admittedly not coffee related...

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Date: 02 Sep 2006 07:03:07
From: Bill N
Subject: admittedly not coffee related...

but important!
I just got a phone call form a collection agency called Allied
Interstate. The representative was verbally abusive, harrassing and
threatening. All over a bill from Sears from back in the 1970's. And it
isn't even mine! (born in '69). Anyway, I did a bit of research, and
this company is doing this to many people across the states. They check
credit reports, and if there is an outstanding debt, they call
demanding payment. This is ILLEGAL! Unfortunately, it is very hard to
combat (although a bazooka would work in a pinch). I have already filed
complaint with the FCC (for violating the do not call registry), the
BBB and my state's attorney general.
So, heads up! If you get a call out of the blue from an extremely
abusive collection agency, do not automatically believe them.
Ok, I feel better now.
Bill (just had to vent, that's all) Nostrom

Date: 02 Sep 2006 12:02:14
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

More info here:

http://www.ag.state.mn.us/consumer/PR/PR_040616AlliedInterstate_JBC.htm

The MN suit goes back a couple of years, so apparently it has not gotten
them to stop.

Almost everywhere, the statute of limitations would bar enforcement of debts
that are that old in almost all cases. These vultures count on people being
ignorant of their legal rights and making voluntary payments that they are
not legally obligated to make.

In order for them to harass you on the phone you have to listen. Next time
someone like this calls, hang up. Don't even say goodbye - as soon as they
launch into their pitch - click.

I remember many years ago getting a similar call in the middle of the night.
I was so groggy that I actually spoke to them for a while. They accused me
of being someone else entirely, not even a similar name and I was so out of
it that I couldn't even formulate a clear comeback beyond monosyllables, and
they went on and on with their aggressive pitch. I wish I had a recording,
it would have been comical.

I've never understood why organizations like Sears make easy credit
available to poor people who don't really have the ability to repay. I
realize that they compensate by charging hefty interest rates and
overpricing the merchandise, but if you look at the amount of bad debt that
they incur, it is mind boggling. And of course it does the recipients harm
in the long run. They get the crappy sofa and coffee table up front, but
then every week becomes a struggle to keep up with debt. Sad really.

"Bill N" <NOSTROM1@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1157205787.172987.144410@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> but important!
> I just got a phone call form a collection agency called Allied
> Interstate. The representative was verbally abusive, harrassing and
> threatening. All over a bill from Sears from back in the 1970's. And it
> isn't even mine! (born in '69). Anyway, I did a bit of research, and
> this company is doing this to many people across the states. They check
> credit reports, and if there is an outstanding debt, they call
> demanding payment. This is ILLEGAL! Unfortunately, it is very hard to
> combat (although a bazooka would work in a pinch). I have already filed
> complaint with the FCC (for violating the do not call registry), the
> BBB and my state's attorney general.
> So, heads up! If you get a call out of the blue from an extremely
> abusive collection agency, do not automatically believe them.
> Ok, I feel better now.
> Bill (just had to vent, that's all) Nostrom
>

Date: 02 Sep 2006 21:23:59
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

On Sat, 2 Sep 2006, Jack Denver <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

> In order for them to harass you on the phone you have to listen. Next time
> someone like this calls, hang up. Don't even say goodbye - as soon as they
> launch into their pitch - click.

Actually, I prefer just quietly laying the handset down, and leave
them talking to thin air. Five minutes later, you can check if they
are still talking (they never are) and then hang up.

