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Main
Date: 10 Jul 2006 23:53:51
From: Alan
Subject: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
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I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the range
of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the impressions
I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if I'm wrong,
but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
(heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water, and
the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much as
40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an ideal (and
consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making a
decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I
settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would one
reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
consistent temperature? Thank you.
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 22:04:14
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote:
>I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the range
>of $500-$700)...
>
That's a good thing.There are a lot of good machines in that range,
and some for even less.
>... but I've been a little dismayed at some of the impressions
>I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if I'm wrong,
>but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
>(heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water, and
>the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much as
>40 degrees according to one website I read).
>
A Heat Exchanger (HX) is sort of a boiler-in-a-boiler design. The
inner, smaller container contains the brew water. The larger, outer
boiler is where the heat energy is created and that energy is
"exchanged" to the inner boiler. The outer boiler also holds the steam
for stretching milk.
The HX machine scan be very good- or bad depending on the design. For
any specific machine check the Google archives or the user reviews at
http://www.coffeegeek.com
>...Since an ideal (and
>consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making a
>decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I
>settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
>PID-retrofitting?
>
"Need" is a loaded term. No espresso machine needs a PID, and I would
suggest not even thinking about that for some time to come. Far more
important is:
1) A REALLY good grinder- it is more important than the espresso
machine. If you don't have one already, it will cost AT LEAST $200
just for a good grinder.
2) FRESH, quality coffee. All the rest is a waste of money if you
can't get TRUELY fresh coffee. That means a week's worth of coffee
should be in your hands before it is a week old.
>.. Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
>that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would one
>reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
>consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
Temperature is just one variable. There are so many others that you
shouldn't worry about it right now. My advice is:
1) Decide on a budget.
2) Pick a grinder
3) Use the remainder for the machine
4) Leave a bit for accessories- you will need a good tamper at least.
Take baby steps- it won't happen all at once.
Randy "almost 6 years and still learning" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 20:22:34
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
The "vary by 40 degrees" line is misleading. It's true that a HX will
gradually come to equal the temperature of the boiler it is immersed in if
it sits long enough, which is much hotter than you want. It's also true
that if you flush a few oz. of water out of the HX it rapidly comes to the
correct brew temperature. Although PID conversions are a good idea and are
not very expensive, even a non- PID HX machine can achieve very consistent
brew temperatures once you adopt the proper flushing or "temperature
surfing" routine. If HX machines varied by 40 degrees in actual use, they
would not have achieved the tremendous popularity that they have - almost
all commercial espresso machines except for a few are based on HXes.
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if
> I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating
> the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature
> (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an
> ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential
> for making a decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX"
> machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are
> going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700
> price range that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how
> much would one reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that
> will brew at a consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 03:11:31
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 23:53:51 GMT, "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the range
>of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the impressions
>I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if I'm wrong,
>but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
>(heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water, and
>the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much as
>40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an ideal (and
>consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making a
>decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I
>settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
>PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
>that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would one
>reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
>consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
This is old news but :
Unless you plan to get a very good burr grinder and perfect your
technique, all the PIDs in the world won't help any machine.
If it were my $700, I'd get a Macap or better grinder and a used
Gaggia or ???? from eBay and PID the Gaggia later.
Why a Macap or better? Can't find many posts on the web for problems
with top drawer grinders. Not the case with the 2nd tier grinders.
Biggest single improvement to date in making espresso is moving to
Macap M4 Stepless from Solis Maestro with detours though KitchenAid
Pro100 and Baratza Virtuoso. Same story on either tricked out Solis
SL90 or Vibiemme Domobar Super.
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 02:47:37
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
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On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 23:53:51 GMT, "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com >
wrote:
>I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the range
>of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the impressions
>I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if I'm wrong,
>but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
>(heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water, and
>the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much as
>40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an ideal (and
>consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making a
>decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I
>settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
>PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
>that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would one
>reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
>consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
It sounds like you're in an early phase of Espresso Appreciation 101.
I would not worry about precise temperature controls for the time
being. Work on your grind and tamp, which will take plenty of fine
tuning in themselves. When you're making pretty good espresso on a
regular basis, you can look into adding precise temperature controls,
which will enable you to make really good espresso on a regular basis.
In your price range, you're best off with a non-HX machine (I don't
actually think you have any choices in new HX machines), such as a
Silvia.
Precise temperature control, whether by PID or cold water injection,
is the cutting edge of commercial machine design and has become a
major concern for manufacturers (check the La Marzocco and Nuovo
Simonelli websites). But, I think it is a waste of money and a
distraction for consumers first learning to grind and tamp properly.
Keep your variables to a minimum and don't worry about temperature
until your pours look like the "espresso porn" videos.
