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Main
Date: 06 Sep 2006 06:08:42
From: Sammus
Subject: silvia steam PID
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Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it set
to hold a steaming temp. To do this I would use it to drive the same
SSR as the brew PID is, but with one of the wires going via the steam
switch, so it can't acutally do anything unless steam switch is on now
I see 2 possible problems with this:
1) When the steam controller trying to drive the SSR while the brew
controller is not, this external V across the SSR outputs of the brew
controller may cause problems. Is this likely?
If so, would putting a diode in the SSR control wires of both
controllers prevent this from happening?
2) When the steam switch is on the V across the switch (where the SSR
drive from the steam controller is hooked up) may cause problems.
Looking at the wiring diagram I notice the protection t/stat is hook up
to one pole of the steam switch, with nothing on the other side - I
don't see the point of having it hook up to that pole of the switch at
all - so my solution is to disconnect that lead and have those poles
dedicated to the SSR drive circuit.
Now obviously I'm not very familiar/good with electronics, so I'm
hoping you can tell me why this won't work and suggest some way of
hooking it up so it will work (preferable without the use of a second
SSR)
Which brings me to my second point. Is it possible I could use the one
Thermocouple to send a signal to both controllers - I was told a while
ago that this could potentially kill one of my controllers, howso? 2nd
of all, if I replace the TC with an Pt100 RTD, would it be possible
hook it up to both PIDs and still have the proper resistance values?
Thanks for anyhelp!!
Sammus
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 06:29:43
From: Sammus
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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Oh I agree that it's nearly pointless - It's more to do with my
obsession of meddeling with stuff, coupled with having a PID that I
have no other use for - and the fact that I don't like being a few
seconds too late in steaming only to see the steam t/stat click the
boiler off just as I start steaming...
Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
> Sammus wrote:
> > Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it set
> > to hold a steaming temp.
>
> I see nothing to be gained by this but perhaps I'm overlooking
> something obvious.
>
> Will
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 11:25:30
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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"Sammus" <Sammus187@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157549382.809982.190980@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Oh I agree that it's nearly pointless - It's more to do with my
> obsession of meddeling with stuff, coupled with having a PID that I
> have no other use for - and the fact that I don't like being a few
> seconds too late in steaming only to see the steam t/stat click the
> boiler off just as I start steaming...
>
> Omniryx@gmail.com wrote:
>> Sammus wrote:
>> > Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it
>> > set
>> > to hold a steaming temp.
>>
>> I see nothing to be gained by this but perhaps I'm overlooking
>> something obvious.
>>
>> Will
>
Hi Sammus, a simpler & better method I think is to use a 2 line display
to monitor the boiler temp during the steam mode & then you open up the
steam valve before the steam stat cycles off, a degree or two before the
stat clicks off & before the light goes off., to keep the heating
element on during the steaming & applying maximum power during the
steaming phase.
Silvia's steam stat is a 140°C one so that's 284F, open the steam valve
anytime just before this temp. I have a 150C (302F) steam stat
installed, so I open up the steam valve at around 300 & have steam
engine VOLUMINOUS steaming power, LOL! {:-D
Cheers!
Craig.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 06:22:40
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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Sammus wrote:
> Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it set
> to hold a steaming temp.
I see nothing to be gained by this but perhaps I'm overlooking
something obvious.
Will
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 16:36:19
From: Sammus
Subject: Re: steve steam
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dave yes we will miss steve - I think most people probably will he was
a pretty unique character
and to the others cheers for clearing up my misconceptions, if it ever
done I'll have more of a chance of not killing miss silvia :)
And as far as dual setpoint controllers go, I was looking for one for a
long time but ended up scoring a fuji pxr from ebay without this
capability for under $100AU - better than the $400AU Fuji Australia
were asking for a newbie...
And Craig: I already use this method now - thats what annoyed me when
I'd open up too late. My silvia also has a 302F Tstat in it, came like
that stock standard...lots of steam yes :P still couldn't imagine doing
more than 2 cups worth though - painfully slow - especially when I'm
late opening and dont have the element pushing it along!
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 00:53:12
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: steve steam
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"Sammus" <Sammus187@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157585779.177564.40330@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> dave yes we will miss steve - I think most people probably will he was
> a pretty unique character
>
> and to the others cheers for clearing up my misconceptions, if it ever
> done I'll have more of a chance of not killing miss silvia :)
>
> And as far as dual setpoint controllers go, I was looking for one for
> a
> long time but ended up scoring a fuji pxr from ebay without this
> capability for under $100AU - better than the $400AU Fuji Australia
> were asking for a newbie...