This way, at least they spend a little bit of time before annoying
someone else.

regards, Ian SMith
--

Date: 03 Sep 2006 07:53:52
From: Danny
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Ian Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2006, Jack Denver <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>> In order for them to harass you on the phone you have to listen. Next time
>> someone like this calls, hang up. Don't even say goodbye - as soon as they
>> launch into their pitch - click.
>
>
> Actually, I prefer just quietly laying the handset down, and leave
> them talking to thin air. Five minutes later, you can check if they
> are still talking (they never are) and then hang up.
>
> This way, at least they spend a little bit of time before annoying
> someone else.
>
> regards, Ian SMith

I often ask cold caller to "hold the line" when they ask to speak to
the homeowner. I then place the handset next to the radio, and play
them music whilst I go about my usual business. I come back later to
see if they have gone.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 02 Sep 2006 19:16:21
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> Almost everywhere, the statute of limitations would bar enforcement of
> debts that are that old in almost all cases. These vultures count on
> people being ignorant of their legal rights and making voluntary payments
> that they are not legally obligated to make.
>
> In order for them to harass you on the phone you have to listen. Next time
> someone like this calls, hang up. Don't even say goodbye - as soon as they
> launch into their pitch - click.

I don't even pick up in the first place. I screen all calls on my "public"
phone number. Legitimate businesses will leave a message telling you who
they are with and the purpose of the call. Telemarketers and collection
agencies will hang up. Luckily the "do not call" list has gotten rid of the
vast majority of the telemarketing calls.

I have this one "debt" that I consider invalid and refuse to pay. It is long
past the statute of limitations, but the collection agency hasn't given up.
They do leave a vague message every once in a while, but it's always without
a company name or a purpose. Most of the time, they just hang up. I suspect
they put these "dead accounts" in a grab bag for their employees to give a
try. Maybe they get some kind of improved incentive for collecting something
on these dead accounts.

I'm not too concerned about this one debt as it has never shown up on my
credit reports. I know I could stop the calls by formally requesting them to
do so, but I figure I'll just let them waste their time from now until
kingdom come. The debt is too small for them to take any other action with
me other than calling or writing threatening letters.

The internet is neat because you can look up the phone numbers and see who
is calling you, one way or another. This one collection agency has at least
five phone numbers they call from. If you can't figure out who they are in
any other way, call them back, but not from your own phone, as your number
is available to toll free numbers you call. This bugs the hell out of them,
when they can't figure out who you are. I remember doing this once and
talking to the guy who answered... he did venture the company name (which I
already had figured out), but refused to tell me their line of business. I
played along with him for awhile to see how angry he'd get, but he still
refused to say their line of business and I still refused to say who I was.
Eventually I told them "your a f*cking collection agency... you can take
that bill and shove it up your ass... I hope it feels good".

For any of you that aren't aware, collection agencies are often not
collecting for the original debt holder. The second and third tier
collectors have purchased the right to collect the debt for pennies on the
dollar. The original debt holder has written off the debt. The collection
agency gets to keep whatever it can extract. That's why they are so often
willing to settle for half or less of the original debt... after all, they
paid far less for the right to collect it. Anything they get above the price
they paid (subtracting their costs, of course) is pure profit. Rooms full of
low paid employees picking up on calls made by automatic dialers to make
threatening pitches doesn't cost much. Especially with how cheap
telecommunications costs are these days. I do suspect this one agency will
be calling me "forever".

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Date: 02 Sep 2006 10:52:37
From: DougW
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Bill N wrote:
> but important!
> I just got a phone call form a collection agency called Allied
> Interstate. The representative was verbally abusive, harrassing and
> threatening. All over a bill from Sears from back in the 1970's. And
> it isn't even mine! (born in '69). Anyway, I did a bit of research,
> and this company is doing this to many people across the states. They
> check credit reports, and if there is an outstanding debt, they call
> demanding payment. This is ILLEGAL! Unfortunately, it is very hard to
> combat (although a bazooka would work in a pinch). I have already
> filed complaint with the FCC (for violating the do not call
> registry), the BBB and my state's attorney general.
> So, heads up! If you get a call out of the blue from an extremely
> abusive collection agency, do not automatically believe them.
> Ok, I feel better now.
> Bill (just had to vent, that's all) Nostrom

They arn't the only company that does that.

I got one via snail-mail for a collection agency on a card that was never
mine, only the name was similar. They try to trick folks into making
very small payments and that small payment is used as proof that the
whole debt is yours and they then can go after property/bank account
etc.

Of course the letter was turned over to the US Postal Service Inspector
Generals Office. That reminds me, I need to check on what happened next.