Marshall
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 21:48:04
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:lo36b2hge5hhf33u0g3ufeegmqjnci9dc6@4ax.com...
>>>
>
> It sounds like you're in an early phase of Espresso Appreciation 101.
> I would not worry about precise temperature controls for the time
> being. Work on your grind and tamp, which will take plenty of fine
> tuning in themselves. When you're making pretty good espresso on a
> regular basis, you can look into adding precise temperature controls,
> which will enable you to make really good espresso on a regular basis.
> In your price range, you're best off with a non-HX machine (I don't
> actually think you have any choices in new HX machines), such as a
> Silvia.
>
> Precise temperature control, whether by PID or cold water injection,
> is the cutting edge of commercial machine design and has become a
> major concern for manufacturers (check the La Marzocco and Nuovo
> Simonelli websites). But, I think it is a waste of money and a
> distraction for consumers first learning to grind and tamp properly.
> Keep your variables to a minimum and don't worry about temperature
> until your pours look like the "espresso porn" videos.
>
> Marshall
I want to second what Marshall is saying; although I am the "King of PIDing
Heat Exchangers," I view my equipment as an experimental testbed from which
I post frequent incredibly long and boring posts that most people, including
Marshall, can't force themselves to read:-)
I remain unconvinced that the vast majority of people can even TASTE what
small brew temperature differences do to espresso. In my very-not-so-humble
opinion, most of us would be lucky if we could taste 2 degree C/3 degree F
differences, even if we think otherwise. Do you think the skin on your
hand, among the most sensitive in your body, can tell the difference between
200 degrees and 203 degrees F? I don't know about your hands but I think
both of mine would interpret both temperatures as F'in hot. The only cheese
that the average American eats regularly are plastic wrapped "American
Singles" and most people think that farmed salmon is edible. Taking these
reference points, do you honestly think that most people can taste the sorts
of temperature differences we are talking about? I sure don't.
I suggest you don't take yourself too seriously in this little quest of
yours to get into espresso. A reasonably good home barista with a <$300
gaggia and a good grinder can make much better espressos and espresso drinks
at home than are made on the multithousand dollar machines one finds in most
cafes. The important ingredients are good fresh coffee, a good grinder, and
a barista who gives a sh*t.
Do yourself a favor and buy a good grinder, at least a Rancilio Rocky (I'd
suggest a Mazzer Mini or even a Cimbali Junior) then spend the rest of your
budget on a Gaggia or a Silvia. Learn how to make espresso with this stuff
and you will be able to ebay the espresso machine next year for almost what
you paid for it, keep the grinder, and buy the espresso machine of your
dreams.
ken
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 22:00:09
From: Juan Valdez
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
After reading all the posts about pidding a coffeemaker you start to think
pidding is a normal behavior....but its not!
The pid crowd is nucking futz. You don't need to pid your coffeemaker. These
people are kooks.
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if
> I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating
> the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature
> (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an
> ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential
> for making a decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX"
> machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are
> going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700
> price range that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how
> much would one reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that
> will brew at a consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
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Date: 10 Jul 2006 22:08:34
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
"Juan Valdez" <* > wrote:
>After reading all the posts about pidding a coffeemaker you start to think
>pidding is a normal behavior....but its not!
>The pid crowd is nucking futz. You don't need to pid your coffeemaker. These
>people are kooks.
>
Have you tried one? Are you speaking from experience or out of
delusion? Do you really know good espresso or have your medication
levels changed again?
No, you do not NEED to add PID to an espresso machine.
Does it help? Yes, if you have the other variables controlled. The
great benefit of PID is that temperture varies widely with any home
machine regardless of what you do. SInce even inexperienced users
state that they can taste the difference if changing the temp one or
tweo degrees, the 10 or 15 degree swing that many machines exhibit can
really make things difficult.
Randy "did someone forget to lock the gate again" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 05:49:09
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:08:34 -0700, Randy G. <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com >
wrote:
>"Juan Valdez" <*> wrote:
>
>>After reading all the posts about pidding a coffeemaker you start to think
>>pidding is a normal behavior....but its not!
>>The pid crowd is nucking futz. You don't need to pid your coffeemaker. These
>>people are kooks.
>>
>
>Have you tried one? Are you speaking from experience or out of
>delusion? Do you really know good espresso or have your medication
>levels changed again?
>
RG, shame on you, this is how Flame Wars and Pie Fights start...
Clearly, JV has his wires crossed. The last ac post including
'coffeemaker' and PID was Feb 2004!
And anyone using 'normal behavior' wro ac, isn't... ;-P
... I think you've been trolled ;-)
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 14:06:13
From: Rusty
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
Well... you mean to say the extremely consistent top quality brew I've been
getting since I PID'd Silvia is all in my mind?
Silly me, I could have saved myself some bucks and spent it on a shrink
instead.