>
> And Craig: I already use this method now - thats what annoyed me when
> I'd open up too late. My silvia also has a 302F Tstat in it, came like
> that stock standard...lots of steam yes :P still couldn't imagine
> doing
> more than 2 cups worth though - painfully slow - especially when I'm
> late opening and dont have the element pushing it along!
>
I've never heard of a Silvia having anything other than a stock 140°C
steam thermostat Sammus, you're saying yours came with a 150°C one
stock??
Cheers!
Craig.
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 16:26:56
From: daveb
Subject: Re: steve steam
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Another slug of B.S. from "steve".
have you got anything USEFUL, "steve"?? anything at all?
Dave
110
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 16:24:28
From: daveb
Subject: Re: sly silvia steam PID
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Oh, aren't we sly, mr. galt?
who d'ya think is peddling one?
hmmm?
Dave
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 15:05:46
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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Sammus wrote:
> Oh I agree that it's nearly pointless - It's more to do with my
> obsession of meddeling with stuff, coupled with having a PID that I
> have no other use for - and the fact that I don't like being a few
> seconds too late in steaming only to see the steam t/stat click the
> boiler off just as I start steaming...
>
Sammus -
I suspect you already know this, but this is a really simple task using
a single PID with dual setpoint capability. [end of good, but
unresponsive, advice].
To do this with 2 single setpoint PID's, I think I would use a SPDT
relay with a nnnVAC (nnn = your mains voltage) coil. Idec RH1B-UACnnnV
should work (RH2B-UACnnnV should also work and will probably be easier
to buy).
Use Silvia's steam switch to control the relay coil. Connect the "hot"
power wire for your primary (brew) PID to the normally closed contacts
on the relay. Similarly, connect your secondary (steam) PID to the
normally open contacts. Run a "hot" side wire from Silvia's main
switch to the common contact on the relay. The neutral power wires to
both PID's should be uninterrupted (again, coming from the main
switch).
Wire the DC output wiring for both PID's to the same SSR.
When you flip the steam switch, the relay should kill the power to the
brew PID and power up the steam PID. When you turn the switch off,
power should revert back to the brew PID.
Don't try and feed both PID controllers from the same t/c. Use a
second t/c. You will also need to run a short jumper across the steam
thermostat. Otherwise it will open when it thinks it is hot enough and
defeat all of your hard work.
BTW, if you look around some, I'll bet you will find a really nice PID
kit using a Watlow series 96 controller that already does this (the
easy way), with a good installation guide to boot ;-}
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 15:49:42
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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jggall01 wrote:
>
> BTW, if you look around some, I'll bet you will find a really nice PID
> kit using a Watlow series 96 controller that already does this (the
> easy way), with a good installation guide to boot ;-}
Could said PID flip between the set points when the user
flipped the steam switch ?
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 20:49:59
From: Ian Smith
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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On 6 Sep 2006 06:08:42 -0700, Sammus <Sammus187@gmail.com > wrote:
> Which brings me to my second point. Is it possible I could use the one
> Thermocouple to send a signal to both controllers - I was told a while
> ago that this could potentially kill one of my controllers, howso?
I wouldn't do it. The PIDs must have a switch mode power supply in
there, and their 0V will probably be different to each other. You'll
probably short one through the other.
You might get away with it, because the common SSR -ve might drag the
two to a common voltage. Or that might fry them even before the
thermocouple fries them.
> of all, if I replace the TC with an Pt100 RTD, would it be possible
> hook it up to both PIDs and still have the proper resistance values?
I very much doubt it. If you don't fry something (see above), you're
putting two small currents through a resistor and expecting the
voltage to be the same as if you put just one of them through the same
resistor.
But don't let the nay-sayers stand in the way of progress - if it
works, be sure to report back.
regards, Ian SMith
--
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 11:56:00
From: daveb
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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don't do it.
tight control of steam temp is a waste of time, Sam. you are
overthinking it.
BTW, you aussies gonna miss the crocodile guy??
dave
Sammus wrote:
> Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it set
> to hold a steaming temp. To do this I would use it to drive the same
> SSR as the brew PID is, but with one of the wires going via the steam
> switch, so it can't acutally do anything unless steam switch is on now
> I see 2 possible problems with this:
> 1) When the steam controller trying to drive the SSR while the brew
> controller is not, this external V across the SSR outputs of the brew
> controller may cause problems. Is this likely?
>
> If so, would putting a diode in the SSR control wires of both
> controllers prevent this from happening?
>
> 2) When the steam switch is on the V across the switch (where the SSR
> drive from the steam controller is hooked up) may cause problems.