Never got a phone call though. That would be interesting as I'd probably
bill them consulting time if they ever pulled that stunt on me. :)
Turnabout is fair play, eh.

Or... if one had a recorder they could AOL them. :D

If your in the U.S. you should probably go to https://www.annualcreditreport.com
And pull your credit reports to make sure nobody has messed up your credit
history. You can (U.S. Law) get one free report from each one of the
three agencies per year. That is the official site, although I wish they would
have used a .gov TLD.

--
DougW

Date: 02 Sep 2006 19:36:21
From: Caesar
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Several years I got a credit card from a national bank and the limit
was $300 to start. I made my payments on time and one month I did not
get a bill. I had maxed the card out, so they assessed me a $30 late
fee and $30 over limit fee as the first fine put me over the limit. I
called them and was very nice and asked them to do a courtesy reversal
of the fines since I did not get a statement. They would do nothing,
not budge, nor would I. That was about 3 years ago. The bill is now
about $1500, $1200 in over limit and overdue fines.

A collection agency is harassing me like crazy. I always tell them, at
the onset of the phone call, that I am on disability and they know
that money cannot be touched in court. I tell them I am willing to pay
what I owe and nothing else. But, I want it in writing that is
agreeable by them. They won't do it and keep calling. Last time they
wanted to know what my intentions were and I said that I have no
intentions. They were pissed. My attorney told me to tell them to do
whatever they have to in order to protect their interests and hang up.
They refuse to believe my story about the bill not coming. I said that
I don't expect them to, but that is what happened. I believe the bank
does that to everyone, once in a while, and then multiply the fines
and the millions they probably do that to and do the math. Millions in
profits.

Tomorrow I will feel guilty when I grind my imported coffee beans and
have excellent coffee, knowing what those collectors must be drinking
(drip, sitting there all day long-Yuck!) while trying to get my few
dollars... ;)

Caesar

Date: 03 Sep 2006 00:30:11
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"Caesar" <ferrante276-caesar@yahoo.com > wrote:
> Several years I got a credit card from a national bank and the limit
> was $300 to start. I made my payments on time and one month I did not
> get a bill. I had maxed the card out, so they assessed me a $30 late
> fee and $30 over limit fee as the first fine put me over the limit. I
> called them and was very nice and asked them to do a courtesy reversal
> of the fines since I did not get a statement. They would do nothing,
> not budge, nor would I. That was about 3 years ago. The bill is now
> about $1500, $1200 in over limit and overdue fines.

One of the things that is interesting about debt law is at some point after
account inactivity, the debt amount gets frozen, and no new interest or fees
can be added to it. It is often recommended for people that are totally in
over their heads on credit card debt (and have no chance of EVER catching
up) to stop paying on the account (and of course stop charging!). Otherwise
any payment made, no matter how small and how well intentioned, keeps the
account in play for further interest and fees. Kind of counterintuitive, but
true.

Also, with regards to the statute of limitations, making payments restarts
the clock. Say one hasn't made a payment on an account in 35 months, and the
statute of limitations is 3 years. If one makes a payment at that point, the
statute of limitations restarts at that payment date. So rather than
expiring the following month, another 3 years has to pass. Statute of
limitations varies by state and type of debt, but for things like
installment contracts, is in the 3-5 year range. Though the statute of
limitations may expire, the time limit for unfavorable credit information in
one's credit report is much longer at 7 years.

There are lots of references on the net about debt law. One has to be
careful about credit counseling services, because many are yet another leech
trying bleed money out of one.

> They refuse to believe my story about the bill not coming. I said that
> I don't expect them to, but that is what happened. I believe the bank
> does that to everyone, once in a while, and then multiply the fines
> and the millions they probably do that to and do the math. Millions in
> profits.

I guess the problem here is sometimes the bill just doesn't come through no
fault of the bank. I've seen enough misdirected mail over the years to know
that it's not as infrequent as one would hope. I've gotten mail for nearby
houses many times (with close address numbers) and for houses at a
considerable distance with similar street names. If the recipient of the
misdirected mail doesn't return it back to the post office, it just never
arrives. I'm sure if bank believed these stories by default, the number of
"statement never arrived" cases would explode.

