still sold, but the people
>>who are sufficiently interested in espresso to participate in this ng and
>>in
>>online forums have moved on to other machines they see as representing
>>much
>>better bang for the buck.
>>
>>ken
>
> I think their heyday was a couple of years ago, when Peet's had them
> on display in all their shops and Mark Prince was having his public
> love affair with his.
>
> Marshall
Mark's had (his first, maybe current also) LM for well more than 2 years.
Mark's enthusiastic Livia related posts (with quick google archives
confirmation) were in the 2000-2002 timeframe, which would be at least 4
years ago. He is probably using it prop open the door to his garage these
days.
ken
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 16:33:35
From: Fookoo Network
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:03:09 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>Mark's had (his first, maybe current also) LM for well more than 2 years.
>Mark's enthusiastic Livia related posts (with quick google archives
>confirmation) were in the 2000-2002 timeframe, which would be at least 4
>years ago. He is probably using it prop open the door to his garage these
>days.
>
>ken
This is a bit insulting as I would challenge you to find someone who
has used it as a prop to open a garage door.
On the poster's main thrust, yes there are better machines today in a
similar price range. Espresso will hardly ever be a hobby that will
justifable from an economic, financial standpoint, meaning that it
will be a very, very long time before one puts enough beans, costwise,
through the espresso machine that is anything close to the cost of the
espresso machine and grinder. The Livia is probably one of the more
difficult machines to actually use and get something approaching very
good shots because the learning curve is very steep. Aside from
buying an appropriate grinder, as in none of the $200 types, the Livia
is quite unforgiving of poor technique - think tamping. If utilized
for commercially acceptable espresso, ala what one can find at Peet's,
that's very easy to do. But if you want to elevate your espresso to
the next level, that's a totally different story.
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 21:43:00
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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"Fookoo Network" <nopam.fookoo@earthlink.net > wrote in message
news:fd69g2t63gs6pna684s25a3qanuu2vnl6v@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 00:03:09 -0600, "Ken Fox"
> <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Mark's had (his first, maybe current also) LM for well more than 2 years.
>>Mark's enthusiastic Livia related posts (with quick google archives
>>confirmation) were in the 2000-2002 timeframe, which would be at least 4
>>years ago. He is probably using it prop open the door to his garage these
>>days.
>>
>>ken
>
> This is a bit insulting as I would challenge you to find someone who
> has used it as a prop to open a garage door.
>
> On the poster's main thrust, yes there are better machines today in a
> similar price range. Espresso will hardly ever be a hobby that will
> justifable from an economic, financial standpoint, meaning that it
> will be a very, very long time before one puts enough beans, costwise,
> through the espresso machine that is anything close to the cost of the
> espresso machine and grinder. The Livia is probably one of the more
> difficult machines to actually use and get something approaching very
> good shots because the learning curve is very steep. Aside from
> buying an appropriate grinder, as in none of the $200 types, the Livia
> is quite unforgiving of poor technique - think tamping. If utilized
> for commercially acceptable espresso, ala what one can find at Peet's,
> that's very easy to do. But if you want to elevate your espresso to
> the next level, that's a totally different story.
I don't think that the Livia could withstand the punishing force of a GARAGE
DOOR, per se, if by that you mean the large doors that open up vertically in
front a garage. Rather, I meant the door TO HIS GARAGE, as in the door from
the house that goes into the garage.
I apologize for any confusion.
ken
;-)
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 22:27:42
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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"Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>I don't think that the Livia could withstand the punishing force of a GARAGE
>DOOR, per se, if by that you mean the large doors that open up vertically in
>front a garage. Rather, I meant the door TO HIS GARAGE, as in the door from
>the house that goes into the garage.
>
>I apologize for any confusion.
>
>ken
Well, if we were talking about an interior door then possibly, but the
door leading into the garage would be a solid door and these are
usually mounted with self-closing hinges. I think that the machine
would suffer damage in this case. At least that would be the case in
the US under most building codes, but in Canada it might not be so.
Maybe Greg and Andy can do some quantitative testing and get back to
us on this one? ;-)
Randy "Slamming Door Coffee Company" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 22:16:15
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 22:27:42 -0700, Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com >
wrote:
>Well, if we were talking about an interior door then possibly, but the
>door leading into the garage would be a solid door and these are
>usually mounted with self-closing hinges. I think that the machine
>would suffer damage in this case.
i have a couple of marzoccos available for doorstop work.
--barry "at least until they're rebuilt"
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 15:47:12
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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Barry Jarrett <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote:
>i have a couple of marzoccos available for doorstop work.
>
>--barry "at least until they're rebuilt"
"Mind the La Marzocco on the way out"
Has a certain ambiance about it, no?
Randy "two-group doorstop" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 21:38:06
From: Fookoo Network
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 21:43:00 -0600, "Ken Fox"
<morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com > wrote:
>>I don't think that the Livia could withstand the punishing force of a GARAGE
>DOOR, per se, if by that you mean the large doors that open up vertically in
>front a garage. Rather, I meant the door TO HIS GARAGE, as in the door from
>the house that goes into the garage.
>
>I apologize for any confusion.
>
>ken
>;-)
>
No doubt your own espresso machine would make even a better door stop
than a Livia with the upcoming La Marzocco GS/3. : >))
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 10:00:56
From: daveb
Subject: Re: The call of chrome
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probably will make a better cup than a Gaggia
what is your grinder?????
we are just saying there are way better machines out there than the
livia in the $1500 class.
Machines in the $1500 class are NOT comparable to $500 Gaggias.
you like chrome -- then buy it.
d
113
Harry Moos wrote:
> But will it make a better cup of espresso than my Gaggia? The cup I'm
> drinking right now is pretty good. The process is fairly simple with the
> Gaggia. So would an upgrade of any kind just be for convenience or
> self-indulgence? This area [western Kansas] is home of the "65 cent cup of
> coffee, unlimited refills." Espresso is something people have tasted on
> trips [and generally didn't like]. So any espresso machine is a curiosity.
> The shiny Livia would attract more attention than my "plain Jane" black
> Gaggia, I'm sure. Is that its appeal? As far as comparing it to other
> machines, there are a lot of ugly ones out there. The Livia is my vision of
> a beautiful machine.
>
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 05:48:43
From: daveb
Subject: Re: The call of chrome
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I have to agree with some of what Fox says (!!)
and
1) the livia is a HX machine with all the disadvantages inherent
2) all that chrome costs big money
3) it is way over priced for what it is. and service AFAIK, is pretty
much only available from Pasquini in L.A.
there are many other better choices in HX, for far less.. . . .
a loaded livia will cost as much as a great dual boiler machine - i.e.
the La spaziale Vivaldi. call chris and make a deal.
Dave
112
Harry Moos wrote:
> I have lusted for a Livia, but could only afford [or justify] a Gaggia
> Coffee. Now that I could afford [but still not justify] a Livia, I really
> wonder if it will produce better tasting espresso -- or is it simply more
> convenient, timesaving, or attractive. Am I being seduced by the stainless
> steel, the lights and gauges, the exclusivity of it?
[exclusivity?]
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 08:45:08
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: The call of chrome
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But will it make a better cup of espresso than my Gaggia? The cup I'm
drinking right now is pretty good. The process is fairly simple with the
Gaggia. So would an upgrade of any kind just be for convenience or
self-indulgence? This area [western Kansas] is home of the "65 cent cup of
coffee, unlimited refills." Espresso is something people have tasted on
trips [and generally didn't like]. So any espresso machine is a curiosity.
The shiny Livia would attract more attention than my "plain Jane" black
Gaggia, I'm sure. Is that its appeal? As far as comparing it to other
machines, there are a lot of ugly ones out there. The Livia is my vision of
a beautiful machine.
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157892523.360350.226530@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I have to agree with some of what Fox says (!!)
>
> there are many other better choices in HX, for far less.. . . .
>
> Dave
> 112
>
> Harry Moos wrote:
> > Am I being seduced by the stainless steel, the lights and gauges, the
> > exclusivity of it?
>
> [exclusivity?]
>
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 08:20:22
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: The call of chrome
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"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:1eednZU52stLi5nYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> But will it make a better cup of espresso than my Gaggia? The cup I'm
> drinking right now is pretty good. The process is fairly simple with the
> Gaggia. So would an upgrade of any kind just be for convenience or
> self-indulgence? This area [western Kansas] is home of the "65 cent cup
> of coffee, unlimited refills." Espresso is something people have tasted
> on trips [and generally didn't like]. So any espresso machine is a
> curiosity. The shiny Livia would attract more attention than my "plain
> Jane" black Gaggia, I'm sure. Is that its appeal? As far as comparing it
> to other machines, there are a lot of ugly ones out there. The Livia is
> my vision of a beautiful machine.
>
I think a Livia will espresso is more consistently good than will a Gaggia
(or a Silvia for that matter). This is to say you will get a higher
proportion of good shots per unit effort with the Livia, and it will be a
bit easier to get them.
There are many semi commercial machines that are as attractive or more than
the Livia, at least in my opinion. The great bulk of these are both cheaper
and have greater heat stability also.
You don't appear to want the thing for much other than its looks; given the
cost it is probably a poor bargain, but if you have the money, then, what
the hey?
ken
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 14:01:53
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: The call of chrome
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Even a cheap Gaggia Espresso can make excellent espresso if paired with a
high quality grinder. It won't have the look of a metal machine, but it has
everything it needs, in the hands of a skilled operator to make espresso as
good as it gets.
I have a commercial machine now, and my Gaggia Espresso is in the box down
in my basement, but I pull it out once in a while, and using my commercial
espresso grinder, it does and excellent job. I'm sure your Gaggia Coffee
can also do an excellent job paired with a quality grinder.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:1eednZU52stLi5nYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> But will it make a better cup of espresso than my Gaggia? The cup I'm
> drinking right now is pretty good. The process is fairly simple with the
> Gaggia. So would an upgrade of any kind just be for convenience or
> self-indulgence? This area [western Kansas] is home of the "65 cent cup
> of coffee, unlimited refills." Espresso is something people have tasted
> on trips [and generally didn't like]. So any espresso machine is a
> curiosity. The shiny Livia would attract more attention than my "plain
> Jane" black Gaggia, I'm sure. Is that its appeal? As far as comparing it
> to other machines, there are a lot of ugly ones out there. The Livia is
> my vision of a beautiful machine.
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 16:43:00
From: daveb
Subject: Re: The call of chrome -- bah!
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Hi Ed.
If you leave the gaggia stored for long be sure to empty the boiler!!!
PUT IT AWAY DRY!
otherwise you will get the dreaded corrosion by electrolysis.
dave
113
Ed Needham wrote:
> Even a cheap Gaggia Espresso can make excellent espresso if paired with a
> high quality grinder. It won't have the look of a metal machine, but it =
has
> everything it needs, in the hands of a skilled operator to make espresso =
as
> good as it gets.
> I have a commercial machine now, and my Gaggia Espresso is in the box down
> in my basement, but I pull it out once in a while, and using my commercial
> espresso grinder, it does and excellent job. I'm sure your Gaggia Coffee
> can also do an excellent job paired with a quality grinder.
>
> --
> *********************
> Ed Needham=AE
> "to absurdity and beyond!"
> ed at homeroaster dot com
> (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
> *********************
>
>
> "Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net> wrote in message
> news:1eednZU52stLi5nYnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> > But will it make a better cup of espresso than my Gaggia? The cup I'm
> > drinking right now is pretty good. The process is fairly simple with t=
he
> > Gaggia. So would an upgrade of any kind just be for convenience or
> > self-indulgence? This area [western Kansas] is home of the "65 cent cup
> > of coffee, unlimited refills." Espresso is something people have tasted
> > on trips [and generally didn't like]. So any espresso machine is a
> > curiosity. The shiny Livia would attract more attention than my "plain
> > Jane" black Gaggia, I'm sure. Is that its appeal? As far as comparing=
it
> > to other machines, there are a lot of ugly ones out there. The Livia is
> > my vision of a beautiful machine.
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 20:36:55
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: The call of chrome -- bah!
|
Thanks. It's duly prepped for storage. The tiny boiler on the Gaggia is
aluminum and it would really get nasty with water left in it for any length
of time. Aluminum oxide is not a fun thing to ingest either.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157931780.358711.326240@q16g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
Hi Ed.
If you leave the gaggia stored for long be sure to empty the boiler!!!
PUT IT AWAY DRY!
otherwise you will get the dreaded corrosion by electrolysis.
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Date: 10 Sep 2006 21:16:03
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: The call of chrome -- bah!
|
To empty the boiler, do you just run it dry before it heats up? Or is there
some other draining technique? BTW, I have the Gaggia MDF grinder, and it
seems to do fine. Thanks, all, for the information.
"Ed Needham" <ed@NOSPAMhomeroaster.com > wrote in message
news:ns6dnYkEjbAbMpnYnZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> Thanks. It's duly prepped for storage. The tiny boiler on the Gaggia is
> aluminum and it would really get nasty with water left in it for any
> length of time. Aluminum oxide is not a fun thing to ingest either.
> --
> *********************
> Ed Needham®
> "to absurdity and beyond!"
> ed at homeroaster dot com
> (include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
|
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 00:15:48
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: The call of chrome -- bah!
|
Remove the water reservoir, flip the switch for both steam and espresso, it
pumps water out the steam wand. Stop it the instant the water stops
squirting. Tip the unit over a few times and all the water inside will find
a way out. I wouldn't be terribly concerned about getting every drop out.
It will likely evaporate over time. Maybe someone else has a better way to
do this, but this seems to work.
--
*********************
Ed Needham®
"to absurdity and beyond!"
ed at homeroaster dot com
(include [FRIEND] in subject line to get through my SPAM filters)
*********************
"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:SfadnQgNOIVKW5nYnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> To empty the boiler, do you just run it dry before it heats up? Or is
> there some other draining technique? BTW, I have the Gaggia MDF grinder,
> and it seems to do fine. Thanks, all, for the information.
|
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 12:21:43
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
|
Thanks for all the advice [both here and privately]. After careful
consideration, I've decided that it was the appearance that was attracting
me. After being told some of the problems inherent in a HX machine, I would
probably be better off with a machine more like my Gaggia for no more than I
would use it. I want to get away from the aluminum boiler and gain a 3-way
valve; that rules out the Gaggia Classic. The Silvia is similar enough in
appearance to the Livia, except that it lacks the pressure gauge. Maybe I
could get a decal of a pressure gauge :) and apply it. Anyway, thanks
again.
"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:gr6dnRG6cNPaG57YnZ2dnUVZ_sGdnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
>I have lusted for a Livia, but could only afford [or justify] a Gaggia
>Coffee.
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 22:42:20
From: cschepers
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
|
Harry Moos wrote:
> Thanks for all the advice [both here and privately]. After careful
> consideration, I've decided that it was the appearance that was attracting
> me. After being told some of the problems inherent in a HX machine, I would
> probably be better off with a machine more like my Gaggia for no more than I
> would use it. I want to get away from the aluminum boiler and gain a 3-way
> valve; that rules out the Gaggia Classic. The Silvia is similar enough in
> appearance to the Livia, except that it lacks the pressure gauge. Maybe I
> could get a decal of a pressure gauge :) and apply it. Anyway, thanks
> again.
If a pressure gauge ye be desirin', you might look at the Isomac Venus.
There's certainly enough chrome to get you by. I've had one for about
2 1/2 years and pretty much like it. 1st-Line sells them.. looks like
EspressoParts (NW) also sells them now.
...Then again, with money to upgrade, I think you could do worse than
buying a better grinder (Mazzer/Macap/etc) and adding PID control to the
Gaggia. I'd say that would be as good an upgrade as a new espresso
machine with the same grinder.
chris schepers
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Warning: Do not use Ultimate-Anonymity
They are worthless spammers that are running a scam.
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 12:48:57
From: notbob
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
|
On 2006-09-11, Harry Moos <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote:
> valve; that rules out the Gaggia Classic. The Silvia is similar enough in
> appearance to the Livia, except that it lacks the pressure gauge.....
A pressure gauge on a home espresso machines is pointless. It has no
bearing on a machine's ability to make good espresso.
nb
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 14:00:38
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
|
notbob wrote:
> A pressure gauge on a home espresso machines is pointless.
It lets you monitor the pressure behind the puck, a key parameter of
espresso making.
> It has no
> bearing on a machine's ability to make good espresso.
Literally true, but practically, it makes a very nice cross-check to see
that both time and pressure are optimum.
--
St. John
Your education begins when what is called your education is over.
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 01:20:44
From: Han-Wen Nienhuys
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
|
St. John Smythe wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>
>> A pressure gauge on a home espresso machines is pointless.
>
> It lets you monitor the pressure behind the puck, a key parameter of
> espresso making.
Yes, but what should it be? My shiny new machine is at 10-12 bar
during extraction, is that about right?
Han-Wen
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 19:59:45
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
> Yes, but what should it be? My shiny new machine is at 10-12 bar
> during extraction, is that about right?
That's a little high (9 is optimum). Can you back off on the tamp, get
9 bar and still get a 25-sec extraction?
--
St. John
Jones' Second Law:
The man who smiles when things go wrong has thought of someone
to blame it on.
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Date: 12 Sep 2006 14:02:32
From: Han-Wen Nienhuys
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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St. John Smythe wrote:
> Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
>> Yes, but what should it be? My shiny new machine is at 10-12 bar
>> during extraction, is that about right?
>
> That's a little high (9 is optimum). Can you back off on the tamp, get
> 9 bar and still get a 25-sec extraction?
Ah, I heard about the 9 bars, but wasn't sure what part of the brewing
pipeline should measure 9 bars. Actually, I wasn't looking carefully:
the dial was vibrating between 12 and 14 bar.
I get the following, after twiddling with grinding settings and timings:
I get
- 14 g coffee (+- 2 g, don't have accurate scale)
- beans past their prime (+- 3 weeks old, Gruppo Izzo Arabica Oro)
- tamped at < 10 kg (I used the machine attached tamper, and didn't
tilt the machine by far. The machine weighs 14kg)
- in dual cup filter basket (factory supplied)
- 11 bar pressure (machine dial vibrates 10-12 bar)
- 60 ml extraction in 24 sec (time that brew-switch is on, actual
coffee starts to run after +- 5 seconds)
- puck is moist with small amount of water on top
- crema is there, but on the thin and watery side
- taste: rather watery, slightly acid ; probably due to staling
beans, the taste was much better when I opened the tin.
The pressure and moist puck point to less tamp/coarser grind, but
extraction time is on the low side, suggesting more tamp/finer grind,
right? What to do now?
this is with a Demoka M821 (machine) / M203 (grinder) - the machine has
a 3-way valve, so the puck should be dry after brewing, right?
HAn-Wen
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 07:13:11
From: Leo95se
Subject: Re: The Siren Livia
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Harry Moos wrote:
> I have lusted for a Livia, but could only afford [or justify] a Gaggia
> Coffee. Now that I could afford [but still not justify] a Livia, I really
> wonder if it will produce better tasting espresso -- or is it simply more
> convenient, timesaving, or attractive. Am I being seduced by the stainless
> steel, the lights and gauges, the exclusivity of it? After all, I am the
> only espresso drinker in the house. None of my friends drink espresso; a
> few will drink cappas [the closest Starbucks is 150 miles]. So it's two,
> maybe three, shots per day for me unless I'm drinking drip coffee with
> company. Would I eventually regret buying a Livia? [And I'm not tempted
> by similar machines. I had a Rancilio Nancy, and my Gaggia performs better,
> so I'm not drawn to the Silvia like I am to the Livia.]
first - congrats on starbucks being so far away!!
do you buy or roast fresh coffee? i used my grinder before i got my
new machine with an old krups machine for about a week. the upgrade to
fresh beans, and freshly ground, was astronomical. the new machine put
it over the top, but it wasnt anywhere near as big a jump. to me, it
added that extra crema, and although 'only' an hx (i have ecm giotto
P), it gave me more control over my shots. added steam pressure is nice
too, but its easier to burn the milk. the krups auto froth does its
thing, slowly, with no worries of boiled milk.
lets not forget the countertop appeal. there has not been one person
whos walked into
the house that doesnt want to have a conversation about it :)
oh, other problem with higher end machine, youll need a better grinder,
you really need the minute settings in the grinder to get the machine
to respond well.
have you looked for used ones on CG or buy calling the vendors? its
worth it, and probably wont be much more than a new livia.
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 00:45:05
From: daveb
Subject: Re: livia v. garage doors
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wow, rg looking hard for a joke . . . .
a correctly adjusted electric garage door should not cause damage to
most espresso machines -- except for the Francis serices.
dave " " b
113
Randy G. wrote:
> "Ken Fox" <morceaudemerdeThisMerdeGoes@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't think that the Livia could withstand the punishing force of a GARAGE
> >DOOR, per se, if by that you mean the large doors that open up vertically in
> >front a garage. Rather, I meant the door TO HIS GARAGE, as in the door from
> >the house that goes into the garage.
> >
> >I apologize for any confusion.
> >
> >ken
>
> Well, if we were talking about an interior door then possibly, but the
> door leading into the garage would be a solid door and these are
> usually mounted with self-closing hinges. I think that the machine
> would suffer damage in this case. At least that would be the case in
> the US under most building codes, but in Canada it might not be so.
> Maybe Greg and Andy can do some quantitative testing and get back to
> us on this one? ;-)
>
>
> Randy "Slamming Door Coffee Company" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 12:49:44
From: daveb
Subject: Re: The Siren call of the ULTIMATE STROKE!!
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why not -- the constant search for the ultimate STROKE
and glad to hear that we all talked him OUT of a livia.
dave
114
St. John Smythe wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>
> > A pressure gauge on a home espresso machines is pointless.
>
> It lets you monitor the pressure behind the puck, a key parameter of
> espresso making.
>
> > It has no
> > bearing on a machine's ability to make good espresso.
>
> Literally true, but practically, it makes a very nice cross-check to see
> that both time and pressure are optimum.
>
> --
> St. John
> Your education begins when what is called your education is over.
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