> Looking at the wiring diagram I notice the protection t/stat is hook up
> to one pole of the steam switch, with nothing on the other side - I
> don't see the point of having it hook up to that pole of the switch at
> all - so my solution is to disconnect that lead and have those poles
> dedicated to the SSR drive circuit.
>
> Now obviously I'm not very familiar/good with electronics, so I'm
> hoping you can tell me why this won't work and suggest some way of
> hooking it up so it will work (preferable without the use of a second
> SSR)
>
> Which brings me to my second point. Is it possible I could use the one
> Thermocouple to send a signal to both controllers - I was told a while
> ago that this could potentially kill one of my controllers, howso? 2nd
> of all, if I replace the TC with an Pt100 RTD, would it be possible
> hook it up to both PIDs and still have the proper resistance values?
>
> Thanks for anyhelp!!
>
> Sammus
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Date: 06 Sep 2006 19:44:00
From: Steve
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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On 6 Sep 2006 11:56:00 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:
>you are
>overthinking it.
I'll take "something Dave will never be accused of for $200, Alex"
>
>BTW, you aussies gonna miss the crocodile guy??
Proof of concept.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 09:49:43
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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Mud Pup wrote:
>
> Thanks for the quick reply. I'm confused why you need the relay
> at all. Can't you just connect the switch to the PID's inputs
> directly ? Is it to isolate the lamp and AC feeding it ?
> If so, one could just disconnect that part...
Right. The relay is only needed to preserve the function of the
indicator lamp on the steam switch. If you don't care about the switch
lamp, then skip the relay, unhook all the 110V from the steam switch,
and use the steam switch directly as the "event" generator.
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:14:00
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
jggall01 wrote:
>
> Right. The relay is only needed to preserve the function of the
> indicator lamp on the steam switch. If you don't care about the switch
> lamp, then skip the relay, unhook all the 110V from the steam switch,
> and use the steam switch directly as the "event" generator.
Ok, last question, promise: Why does the 935A need an external
power supply to do the steam operation ?
Thanks again
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 09:17:26
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
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Mud Pup wrote:
> Could said PID flip between the set points when the user
> flipped the steam switch ?
Yes. Flipping the steam switch energizes the 110V (or 220V) coil on a
small relay, which in turn closes the relay contacts. The Watlow 96
(and others) can be purchased with an event input option. It is
programmed to go to an "event setpoint" (in this case around 300F) when
it senses the contact closure. Goes back to normal setpoint when steam
switch is turned off and relay contacts open again. Adds minimal cost
(relay + wiring), but about an extra hour of installation time.
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 16:40:55
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
jggall01 wrote:
>
> Yes. Flipping the steam switch energizes the 110V (or 220V) coil on a
> small relay, which in turn closes the relay contacts. The Watlow 96
> (and others) can be purchased with an event input option. It is
> programmed to go to an "event setpoint" (in this case around 300F) when
> it senses the contact closure. Goes back to normal setpoint when steam
> switch is turned off and relay contacts open again. Adds minimal cost
> (relay + wiring), but about an extra hour of installation time.
Thanks for the quick reply. I'm confused why you need the relay
at all. Can't you just connect the switch to the PID's inputs
directly ? Is it to isolate the lamp and AC feeding it ?
If so, one could just disconnect that part...
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 06:41:32
From: daveb
Subject: Re: sly silvia ad
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Oh, but why be so COY about it?
hmm.
Cheaper? have you seen mine for half that?
Quality? - my installs exceed anything a kitbuilder could do. and I
don't use leaky, home-made, HALF plastic enclosures.
My reputation? 6.5 years on ebay -- way over 1,000 happy people.
exceed that!
and lastly -- why reversible? who in hell would do that? (just 'cuz
murph did it that way? Lame in the extreme)
AC protocol patrol folks may not like my approach here, but that is
just too bad, W.
You asked -- I answered
Dave --- www.hitechespresso.com
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 19:02:05
From: Danny
Subject: Re: sly silvia ad
|
daveb wrote:
> Oh, but why be so COY about it?
>
> hmm.
>
> Cheaper? have you seen mine for half that?
>
> Quality? - my installs exceed anything a kitbuilder could do. and I
> don't use leaky, home-made, HALF plastic enclosures.
>
> My reputation? 6.5 years on ebay -- way over 1,000 happy people.
> exceed that!
>
> and lastly -- why reversible? who in hell would do that? (just 'cuz
> murph did it that way? Lame in the extreme)
>
> AC protocol patrol folks may not like my approach here, but that is
> just too bad, W.
>
> You asked -- I answered
>
> Dave --- www.hitechespresso.com
>
Dave, when are you going to learn some basic marketing rules. Never
diss your competitors for one. Be proud of what you do and
acknowledge what they do. They don't do a bad job, and I assume that
you don't believe you do a bad job, so why the ill feelings, along
with your perennial diary of succesful PID installs.
--
Regards, Danny
http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 15:32:42
From: DoublEE
Subject: Re: sly silvia ad
|
On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 19:02:05 +0100, Danny
<danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
>daveb wrote:
>> Oh, but why be so COY about it?
>>
>> hmm.
>>
>> Cheaper? have you seen mine for half that?
>>
>> Quality? - my installs exceed anything a kitbuilder could do. and I
>> don't use leaky, home-made, HALF plastic enclosures.
>>
>> My reputation? 6.5 years on ebay -- way over 1,000 happy people.
>> exceed that!
>>
>> and lastly -- why reversible? who in hell would do that? (just 'cuz
>> murph did it that way? Lame in the extreme)
>>
>> AC protocol patrol folks may not like my approach here, but that is
>> just too bad, W.
>>
>> You asked -- I answered
>>
>> Dave --- www.hitechespresso.com
>>
>
>Dave, when are you going to learn some basic marketing rules.
Here's when:
http://sanbra.kaywa.ch/files/images/2006/5/mob398_1147343947.jpg
>Never diss your competitors for one. Be proud of what you do and
>acknowledge what they do. They don't do a bad job, and I assume that
>you don't believe you do a bad job, so why the ill feelings, along
>with your perennial diary of succesful PID installs.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 04:52:23
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: sly silvia steam PID
|
Considering that it is cheaper than yours, superb quality, totally
reversible, sold by a man who has an impeccable reputation, and can be
installed in about the time it takes to read your daily email, Dave,
why shouldn't he? You've certainly set him the example.
daveb wrote:
> Oh, aren't we sly, mr. galt?
>
> who d'ya think is peddling one?
>
> hmmm?
>
> Dave
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 15:27:46
From: DoublEE
Subject: Re: sly silvia steam PID
|
On 7 Sep 2006 04:52:23 -0700, "Omniryx@gmail.com" <Omniryx@gmail.com >
wrote:
>Considering that it is cheaper than yours, superb quality, totally
>reversible, sold by a man who has an impeccable reputation, and can be
>installed in about the time it takes to read your daily email, Dave,
>why shouldn't he? You've certainly set him the example.
Ouch! Well done.
>daveb wrote:
>> Oh, aren't we sly, mr. galt?
>>
>> who d'ya think is peddling one?
>>
>> hmmm?
>>
>> Dave
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 01:17:17
From: Sammus
Subject: Re: steve steam
|
Yeah I guess, I haven't pulled it apart to confirm its inner workings
or asking rancilio or searched for part numbers, but I have a Fuji PXR3
PID controller (only displays F, can't change it without the computer
hookop option! - I can't figure out how anyway) and the steam tstat
clicks and turns off boiler just after 300, I usually try and time it
so I turn on the steam knob at 297ish then it peaks at 300 and starts
to drop - sometimes I'm too late and it clicks off just over 300 - im
guessing 302 if that is the standard value :P
Craig Andrews wrote:
> "Sammus" <Sammus187@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1157585779.177564.40330@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > dave yes we will miss steve - I think most people probably will he was
> > a pretty unique character
> >
> > and to the others cheers for clearing up my misconceptions, if it ever
> > done I'll have more of a chance of not killing miss silvia :)
> >
> > And as far as dual setpoint controllers go, I was looking for one for
> > a
> > long time but ended up scoring a fuji pxr from ebay without this
> > capability for under $100AU - better than the $400AU Fuji Australia
> > were asking for a newbie...
> >
> > And Craig: I already use this method now - thats what annoyed me when
> > I'd open up too late. My silvia also has a 302F Tstat in it, came like
> > that stock standard...lots of steam yes :P still couldn't imagine
> > doing
> > more than 2 cups worth though - painfully slow - especially when I'm
> > late opening and dont have the element pushing it along!
> >
>
>
> I've never heard of a Silvia having anything other than a stock 140=B0C
> steam thermostat Sammus, you're saying yours came with a 150=B0C one
> stock??
> Cheers!
> Craig.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 11:38:25
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: steve steam
|
"Sammus" <Sammus187@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1157617037.100889.294490@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Yeah I guess, I haven't pulled it apart to confirm its inner workings
or asking rancilio or searched for part numbers, but I have a Fuji PXR3
PID controller (only displays F, can't change it without the computer
hookop option! - I can't figure out how anyway) and the steam tstat
clicks and turns off boiler just after 300, I usually try and time it
so I turn on the steam knob at 297ish then it peaks at 300 and starts
to drop - sometimes I'm too late and it clicks off just over 300 - im
guessing 302 if that is the standard value :P
Well, a stock Silvia has ALWAYS had a 140C steam stat, no higher. What
you're getting is the overshoot/tolerance on the stat when it clicks
off. A stock 140C s stat is 284F..
Craig.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 20:06:57
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
jim schulman wrote:
> The solution of course is not a PID (controls are about throttling
> something that has too much power), but rather a switch that forces
> the heat on (with the safety stat still in line) whenever one turns on
> the steam. This should cost all of $10 in materials, although it may
> require a bit of ingenuity to mount the actuating cam on the steam
> shaft.
Actually, I think you can accomplish this by simply running a 2" jumper
wire across the steam thermostat. Then the stock steam switch does
exactly what you describe.
However, I would only recommend that to someone who has never forgotten
to turn off the lights or put the toilet seat back down.
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 22:58:00
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On 7 Sep 2006 20:06:57 -0700, "jggall01" <jggall01@yahoo.com > wrote:
>Actually, I think you can accomplish this by simply running a 2" jumper
>wire across the steam thermostat. Then the stock steam switch does
>exactly what you describe.
I was thinking the steam knob, not the switch; even with the safety
stat still in line, that's a bit on the living dangerously side.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 07:19:30
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
800 watts? I'll see your 800 watts and raise you another 300 watts <G >. No
one in the 230v world has ever called the steam performance "wimpy".
--
Alan
alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 19:34:14
From:
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
I'm sorry I have to disagree with Marshall, but having some experience
in the matter, thought I'd chime in briefly...
The Silvia's steam power is, in my opinion, adequate but not plentiful.
It is more adequate when you hit the steam before the tstat turns off
- which is easy to do if you are concentrating on how much time has
elapsed since you kicked the steam switch on.
I don't have the attention span to concentrate that long thought and so
I would often miss it. Adequate steam turns into less than adequate
steam pretty quick when the element is not on.
I had the two set point PID and had the steam switch activate set point
two which was set to 300+ degrees F.
This means that the boiler took off on a mad race to a much higher temp
and left plenty of time to steam at will
my experience with and enjoyment in using Silvia took a big step upward
- instead of hitting my forehead with "doh - missed it again" I just
steamed merrily away....
Now, as to whether the Silvia has plenty of steam? well, it makes good
micro foam precisely because it emits a rather low pressure, low volume
jet of steam - at least compared to the Linea that I have since moved
the PID to. the Linea steam took a while to get used to - no microfoam
just flying milk!
Matt Simpson
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 03:39:14
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On 7 Sep 2006 19:34:14 -0700, wisdomcoffee@gmail.com wrote:
>I'm sorry I have to disagree with Marshall, but having some experience
>in the matter, thought I'd chime in briefly...
>
>The Silvia's steam power is, in my opinion, adequate but not plentiful.
> It is more adequate when you hit the steam before the tstat turns off
>- which is easy to do if you are concentrating on how much time has
>elapsed since you kicked the steam switch on.
>Matt Simpson
You may be forgetting these guys already have a PID installed, which
will give a continuous temperature readout. You just start steaming
when it hits steaming temp.
Marshall
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 21:51:53
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On 7 Sep 2006 19:34:14 -0700, wisdomcoffee@gmail.com wrote:
>Now, as to whether the Silvia has plenty of steam? well, it makes good
>micro foam precisely because it emits a rather low pressure, low volume
>jet of steam - at least compared to the Linea that I have since moved
>the PID to. the Linea steam took a while to get used to - no microfoam
>just flying milk!
The simple fact of the matter is that the Silvia is relatively
underpowered with 800 watts, and won't produce steam at a copious rate
once its reserve runs out. If the TSat kicks off at any point, and the
heat satys off for the 10C drop, it will be painful.
The solution of course is not a PID (controls are about throttling
something that has too much power), but rather a switch that forces
the heat on (with the safety stat still in line) whenever one turns on
the steam. This should cost all of $10 in materials, although it may
require a bit of ingenuity to mount the actuating cam on the steam
shaft.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 17:40:36
From: daveb
Subject: steam PID BS
|
You are clearly outnumbered.
Marshall put it very well
"tinkering for tinkering's sake"
Mud Pup wrote:
> Marshall wrote:
> >
> > Nonsense. The Silvia is a powerful steamer, some (like Greg Scace)
> > have suggested it might even be too powerful. There is no need to
> > precisely hit any particular point of the steaming cycle. It has more
> > than enough heating and water capacity to froth enough milk for two
> > drinks, which is about what it what it was designed for (maybe a few
> > more).
>
> "Nonsense" ? Clearly the OP and some of Jim's customers disagree
> to the point of being willing to spend time and/or money to fix it.