I don't think banks have to go to these extremes to extract money from
credit card holders. They have the deck stacked enough through all their
other interest rate policies and fees. Two of my "favorites" are the concept
of universal default and credit limit exceeded fees. Universal default is
when you miss a payment on ANY account you hold, and your interest rate on
totally unrelated accounts can go sky high. Credit limit exceeded fees...
how can that happen? In the "old days", credit limits were hard... they
couldn't be exceeded. Then they got this brilliant idea of soft credit
limits. They let you go over and then charge you exhorbitant fees for doing
so.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:48:53
From: Caesar
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

>
>Also, with regards to the statute of limitations, making payments restarts
>the clock. Say one hasn't made a payment on an account in 35 months, and the
>statute of limitations is 3 years. If one makes a payment at that point, the
>statute of limitations restarts at that payment date. So rather than
>expiring the following month, another 3 years has to pass. Statute of
>limitations varies by state and type of debt, but for things like
>installment contracts, is in the 3-5 year range.

Happen to know the SOL in Ohio for this sort of thing?

Date: 03 Sep 2006 20:37:07
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"Caesar" <ferrante276-caesar@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:9bcmf2ha3d1c9qgsilomrnvaj4okdk19c8@4ax.com...
>
>>
>>Also, with regards to the statute of limitations, making payments restarts
>>the clock. Say one hasn't made a payment on an account in 35 months, and
>>the
>>statute of limitations is 3 years. If one makes a payment at that point,
>>the
>>statute of limitations restarts at that payment date. So rather than
>>expiring the following month, another 3 years has to pass. Statute of
>>limitations varies by state and type of debt, but for things like
>>installment contracts, is in the 3-5 year range.
>
> Happen to know the SOL in Ohio for this sort of thing?

From what I've been able to look up on the net, it is 4 years for open
accounts (credit cards) in Ohio. The clock starts running from the last
account activity. But if at any point along the way, you made any kind of
promise to pay, that qualifies as activity just as an actual payment would.

The SOL is much longer in Ohio for written contracts than most other states,
at 15 years. I'd have to confirm this, but I think things such as car loans
or a specific loan with a time payment plan for a major appliance would be
in this category. Open accounts means the credit is extended for any
purchase on an ongoing basis, not for just one item or purchase.

A google search on terms like ("collection agency", "statute of
limitations", "debt") gives tons of hits. That's where I quickly found a
state by state list of the SOL.

Just as an aside, I've gotten five no message left, no caller ID number
available phone calls in the last four hours, which I believe to be the
collection agency that is hounding me for a small debt well past the statute
of limitations. Sometimes weeks go by with no calls, and some days are like
today. I just let the answering machine handle it.

I do have a separate phone number for friends, family, etc. Not two physical
phone lines, but two phone numbers, though I did have two physical phone
lines years ago before I got DSL. A second phone number is dramatically less
costly than a second physical line. It rings with a different ring so I can
instantly recognize whether it's my public number or private number that is
being called. Like I said before, legitimate businesses (not telemarketers
and collection agencies) will normally leave messages.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Date: 03 Sep 2006 19:12:56
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

If you have broadband service and get a VOIP adapter, the cost of an
incoming line can be as little as zero. There are a few services that will
give you a free INCOMING # - it may not be in your local area code.

For example , I use www.Stanaphone.com

They assigned me a # in the 914 (NY Westchester) area code, which suits me
fine because I have some clients there - they save on LD when they call me.

This is not Skype or some computer to computer type service - the hardware
adapter plugs into your router on one end and a regular dial telephone on
the other - your friends can call you from their home phones even if they
are extremely technology challenged and own only dial telephones. You don't
have to have your computer turned on to use it.

I use the same adapter as is used for the Vonage service (PAP2), which I
received free after rebate, so the whole business cost me nothing. Quality
is comparable to talking on a cell phone (another form of digital
telephony).