Rusty
"Juan Valdez" <* > wrote in message news:e8v0nc02qnc@news4.newsguy.com...
> After reading all the posts about pidding a coffeemaker you start to think
> pidding is a normal behavior....but its not!
> The pid crowd is nucking futz. You don't need to pid your coffeemaker.
> These people are kooks.
>
>
> "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
>> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
>> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me
>> if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
>> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for
>> heating the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew
>> temperature (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I
>> read). Since an ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would
>> seem to be essential for making a decent espresso, am I correct in
>> assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss quality,
>> which I won't) are going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX
>> machines in the 500-700 price range that CAN deliver a consistent brew
>> temperature? If not, how much would one reasonably expect to pay for a
>> pump driven machine that will brew at a consistent temperature? Thank
>> you.
>>
>
>
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 11:10:58
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
You're making a basically valid point, but I think you're overstating the
case a bit.
Any time you read an "enthusiast" forum it's easy to get the wrong idea and
come to believe that cutting edge equipment is really a minimum requirement
when in reality only "advanced" users will get any benefit from the
equipment. A $10,000 record turntable would be a total waste of money for
me, because (A) the rest of my equipment is not up to that level and (B)
even if it were, my ears wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway.
However, in other cases, beginners can easily benefit from high quality
equipment - for example in the case of grinders, even the greenest beginner
will instantly and noticeably improve his shots if he gets a high quality
grinder. Sometime the beginner even benefits MORE than the advanced user.
This is true of PID to a certain extent - an advanced user may be able to
"surf" a poorly controlled machine and come up with a good shot, so he can
get away with a non-PID machine, whereas a beginner may have no idea what "
temperature surfing" is and so needs a well controlled machine if is to have
any chance of pulling a good shot.
You're right that PID is not an absolute necessity, but neither is it a
crazy thing to do, especially since it doesn't cost a fortune to implement.
I converted my HX machine to PID control for under $100 total, not so much
to get better control of the machine (though it certainly did that) but to
get rid of an unreliable pressurestat, and I've been extremely happy with
the results. And I'm not a raging gadget freak/early adopter type at all.
"Juan Valdez" <* > wrote in message news:e8v0nc02qnc@news4.newsguy.com...
> After reading all the posts about pidding a coffeemaker you start to think
> pidding is a normal behavior....but its not!
> The pid crowd is nucking futz. You don't need to pid your coffeemaker.
> These people are kooks.
>
>
> "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
>> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
>> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me
>> if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
>> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for
>> heating the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew
>> temperature (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I
>> read). Since an ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would
>> seem to be essential for making a decent espresso, am I correct in
>> assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss quality,
>> which I won't) are going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX
>> machines in the 500-700 price range that CAN deliver a consistent brew
>> temperature? If not, how much would one reasonably expect to pay for a
>> pump driven machine that will brew at a consistent temperature? Thank
>> you.
>>
>
>
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| |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 00:56:05
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
Sorta, almost, correct there Alan,
In the $500 - $700 range you'll not find any HX machines with digital temp
controls. For that the tariff is more like $1200 and up, way up. But HX
machines DO use boilers to heat the water for extraction. The HX is for
steaming milk. Without a bunch of details the HX permits you to steam milk
while pulling shots. This is in place of a second dedicated boiler for that
purpose.
In the price range you've indicated you're probably better off buying a
sub-$500 machine & either adding a PID yourself or paying someone approx.
$200 to do it for you. There are regular posters here that will happily sell
you a kit or the entire machine, PID & all.
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if
> I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating
> the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature
> (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an
> ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential
> for making a decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX"
> machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are
> going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700
> price range that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how
> much would one reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that
> will brew at a consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
|
| | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 13:42:32
From: Brent
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
> Sorta, almost, correct there Alan,
> In the $500 - $700 range you'll not find any HX machines with digital temp
> controls. For that the tariff is more like $1200 and up, way up. But HX
> machines DO use boilers to heat the water for extraction. The HX is for
> steaming milk.
The HX is for heating the brew water, it's in the boiler, which is for
steaming milk
Without a bunch of details the HX permits you to steam milk
> while pulling shots. This is in place of a second dedicated boiler for
> that purpose.
>
> In the price range you've indicated you're probably better off buying a
> sub-$500 machine & either adding a PID yourself or paying someone approx.
> $200 to do it for you. There are regular posters here that will happily
> sell you a kit or the entire machine, PID & all.
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
>> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
>> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me
>> if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
>> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for
>> heating the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew
>> temperature (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I
>> read). Since an ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would
>> seem to be essential for making a decent espresso, am I correct in
>> assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss quality,
>> which I won't) are going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX
>> machines in the 500-700 price range that CAN deliver a consistent brew
>> temperature? If not, how much would one reasonably expect to pay for a
>> pump driven machine that will brew at a consistent temperature? Thank
>> you.