> Maybe you can make microfoam when the steam is going up and down.
> Maybe you don't care about good microfoam. Maybe you don't make
> milk drinks at all. When I'm outnumbered, I hesitate before going
> from "it's sufficient for me" to "it's sufficient for you."
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 16:33:21
From: Sammus
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
I've come up with a better idea - well cheaper and what I'd prefer - I
read about a machine recently that has a microswitch which turnes the
heater element on when you start steaming...has anyone put one of these
on a silvia before?All I can think of is a tiny hole and a usually off
momentary switch - which bypasses the steam tstat - mounted properly
under the steam valve knob, so when the valve is closed its pressing
the switch and the tstat works normally - so even if you miss the point
and tstat clicks off, start steaming and wham, heater back on again!
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 12:39:25
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
Marshall wrote:
> This is a truly terrible idea and a great example of tinkering for the
> sake of tinkering. When you put a single boiler machine into steam
> mode, what you want it to do is change from brewing to steaming
> temperature as quickly as possible. Reaching and maintaing a minimum
> temperature/pressure is important. Fine tuning and stabilizing the
> temperature above that point is not.
>
> You don't want to stand around for several minutes watching a PID do
> it's "soft landing," on-and-off trick. You don't care if it's 160 or
> 165. Use the dumb thermostat for steaming! Your PID will still tell
> you what the temperature is, even when the thermostat is controlling
> the heating element.
>
> Marshall
Waiting for setpoint to be reached would waste time. Instead - start
steaming around 5F short of setpoint (295F vs 300F). The soft landing
hasn't started, so no time is lost. The ramp up is just as fast as
with non-PID.
At least 2 tangible benefits::
1) You get to choose the steam temperature, as opposed to random value
from the Silvia thermostat lottery (I drew 285F); and
2) You don't have to worry about the heating element being
de-energized by the thermostat if you are a little slow on the draw.
The PID will hold a stable temp until you are ready to go.
Jim
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 18:31:56
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On 6 Sep 2006 06:08:42 -0700, "Sammus" <Sammus187@gmail.com > wrote:
>Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it set
>to hold a steaming temp. To do this I would use it to drive the same
>SSR as the brew PID is, but with one of the wires going via the steam
>switch, so it can't acutally do anything unless steam switch is on now
>I see 2 possible problems with this:
This is a truly terrible idea and a great example of tinkering for the
sake of tinkering. When you put a single boiler machine into steam
mode, what you want it to do is change from brewing to steaming
temperature as quickly as possible. Reaching and maintaing a minimum
temperature/pressure is important. Fine tuning and stabilizing the
temperature above that point is not.
You don't want to stand around for several minutes watching a PID do
it's "soft landing," on-and-off trick. You don't care if it's 160 or
165. Use the dumb thermostat for steaming! Your PID will still tell
you what the temperature is, even when the thermostat is controlling
the heating element.
Marshall
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 19:57:09
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
Marshall wrote:
>
> You don't want to stand around for several minutes watching a PID do
> it's "soft landing," on-and-off trick. You don't care if it's 160 or
> 165. Use the dumb thermostat for steaming! Your PID will still tell
> you what the temperature is, even when the thermostat is controlling
> the heating element.
Ironically, everything you wrote supports the idea of using a PID
for steaming. Since "you don't care if it's 160 or 165", set it
for 165 and start steaming at 160, avoiding the soft landing.
You'll know it's at 160 because "your PID will still tell you what
the temperature is".
Why is using a precision instrument for steaming reasonable ?
Because "the dumb thermostat" sucks rotten eggs. This newsgroup
is full of complaints and tips about hitting the heating
cycle just right so that one has plenty of steam and doesn't
run out. If using the unused terminal on an already purchased
PID solves this problem, then it is in fact the PERFECT
application of said technology.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 23:43:03
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 19:57:09 GMT, Mud Pup
<mudpup@retriever.dyndns.org > wrote:
>. This newsgroup
>is full of complaints and tips about hitting the heating
>cycle just right so that one has plenty of steam and doesn't
>run out. If using the unused terminal on an already purchased
>PID solves this problem, then it is in fact the PERFECT
>application of said technology.
Nonsense. The Silvia is a powerful steamer, some (like Greg Scace)
have suggested it might even be too powerful. There is no need to
precisely hit any particular point of the steaming cycle. It has more
than enough heating and water capacity to froth enough milk for two
drinks, which is about what it what it was designed for (maybe a few
more).
Marshall "owned one for a couple of years"
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 23:19:34
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
"Marshall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:s6b1g2l53fiq90n9q3nq4qa3apkk03akh5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 19:57:09 GMT, Mud Pup
> <mudpup@retriever.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>>. This newsgroup
>>is full of complaints and tips about hitting the heating
>>cycle just right so that one has plenty of steam and doesn't
>>run out. If using the unused terminal on an already purchased
>>PID solves this problem, then it is in fact the PERFECT
>>application of said technology.
>
> Nonsense. The Silvia is a powerful steamer, some (like Greg Scace)
> have suggested it might even be too powerful. There is no need to
> precisely hit any particular point of the steaming cycle. It has more
> than enough heating and water capacity to froth enough milk for two
> drinks, which is about what it what it was designed for (maybe a few
> more).
>
> Marshall "owned one for a couple of years"
It's no slouch with the stock 140°C steam stat & ESPECIALLY with a
150°C, it's a steam locomotive!, LOL!! {;-D
Cheers,
Craig.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 02:18:14
From: Coffee for Connoisseurs
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
Totally agree with Marshall. If you can't make great microfoam with a stock
Silvia, and more than enough for even 2 supersized cups, you need better
technique, not electronic whizbangerry.
--
Alan
alanfrew@coffeeco.com.au
www.coffeeco.com.au
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 00:35:00
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
Marshall wrote:
>
> Nonsense. The Silvia is a powerful steamer, some (like Greg Scace)
> have suggested it might even be too powerful. There is no need to
> precisely hit any particular point of the steaming cycle. It has more
> than enough heating and water capacity to froth enough milk for two
> drinks, which is about what it what it was designed for (maybe a few
> more).
"Nonsense" ? Clearly the OP and some of Jim's customers disagree
to the point of being willing to spend time and/or money to fix it.
Maybe you can make microfoam when the steam is going up and down.
Maybe you don't care about good microfoam. Maybe you don't make
milk drinks at all. When I'm outnumbered, I hesitate before going
from "it's sufficient for me" to "it's sufficient for you."
|
| | | | | |
Date: 08 Sep 2006 02:03:20
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 00:35:00 GMT, Mud Pup
<mudpup@retriever.dyndns.org > wrote:
>Marshall wrote:
>>
>> Nonsense. The Silvia is a powerful steamer, some (like Greg Scace)
>> have suggested it might even be too powerful. There is no need to
>> precisely hit any particular point of the steaming cycle. It has more
>> than enough heating and water capacity to froth enough milk for two
>> drinks, which is about what it what it was designed for (maybe a few
>> more).
>
>"Nonsense" ? Clearly the OP and some of Jim's customers disagree
>to the point of being willing to spend time and/or money to fix it.
>Maybe you can make microfoam when the steam is going up and down.
>Maybe you don't care about good microfoam. Maybe you don't make
>milk drinks at all. When I'm outnumbered, I hesitate before going
>from "it's sufficient for me" to "it's sufficient for you."
There are 145 Silvia reviews on CoffeeGeek. Steaming problems don't
seem to be a big issue there. But, surveys are really beside the
point. What exactly is the Silvia steaming problem you and Sammus
believe you have, and how does it affect the froth you make?
Marshall
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 15:40:26
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
Marshall wrote:
>
> There are 145 Silvia reviews on CoffeeGeek. Steaming problems don't
> seem to be a big issue there. But, surveys are really beside the
> point. What exactly is the Silvia steaming problem you and Sammus
> believe you have, and how does it affect the froth you make?
Reviews are beside the point, indeed. As has been stated many
times, the Silvia has plenty of steam power. The cycling
problem can be worked around by timing, or just ignored and
not bothered about. It's an annoyance, not a design flaw.
The problem, to those who like to make beautiful microfoam,
is that when the steam pressure drops, the milk stops
swirling as vigorously and it stops sucking in air as
quickly. Does it stop altogether ? No, but you usually
wind up closer to your final temperature before you
get enough air in the milk. A catastrophe ? No, we're
just making milk drinks, not mixing industrial plastics.
On the other hand, if we have an input and a set point on
a PID that is not being used, and all it takes a couple
wires, no components whatsoever, and you're clearly
proficient enough to have opened it and attached all the
other PID stuff already, why not use the feature to make
your life just that little bit easier ? It's such a no-brainer,
I don't even know why people argue about it.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 10:51:02
From: jim schulman
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 15:40:26 GMT, Mud Pup
<mudpup@retriever.dyndns.org > wrote:
>On the other hand, if we have an input and a set point on
>a PID that is not being used, and all it takes a couple
>wires, no components whatsoever, and you're clearly
>proficient enough to have opened it and attached all the
>other PID stuff already, why not use the feature to make
>your life just that little bit easier ? It's such a no-brainer,
>I don't even know why people argue about it.
Because a PID set at 135C, or 145C, 1,450,000C doesn't do squat if the
800 watt heater can't maintain the boiler at higher than 105C to 110C
while the steam valve is open. The Silvia's steaming problem, such as
it is, comes from the low wattage heater; once the initial charge of
steam is used up, the temperature will drop and the steaming slow even
as the heater runs flat out. No amount of controls will change that.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 22:00:31
From: Mud Pup
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
jim schulman wrote:
>
> Because a PID set at 135C, or 145C, 1,450,000C doesn't do squat if the
> 800 watt heater can't maintain the boiler at higher than 105C to 110C
> while the steam valve is open. The Silvia's steaming problem, such as
> it is, comes from the low wattage heater; once the initial charge of
> steam is used up, the temperature will drop and the steaming slow even
> as the heater runs flat out. No amount of controls will change that.
Interesting, but in disagreement with others' praise of the Silvia,
and irrelevant to the problem of the boiler cooling down just because
the thermostat told it to. Just because it doesn't solve all the
problems, doesn't make it worthless.
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 18:33:34
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 18:31:56 GMT, Marshall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
>On 6 Sep 2006 06:08:42 -0700, "Sammus" <Sammus187@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi, I've got a spare PID controller and was thinking of having it set
>>to hold a steaming temp. To do this I would use it to drive the same
>>SSR as the brew PID is, but with one of the wires going via the steam
>>switch, so it can't acutally do anything unless steam switch is on now
>>I see 2 possible problems with this:
>
>This is a truly terrible idea and a great example of tinkering for the
>sake of tinkering. When you put a single boiler machine into steam
>mode, what you want it to do is change from brewing to steaming
>temperature as quickly as possible. Reaching and maintaing a minimum
>temperature/pressure is important. Fine tuning and stabilizing the
>temperature above that point is not.
>
>You don't want to stand around for several minutes watching a PID do
>it's "soft landing," on-and-off trick. You don't care if it's 160 or
>165. Use the dumb thermostat for steaming! Your PID will still tell
>you what the temperature is, even when the thermostat is controlling
>the heating element.
>
>Marshall
FWIW, I start my steaming on my Zaffiro at 140C (measured internally).
Marshall
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Date: 07 Sep 2006 11:04:07
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
Mud Pup wrote:
> Ok, last question, promise: Why does the 935A need an external
> power supply to do the steam operation ?
>
None of the 935A models have an event input. Instead, all of them have
a remote setpoint feature. When provided with a variable input voltage
of 0-5VDC across the OT1 terminals, the 935A will scale that input
value between rL (range low) and rH (range high) to select the active
set point. I used rL=228, rH=300, with an external regulated 5VDC
supply that is either ON (5VDC maps to 300F) or OFF (0VDC maps to
228F). Power to the PSU comes from the steam switch.
Obviously, I prefer using the 96 for dual setpoints, but the 935A is a
much less expensive controller.
Jim
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 05:55:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: silvia steam -- the thread with legs!
|
so right Jim. based on the number of Silvias I get in here with a
melted heating element, needing a new boiler.
-- run dry and left on steam mode. the high limit never cut in,
Sam does have an idea, and it is implemented in some Saecos, except
that when in steam mode, the micro switch on the knob actuates the
water pump, as Saeco has an entirely different design to its boiler and
heater.
jim schulman wrote:
>
> I was thinking the steam knob, not the switch; even with the safety
> stat still in line, that's a bit on the living dangerously side.
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Date: 08 Sep 2006 01:31:21
From: Sammus
Subject: Re: silvia steam PID
|
> What exactly is the Silvia steaming problem you and Sammus
> believe you have, and how does it affect the froth you make?
>
> Marshall
I don't have much of a problem at all - except for missing the vital
point to start steaming before the light goes off - I admitted it was
tinkering for the sake of it :)
In case you all missed my other post in bickering amongst yourselves,
I've decided to install a microswitch under the steam knob - which is
also dependant on the steam switch - the steam switch has to be on and
the valve unscrewed for it to drive a relay which will in turn bypass
the steam tstat...any problem here? can I get away without a relay? I
dont think I can get a microswitch thatll take however much current is
through that heater...actually in couldnt be more than about 5A could
it? at 240V, drawing 5A would mean the heater is ~1200W - and I dont
think its that high on mine - its be worth checking out tho...hmm maybe
I don't need a relay...any comments?
The reason I also want it dependant on the steam switch is because
after steaming I often (turn off the switch, then) open the wand and
hit the brew switch to refill boiler....quick recovery after steaming,
and also helps heat up the machine internals (group etc) if it hasn't
been on for long, kinda like a super cheating miss silvia :P
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