They will also sell you outgoing LD minutes at under 2 cents/minute.
Voicemails arrive as sound files attached to email messages (lately they
have been inserting brief commercials on the playback end - annoying but
they gotta get revenue somewhere). You're supposed to get faxes that way
too, but I use www.k7.net for that - again they assign you a # in some far
off area code, but it is your personal fax # and faxes are turned into tif
files and arrive in the email. Get rid of that fax machine and the line for
it.

How do these companies do it? It turns out that when you make an LD call,
the revenue gets split between the your LD carrier and your local phone co.,
which gets a fraction of a cent from each incoming minute for completing the
call the last few miles over its "local network" after the LD trunk ends.
Since these services "count" as local phone cos., they get that money
instead. It's not much, but neither does it cost much to run a VOIP service.

If you own any telephone co. stock , sell, sell sell - once people start
giving away your product for free, the game is over.

"wff_ng_7" <nosuchuser@invalid.gov > wrote in message
news:T1HKg.3062$CL6.584@trnddc06...
> "Caesar" <ferrante276-caesar@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:9bcmf2ha3d1c9qgsilomrnvaj4okdk19c8@4ax.com...
>>
>>>
>>>Also, with regards to the statute of limitations, making payments
>>>restarts
>>>the clock. Say one hasn't made a payment on an account in 35 months, and
>>>the
>>>statute of limitations is 3 years. If one makes a payment at that point,
>>>the
>>>statute of limitations restarts at that payment date. So rather than
>>>expiring the following month, another 3 years has to pass. Statute of
>>>limitations varies by state and type of debt, but for things like
>>>installment contracts, is in the 3-5 year range.
>>
>> Happen to know the SOL in Ohio for this sort of thing?
>
> From what I've been able to look up on the net, it is 4 years for open
> accounts (credit cards) in Ohio. The clock starts running from the last
> account activity. But if at any point along the way, you made any kind of
> promise to pay, that qualifies as activity just as an actual payment
> would.
>
> The SOL is much longer in Ohio for written contracts than most other
> states, at 15 years. I'd have to confirm this, but I think things such as
> car loans or a specific loan with a time payment plan for a major
> appliance would be in this category. Open accounts means the credit is
> extended for any purchase on an ongoing basis, not for just one item or
> purchase.
>
> A google search on terms like ("collection agency", "statute of
> limitations", "debt") gives tons of hits. That's where I quickly found a
> state by state list of the SOL.
>
> Just as an aside, I've gotten five no message left, no caller ID number
> available phone calls in the last four hours, which I believe to be the
> collection agency that is hounding me for a small debt well past the
> statute of limitations. Sometimes weeks go by with no calls, and some days
> are like today. I just let the answering machine handle it.
>
> I do have a separate phone number for friends, family, etc. Not two
> physical phone lines, but two phone numbers, though I did have two
> physical phone lines years ago before I got DSL. A second phone number is
> dramatically less costly than a second physical line. It rings with a
> different ring so I can instantly recognize whether it's my public number
> or private number that is being called. Like I said before, legitimate
> businesses (not telemarketers and collection agencies) will normally leave
> messages.
>
> --
> ( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )
>

Date: 04 Sep 2006 01:54:49
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> If you have broadband service and get a VOIP adapter, the cost of an
> incoming line can be as little as zero. There are a few services that
> will give you a free INCOMING # - it may not be in your local area code.
>
> For example , I use www.Stanaphone.com
>
> They assigned me a # in the 914 (NY Westchester) area code, which suits me
> fine because I have some clients there - they save on LD when they call
> me.
>
> This is not Skype or some computer to computer type service - the hardware
> adapter plugs into your router on one end and a regular dial telephone on
> the other - your friends can call you from their home phones even if they
> are extremely technology challenged and own only dial telephones. You
> don't have to have your computer turned on to use it.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll look into this again and reevaluate things. One
of the problems is I am a cheap bastard and am always looking for the lowest
cost solution. In reality, I don't use the phone much, but I do want it to
be rock solid reliable when I do use it. I looked at Vonage a while back,
and even their entry level plan at about $15 and 500 minutes was too many
minutes for me.