>>
>
>
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 02:51:26
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
Thanks Brent, I had it ass-backward as usual. Combination of espresso & 20
YO scotch does that to my mind. Good thing there's always somebody paying
attention around here. ;)
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:4hgd40F1qrc77U1@individual.net...
>> Sorta, almost, correct there Alan,
>> In the $500 - $700 range you'll not find any HX machines with digital
>> temp controls. For that the tariff is more like $1200 and up, way up. But
>> HX machines DO use boilers to heat the water for extraction. The HX is
>> for steaming milk.
>
> The HX is for heating the brew water, it's in the boiler, which is for
> steaming milk
>
>
> Without a bunch of details the HX permits you to steam milk
>> while pulling shots. This is in place of a second dedicated boiler for
>> that purpose.
>>
>> In the price range you've indicated you're probably better off buying a
>> sub-$500 machine & either adding a PID yourself or paying someone approx.
>> $200 to do it for you. There are regular posters here that will happily
>> sell you a kit or the entire machine, PID & all.
>> --
>> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>
>> "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>>> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
>>> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
>>> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me
>>> if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price
>>> range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for
>>> heating the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew
>>> temperature (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I
>>> read). Since an ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would
>>> seem to be essential for making a decent espresso, am I correct in
>>> assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss
>>> quality, which I won't) are going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there
>>> any HX machines in the 500-700 price range that CAN deliver a consistent
>>> brew temperature? If not, how much would one reasonably expect to pay
>>> for a pump driven machine that will brew at a consistent temperature?
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
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Date: 11 Jul 2006 15:49:27
From: Brent
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
20 scotch's and an espresso will do that :)
Brent
> Thanks Brent, I had it ass-backward as usual. Combination of espresso & 20
> YO scotch does that to my mind. Good thing there's always somebody paying
> attention around here. ;)
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "Brent" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:4hgd40F1qrc77U1@individual.net...
>>> Sorta, almost, correct there Alan,
>>> In the $500 - $700 range you'll not find any HX machines with digital
>>> temp controls. For that the tariff is more like $1200 and up, way up.
>>> But HX machines DO use boilers to heat the water for extraction. The HX
>>> is for steaming milk.
>>
>> The HX is for heating the brew water, it's in the boiler, which is for
>> steaming milk
>>
>>
>> Without a bunch of details the HX permits you to steam milk
>>> while pulling shots. This is in place of a second dedicated boiler for
>>> that purpose.
>>>
>>> In the price range you've indicated you're probably better off buying a
>>> sub-$500 machine & either adding a PID yourself or paying someone
>>> approx. $200 to do it for you. There are regular posters here that will
>>> happily sell you a kit or the entire machine, PID & all.
>>> --
>>> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>>
>>> "Alan" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:jMBsg.129244$dW3.32450@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the
>>>> range of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the
>>>> impressions I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me
>>>> if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this
>>>> price range employ HX (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler
>>>> for heating the water, and the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew
>>>> temperature (varying as much as 40 degrees according to one website I
>>>> read). Since an ideal (and consistent) brew temperature is what would
>>>> seem to be essential for making a decent espresso, am I correct in
>>>> assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I settle for hit-or-miss
>>>> quality, which I won't) are going to need PID-retrofitting? Are there
>>>> any HX machines in the 500-700 price range that CAN deliver a
>>>> consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would one reasonably
>>>> expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a consistent
>>>> temperature? Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 08:13:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
TSK! If you like flushing and counting
-- and dragging a 50 lb. machine out from under the counter every other
day to replace all the water wasted.
Dave
Cordo wrote:
> If you read on home-barista.com (I think that's the URL) reviews of
> machines, you'll see that professional baristas can predict the temperature
> of HX water within amazing accuracy based on no more than flushing and
> counting!
>
>
>
> > the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much
> > as 40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an ideal (and
> > consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making
> > a decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless
> > I settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
> > PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
> > that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would
> > one reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
> > consistent temperature? Thank you.
> >
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 08:11:02
From: daveb
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
I've added pids to several customer HX machines - they have been
delighted.
HX MACHINES REALLY NEED this flexibility -- as it is difficult to
obtain consistent espresso shots from an HX machine. but BOY!!! are
they great for steaming..
And there are NO HX machines for $500 to 700 new! -- someone will
argue with this, I'm sure.
Get a nice single boiler NON HX machine -- with PID -- for under
$700.00
Dave
www.hitechespresso.com
Alan wrote:
> I've been contemplating getting a pump-driven espresso machine (in the range
> of $500-$700), but I've been a little dismayed at some of the impressions
> I've got from reading the postings here. Please correct me if I'm wrong,
> but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
> (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water, and
> the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much as
> 40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an ideal (and
> consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making a
> decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless I
> settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
> PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
> that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would one
> reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
> consistent temperature? Thank you.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 10:17:34
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
In article <1152630662.854789.314900@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com >,
"daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
> I've added pids to several customer HX machines - they have been
> delighted.
>
> HX MACHINES REALLY NEED this flexibility -- as it is difficult to
> obtain consistent espresso shots from an HX machine. but BOY!!! are
> they great for steaming..
>
> And there are NO HX machines for $500 to 700 new! -- someone will
> argue with this, I'm sure.
>
> Get a nice single boiler NON HX machine -- with PID -- for under
> $700.00
>
> Dave
> www.hitechespresso.com
Uh, what about this?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006SG69U/002-3013488-2944808?n=284507
Also Vaneli's has them for the same price.
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 11:32:32
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
The Amazon review hits the nail on the head (which is unusual for an Amazon
review - some of them are wildly off track).
With today's exchange rates, and given what a Silvia costs, $700 for a BZ02
is a bargain - it's a LOT more machine than a Silvia. It may not pull
better straight shots, but for overall "walk up" convenience, there's no
comparison - you can leave a BZ02 on 24/7 and have steam, brew and hot water
available at all hours and in any order without waiting. I've seen this
machine in small commercial applications (e.g. small Italian restaurants
where it's used to make after dinner espresso) and it is up to that task and
more than up to the task of home machine.
OTOH, because there is so much more "stuff" in a BZ vs. a Silvia , there's
also a lot more to break. At a minimum, I'd take steps to try to get some
of the boiler heat away from the "brain box" which otherwise has a tendency
to fry in these machines.
The quality and looks are not quite up to the level of the some of the
fancier E61 home machines, but neither is the price tag. And given that it
is within shootin' distance of a Silvia, it might be wise to dig a little
deeper into the wallet for this machine.
"Lloyd Parsons" <lloydparsons@mac.com > wrote in message
news:lloydparsons-8D56FA.10173411072006@individual.net...
> In article <1152630662.854789.314900@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've added pids to several customer HX machines - they have been
>> delighted.
>>
>> HX MACHINES REALLY NEED this flexibility -- as it is difficult to
>> obtain consistent espresso shots from an HX machine. but BOY!!! are
>> they great for steaming..
>>
>> And there are NO HX machines for $500 to 700 new! -- someone will
>> argue with this, I'm sure.
>>
>> Get a nice single boiler NON HX machine -- with PID -- for under
>> $700.00
>>
>> Dave
>> www.hitechespresso.com
>
> Uh, what about this?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006SG69U/002-3013488-2944808?n=284507
>
> Also Vaneli's has them for the same price.
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 13:33:37
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:u8qdnVWt3_4PWS7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@comcast.com...
> The Amazon review hits the nail on the head (which is unusual for an
> Amazon review - some of them are wildly off track).
Thanks for the compliment, as that's my review.
C. (also N.C.)
|
| | | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 16:52:00
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
I suspected it was an altie, as it sounded too knowledgeable for almost
anyone else.
"Cordo" <cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:e911up$kjq$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
>
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:u8qdnVWt3_4PWS7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> The Amazon review hits the nail on the head (which is unusual for an
>> Amazon review - some of them are wildly off track).
>
> Thanks for the compliment, as that's my review.
>
> C. (also N.C.)
>
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 14:16:38
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
I wrote a bunch of reviews on Amazon a couple of years ago on machines,
including the often read "So You'd Like to Make Espresso and Cappuccino at
Home" Guide, after reading dozens of 5 star reviews of steam toys.
The one that pushed me over to actually sit down and write some was when a
woman trashed a Gaggia in a review because of the "poor design" which made
it hot to the touch. Why could they use the plastic and thin metal
materials in her old Krups which never got hot to the touch?
C
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:wf2dnWPrd6TskinZnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>I suspected it was an altie, as it sounded too knowledgeable for almost
>anyone else.
>
>
> "Cordo" <cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:e911up$kjq$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
>>
>> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
>> news:u8qdnVWt3_4PWS7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> The Amazon review hits the nail on the head (which is unusual for an
>>> Amazon review - some of them are wildly off track).
>>
>> Thanks for the compliment, as that's my review.
>>
>> C. (also N.C.)
>>
>
>
|
| | | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 11:25:20
From: Lloyd Parsons
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
In article <u8qdnVWt3_4PWS7ZnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:
> The Amazon review hits the nail on the head (which is unusual for an Amazon
> review - some of them are wildly off track).
>
> With today's exchange rates, and given what a Silvia costs, $700 for a BZ02
> is a bargain - it's a LOT more machine than a Silvia. It may not pull
> better straight shots, but for overall "walk up" convenience, there's no
> comparison - you can leave a BZ02 on 24/7 and have steam, brew and hot water
> available at all hours and in any order without waiting. I've seen this
> machine in small commercial applications (e.g. small Italian restaurants
> where it's used to make after dinner espresso) and it is up to that task and
> more than up to the task of home machine.
>
> OTOH, because there is so much more "stuff" in a BZ vs. a Silvia , there's
> also a lot more to break. At a minimum, I'd take steps to try to get some
> of the boiler heat away from the "brain box" which otherwise has a tendency
> to fry in these machines.
>
> The quality and looks are not quite up to the level of the some of the
> fancier E61 home machines, but neither is the price tag. And given that it
> is within shootin' distance of a Silvia, it might be wise to dig a little
> deeper into the wallet for this machine.
I was one click away from ordering this, but at the time I couldn't find
any reviews. Coffeegeek was on the fritz and I was impatient.
But I'm perfectly happy with Miss Silvia and the repair record on
Silvias is pretty good from what I've read.
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 05:28:46
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
I think I want to agree with my more knowledgeable colleagues, even
when they don't quite agree with each other. I especially think that
there is a lot of wisdom in Ken's post about the significance of tiny
differences in temperature. Reliable double blind testing is darned
hard to do with espresso (read: impossible) and that probably is a good
thing. It doesn't really matter, anyway, because what we are after is
subjective enjoyment of the cup.
When I was a kid, my elders all said, "Learn to drive a stick shift
first, boy, and then you'll be able to handle anything." I doubt that
anyone much gives that advice to this generation of adolescents, most
of whom will never know the joys of a manual box on a winding open
road. In the same way, I'm not sure why people who can afford PID
machines should postpone buying them while they perfect their skills,
so long as they understand that the PID, alone, will not enable them to
make good coffee.
As others have pointed out, learning to make good espresso means
learning to juggle many variables in a highly dynamic environment.
Allowing the PID to manage one of those variables makes it easier
rather than harder, seems to me, to concentrate on skills.
Howsomever...the choice of buying a good grinder and no PID versus
buying a PID and a mediocre grinder is no choice at all. Go for the
grinder.
Will
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 00:14:19
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
> Please correct me if I'm wrong,
> but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
> (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water
Most pump driven espresso machines in that price range do not use HX's. The
vast majority in that price range are "cheap" superauto's, plus semi-autos
from Francis Francis, the Isomac Venus, and the Rancilio Silvia. Many cheap
superautos use thermoblocks and thus don't have boilers at all. The
semi-autos mentioned use a single "dual use" boiler -- a single boiler with
a thermostat which changes the temp of the water from brew water to steam
temp based on the flip of a switch, and the requisite wait time. The only
pump driven HX in that price range that I know of is the Pasquini Livia
close called the Bezerra.
If you only rarely need to steam, you could do worse than buy an Isomac
Zaffiro, which is a very fancy single boiler machine.
But don't be confused about temp stability. In my opinion, the Bezerra HX
mentioned will blow away the competition, including the dual boiler
"Kitchenaid Proline" (two Gaggia's put in one housing). The Kitchenaid has
separate boilers, but that doesn't mean perfect temp stability throughout a
shot.
If you read on home-barista.com (I think that's the URL) reviews of
machines, you'll see that professional baristas can predict the temperature
of HX water within amazing accuracy based on no more than flushing and
counting!
C
> the "HX" does not provide a consistent brew temperature (varying as much
> as 40 degrees according to one website I read). Since an ideal (and
> consistent) brew temperature is what would seem to be essential for making
> a decent espresso, am I correct in assuming that ALL "HX" machines (unless
> I settle for hit-or-miss quality, which I won't) are going to need
> PID-retrofitting? Are there any HX machines in the 500-700 price range
> that CAN deliver a consistent brew temperature? If not, how much would
> one reasonably expect to pay for a pump driven machine that will brew at a
> consistent temperature? Thank you.
>
|
| |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 15:08:33
From: CrackAddict
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
I own an Expobar Office Control and a Bezerra 99 - similar HX machines
in the $800 range new but available for less as demos, etc.
I prefer the Expobar as it has a better E-61 clone and thermosiphons,
whereas the Bezerra just bolts the grouphead onto the boiler and allows
convection to heat up the group. The Bezerra also has a "swing only"
steam wand and unlike the Expobar, it can't (AFAIK) be converted to a
cool-touch steam wand which should (IMHO) be STANDARD on all machines.
Both machines are well-built, the Bezerra being a squat monster with a
joke of a drip tray (I have managed to convert it to a sink drain) and
the Expobar a tall, skinny machine good in a small kitchen. Mine came
with a plumb-in kit and a drip tray with drain. Personally, I don't
mind filling a machine even once a day but it sure p*sses me off to
have to try and steer a 1/2" deep drip tray to the sink after every
other shot...
Neither machine has a brew pressure gauge so I use a PF gauge to dial
in the OPV. I don't see the need for a gauge on every shot - on many
machines that do have them they are impossible to read anyway.
The BZ99 seems to steam very forcefully, but the Expobar does what I
need. I have never felt the need to steam and draw shots
simultaneously, though. - SteveP
Lloyd Parsons wrote:
> In article <1152630662.854789.314900@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've added pids to several customer HX machines - they have been
> > delighted.
> >
> > HX MACHINES REALLY NEED this flexibility -- as it is difficult to
> > obtain consistent espresso shots from an HX machine. but BOY!!! are
> > they great for steaming..
> >
> > And there are NO HX machines for $500 to 700 new! -- someone will
> > argue with this, I'm sure.
> >
> > Get a nice single boiler NON HX machine -- with PID -- for under
> > $700.00
> >
> > Dave
> > www.hitechespresso.com
>
> Uh, what about this?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006SG69U/002-3013488-2944808?n=284507
>
> Also Vaneli's has them for the same price.
|
| | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 15:50:15
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
The office control normally costs about $200 more, which is why you get more
of those features.
But your post, besides its helpful points about drip trays, reminds me yet
again of how insane people are who order their Livia's for $1300 and above.
C
"CrackAddict" <smppix@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1152655713.369459.196480@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>I own an Expobar Office Control and a Bezerra 99 - similar HX machines
> in the $800 range new but available for less as demos, etc.
>
> I prefer the Expobar as it has a better E-61 clone and thermosiphons,
> whereas the Bezerra just bolts the grouphead onto the boiler and allows
> convection to heat up the group. The Bezerra also has a "swing only"
> steam wand and unlike the Expobar, it can't (AFAIK) be converted to a
> cool-touch steam wand which should (IMHO) be STANDARD on all machines.
>
> Both machines are well-built, the Bezerra being a squat monster with a
> joke of a drip tray (I have managed to convert it to a sink drain) and
> the Expobar a tall, skinny machine good in a small kitchen. Mine came
> with a plumb-in kit and a drip tray with drain. Personally, I don't
> mind filling a machine even once a day but it sure p*sses me off to
> have to try and steer a 1/2" deep drip tray to the sink after every
> other shot...
>
> Neither machine has a brew pressure gauge so I use a PF gauge to dial
> in the OPV. I don't see the need for a gauge on every shot - on many
> machines that do have them they are impossible to read anyway.
>
> The BZ99 seems to steam very forcefully, but the Expobar does what I
> need. I have never felt the need to steam and draw shots
> simultaneously, though. - SteveP
>
>
> Lloyd Parsons wrote:
>> In article <1152630662.854789.314900@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I've added pids to several customer HX machines - they have been
>> > delighted.
>> >
>> > HX MACHINES REALLY NEED this flexibility -- as it is difficult to
>> > obtain consistent espresso shots from an HX machine. but BOY!!! are
>> > they great for steaming..
>> >
>> > And there are NO HX machines for $500 to 700 new! -- someone will
>> > argue with this, I'm sure.
>> >
>> > Get a nice single boiler NON HX machine -- with PID -- for under
>> > $700.00
>> >
>> > Dave
>> > www.hitechespresso.com
>>
>> Uh, what about this?
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006SG69U/002-3013488-2944808?n=284507
>>
>> Also Vaneli's has them for the same price.
>
|
| | | |
Date: 11 Jul 2006 23:47:04
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:50:15 -0700, "Cordo"
<cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote:
>The office control normally costs about $200 more, which is why you get more
>of those features.
>
>But your post, besides its helpful points about drip trays, reminds me yet
>again of how insane people are who order their Livia's for $1300 and above.
>
>C
It could be a rational decision in Los Angeles, where it's a short
drive to service at Pasquini (just down the road from your future
digs).
Marshall
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 07:33:01
From: daveb
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
with a Livia -- a good idea to be close to service.
dave
Marshall wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:50:15 -0700, "Cordo"
> <cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >The office control normally costs about $200 more, which is why you get more
> >of those features.
> >
> >But your post, besides its helpful points about drip trays, reminds me yet
> >again of how insane people are who order their Livia's for $1300 and above.
> >
> >C
>
> It could be a rational decision in Los Angeles, where it's a short
> drive to service at Pasquini (just down the road from your future
> digs).
>
> Marshall
|
| |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 00:49:16
From: CrackAddict
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
> Please correct me if I'm wrong,
> but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
> (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water
And one other related comment on HX machines. As best I can tell, there
is no easy effective way to descale one. With the HX tubing running
inside the boiler, it becomes a struggle to somehow get a descaling
solution into where you need it and then cleaned out.
Now, add in that - according to the experts - "good" water for espresso
requires a hardness level which *will* scale a boiler, and it seems to
follow that there must be a heck of a market for descaling these
machines professionally.
After absorbing the ILWFAQ (by osmosis :-) I decided to use RO water in
my HX machines, mixed back with a soup=E7on of tap water to achieve a
boiler-safe (so inferior taste) hardness.
Anyone buying a heat exchanger machine would be advised to also at
least check their water supply hardness. - SteveP
|
| | |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 08:09:45
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
If you have very hard water, it's wise to get a softener or use RO water
with any type of machine. The problem in a HX is not so much the HX itself
as the lines leading to it - these lines are often quite restricted
intentionally (thru the use of a gicleur or jet - a orifice that limits the
rate of flow). Once that scales up you can lose all flow and it can be a
pain to remove.
It's actually easier to get the descaling solution into HX than the boiler -
just put the descaler in the reservoir & run the pump and the HX fills with
descaler. Various "tricks" are needed to replace the water in the steam
boiler w/descaler.
"CrackAddict" <smppix@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1152690556.791768.230050@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Please correct me if I'm wrong,
> but it seems to me that pump driven machines in this price range employ HX
> (heat exchanger?) rather than an actual boiler for heating the water
And one other related comment on HX machines. As best I can tell, there
is no easy effective way to descale one. With the HX tubing running
inside the boiler, it becomes a struggle to somehow get a descaling
solution into where you need it and then cleaned out.
Now, add in that - according to the experts - "good" water for espresso
requires a hardness level which *will* scale a boiler, and it seems to
follow that there must be a heck of a market for descaling these
machines professionally.
After absorbing the ILWFAQ (by osmosis :-) I decided to use RO water in
my HX machines, mixed back with a soupçon of tap water to achieve a
boiler-safe (so inferior taste) hardness.
Anyone buying a heat exchanger machine would be advised to also at
least check their water supply hardness. - SteveP
|
| | | |
Date: 12 Jul 2006 11:15:45
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
|
> After absorbing the ILWFAQ (by osmosis :-) I decided to use RO water in
> my HX machines, mixed back with a soupçon of tap water to achieve a
> boiler-safe (so inferior taste) hardness.
I'm not the expert on water hardness. despite how many times I've read the
Insanely Long Water FAQ and messed around with my own system, but my sense
has been that ideal mineral content is fairly low. If you have reasonably
high mineral content in your tap water (like I do in Vegas -- 19 grains),
then doing what you're doing (which is what I was doing for years before
getting the softener installed two months ago) is exactly the right thing,
and should produce the SUPERIOR taste hardness. I'm going to blow this, but
I think for espresso you want something like 5 grains, which would be fine
for "boiler safe" which an occasional citric acid descaling.
C
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Date: 12 Jul 2006 01:17:39
From: Cordo
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
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'And one other related comment on HX machines. As best I can tell, there
is no easy effective way to descale one. With the HX tubing running
inside the boiler, it becomes a struggle to somehow get a descaling
solution into where you need it and then cleaned out.'
I'm not an expert like others in this ng, but it seems to me that most of
the scale should be where you're constantly boiling and evaporating water,
so the minerals in it just keep collecting. That would be the boiler. In
the HX tube itself, you're just running brew water through it, not
evaporating it. I would expect a lot less scale, if any?
And I wouldn't think descaling an HX boiler would be any more complicated
than descaling any other boiler, as a consequence.
FWIW, I might suppose that HX boilers might be easier to descale than some
single boiler machines where the scale can easily communicate itself to the
pathways of the brew group: hence, common problems with leaking on some
Gaggia's where the pea valve is.
C
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Date: 13 Jul 2006 05:58:27
From: Paul Vojta
Subject: Re: do ALL "HX" machines need PID's?
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In article <e92b74$rug$1@news.Stanford.EDU >,
Cordo <cordoveroRemoveThis@RemoveThisyahoo.com > wrote:
>I'm not an expert like others in this ng, but it seems to me that most of
>the scale should be where you're constantly boiling and evaporating water,
>so the minerals in it just keep collecting. That would be the boiler. In
>the HX tube itself, you're just running brew water through it, not
>evaporating it. I would expect a lot less scale, if any?
No, scale occurs even when you're just heating water. For example, in
a domestic (tank-style) hot-water heater, it just heats the water to 150 F
or so, and yet scale buildup occurs. The reason is that scale (calcium
carbonate, if I remember correctly) is less soluble in hot water than in
cold.
The "boiler" is a bit of a misnomer, since you don't actually boil water
in it. It does get hotter than 212 degrees F, but due to pressure very
little actual boiling occurs. It's not like in a (steam-based) home or
building heating system, where water is boiled in order to circulate
steam to radiators in the various rooms.
--Paul Vojta, vojta@math.berkeley.edu
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