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Main
Date: 07 Sep 2006 08:20:58
From: daveb
Subject: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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. . may be smart to look at the 'brewtus' group postings.
Makes for some very interesting reading.
cooked control boards? hmmm..
lotsa chrome!! -- not so much reliability!!
Dave
110
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:11:07
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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On 7 Sep 2006 08:20:58 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
> . . may be smart to look at the 'brewtus' group postings.
>
>Makes for some very interesting reading.
>
>cooked control boards? hmmm..
>
>lotsa chrome!! -- not so much reliability!!
>
>Dave
>110
wot, no link????
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 20:28:26
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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jim schulman wrote:
> That's very long. Any commercial sized machine can make shots at a one
> a minute pace. What's puzzling is that in terms of heat capacity (800
> watts or more) any home machine should too. It sounds like your PID is
> severely overdamped.
Yes, it is very highly damped. But the rate of cooling of an
overheated boiler is many times slower than the rate of heating, even
when the heating is highly damped near setpoint.
I think the best control strategy for a Silvia is to use a highly
damped system that eliminates or minimizes overshoot. But I'd welcome
some data that shows I am wrong and that you can get better intershot
time on the Silvia by using less damping.
I wouldn't claim that adding a PID to a Silvia raises it to commercial
performance level. But 2 minutes intershot time is a huge improvement
over temp surfing a non-PID machine. I think that should be the
standard for comparison.
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 22:55:32
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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On 7 Sep 2006 20:28:26 -0700, "jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Yes, it is very highly damped. But the rate of cooling of an
>overheated boiler is many times slower than the rate of heating, even
>when the heating is highly damped near setpoint.
You could try to set it tighter and more aggressive by reducing the P
band to just beyond the point it hunts, then run water if you need it
fast.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:38:17
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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Karl wrote:
> daveb, as usual, fails to mention that he sells competing machines and
> has a commercial reason to disparage the Brewtus.
Uh NO, they do not even compete in the same class, karl.
His postings here are
> basically promoting his business
Not all, karl. some postings have actual USEFUL INFO.
(see his posting today about how many
> pids he claims to have installed and you'll get the idea)
CLAIMS? call chris coffee -- none of the silvias i've bought from him
are still here.
> rather than
> significant contributions. Take what he says with a grain of salt. Two
> or three grains might be better. As far as I know, he has never used a
> Brewtus.
NOPE, never have used a brutus, never claimed to have. but that does
not stop people from "opining " here on nearly anything. and BTW, I am
linking to a group of brutus owners.
>
> While no machine is perfect (although the GS3 is reported to be very
> close)
Who cares? a GS3 is 5 grand.
>or without breakdowns, I don't think the postings at the Brewtus
> group suggest the Brewtus is not as reliable as any other machine. I've
> given mine pretty heavy (consumer) use for about 10 months without any
> significant problem, as have many others.
---- A defensive reaction.
>
> What problems people have experienced are certainly very fully reported
> at the Brewtus Group, which is at:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus.
>
> Keep in mind that this is a resource group, not a chat group, and the
> many owners who have not had problems do not generally post there to
> report that they have not had problems.
And I am sure there are owners WITH problems who have never heard of
the brutus group or ac, either
>One thing you will notice is
> that many of the American owners who have had problems have been very
> pleased with the phone technical service, and have solved their
> problems without returning their machines.
??? really!
> daveb sells pidded Rancilio Silvias. He is the only person known to
> have ever blown the gaskets on a Silvia by back flushing (or, perhaps I
> should say, known to have claimed to have done so).
ROTFL! OVER A YEAR LATER [ he thinks I made it up] please, carl, I'll
get you in touch with a customer [whose machine I repaired and
installed a 'pid' controller] who managed to blow the 2 orings in the 3
way by "backflushing" -- He took a machine without a problem -- and
created a leaker! Call Maria at sweetmarias -- ask her about "BF"
>I upgraded from a pidded Silvia to a Brewtus II, and found it just about as temperature
> stable as a pidded Silvia (certainly stable within the range that I can
> taste the difference in), and a lot better for repeated shots, since
> its much larger boilers,
Is that so!
>and the heat exchanger, [AFAIK, carl, a dual boiler machine does not
have a heat exchanger]
>defeat the annoying
> wait for a pidded Silvia (or any Silvia) to recover from a shot, much
> less from steaming.
Obviously! ANY dual boiler had better be good at steaming -- for
$1500+
>
> For steaming, Silvia may be as good as Brewtus,
unknown. and OT
>perhaps better than Brewtus with the stock tip, for the first 4 oz of milk or so; after
> that it runs out of steam quickly as the boiler temperature drops, and
> you could, if you are not careful, steam the boiler dry enough to
> damage the element. Brewtus just keeps on steaming.
Oh well, that $1,000 had better buy more smarts!
> IMHO, for shot after shot of consistent espresso, and for virtually
> unlimited steaming, the Brewus II is a great machine. I love my pidded
> Silvia, but it's not in the same league.
No one ever said it was in the same league, carl. certainly not I.
> It's great for one shot, or one cappa; after that the smaller boilers cause instability (unless you install a pid) and fairly long delays between shots (even longer delays
> with a pid).
Too bad about the "long delays" -- none of my 100+ customers have EVER
had a complaint!
Better keep your lowly silvia as a backup, carl.
Now if you want a GOOD dual boiler machine -- get a La Spaz S1
Vivaldi!!
and NO I don't wanna sell you one. That is the one I want.
Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
> daveb wrote:
> > . . may be smart to look at the 'brewtus' group postings.
> >
> > Makes for some very interesting reading.
> >
> > cooked control boards? hmmm..
> >
> > lotsa chrome!! -- not so much reliability!!
> >
> > Dave
> > 110
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 13:50:14
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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Karl wrote:
> [snipped....] I love my pidded
> Silvia, but it's not in the same league. It's great for one shot, or
> one cappa; after that the smaller boilers cause instability (unless you
> install a pid) and fairly long delays between shots (even longer delays
> with a pid).
>
> Karl
>
Hi, Karl -
First, I need to disclose that I have a minor commercial interest in
PID'd Silvia's.
I am curious about your experience with long delays between shots. My
personal experience has been around 2 minutes until the PID has
re-stabilized the boiler temp. Since it takes me about that long to
empty and refill the portafilter, I have never noticed this to be an
issue.
It sounds like your experience was different. What kind of PID system
did/do you have?
Thanks.
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:07:24
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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On 7 Sep 2006 13:50:14 -0700, "jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote:
> My
>personal experience has been around 2 minutes until the PID has
>re-stabilized the boiler temp
That's very long. Any commercial sized machine can make shots at a one
a minute pace. What's puzzling is that in terms of heat capacity (800
watts or more) any home machine should too. It sounds like your PID is
severely overdamped.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 13:12:23
From: Karl
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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daveb, as usual, fails to mention that he sells competing machines and
has a commercial reason to disparage the Brewtus. His postings here are
basically promoting his business (see his posting today about how many
pids he claims to have installed and you'll get the idea) rather than
significant contributions. Take what he says with a grain of salt. Two
or three grains might be better. As far as I know, he has never used a
Brewtus.
While no machine is perfect (although the GS3 is reported to be very
close) or without breakdowns, I don't think the postings at the Brewtus
group suggest the Brewtus is not as reliable as any other machine. I've
given mine pretty heavy (consumer) use for about 10 months without any
significant problem, as have many others.
What problems people have experienced are certainly very fully reported
at the Brewtus Group, which is at:
http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus.
Keep in mind that this is a resource group, not a chat group, and the
many owners who have not had problems do not generally post there to
report that they have not had problems. One thing you will notice is
that many of the American owners who have had problems have been very
pleased with the phone technical service, and have solved their
problems without returning their machines.
daveb sells pidded Rancilio Silvias. He is the only person known to
have ever blown the gaskets on a Silvia by back flushing (or, perhaps I
should say, known to have claimed to have done so). I upgraded from a
pidded Silvia to a Brewtus II, and found it just about as temperature
stable as a pidded Silvia (certainly stable within the range that I can
taste the difference in), and a lot better for repeated shots, since
its much larger boilers, and the heat exchanger, defeat the annoying
wait for a pidded Silvia (or any Silvia) to recover from a shot, much
less from steaming.
For steaming, Silvia may be as good as Brewtus, perhaps better than
Brewtus with the stock tip, for the first 4 oz of milk or so; after
that it runs out of steam quickly as the boiler temperature drops, and
you could, if you are not careful, steam the boiler dry enough to
damage the element. Brewtus just keeps on steaming.
IMHO, for shot after shot of consistent espresso, and for virtually
unlimited steaming, the Brewus II is a great machine. I love my pidded
Silvia, but it's not in the same league. It's great for one shot, or
one cappa; after that the smaller boilers cause instability (unless you
install a pid) and fairly long delays between shots (even longer delays
with a pid).
Karl
daveb wrote:
> . . may be smart to look at the 'brewtus' group postings.
>
> Makes for some very interesting reading.
>
> cooked control boards? hmmm..
>
> lotsa chrome!! -- not so much reliability!!
>
> Dave
> 110
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 11:35:04
From: daveb
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .link
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I hafta do everythin'??????
http://groups.google.com/group/brewtus
dave
www.hitechespresso.com
I- >Ian wrote:
> On 7 Sep 2006 08:20:58 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > . . may be smart to look at the 'brewtus' group postings.
> >
> >Makes for some very interesting reading.
> >
> >cooked control boards? hmmm..
> >
> >lotsa chrome!! -- not so much reliability!!
> >
> >Dave
> >110
>
> wot, no link????
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 09:04:59
From: daveb
Subject: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
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karl:
" . . .it's a much better machine, even after Silvia got her PID. "
I'm sure it is, for about $1000 more, it had better be . . . let us
hope as reliable.
and re the "heat exchanger"? sounds like a preheater -- not heat
exchanger as understood in the machine design sense.
Dave
111
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 16:11:12
From: Bill Barner
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
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"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157731499.810999.224400@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> karl:
>
> " . . .it's a much better machine, even after Silvia got her PID. "
>
Doesn't PID stand for pelvic inflammatory disease?
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 17:19:24
From: notbob
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
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On 2006-09-08, Bill Barner <bbarner@cox.net > wrote:
> Doesn't PID stand for pelvic inflammatory disease?
Judging by the way it's waved around in this ng, I think it stands for
penile insinuation device.
nb
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 09:01:36
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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Karl wrote:
> My delays before the temp completely settles is about 2 - 2.5 minutes
> after a shot, and closer to 5 minutes after steaming. I've tried
> playing with some of the settings, and autotuning. I get remarkable
> stability once it settles down - about 0.1 degree F, but can't speed up
> the time it takes to settle down. If you have any suggestions on
> settings, I'd be grateful to hear them.
I doubt that changing the tuning will result in anything much quicker
than 2 minutes, close to what you are getting now. Until yesterday,
though, I didn't know that was a long wait ;-} If there is improvement
to be had, it would probably be in the form of reducing overshoot since
cooling back down to SP is so slow.
> It takes me about 30 - 45 seconds to knock, wipe the pf and refill. For
> two shots, the wait is ok. For more than 2, or if there is any
> steaming, it gets annoying.
Recovery after steaming is a whole new ballgame - the price you pay for
owning a single boiler machine? A long cooling flush that drops the
temp way below SP helps, but the excess heat stored in the system
confuses the PID. Overshoot on recovery after the cooling flush is
your mortal enemy here because Silvia cools so much more slowly than it
heats.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:53:35
From: Karl
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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daveb wrote:
> ROTFL! OVER A YEAR LATER [ he thinks I made it up] please, carl, I'll
> get you in touch with a customer [whose machine I repaired and
> installed a 'pid' controller] who managed to blow the 2 orings in the 3
> way by "backflushing"
I don't know for sure whether you made it up, daveb, but I'm still
waiting for the the second person (and not you posting under an
different alias) to say they actually blew gaskets backflushing a
Silvia. To date, although a huge number of people backflush their
Silvias, and it's been discussed at great length here, only you have
reported this. Clearly, even if you did accomplish it, it is extremely
unusual.
> [AFAIK, carl, a dual boiler machine does not have a heat exchanger]
My point, exactly: you don't know anything about the Brewtus. If you
did, you would know that Brewtus has a heat exchanger in the steam
boiler which preheats water feeding into the brew boiler. This is a
part of how it achieves excellent brew temperature stability. Water
arrives in the brew boiler at approximately brew temperature rather
than at the much colder reservoir temperature, as in the case of
Silvia.
>> For steaming, Silvia may be as good as Brewtus,
> unknown. and OT
No, it's not unknown. I steam on both machines all the time. A stock
Silvia steams about 4 ounces of milk faster than Brewtus with a stock
tip, and, in my opinion, the foam is as good. As you must know, this
brings the temperature way down, though, and steam pressure drops
dramatically. You have to wait for it to come back up, and you
periodically have to run more water into the boilder to avoid damaging
the element. This takes time. Brewtus just keeps on steaming. Brewtus
also purges faster - you need to purge about half an ounce of water,
sometimes more, out of Silvia to get dry steam.
> Too bad about the "long delays" -- none of my 100+ customers have EVER
> had a complaint!
They may not have had a complaint, but they had the long delays, unless
you have altered the laws of physics for them.
> Better keep your lowly silvia as a backup, carl.
Of course, I've kept her, and she's not lowly, she's a gem. I love her
dearly. But the OP was interested in the Brewtus, and it's a much
better machine, even after Silvia got her PID.
Karl "not Carl" Rice
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:45:45
From: daveb
Subject: Re: ah the famous fuji.
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Ah, the vaunted Fuji!! blecchh!
Bought one, used one, hated it and dumped it ! don't want 'em -- won't
support 'em --
even galt won't use 'em.
Scace has several articles on manual setting the fuji. GOOGLE
oh carl, BTW no response to my responses?
Dave
111
877 286 2833
Karl wrote:
> The PID is a Fuji PXR3-RCY1-4V. I use a Type J thermocouple.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:21:04
From: Karl
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
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The PID is a Fuji PXR3-RCY1-4V. I use a Type J thermocouple. Can't
remember who makes the relay, but the model number was RS1A23D40. The
PID is in an external box. Basically a Murph's setup.
My delays before the temp completely settles is about 2 - 2.5 minutes
after a shot, and closer to 5 minutes after steaming. I've tried
playing with some of the settings, and autotuning. I get remarkable
stability once it settles down - about 0.1 degree F, but can't speed up
the time it takes to settle down. If you have any suggestions on
settings, I'd be grateful to hear them.
It takes me about 30 - 45 seconds to knock, wipe the pf and refill. For
two shots, the wait is ok. For more than 2, or if there is any
steaming, it gets annoying.
Don't get me wrong; I love Silvia, and adding a PID was a huge
improvement. I still use her most weekends (she's at our weekend
place). For daily, shot after shot, consistency, steaming milk for my
wife and soy for my son, Brewtus is well worth the extra cost, to me.
jggall01 wrote:
> Karl wrote:
>
> > [snipped....] I love my pidded
> > Silvia, but it's not in the same league. It's great for one shot, or
> > one cappa; after that the smaller boilers cause instability (unless you
> > install a pid) and fairly long delays between shots (even longer delays
> > with a pid).
> >
> > Karl
> >
>
> Hi, Karl -
>
> First, I need to disclose that I have a minor commercial interest in
> PID'd Silvia's.
>
> I am curious about your experience with long delays between shots. My
> personal experience has been around 2 minutes until the PID has
> re-stabilized the boiler temp. Since it takes me about that long to
> empty and refill the portafilter, I have never noticed this to be an
> issue.
>
> It sounds like your experience was different. What kind of PID system
> did/do you have?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 05:47:54
From: daveb
Subject: looking at / or have, a Brewtus . .??
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Good research, crack!
Check back to this space -- a chap in St. Louis has sent me his
Expobar lever for the 'pid' treatment.
CrackAddict wrote:
> Needed a second machine for the cottage. Have an Office Control -
> thought I wanted a Brewtus (double boiler) - looked at price and user
> comments - realised my Office works just great so bought another Office
> used and saved mucho $$$.
>
> As far as an S1 - beside the fact all my E61 PFs and tampers
[ I understand -- I have a 53 mm ergo tamper waiting for the rest of
the rig.]
would be
> redundant, I think when I win the lottery I want a machine with a
> lever-controlled steam wand. Small thing, I know...
Dave
110
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 01:08:38
From: CrackAddict
Subject: Re: Those looking at getting / or have, a Brewtus . .
|
Needed a second machine for the cottage. Have an Office Control -
thought I wanted a Brewtus (double boiler) - looked at price and user
comments - realised my Office works just great so bought another Office
used and saved mucho $$$.
As far as an S1 - beside the fact all my E61 PFs and tampers would be
redundant, I think when I win the lottery I want a machine with a
lever-controlled steam wand. Small thing, I know...
daveb wrote:
> . . may be smart to look at the 'brewtus' group postings.
>
> Makes for some very interesting reading.
>
> cooked control boards? hmmm..
>
> lotsa chrome!! -- not so much reliability!!
>
> Dave
> 110
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 15:08:10
From: Karl
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
|
daveb wrote:
> Well, damn carl, you are so right.
* * *
> you are just defensive that you have a brutus and are secretly
> worried that you MAY, I emphasize MAY, own a real DOG!
daveb, there you go again. You can't even spell Brewtus, you don't know
anything about it, but you insist on trashing it.
Karl "not Carl, no matter daveb says" Rice
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 13:15:52
From: Karl
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
|
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Karl, When I was considering the Expobar Brewtus II at WLL it was described
> as a double boiler, not a HXr. All other Expobars are HX machines though.
Robert (at least I hope you're Robert and not that pesky Robert
impersonator!), the other Expobars you refer to use a heat exchanger to
deliver water from the reservoir through the boiler to the brewhead.
The single boiler is kept at steam temperature. Reservoir water runs
through piping in the boiler for a distance calculated to bring it to
brew temperature (but not steam temperature) by the time it reaches the
brewhead. I guess you could say these machines are "only" heat
exchanger machines.
The Brewtus, although it has two boilers, also has a heat exchanger.
This runs water from the reservoir through the steam boiler and into
the brew boiler. Thus, when the brew boiler gets refilled, it is with
water which is already at or near brew temperature, so there is no long
wait for the brew boiler to get to brew temperature. The heat
exchanger, along with the very large boilers (I think they are 1.7
liter) results in a very stable brew boiler temp. It's a heat exchanger
machine with a second boiler. Or a dual boiler machine with a heat
exchanger.
There is a great manual done by someone in the Brewtus grouo at
http://www.brewtusgroup.com/rt/fileroom. Look under "Manual" and take a
look at the Brewtus Compendium. There are excellent schematics for both
the plumbing and the wiring.
What I objected to in daveb's post was the statement, "AFAIK, carl, a
dual boiler machine does not have a heat exchanger." The Brewtus is a
dual boiler machine with a heat exchanger.
Karl "who shouldn't take daveb so personally" Rice
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 13:12:53
From: daveb
Subject: et tu, Brewtus . .???
|
NO, BOB!!! no no! the brutus now has a heat exchanger!
carl just told me all about it.
Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
Robert Harmon wrote:
> Karl, When I was considering the Expobar Brewtus II at WLL it was described
> as a double boiler, not a HXr. All other Expobars are HX machines though.
> http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/brewtus.cfm
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Karl" <karlmiltonrice@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1157742580.261197.130540@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >> and re the "heat exchanger"? sounds like a preheater -- not heat
> >> exchanger as understood in the machine design sense.
> >
> > daveb, first you demonstrated that you know nothing about Brewtus. Now
> > you demonstrate that you don't know what a heat exchanger is.
> >
> > "Heat exchanger
> >>From Wikipedia
> >
> > A heat exchanger is a device built for efficient heat transfer from one
> > fluid to another, whether the fluids are separated by a solid wall so
> > that they never mix, or the fluids are directly contacted."
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 13:10:59
From: daveb
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
|
Well, damn carl, you are so right. It is nice to be in the right.
but thanks for expending all that time on research -- just PLEASE
PLEASE don't acknowledge the context of my reference to heat
exchangers!
and I know exactly what a heat exchanger is, carl.
you are just defensive that you have a brutus and are secretly
worried that you MAY, I emphasize MAY, own a real DOG!
Dave
111
Karl wrote:
> > and re the "heat exchanger"? sounds like a preheater -- not heat
> > exchanger as understood in the machine design sense.
>
> daveb, first you demonstrated that you know nothing about Brewtus.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 12:09:40
From: Karl
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
|
> and re the "heat exchanger"? sounds like a preheater -- not heat
> exchanger as understood in the machine design sense.
daveb, first you demonstrated that you know nothing about Brewtus. Now
you demonstrate that you don't know what a heat exchanger is.
"Heat exchanger
>From Wikipedia
A heat exchanger is a device built for efficient heat transfer from one
fluid to another, whether the fluids are separated by a solid wall so
that they never mix, or the fluids are directly contacted."
Or, from Taftan Data, "Heat exchangers are devices built for efficient
heat transfer from one fluid to another and are widely used in
engineering processes. Some examples are intercoolers, PREHEATERS,
boilers and condensers in power plants." (Capitals added).
That's exactly what Brewtus has, a heat exchanger. The fact that it is
used to preheat water running to the boiler rather than to preheat
water runing through the portafilter doesn't change the fact that it is
a heat exchanger. You said Brewtus doesn't have one. You were mistaken.
This happens to all of us. Learn to live with it. To accept it if
possible.
Karl "only 1 pidded Silvia, but knows a heat exchanger when he sees
one" Rice
|
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 19:23:17
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
|
Karl, When I was considering the Expobar Brewtus II at WLL it was described
as a double boiler, not a HXr. All other Expobars are HX machines though.
http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/brewtus.cfm
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Karl" <karlmiltonrice@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1157742580.261197.130540@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>> and re the "heat exchanger"? sounds like a preheater -- not heat
>> exchanger as understood in the machine design sense.
>
> daveb, first you demonstrated that you know nothing about Brewtus. Now
> you demonstrate that you don't know what a heat exchanger is.
>
> "Heat exchanger
>>From Wikipedia
>
> A heat exchanger is a device built for efficient heat transfer from one
> fluid to another, whether the fluids are separated by a solid wall so
> that they never mix, or the fluids are directly contacted."
>
> Or, from Taftan Data, "Heat exchangers are devices built for efficient
> heat transfer from one fluid to another and are widely used in
> engineering processes. Some examples are intercoolers, PREHEATERS,
> boilers and condensers in power plants." (Capitals added).
>
> That's exactly what Brewtus has, a heat exchanger. The fact that it is
> used to preheat water running to the boiler rather than to preheat
> water runing through the portafilter doesn't change the fact that it is
> a heat exchanger. You said Brewtus doesn't have one. You were mistaken.
> This happens to all of us. Learn to live with it. To accept it if
> possible.
>
> Karl "only 1 pidded Silvia, but knows a heat exchanger when he sees
> one" Rice
>
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 12:54:34
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
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"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > top-posted in message
news:FqjMg.16649$Qf.8275@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Karl" <karlmiltonrice@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1157742580.261197.130540@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> >> and re the "heat exchanger"? sounds like a preheater -- not heat
> >> exchanger as understood in the machine design sense.
> >
> > daveb, first you demonstrated that you know nothing about Brewtus. Now
> > you demonstrate that you don't know what a heat exchanger is.
> >
> > "Heat exchanger
> >>From Wikipedia
> >
> > A heat exchanger is a device built for efficient heat transfer from one
> > fluid to another, whether the fluids are separated by a solid wall so
> > that they never mix, or the fluids are directly contacted."
> >
> > Or, from Taftan Data, "Heat exchangers are devices built for efficient
> > heat transfer from one fluid to another and are widely used in
> > engineering processes. Some examples are intercoolers, PREHEATERS,
> > boilers and condensers in power plants." (Capitals added).
> >
> > That's exactly what Brewtus has, a heat exchanger. The fact that it is
> > used to preheat water running to the boiler rather than to preheat
> > water runing through the portafilter doesn't change the fact that it is
> > a heat exchanger. You said Brewtus doesn't have one. You were mistaken.
> > This happens to all of us. Learn to live with it. To accept it if
> > possible.
> >
> > Karl "only 1 pidded Silvia, but knows a heat exchanger when he sees
> > one" Rice
> >
>
> Karl, When I was considering the Expobar Brewtus II at WLL it was
described
> as a double boiler, not a HXr. All other Expobars are HX machines though.
> http://www.wholelattelove.com/Expobar/brewtus.cfm
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>
afaik Karl never claimed it was a heat exchager machine but that it
contained one, here's what he said:
"since its much larger boilers, and the heat exchanger, defeat the annoying
wait for a pidded Silvia"
The reason WLL doesn't describe it as one is that it's not a heat exchanger
in the traditional sense but rather uses a heat exchanger to pre-heat the
water incoming to the brew boiler so providing better temperature stability.
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Date: 09 Sep 2006 13:03:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus . .???
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in certain circles it does.....
also the jargon excludes newbies
Dave
112
Bill Barner wrote:
> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1157731499.810999.224400@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > karl:
> >
> > " . . .it's a much better machine, even after Silvia got her PID. "
> >
> Doesn't PID stand for pelvic inflammatory disease?
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Date: 11 Sep 2006 13:04:24
From: daveb
Subject: Re: ,et tu, Brewtus --- ~~~ brewtuus trashing????
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I know how to spell brutus carl, thank you.
and I WAS not really "trashing" it, just referring you to a site where
OTHERS trash it and express their concerns, KARL!
I am just the messenger
dave
114
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