One of the problems is how I get broadband. I currently have DSL. That is
the cheapest solution, as I don't have cable TV service, and broadband over
cable is pretty steep, particularly without the TV. Perhaps things have
changed also regarding DSL. I hear Verizon is offering "naked DSL" (without
voice), at least in some markets. That was news to me. That might change the
whole equation. Actually, Verizon more or less told me this themselves, when
they dropped one fee and added another recently, saying the new fee was to
fund unbundled DSL service. What one hand giveth, the other hand taketh
away. Sneaky bastards, with their fees. The FCC got wind of this latest scam
of theirs (and Bell South too?), and they backed off.

I'm not technology adverse... I'm just very selective these days. I was an
early adopter at one time. I've still got my very early HP 45 calculator and
a Pulsar digital watch from the 1970s, and an early CD player from the 1980s
(all working). On the VOIP phone thing, with the adapter for regular old
telephones, I've already pondered how I might use that in my house. What I'd
really like to do is run all my existing voice phone lines through it, so I
could keep my existing setup with my "antique" telephones. I've got a late
1960s vintage rotary dial Princess, an early 1970s vintage touchtone
Trimline, and an early 1980s vintage touchtone wall phone. All those are
Western Electric, almost over engineered by today's standards, but they were
made for the long haul, in the rental market back then. All three of these
phones have been with my family since they were new.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Date: 03 Sep 2006 22:49:47
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Basically, all you have to do is plug the VOIP gizmo into any wall jack and
all your other phones will work - the jacks are all in parallel. That's
alll there is to it. It's important if you do that to disconnect your house
wiring from the old incoming trunk or it will zap your gizmo next lightening
storm. Usually there is an interface box near where the wire comes in from
overhead or underground and disconnecting the house wiring is as simple as
unplugging the modular jumper jack that is in that box.

The only caveat is that the VOIP boxes have limited ringer power - something
like RON 3 I think. Every phone has a "ringer equivalent number" which is
the amount of power it takes to ring the bell. Old original Western Electric
phones with the electromechanical bell have RON 1.0. Modern phones use
less - RON .5 or less - every modern phone is usually marked with this #.
You add together all the RONs and if they exceed the power of the gizmo,
your phones won't ring. There are devices that boost ringer power but they
are not cheap. The alternative is to disconnect some of the bells - you
probably can hear the bell from another room.

Vonage is way overpriced - there are better and cheaper service available,
especially if you don't do a lot of LD.

I'd recommend keeping a bare minimum POTS (plain old telephone service)
line - this might be something like $12 or $15/month. VOIP is not 100%
reliable - it goes down every time your broadband connection goes down and
also whenever the VOIP provider goes down. When my VOIP goes down I don't
care b.c. I have a wire line backup. If I didn't I'd have torn it out as
unreliable a while ago, because altogether it's a LOT less reliable than
POTS- they've had 120 years to perfect that service. If I were paying
$30/month to Vonage and my service went down, I'd be really upset, even if
it were Comcasts fault, but Stanaphone for free owes me nothing. Another
consideration is some of the free solutions (Stanaphone) don't get you
automatically to your local 911 (the more expensive ones are supposed to,
which is why they are not available in all areas). With the more expensive
services you can also port existing phone #'s over to VOIP. So a barebones
POTS service for local calls plus a near-free (pay for LD only @ 2c/min.)
VOIP I think adds up to a good package. OTOH if you have a reliable cell
phone connection in your house you might not need the wire line as a backup.

