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Date: 06 Nov 2006 14:41:06
From: Frank103
Subject: What am I missing?
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I'm reading a book about coffee written by Marie Antol. When discussing
various kinds of roasts, the author writes about French Roast/Expresso:
"If you like an exceptionally strong, heavy-bodied, low-acid coffee, this
roast is for you. Just keep in mind that at this point, no distinctive
varietal flavor remains. In otrher words, the coffee has lost the flavor
that distinguishes one bean from another."
Varietal - of, pertaining to, designating, or characteristic of a variety.
If the above is true, and you can't distinguish the flavor of one variety
from another, why are people always asking others what their favorite
espresso bean is? I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
missing?
frank103"mymom"@cox.net
To email just leave my mom out of this
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 17:28:30
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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What are you missing..? In the understanding of the paragraph or in
your coffee? I will speak generally here:
Unfortunately, a lot of consumers who think they know about coffee
have gained their education, such as it is, from places like Peets,
Starbucks, and the like. However it started does not matter, but we
seem to be at the peak of a cycle where dark roasted = espresso, and
'only dark roasted coffee is real coffee.' We can point fingers as to
origins, sources, etc., but those don't matter.
If coffee is roasted properly so that it retains much of what it was
grown to be, it only stays fresh for ___about___ two weeks to a month
depending on lots of factors, which include things like:
-How dark it was roasted
-What it was before roasting
-How it was stored after roasting
Ahh.. the "what it was before roasting" is a source of some of the
misconception about dark roasting, IMO, FWIW. if we were to take some
cheap beans- either poorly processed, old and stale even before
roasting, or just nasty genetics (like virtually all the Robusta that
comes out of Viet Nam) and then roast them they would taste.. bad. The
varietal flavors would come through and that would not be a good thing
because instead of flowery, woody, chocolaty, and other pleasant notes
these would taste like mildew, burlap, and burn rubber. BUT, the
darker they are roasted the less varietal flavor they present, and in
these cases that's a good thing. Additionally, the darker they are
roasted the longer they last on the shelf (to an extent). That is to
say that most of the flavor has been roasted out and when they lose
taste they will still taste burnt and lacking, fresh or not.
Personally, I like the taste of coffee and do not like to taste the
roast, if that makes sense. There is a huge difference between
"roasted for espresso" and "espresso roast." The first reflects an
attitude that indicates that the roaster might have know how to roast
coffee. The second indicates someone who is roasting to an uneducated
mass of consumers who will buy what they think is best without
researching further than what is written on the bin in the supermarket
of the menu at the local chain coffee shop.
On the other hand, if you like really dark roasted coffee, that is
fine. it will also save you a lot of money because you can buy
low-cost beans, roast them to the edges of Hell, and they will all
taste just about the same. and at the same time there are some beans
that benefit from a slightly darker roast, like many of the African
beans which reveal a delicious chocolaty taste when roasted darker,
like to a full city+.
Randy "can you tell I do not like dark roasted coffee?" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
"Frank103" <frank103@cox.net > wrote:
>
>I'm reading a book about coffee written by Marie Antol. When discussing
>various kinds of roasts, the author writes about French Roast/Expresso:
>"If you like an exceptionally strong, heavy-bodied, low-acid coffee, this
>roast is for you. Just keep in mind that at this point, no distinctive
>varietal flavor remains. In otrher words, the coffee has lost the flavor
>that distinguishes one bean from another."
>
>Varietal - of, pertaining to, designating, or characteristic of a variety.
>
>If the above is true, and you can't distinguish the flavor of one variety
>from another, why are people always asking others what their favorite
>espresso bean is? I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
>missing?
>
> frank103"mymom"@cox.net
>To email just leave my mom out of this
>
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Date: 07 Nov 2006 03:52:51
From: Geoff Gatell
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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I agree with you Randy, dark roasts are not to my taste. That being said and
, given that I am not yet into roasting, what would you suggest that I buy?
Is the country of origin important as well as the roast and, if so, what
would you suggest?
Geoff
"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:8bnvk2lu5s9pt1v8vju4satcslrc0hnrq5@4ax.com...
> What are you missing..? In the understanding of the paragraph or in
> your coffee? I will speak generally here:
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of consumers who think they know about coffee
> have gained their education, such as it is, from places like Peets,
> Starbucks, and the like. However it started does not matter, but we
> seem to be at the peak of a cycle where dark roasted = espresso, and
> 'only dark roasted coffee is real coffee.' We can point fingers as to
> origins, sources, etc., but those don't matter.
