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Date: 02 Oct 2006 21:45:19
From: Natalie Drest
Subject: double shot good, single shot bad??
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For the life of me, I can't seem to get consistency between the double and
single filter baskets of my Gaggia Evolution. I can get a great shot with
the double, but if I use the same grind with the single, it stalls, or is so
slow as to be undrinkable. I'm doing everything else the same, so far as I
can tell. My machine has good pressure, I let it heat up properly including
the portafilter.
Is this a common experience?
--
"I won't go into binary counting here. For further information you can
search the Internet, or cut off all but one of your fingers."
-Roger Nichols
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 16:16:19
From: Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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In article <4520fbca@dnews.tpgi.com.au >,
fugeddaboudit@notarealemailaddress.net says...
> For the life of me, I can't seem to get consistency between the double and
> single filter baskets of my Gaggia Evolution. I can get a great shot with
> the double, but if I use the same grind with the single, it stalls, or is so
> slow as to be undrinkable. I'm doing everything else the same, so far as I
> can tell. My machine has good pressure, I let it heat up properly including
> the portafilter.
> Is this a common experience?
>
It isn't easy getting good, consistent single shots. I make more
singles than doubles -- the largish single that came with my Wega Lyra
(uses 12 g of coffee) is just right for a small cappa. Some of the
problem is related to the inverted sombrero shape of the basket, which
makes it vulnerable to dosing and filling/tamping unevenness. In
addition, getting the right dose in a single is much more difficult than
with a double basket. Simply striking off the excess leaves too much
coffee in the basket.
I use a flat-bottomed coffee scoop to sweep away the excess. I have
thought of making a precision tool that makes the process I use with the
scoop much more consistent. This tool would have a disk ~ 1.5" in
diameter and 3/16" thick bolted to a "handle" -- a metal plate 1/2" x
1/16" x 7". To use it, I would fill the basket, level the coffee, and
then clear out the unneeded coffee with the tool. To do this, I would
place the disk inside the filled PF with the handle flat against the top
of the basket. Then, rotate the disk around the outer edge of the
basket. This is exactly what I do with my flat-bottomed coffee scoop.
It clears excess coffee from the basket and levels the top surface of
the coffee. Tamp and it's ready to go. If the disk is mounted to the
handle with an adjustable bolt, you can fine-tune the depth of the puck
to fit any size of single basket.
I'm getting great consistency this way -- ignoring the inevitable duds
caused by re-tuning the grinder between roasts, I'm getting over 90%
very good singles with this method.
Rick
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 07:41:08
From: John Frank
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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At Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica they use the double portafilter to pour
both doubles and singles. In the event that only a single has been
ordered the second shot is poured into a shotglass that gets monitored
(another ongoing way in which they keep their quality optimized) and
later tossed.
Because of this practice I always order doubles--I can't bear to see
great espresso go to waste, and it's a great excuse to have a little
more coffee!
Natalie Drest wrote:
> Thanks for responding Harry.
> So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use either a
> single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time, without
> changing the grind? And still get a good shot? What are they doing/using
> that's different to us home users?
>
>
>
> "Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net> wrote in message
> news:QuednQNLMJXwn7zYnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> > Yes, quite common. I have never used the single baskets on my last two
> > machines [Gaggia Coffee and new Silvia]. Never could get a good single
> with
> > the Krups Novo Compact I used before that. Have read similar experiences
> > from many others.
> >
> > "Natalie Drest" <fugeddaboudit@notarealemailaddress.net> wrote in message
> > news:4520fbca@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> > > For the life of me, I can't seem to get consistency between the double
> and
> > > single filter baskets of my Gaggia Evolution. I can get a great shot
> with
> > > the double, but if I use the same grind with the single, it stalls, or
> is
> > > so slow as to be undrinkable. I'm doing everything else the same, so far
> > > as I can tell. My machine has good pressure, I let it heat up properly
> > > including the portafilter.
> > > Is this a common experience?
> >
> >
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 09:51:12
From: notbob
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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On 2006-10-02, John Frank <johndfrank@excite.com > wrote:
> Because of this practice I always order doubles--I can't bear to see
> great espresso go to waste, and it's a great excuse to have a little
> more coffee!
No kidding. A double is little enough of a good thing. I can't
imagine settling for less.
nb
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 20:20:39
From: Mike Hartigan
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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In article <1159800068.559915.130150@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com >,
johndfrank@excite.com says...
> At Caffe Luxxe in Santa Monica they use the double portafilter to pour
> both doubles and singles. In the event that only a single has been
> ordered the second shot is poured into a shotglass that gets monitored
> (another ongoing way in which they keep their quality optimized) and
> later tossed.
>
> Because of this practice I always order doubles--I can't bear to see
> great espresso go to waste, and it's a great excuse to have a little
> more coffee!
When I order a Mocha at my local Barnes & Noble ("We proudly serve
Starbucks Coffee") I usually order a triple. Then, when the barista
has drawn the requisite two doubles, I ask if he/she could just put
the 'extra' shot in my drink rather than throw it out. They've never
said no.
--
-Mike
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 07:13:32
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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Yes, quite common. I have never used the single baskets on my last two
machines [Gaggia Coffee and new Silvia]. Never could get a good single with
the Krups Novo Compact I used before that. Have read similar experiences
from many others.
"Natalie Drest" <fugeddaboudit@notarealemailaddress.net > wrote in message
news:4520fbca@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> For the life of me, I can't seem to get consistency between the double and
> single filter baskets of my Gaggia Evolution. I can get a great shot with
> the double, but if I use the same grind with the single, it stalls, or is
> so slow as to be undrinkable. I'm doing everything else the same, so far
> as I can tell. My machine has good pressure, I let it heat up properly
> including the portafilter.
> Is this a common experience?
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 22:18:43
From: Natalie Drest
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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Thanks for responding Harry.
So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use either a
single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time, without
changing the grind? And still get a good shot? What are they doing/using
that's different to us home users?
"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:QuednQNLMJXwn7zYnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> Yes, quite common. I have never used the single baskets on my last two
> machines [Gaggia Coffee and new Silvia]. Never could get a good single
with
> the Krups Novo Compact I used before that. Have read similar experiences
> from many others.
>
> "Natalie Drest" <fugeddaboudit@notarealemailaddress.net> wrote in message
> news:4520fbca@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> > For the life of me, I can't seem to get consistency between the double
and
> > single filter baskets of my Gaggia Evolution. I can get a great shot
with
> > the double, but if I use the same grind with the single, it stalls, or
is
> > so slow as to be undrinkable. I'm doing everything else the same, so far
> > as I can tell. My machine has good pressure, I let it heat up properly
> > including the portafilter.
> > Is this a common experience?
>
>
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 17:06:14
From: Danny
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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Natalie Drest wrote:
> Thanks for responding Harry.
> So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use either a
> single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time, without
> changing the grind? And still get a good shot? What are they doing/using
> that's different to us home users?
>
We only use the double basket, and only serve doubles anyway,
ristretto if they want a shorter drink. On most home machines, the
single is a pain - you need to really keep an eye on your tamp etc as
the basket is usually much shallower.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
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Date: 03 Oct 2006 10:56:11
From: Natalie Drest
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:4ocrmrFdeelfU1@individual.net...
> Natalie Drest wrote:
>> Thanks for responding Harry.
>> So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use
>> either a
>> single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time,
>> without
>> changing the grind? And still get a good shot? What are they doing/using
>> that's different to us home users?
>>
>
> We only use the double basket, and only serve doubles anyway, ristretto if
> they want a shorter drink.
What if the don't want the taste of a ristretto, but genuinely want a single
shot? I thought they should taste different. I guess they could drink only
half of the double...
>On most home machines, the single is a pain - you need to really keep an
>eye on your tamp etc as the basket is usually much shallower.
This is what I'm trying to understand. My gaggia has a commercial PF and- so
I'm told- commercial filter baskets. So why is the output so different? I
would have thought that the restriction of the fewer holes in a single
basket would be calibrated to suit the lesser amount of coffee, so flow
rates would be the same as a double. But it doesn't seem to work that way.
Why not?
--
"I won't go into binary counting here. For further information you can
search the Internet, or cut off all but one of your fingers."
-Roger Nichols
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Date: 03 Oct 2006 15:45:42
From: Brent
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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Another way of looking at it is to simplify it:
single = 7 grams
double = 14 grams
If you pull a good double you are using lets say 14 grams +/-1 gram so 13
will be slightly shorter, 15 perhaps slightly longer to pull a shot. The
difference we will say is minor - as a % as much as ~7% in either direction.
Now to the single - same scenario 7 grams +/- 1 gram - % is 14% in either
direction.
I am certain I have badly used stats
The simple point being the variance in a double is considerably less than
the same variance in a single. Get good at pulling a double, and then try
the single, I am sure you will then find it easier.
Of course, what is the point in a single when a mighty fine double is easier
in any case?
With respect to the holes - my understanding is that the holes in both sized
baskets are such that the 1 oz / 30 second or 2 oz / 30 second can be
achieved with the same grind, so a few less holes in the single, a few more
in the double.. (Has anyone managed a bottomless basket to go with their
bottomless PF???)
Brent
>> Natalie Drest wrote:
>>> Thanks for responding Harry.
>>> So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use
>>> either a
>>> single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time,
>>> without
>>> changing the grind? And still get a good shot? What are they doing/using
>>> that's different to us home users?
>>>
>>
>> We only use the double basket, and only serve doubles anyway, ristretto
>> if they want a shorter drink.
>
> What if the don't want the taste of a ristretto, but genuinely want a
> single shot? I thought they should taste different. I guess they could
> drink only half of the double...
>
>>On most home machines, the single is a pain - you need to really keep an
>>eye on your tamp etc as the basket is usually much shallower.
>
> This is what I'm trying to understand. My gaggia has a commercial PF and-
> so I'm told- commercial filter baskets. So why is the output so different?
> I would have thought that the restriction of the fewer holes in a single
> basket would be calibrated to suit the lesser amount of coffee, so flow
> rates would be the same as a double. But it doesn't seem to work that way.
> Why not?
>
>
>
> --
> "I won't go into binary counting here. For further information you can
> search the Internet, or cut off all but one of your fingers."
> -Roger Nichols
>
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Date: 03 Oct 2006 06:46:10
From: Danny
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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Natalie Drest wrote:
> What if the don't want the taste of a ristretto, but genuinely want a single
> shot? I thought they should taste different. I guess they could drink only
> half of the double...
The menu says double. Virtually anyone who wants a shorter shot is
foreign (Italian, Spanish etc) and usually wants a ristretto. If
someone actually wanted a single, I'd do as already suggested - pour
two singles from the double spout and give the best one to the customer.
> This is what I'm trying to understand. My gaggia has a commercial PF and- so
> I'm told- commercial filter baskets. So why is the output so different? I
> would have thought that the restriction of the fewer holes in a single
> basket would be calibrated to suit the lesser amount of coffee, so flow
> rates would be the same as a double. But it doesn't seem to work that way.
> Why not?
As I said - Tamp and pack etc are more important in a shallow single
basket. The point made about quantity of coffee used and the greater
possible variance as a percentage of a single shot is a good point too.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 14:50:10
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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On Mon, 2 2006 22:18:43 +1000, "Natalie Drest"
<mccoey06HAT@tpgCOAT.com.au > wrote:
>Thanks for responding Harry.
>So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use either a
>single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time, without
>changing the grind?
No. In the U.S. they rarely use singles. They get more consistent
output (and save steps) by pouring a double into two cups and either
tossing one out or using it for the next customer.
Marshall
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 07:36:43
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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They are using commercial machines, not home machines. There is a world of
difference. Heat, temperature stability, etc.
"Natalie Drest" <mccoey06HAT@tpgCOAT.com.au > wrote in message
news:4521039a@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Thanks for responding Harry.
> So how is it that in coffee bars- & I'm talking good ones- they use either
> a
> single or double portafilter according to what's needed at the time,
> without
> changing the grind? And still get a good shot? What are they doing/using
> that's different to us home users?
>
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 20:11:27
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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On Mon, 2 2006 21:45:19 +1000, "Natalie Drest"
<fugeddaboudit@notarealemailaddress.net > wrote:
>For the life of me, I can't seem to get consistency between the double and
>single filter baskets of my Gaggia Evolution
Technically, single and double baskets should be able to use the same
grind. But this requires very exact dosing and tamping, in other
words, lots and lots of practice with both baskets.
Most of the Italians bars I visited basically cheated by going
ultra-ristretto on both doubles and singles -- if the coffee is
dripping out, who can tell if the grind/dose is perfect? Most of the
ones that didn't do this weren't too brilliant on the doubles.
There's also diffences in baskets.
-- I don't know the Gaggia baskets.
-- I spent an amusing half day with the Silvia single basket trying to
get a shot that didn't channel using three different machines (I gave
up on one that tastes good after the first hour). No luck; it is
definitely the worst single basket by far I've ever used. I keep it to
remind me I'm not yet super-barista
-- The Faema style large single basket is a delight, one can vary dose
and grind, use it on any machine, and it's always well behaved.
-- The LM single is more troublesome, since it requires a smaller
tamper size for the center section. Once one has that rigged; it's
also a delight; perhaps even better tasting than the Faema.
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Date: 02 Oct 2006 14:46:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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throw out the single shot basket!
easy! cheap!
Dave
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Date: 03 Oct 2006 06:11:10
From: Leo95se
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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has anyone tried to use their double baskets and only fill it halfway
or so?
i love singles, and my giotto P has no problems pumping them out all
day, so i cant comment on the silvia, but maybe trying this would help?
only downside i see is too much water sitting on the puck, but if you
pull ristrettos for time and not grind, maybe it wont be affected.
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Date: 04 Oct 2006 09:17:55
From: Brent
Subject: Re: double shot good, single shot bad??
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It will result in a fast pour...
the holes in the bottom of the basket are a aprt of the resistance to slow
down the pour - lots in a double, not as many lots in a single.
But hey, try it and see if you like it!
Brent
> has anyone tried to use their double baskets and only fill it halfway
> or so?
> i love singles, and my giotto P has no problems pumping them out all
> day, so i cant comment on the silvia, but maybe trying this would help?
> only downside i see is too much water sitting on the puck, but if you
> pull ristrettos for time and not grind, maybe it wont be affected.
>
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