"wff_ng_7" <nosuchuser@invalid.gov > wrote in message
news:JHLKg.1434$xh4.1388@trnddc04...
>
> Thanks for the pointer. I'll look into this again and reevaluate things.
> One of the problems is I am a cheap bastard and am always looking for the
> lowest cost solution. In reality, I don't use the phone much, but I do
> want it to be rock solid reliable when I do use it. I looked at Vonage a
> while back, and even their entry level plan at about $15 and 500 minutes
> was too many minutes for me.
>
> One of the problems is how I get broadband. I currently have DSL. That is
> the cheapest solution, as I don't have cable TV service, and broadband
> over cable is pretty steep, particularly without the TV. Perhaps things
> have changed also regarding DSL. I hear Verizon is offering "naked DSL"
> (without voice), at least in some markets. That was news to me. That might
> change the whole equation. Actually, Verizon more or less told me this
> themselves, when they dropped one fee and added another recently, saying
> the new fee was to fund unbundled DSL service. What one hand giveth, the
> other hand taketh away. Sneaky bastards, with their fees. The FCC got wind
> of this latest scam of theirs (and Bell South too?), and they backed off.
>
> I'm not technology adverse... I'm just very selective these days. I was an
> early adopter at one time. I've still got my very early HP 45 calculator
> and a Pulsar digital watch from the 1970s, and an early CD player from the
> 1980s (all working). On the VOIP phone thing, with the adapter for regular
> old telephones, I've already pondered how I might use that in my house.
> What I'd really like to do is run all my existing voice phone lines
> through it, so I could keep my existing setup with my "antique"
> telephones. I've got a late 1960s vintage rotary dial Princess, an early
> 1970s vintage touchtone Trimline, and an early 1980s vintage touchtone
> wall phone. All those are Western Electric, almost over engineered by
> today's standards, but they were made for the long haul, in the rental
> market back then. All three of these phones have been with my family since
> they were new.
>
> --
> ( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )
>

Date: 04 Sep 2006 03:20:40
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> The only caveat is that the VOIP boxes have limited ringer power -
> something like RON 3 I think. Every phone has a "ringer equivalent number"
> which is the amount of power it takes to ring the bell. Old original
> Western Electric phones with the electromechanical bell have RON 1.0.
> Modern phones use less - RON .5 or less - every modern phone is usually
> marked with this #. You add together all the RONs and if they exceed the
> power of the gizmo, your phones won't ring. There are devices that boost
> ringer power but they are not cheap. The alternative is to disconnect some
> of the bells - you probably can hear the bell from another room.

Thanks for the reminder on the ringer equivalence number. I've already run
into that problem even with my normal land line. When I got the Princess
phone from my mother, I had to do some fooling with the wiring inside the
phone to get the bell to work (it had been disabled). In testing it for the
bell, I unplugged the Trimline and plugged the Princess in there. Once I got
it wired internally properly, I installed a new jack and plugged it in. But
then the bell no longer worked. I was over the max that my phone line would
drive with both the Princess and Trimline plugged in. Three mechanical bell
phones, plus my other electronic phones and devices was too much.

I tried to confirm with Verizon what the max RON was that they'd allow here.
Locally, their tech support couldn't tell me. They had no idea what a ringer
equivalence number was, not a clue. I called Verizon's corporate problem
escalation number, and asked the same question. They said they'd get right
on it. Even at that level, they couldn't find anyone who knew anything about
the topic. I was astounded. Surely there are still thousands of employees
working for Verizon that are familiar with the concept, but I guess it has
gotten so obscure that no one in their technical support chain does.

When I got the Princess, I found a very informative web site about the
history of the Bell System and all its phones. They had wiring diagrams and
internal layout pictures of many of the phones, including the Princess. I
also found out what voltage and amperage I needed to drive the lighted dial.
By chance I had just had a modern (post 2002) AT&T digital answering machine
with timestamp die... what pieces of crap they make these days... but it's
wall wart had just the right power rating to drive the Princess's dial
light! ;-)

The Bell System Memorial site is at http://bellsystemmemorial.com/index.html
if anyone is interested.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Date: 04 Sep 2006 13:11:51
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Date: 04 Sep 2006 11:18:30
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Sorry it was late and I was tired. After I sent it I realized that something
was wrong with my acronym but I was too lazy to correct it.