>
> If coffee is roasted properly so that it retains much of what it was
> grown to be, it only stays fresh for ___about___ two weeks to a month
> depending on lots of factors, which include things like:
> -How dark it was roasted
> -What it was before roasting
> -How it was stored after roasting
>
> Ahh.. the "what it was before roasting" is a source of some of the
> misconception about dark roasting, IMO, FWIW. if we were to take some
> cheap beans- either poorly processed, old and stale even before
> roasting, or just nasty genetics (like virtually all the Robusta that
> comes out of Viet Nam) and then roast them they would taste.. bad. The
> varietal flavors would come through and that would not be a good thing
> because instead of flowery, woody, chocolaty, and other pleasant notes
> these would taste like mildew, burlap, and burn rubber. BUT, the
> darker they are roasted the less varietal flavor they present, and in
> these cases that's a good thing. Additionally, the darker they are
> roasted the longer they last on the shelf (to an extent). That is to
> say that most of the flavor has been roasted out and when they lose
> taste they will still taste burnt and lacking, fresh or not.
>
> Personally, I like the taste of coffee and do not like to taste the
> roast, if that makes sense. There is a huge difference between
> "roasted for espresso" and "espresso roast." The first reflects an
> attitude that indicates that the roaster might have know how to roast
> coffee. The second indicates someone who is roasting to an uneducated
> mass of consumers who will buy what they think is best without
> researching further than what is written on the bin in the supermarket
> of the menu at the local chain coffee shop.
>
> On the other hand, if you like really dark roasted coffee, that is
> fine. it will also save you a lot of money because you can buy
> low-cost beans, roast them to the edges of Hell, and they will all
> taste just about the same. and at the same time there are some beans
> that benefit from a slightly darker roast, like many of the African
> beans which reveal a delicious chocolaty taste when roasted darker,
> like to a full city+.
>
> Randy "can you tell I do not like dark roasted coffee?" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
>
>
>
> "Frank103" <frank103@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>I'm reading a book about coffee written by Marie Antol. When discussing
>>various kinds of roasts, the author writes about French Roast/Expresso:
>>"If you like an exceptionally strong, heavy-bodied, low-acid coffee, this
>>roast is for you. Just keep in mind that at this point, no distinctive
>>varietal flavor remains. In otrher words, the coffee has lost the flavor
>>that distinguishes one bean from another."
>>
>>Varietal - of, pertaining to, designating, or characteristic of a variety.
>>
>>If the above is true, and you can't distinguish the flavor of one variety
>>from another, why are people always asking others what their favorite
>>espresso bean is? I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
>>missing?
>>
>> frank103"mymom"@cox.net
>>To email just leave my mom out of this
>>
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 20:40:39
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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"Geoff Gatell" <gatco1@shaw.ca > wrote:
>I agree with you Randy, dark roasts are not to my taste. That being said and
>, given that I am not yet into roasting, what would you suggest that I buy?
>Is the country of origin important as well as the roast and, if so, what
>would you suggest?
>
>Geoff
>
>
It is a most difficult question to answer because it depends on your
brewing method, but more importantly, your taste preferences which are
difficult to express.
When anyone asks this question I suggest first looking into a local
shop that roasts, or even a commercial roaster in your area. The
reasons are that you are more likely to get fresh roasted (which is
critical for the best taste) and you will also be able to communicate
what you want. After you get some of their coffee you can go back and
say, I liked it because.. or I didn't like it because. You might even
be able to do some supping with them to find what you like. Many
coffee pros are much like what you find here. Totally anal.. err... I
mean dedicated to good coffee and willing to share with other people
who are passionate and serious about good coffee.
If you let the group here know where you live, maybe someone can
recommend a local source for you. Was it in Canada? I think someone
recommended Intelligentsia. After that, try some of the online sellers
of roasted- the closer the better, although that is not as critical in
the winter when the shipping temps are lower in the back of the
trucks.
Finally, why not get into roasting yourself. A beginners kit can be a
juice can on a Poppery I and an assortment of green beans to get
started. it isn't rocket science, but can become nearly so, but with
about an hour's efforts you can probably experience better coffee than
is available on the supermarket aisles and in the plastic bins.. if
nothing else it will give you a better idea about what is involved in
roasting and allow better communication if you find a local roaster.
Randy "fresh is the key" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 07 Nov 2006 01:12:34
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com > wrote in message
news:4v20l2dfe641tmni2bfmm23budbhst67vc@4ax.com...
> "Geoff Gatell" <gatco1@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>I agree with you Randy, dark roasts are not to my taste. That being
>>said and
>>, given that I am not yet into roasting, what would you suggest that I
>>buy?
>>Is the country of origin important as well as the roast and, if so,
>>what
>>would you suggest?
>>
>>Geoff
>>
>>
>
> It is a most difficult question to answer because it depends on your
> brewing method, but more importantly, your taste preferences which are
> difficult to express.
>
> When anyone asks this question I suggest first looking into a local
> shop that roasts, or even a commercial roaster in your area. The
> reasons are that you are more likely to get fresh roasted (which is
> critical for the best taste) and you will also be able to communicate
> what you want. After you get some of their coffee you can go back and
> say, I liked it because.. or I didn't like it because. You might even
> be able to do some supping with them to find what you like. Many
> coffee pros are much like what you find here. Totally anal.. err... I
> mean dedicated to good coffee and willing to share with other people
> who are passionate and serious about good coffee.
>
> If you let the group here know where you live, maybe someone can
> recommend a local source for you. Was it in Canada? I think someone
> recommended Intelligentsia. After that, try some of the online sellers
> of roasted- the closer the better, although that is not as critical in
> the winter when the shipping temps are lower in the back of the
> trucks.
That was me Randy, in the misspelled Silvia thread Sylvia. Geoff lives
in "God's Country"....White Rock, BC.
Quoted again: "If you haven't as of yet, you really must try out
Intelligentsia's
excellent coffees! Brad Ford is the Canadian Intelligentsia rep & owner
of the Wicked Cafe www.wickedcafe.ca The full contact info there is the
same for both (Owner of cafe & rep).
These are EXCELLENT espresso coffees!
http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/store/coffee/blends/blackcat
http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/store/coffee/blends/kido"
Hope this helps,
Cheers!
Craig."
I'd contact Brad & see if he'd sell you some (1lb or 2) from his cafe,
that way the coffee's shipped from the Intelly roaster in Chicago to the
cafe @1399 W. 7th Ave, Vancouver
604 733-9425
info@wickedcafe.ca
>
> Finally, why not get into roasting yourself. A beginners kit can be a
> juice can on a Poppery I and an assortment of green beans to get
> started. it isn't rocket science, but can become nearly so, but with
> about an hour's efforts you can probably experience better coffee than
> is available on the supermarket aisles and in the plastic bins.. if
> nothing else it will give you a better idea about what is involved in
> roasting and allow better communication if you find a local roaster.
>
>
> Randy "fresh is the key" G.
> http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
>
>
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 16:55:29
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
|
Frank103 wrote:
> I'm reading a book about coffee written by Marie Antol. When discussing
> various kinds of roasts, the author writes about French Roast/Expresso:
> "If you like an exceptionally strong, heavy-bodied, low-acid coffee, this
> roast is for you. Just keep in mind that at this point, no distinctive
> varietal flavor remains. In otrher words, the coffee has lost the flavor
> that distinguishes one bean from another."
>
> Varietal - of, pertaining to, designating, or characteristic of a variety.
>
> If the above is true, and you can't distinguish the flavor of one variety
> from another, why are people always asking others what their favorite
> espresso bean is? I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
> missing?
A greener or lighter roast may position an acidic extraction closer
bitterness, which should be no less apparent through milk in varying
amounts or if left settled to lie for a colloidal suspension, popularly
served in South American regions. Darker roasts, if not taken to
exremes, I'd suspect are not as M. Antol suggests, entirely expatriated
beans, but rather remain distinctive for added complexity;- while what
is particular yet may exist in the disparate of qualities of beans and
flavors, only moreover modified in advancing the roast;- so as there's
certainly no stedfast rule for same beans roasted by differing degrees
for a subsequent blend when suited lengths they lend. What I find
somewhat queer is M. Antol posing the French disadvantageously at
origins, due to a nationalistic preference for charcoaled coffee.
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 16:16:30
From: GeeDubb
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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"Frank103" <frank103@cox.net > wrote in message
news:7SO3h.10377$tH2.7212@newsfe20.lga...
> I'm reading a book about coffee written by Marie Antol. When discussing
> various kinds of roasts, the author writes about French Roast/Expresso:
> "If you like an exceptionally strong, heavy-bodied, low-acid coffee, this
> roast is for you. Just keep in mind that at this point, no distinctive
> varietal flavor remains. In otrher words, the coffee has lost the flavor
> that distinguishes one bean from another."
>
> Varietal - of, pertaining to, designating, or characteristic of a variety.
>
> If the above is true, and you can't distinguish the flavor of one variety
> from another, why are people always asking others what their favorite
> espresso bean is? I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
> missing?
>
> frank103"mymom"@cox.net
> To email just leave my mom out of this
>
a roast for espresso need not be roasted/burned to the point of not being
able to distinguish between varietals (referred to as an espresso roast).
Dark roasts generally cause the output to be more similar in taste
regardless of varietal, I believe, due to the carmelization of the sugars in
the coffee bean. For milk based drinks, a darker, charred tasting roast
tends to be evened out by the milk and often allows the flavor of the coffee
to be tasted amid the over powering presence of milk.
a lighter roast allows one to taste flavors specific to a varietal. Over
roasting Kona is just wrong since all the wonderful flavors get evened out
or undistinguishable.
but to add to this, under roasted coffee all tastes like grass (not the kind
one smokes but the kind one walks on, mows, has allergies to, etc.,) and
it's difficult to distinguish anything other than ......eeeeewwwwww!
so the reason we ask what one another's favorite espresso bean is is because
a good majority of us roast our own and don't roast to the point that this
author refers to.
Gary (now back to our favorite form of lurking)
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Date: 06 Nov 2006 17:56:57
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 14:41:06 -0800, "Frank103" <frank103@cox.net > wrote:
>If the above is true, and you can't distinguish the flavor of one variety
>from another, why are people always asking others what their favorite
>espresso bean is?
Because some of us don't use French roasted beans to make our espresso. We use
full-city roast, which hasn't lost nearly as much varietal flavor as French or
Italian roasted beans.
>I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
>missing?
Not much, since you're drinking milk rather than coffee. 8;)
-- Larry
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Date: 07 Nov 2006 09:33:43
From: Bill Patterson
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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Randy G. wrote:
> When anyone asks this question I suggest first looking into a local
> shop that roasts, or even a commercial roaster in your area.
I posted recently a query desperate to find even one local roaster in
Los Angeles that did not over-roast (the odor of dark-roasted coffees
turn my stomach). I was given the name of a local chain that had gone
out of business years ago. When I lived in San Francisco, I knew the
stores that roasted their own and could talk shop with the individual
maitres -- here I get croggled repeatedly. Yesterday I walked into a
shop in Westwood Village that had jars on the shelf but no listing on
the wall and got a blank stare and a "what does he mean" whispered
consultation with a co-worker (who didn't know eithet) when I asked for
"whole bean" instead of a latte or cappucino.
So far I am stuck with Peet's generic Ethiopian -- not too bad, but
every other bean is over-roasted to charcoal flavors, which seems
pointless to me. I would like to find a good source of Harrar Estates.
Any help would be appreciated.
For various reasons, home-roasting is not an option for me.
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Date: 07 Nov 2006 22:45:33
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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On 7 Nov 2006 09:33:43 -0800, "Bill Patterson" <WHPatterson@gmail.com >
wrote:
>I posted recently a query desperate to find even one local roaster in
>Los Angeles that did not over-roast (the odor of dark-roasted coffees
>turn my stomach). I was given the name of a local chain that had gone
>out of business years ago. ....
You got five replies, with recommendations for Groundwork, Supreme
Bean, Coffee Klatch and others. You got links to Ken David's Coffee
Review for reviews of local roasters of the specific origins you
requested. If you refuse to buy coffee, unless it roasted in walking
distance of your home, you will continue to be disappointed.
(See your thread "Sick of Overroasted" 10/7/06).
> Any help would be appreciated.
That seems doubtful.
Marshall
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Date: 08 Nov 2006 09:06:46
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What am I missing?
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pltrgyst wrote in response to Frank:
> >I'm mostly into the lattes and cappuccinos so what am I
> >missing?
>
> Not much, since you're drinking milk rather than coffee. 8;)
Don't be made to feel less sophisticated because you take milk in your
coffee. It is a common amusement of the coffee literati to assert that
one cannot "really" discern coffee flavors in a drink that contains
milk. I suspect that partly this is a response to the evil Star*ucks'
proclivity for selling grotesque milk-based concoctions.
It is perfectly fine to drink lattes and cappies and it does NOT make
you a second class citizen..
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