Here's a page that goes into a lot of detail on this subject:

http://michigantelephone.mi.org/distribute.html

"wff_ng_7" <nosuchuser@invalid.gov > wrote in message
news:rCVKg.4493$ub5.1660@trnddc07...
> Something seemed wrong about RON... but I blindly copied it. REN is
> "Ringer Equivalence Number", while RON is "Research ane Number". The
> mystery of abbreviations. I suppose neither term would have much meaning
> to those younger than a certain age.
>
> --
> ( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )
>

Date: 04 Sep 2006 14:30:57
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Jack Denver wrote:
> Sorry it was late and I was tired. After I sent it I realized that something
> was wrong with my acronym...

You apparently never watched Ron and Stimpy.

--
St. John
You know it's Monday when you wake up and it's Tuesday.
-Garfield

Date: 04 Sep 2006 14:55:17
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com > wrote in message
news:edhrd1$u4e$8@n4vu2.n4vu.com...
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> Sorry it was late and I was tired. After I sent it I realized that
>> something
>> was wrong with my acronym...
>
> You apparently never watched Ron and Stimpy.
>

That's Ren & Stimpy.. {;-D
Craig.

> --
> St. John
> You know it's Monday when you wake up and it's Tuesday.
> -Garfield

Date: 04 Sep 2006 15:11:41
From: St. John Smythe
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

Craig Andrews wrote:
> "St. John Smythe" <sinjen@n4vu.com> wrote to Jack in message
> news:edhrd1$u4e$8@n4vu2.n4vu.com...
>>
>> You apparently never watched Ron and Stimpy.
>
> That's Ren & Stimpy.. {;-D

Q.E.D.

--
St. John
"It's like deja vu all over again."
-Yogi Berra

Date: 04 Sep 2006 04:51:33
From: Randy R
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"wff_ng_7" <nosuchuser@invalid.gov > wrote in message
news:T1HKg.3062$CL6.584@trnddc06...

> Just as an aside, I've gotten five no message left, no caller ID number
> available phone calls in the last four hours, which I believe to be the
> collection agency that is hounding me for a small debt well past the
> statute of limitations. Sometimes weeks go by with no calls, and some days
> are like today. I just let the answering machine handle it.
>
> I do have a separate phone number for friends, family, etc. Not two
> physical phone lines, but two phone numbers, though I did have two
> physical phone lines years ago before I got DSL. A second phone number is
> dramatically less costly than a second physical line. It rings with a
> different ring so I can instantly recognize whether it's my public number
> or private number that is being called. Like I said before, legitimate
> businesses (not telemarketers and collection agencies) will normally leave
> messages.
>

I'll have to look into that. For a while I just turned off the ringer on the
phone because we were getting 4 to 8 phone calls a day from a collection
agency. I hate it when they call and leave a message asking me to call them
back, with no indication of what the call was about.

Randy R

Date: 04 Sep 2006 13:19:43
From: wff_ng_7
Subject: Re: admittedly not coffee related...

"Randy R" <nospam@rostie.net > wrote:
> "wff_ng_7" <nosuchuser@invalid.gov> wrote in message
>> I do have a separate phone number for friends, family, etc. Not two
>> physical phone lines, but two phone numbers, though I did have two
>> physical phone lines years ago before I got DSL. A second phone number is
>> dramatically less costly than a second physical line. It rings with a
>> different ring so I can instantly recognize whether it's my public number
>> or private number that is being called. Like I said before, legitimate
>> businesses (not telemarketers and collection agencies) will normally
>> leave messages.
>>
>
> I'll have to look into that. For a while I just turned off the ringer on
> the phone because we were getting 4 to 8 phone calls a day from a
> collection agency. I hate it when they call and leave a message asking me
> to call them back, with no indication of what the call was about.

The feature of having two (or more) phone numbers on a single physical phone
line is called "Distinctive Ring" in Verizon territory. I had two physical
phone lines for many years, with two numbers. When I dropped the second
physical line, Verizon let me transfer the number over to the Distinctive
Ring feature, which was very convenient... I didn't have to tell any of my
friends or relatives that anything had changed, or to call me on a different
number.

Note that you really only have one phone line... with two numbers that give
different ring sounds when called. If you are on the line, both numbers will
indicate busy to any callers.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )