dream machine design...

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Date: 09 Feb 2007 04:13:12
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: dream machine design...

After the third single-malt whiskey of the evening I tend to start day
dreaming. First it was about the attractive blond that moved in four houses
down, then it was about what I need to do this weekend on my 'vette
restoration project. Both of those were too exhausting to consider for long
so I decided to make a shot of espresso & sit back and relax. That got me
thinking about what I DON'T like about my current espresso machines.

Suppose you were given the opportunity to design & manufacture a new
prosumer 1-group machine from scratch - what would you want in it & what
materials would you prefer it be made of?

Here's my wish list in no particular order:
1. small footprint
2. max 55# dry weight
3. two boilers
4. thin wall S/S boilers, amply insulated
5. high powered boiler element(s)
6. brass group
7. auto siphon group
8. rotary pump w/smallest motor possible
9. both boilers PID'd
10. plumb or pour over option
11. quick release fasteners on all external panels
12. compression fittings throughout & plastic (Nylon?) tubing
13. full-auto controls
14. powder coated exterior panels

Explanations:
1. smaller footprint = better fit for home counters (IMHO NS Oscar is too
large)
2. 55# is the most I want to lift (#8 may need to be external)
3. better to switch from steam to brew or do both simultaneously (by having
high-wattage elements volume may not be an issue)
4. I've never figured out the use of copper here - the element is internal
so there's no conductivity issues & S/S is non-reactive.
5. ?? - if it's left on 24/7 no problem, but if not it needs to heat up
quickly
6, 7, & 9. consistent temperature regulation
8 & 9. less prone to failure than oscillating pumps & along with #9
contributes to a quieter machine
10. some people don't want to mess with plumbing
11. easy on/easy off panels for simplified maintenance
12. no soldered or brazed tubes to crack & leak, plus it's much easier to
repair a plastic tube & compression fitting
13. KISS so everyone will want to use it
14. I for one am tired of looking at sterile looking S/S machinery. Powder
coating is tougher than paint.

I could go on but you get the idea. Now if I could just find someone that
has my dream machine on the shelf already. Oh yeah, the price for this
machine? I'd be willing to pay $1500 to $2500 for such a machine IF it had
all of the features listed above.

SIGH
--
Robert (Dream big!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

Date: 11 Feb 2007 23:26:04
From: Teme
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On 11 helmi, 23:40, "Dan Bollinger" <danNObollin...@insightSPAMbb.com >
wrote:
> > Yup. The GS3 is now happily up and running :)
>
> Excellent! Any chance of some more photos? Of the inside? Dan

Sure. I'll take some more photos next time I open the machine up
(during the weekend probably). Anything specific you'd be interested
in seeing?

Br,
Teme

Date: 11 Feb 2007 23:24:08
From: Teme
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On 11 helmi, 22:31, shall <mrf...@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2007 12:42:06 -0800, "Teme" <teemu.pihla...@webspeed.dk>
> wrote:
>
> Although I've had a few conversations with Esa-Pekka Salonen, I don't
> think I picked up any Finnish. What does that mean, Teme?
>
> shall "sees Esa-Pekka's planning another Sibelius festival in L.A.
> this fall"

shall,

I'm not sure I understand the question?

As for Mr Salonen, I have had the pleasure of seeing him perform live
only once (but I have never met him).

Br,
Teme

Date: 11 Feb 2007 12:42:06
From: Teme
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On 11 helmi, 16:49, shall <mrf...@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:16:27 -0000, "Bertie Doe"
>
>
>
>
>
> <montebrasi...@ntl.com> wrote:
>
> >"shall" <mrf...@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:j00ts2du35pa4tgk2t386i5e7knv33rh52@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:34:31 GMT, shall
> >> <mrf...@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>>Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
> >>>of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
> >>>Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
> >>>Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
> >>>it's for real.
>
> >>>shall
>
> >> A consumer in Copenhagen has also gotten his and is blogging about it:
> >>http://temesblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/gs3-arrives.html
>
> >> shall
>
> >In yesterday's blog, Theme mentioned that the pressure was stuck on 5bar=
.=2E..
>
> Let's keep the unfounded rumor mill to a minimum. I'm sure the
> earliest adopters will have plenty of real "adventures" without
> inventing any for them. Teme did not say it was "stuck." What he said
> was that it was delivered at 5 bar and the manual had no instructions
> on adjusting it.
>
> shall "thank heaven for early adopters"- Piilota siteerattu teksti -
>
> - N=E4yt=E4 siteerattu teksti -

Yup. The GS3 is now happily up and running :)

Br,
Teme

Date: 11 Feb 2007 17:40:27
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

> Yup. The GS3 is now happily up and running :)

Excellent! Any chance of some more photos? Of the inside? Dan

Date: 11 Feb 2007 21:31:24
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On 11 Feb 2007 12:42:06 -0800, "Teme" <teemu.pihlatie@webspeed.dk >
wrote:

>> shall "thank heaven for early adopters"

>- Piilota siteerattu teksti -
>
> - Näytä siteerattu teksti -

Although I've had a few conversations with Esa-Pekka Salonen, I don't
think I picked up any Finnish. What does that mean, Teme?

shall "sees Esa-Pekka's planning another Sibelius festival in L.A.
this fall"

Date: 11 Feb 2007 05:41:37
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 10, 6:34 pm, shall <mrf...@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:
> Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
> of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
> Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
> Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
> it's for real.

Would one of you gentlemen who is versed in such things explain what
is involved in obtaining UL and NSF certification and why it would be
so difficult for this machine, which seems to be impeccably made of
the very best materials?

Date: 11 Feb 2007 09:26:14
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

> Would one of you gentlemen who is versed in such things explain what
> is involved in obtaining UL and NSF certification and why it would be
> so difficult for this machine, which seems to be impeccably made of
> the very best materials?

Both require a lot of time and money and significant documentation. UL is going
to test for electrical problems. NSF is going to look at material specs.

D

Date: 12 Feb 2007 01:08:29
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:26:14 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>> Would one of you gentlemen who is versed in such things explain what
>> is involved in obtaining UL and NSF certification and why it would be
>> so difficult for this machine, which seems to be impeccably made of
>> the very best materials?
>
>Both require a lot of time and money and significant documentation. UL is going
>to test for electrical problems. NSF is going to look at material specs.

and fwiu, dealing with either is worse than dealing with the DMV.

Date: 10 Feb 2007 19:41:07
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

apart from the price, how far off from your specs is the GS3?

Date: 10 Feb 2007 21:32:12
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Howdy Barry!
Assuming you're referring to the LM GS3, the specs look promising & once I
can poke my head inside one I'll be able to determine more. I especially
like the S/S boilers - I'm so tired of corroded copper boilers already! I'm
hoping they used plastic tubing & not S/S, which is prone to stress
fractures almost as much as copper.

BTW, are these readily available in the U.S. yet? It seems like I've been
hearing for years that some folks have ordered one, but has anyone actually
received a production model? Last I heard there was a LONG line of folks
just waiting/hoping for someone to sell them one. Has anyone heard where the
MSRP (last rumor $4000+) is finally going to be pegged? And was ugly part of
the design specs from keting or was it designed by Tuscans as a practical
joke on the world?
--
Robert (New toys, gotta have more new toys. More I say - MORE!) Ha, Ha,
Ha...armon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:tt7ss2ds99k9g579ofjrvju1copbt6fr8n@4ax.com...
>
>
> apart from the price, how far off from your specs is the GS3?
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 09:35:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Ugly and almost 21 inches deep. they could have made it lower in height =
-- but then fully half of it would be hanging over the front of the =
counter.

look for delivery in mid-'08.

dave 215

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message =
news:wRqzh.594$Jl.221@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Howdy Barry!
> Assuming you're referring to the LM GS3, the specs look promising & =
once I=20
> can poke my head inside one I'll be able to determine more. I =
especially=20
> like the S/S boilers - I'm so tired of corroded copper boilers =
already! I'm=20
> hoping they used plastic tubing & not S/S, which is prone to stress=20
> fractures almost as much as copper.
>=20
> BTW, are these readily available in the U.S. yet? It seems like I've =
been=20
> hearing for years that some folks have ordered one, but has anyone =
actually=20
> received a production model? Last I heard there was a LONG line of =
folks=20
> just waiting/hoping for someone to sell them one. Has anyone heard =
where the=20
> MSRP (last rumor $4000+) is finally going to be pegged? And was ugly =
part of=20
> the design specs from keting or was it designed by Tuscans as a =
practical=20
> joke on the world?
> --=20
> Robert (New toys, gotta have more new toys. More I say - MORE!) Ha, =
Ha,=20
> Ha...armon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>=20
> "Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com> wrote in message=20
> news:tt7ss2ds99k9g579ofjrvju1copbt6fr8n@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> apart from the price, how far off from your specs is the GS3?
>>=20
>=20
>
------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C74DBF.F2D6BC80
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" >
<HTML ><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1" >
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=3DGENERATOR >
<STYLE ></STYLE>
</HEAD >
<BODY >
<DIV >Ugly and almost 21 inches =
deep. they=20
could have made it lower in height -- but then fully =
half of it=20
would be hanging over the front of the counter.</DIV>
<DIV > </DIV>
<DIV >look for delivery in=20
mid-'08.</DIV>
<DIV > </DIV>
<DIV >dave 215</DIV>
<DIV > </DIV>
<DIV >"Robert Harmon" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com" >r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com</A>> wrote in=20
message <A=20
href=3D"news:wRqzh.594$Jl.221@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net" >news:wRqzh.594$Jl.221@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net</A=
><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2 >...</DIV>> =
Howdy=20
Barry! > Assuming you're referring to the LM GS3, the specs look =
promising=20
& once I > can poke my head inside one I'll be able to =
determine=20
more. I especially > like the S/S boilers - I'm so tired of =
corroded=20
copper boilers already! I'm > hoping they used plastic tubing =
& not=20
S/S, which is prone to stress > fractures almost as much as=20
copper. > > BTW, are these readily available in the U.S. =
yet? It=20
seems like I've been > hearing for years that some folks have =
ordered=20
one, but has anyone actually > received a production model? Last =
I heard=20
there was a LONG line of folks > just waiting/hoping for someone =
to sell=20
them one. Has anyone heard where the > MSRP (last rumor $4000+) =
is=20
finally going to be pegged? And was ugly part of > the design =
specs from=20
keting or was it designed by Tuscans as a practical > joke on =
the=20
world? > -- > Robert (New toys, gotta have more new toys. =
More I=20
say - MORE!) Ha, Ha, > Ha...armon > <A=20
href=3D"http://tinyurl.com/pou2y" >http://tinyurl.com/pou2y</A> >=20
<A href=3D"http://tinyurl.com/psfob">http://tinyurl.com/psfob</A> >=20
<A href=3D"http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r">http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r</A> >=20
 > "Barry Jarrett" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:barry@rileys-coffee.com" >barry@rileys-coffee.com</A>> wrote in=20
message > <A=20
href=3D"news:tt7ss2ds99k9g579ofjrvju1copbt6fr8n@4ax.com" >news:tt7ss2ds99k9g579ofjrvju1copbt6fr8n@4ax.com</A>... >> >> >> apart from =
the price,=20
how far off from your specs is the GS3? >> >=20
 ></BODY></HTML>

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Date: 10 Feb 2007 23:34:31
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:32:12 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>Howdy Barry!
>Assuming you're referring to the LM GS3, the specs look promising & once I
>can poke my head inside one I'll be able to determine more. I especially
>like the S/S boilers - I'm so tired of corroded copper boilers already! I'm
>hoping they used plastic tubing & not S/S, which is prone to stress
>fractures almost as much as copper.
>
>BTW, are these readily available in the U.S. yet? It seems like I've been
>hearing for years that some folks have ordered one, but has anyone actually
>received a production model? Last I heard there was a LONG line of folks
>just waiting/hoping for someone to sell them one. Has anyone heard where the
>MSRP (last rumor $4000+) is finally going to be pegged? And was ugly part of
>the design specs from keting or was it designed by Tuscans as a practical
>joke on the world?

Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
it's for real.

shall

Date: 11 Feb 2007 10:07:01
From: daveb
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

If they want to sell this thing for home use then NSF is not needed.

"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:2glss2t6n7phknbkvg6cg3lodd104ft3l0@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:32:12 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
> <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Howdy Barry!
>>Assuming you're referring to the LM GS3, the specs look promising & once I
>>can poke my head inside one I'll be able to determine more. I especially
>>like the S/S boilers - I'm so tired of corroded copper boilers already!
>>I'm
>>hoping they used plastic tubing & not S/S, which is prone to stress
>>fractures almost as much as copper.
>>
>>BTW, are these readily available in the U.S. yet? It seems like I've been
>>hearing for years that some folks have ordered one, but has anyone
>>actually
>>received a production model? Last I heard there was a LONG line of folks
>>just waiting/hoping for someone to sell them one. Has anyone heard where
>>the
>>MSRP (last rumor $4000+) is finally going to be pegged? And was ugly part
>>of
>>the design specs from keting or was it designed by Tuscans as a
>>practical
>>joke on the world?
>
> Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
> of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
> Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
> Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
> it's for real.
>
> shall

Date: 11 Feb 2007 02:32:29
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:34:31 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
>of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
>Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
>Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
>it's for real.
>
>shall

A consumer in Copenhagen has also gotten his and is blogging about it:
http://temesblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/gs3-arrives.html

shall

Date: 11 Feb 2007 10:16:27
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:j00ts2du35pa4tgk2t386i5e7knv33rh52@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:34:31 GMT, shall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
>>of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
>>Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
>>Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
>>it's for real.
>>
>>shall
>
> A consumer in Copenhagen has also gotten his and is blogging about it:
> http://temesblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/gs3-arrives.html
>
> shall

In yesterday's blog, Theme mentioned that the pressure was stuck on 5bar and
he wasn't going to pull a shot until it was sorted - and it came with a
plastic tamper!!
shall, you don't need a GS3, just pimp one of Andy's circulatory pumps
and pop it in the Zaffiro and eliminate that 10C drop between boiler and
cup. Then post pics of how it's done, for me to copy on my Zaff.
Bertie

Date: 11 Feb 2007 15:49:17
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:16:27 -0000, "Bertie Doe"
<montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote:

>
>"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:j00ts2du35pa4tgk2t386i5e7knv33rh52@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:34:31 GMT, shall
>> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
>>>of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
>>>Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
>>>Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
>>>it's for real.
>>>
>>>shall
>>
>> A consumer in Copenhagen has also gotten his and is blogging about it:
>> http://temesblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/gs3-arrives.html
>>
>> shall
>
>In yesterday's blog, Theme mentioned that the pressure was stuck on 5bar....

Let's keep the unfounded rumor mill to a minimum. I'm sure the
earliest adopters will have plenty of real "adventures" without
inventing any for them. Teme did not say it was "stuck." What he said
was that it was delivered at 5 bar and the manual had no instructions
on adjusting it.

shall "thank heaven for early adopters"

Date: 11 Feb 2007 22:04:59
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:faeus2hq2giot1su8pmg1jreqjnana9ch7@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:16:27 -0000, "Bertie Doe"
> <montebrasite4@ntl.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:j00ts2du35pa4tgk2t386i5e7knv33rh52@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 23:34:31 GMT, shall
>>> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well, the World Barista Champion just got his in Copenhagen. The rest
>>>>of us will have to wait until UL (and maybe NSF) have certified them.
>>>>Certification seems to have proven more daunting than LM anticipated.
>>>>Some of us already saw and used the machine last summer, so we know
>>>>it's for real.
>>>>
>>>>shall
>>>
>>> A consumer in Copenhagen has also gotten his and is blogging about it:
>>> http://temesblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/gs3-arrives.html
>>>
>>> shall
>>
>>In yesterday's blog, Theme mentioned that the pressure was stuck on
>>5bar....
>
> Let's keep the unfounded rumor mill to a minimum. I'm sure the
> earliest adopters will have plenty of real "adventures" without
> inventing any for them. Teme did not say it was "stuck." What he said
> was that it was delivered at 5 bar and the manual had no instructions
> on adjusting it.
>
> shall "thank heaven for early adopters"

shall, I think you're over-reacting.

Bertie "thank heaven for people with halos" Doe

Date: 12 Feb 2007 01:05:56
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:04:59 -0000, "Bertie Doe"
<montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote:

>> Let's keep the unfounded rumor mill to a minimum. I'm sure the
>> earliest adopters will have plenty of real "adventures" without
>> inventing any for them. Teme did not say it was "stuck." What he said
>> was that it was delivered at 5 bar and the manual had no instructions
>> on adjusting it.
>>
>> shall "thank heaven for early adopters"
>
>shall, I think you're over-reacting.
>
>Bertie "thank heaven for people with halos" Doe
>
No, I'm not. Alt.coffee is probably read by at least 20 times the
number of people who post here. Things get repeated in all sorts of
places that might surprise you.

shall

Date: 12 Feb 2007 11:08:13
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:37fvs2hlpe9jnvkqo78ijg6heoql8nm9vs@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 22:04:59 -0000, "Bertie Doe"
> <montebrasite4@ntl.com> wrote:
>
>>> Let's keep the unfounded rumor mill to a minimum. I'm sure the
>>> earliest adopters will have plenty of real "adventures" without
>>> inventing any for them. Teme did not say it was "stuck." What he said
>>> was that it was delivered at 5 bar and the manual had no instructions
>>> on adjusting it.
>>>
>>> shall "thank heaven for early adopters"
>>
>>shall, I think you're over-reacting.
>>
>>Bertie "thank heaven for people with halos" Doe
>>
> No, I'm not. Alt.coffee is probably read by at least 20 times the
> number of people who post here. Things get repeated in all sorts of
> places that might surprise you.
>
> shall

I agree, you have to be very careful what you write in coffee forums. It's
not me that's criticising LM http://tinyurl.com/yr8bbe
or jumping to early conclusions ................

Bertie

Date: 09 Feb 2007 19:07:12
From: gscace
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 9:16 pm, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Howdy k!
> Isn't Bologna in Province? It was that third whiskey!
>
> The Spaz looks like a 1st class machine, and it's THAT ' ' close to being
> perfect.
> --
> Robert (Geography is why I'm an engineer, could never remember the three
> points of a compass!) Harmonhttp://tinyurl.com/pou2yhttp://tinyurl.com/psfobhttp://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "CoffeeKid" <Coffee...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1171069587.193825.321260@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 9, 6:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!
>
> > Since when?
>
> > k

Hi:

The La Spaz is quite good, but the one in my office is not as good as
the zocco in my basement. The problem with wish lists is that the
wished for items may be included in the machine, but if they ain't
correctly implemented the machine will still suffer.

-Greg

Date: 09 Feb 2007 17:06:27
From: CoffeeKid
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 6:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
>
> Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!

Since when?

k

Date: 10 Feb 2007 02:16:04
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Howdy k!
Isn't Bologna in Province? It was that third whiskey!

The Spaz looks like a 1st class machine, and it's THAT ' ' close to being
perfect.
--
Robert (Geography is why I'm an engineer, could never remember the three
points of a compass!) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171069587.193825.321260@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 9, 6:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!
>
> Since when?
>
> k
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 09:31:53
From: daveb
Subject: Re: dream machine design... spaz = french

another argument against operating a computer whilst drunk.

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:EV9zh.22663$w91.20775@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Howdy k!
> Isn't Bologna in Province? It was that third whiskey!
>
> The Spaz looks like a 1st class machine, and it's THAT ' ' close to being
> perfect.
> --
> Robert (Geography is why I'm an engineer, could never remember the three
> points of a compass!) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
> "CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1171069587.193825.321260@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 9, 6:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!
>>
>> Since when?
>>
>> k
>>
>
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 16:48:40
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: dream machine design... spaz = french

"daveb" --
>> Robert (Geography is why I'm an engineer, could never remember the three
>> points of a compass!) Harmon

The sharp bit, the one with the pencil and the bit you hold. Thought that
was engineering?

Date: 09 Feb 2007 18:40:58
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"CoffeeKid" <Coffeekid@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1171069587.193825.321260@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 9, 6:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!
>
> Since when?
>
> k
>

C'est un reve. Tu peu décider:-)

Date: 09 Feb 2007 09:56:09
From: Roger Shoaf
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:sxSyh.22296$w91.2218@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Suppose you were given the opportunity to design & manufacture a new
> prosumer 1-group machine from scratch - what would you want in it & what
> materials would you prefer it be made of?
>

OK here is my idea.

First off separate the concept of brewing the coffee from steaming the milk.
Milk steaming can be done with a stove top pressure cooker fitted with a
valve and a steam wand.

Next think about brewing the coffee. Water under pressure is forced through
finely ground and compressed puck of coffee. It is desirable to be able to
control to a good degree of precision the temperature of the water and the
amount of pressure.

I would have a small boiler approximately 6 oz. to boil 4 or 5 oz of water
at a time. The water would be heated quickly and to a point probably 20
degrees or so above boiling. Once this temp is achieved the water in the
boiler is under pressure and by opening a valve to a holding chamber above
the portafilter, about 2 or 3 oz of water would be introduced into the
chamber. The chamber is fitted with a thermocouple and the water
temperature has no where to go but down. The mass of this chamber and the
thermal conductivity of the material it is fabricated from would be adjusted
so the optimal water temperature is reached in about 20 to 40 seconds.

Once the water is cooled to the target point, regulated air pressure is used
to force the water through the puck of coffee. Air pressure could be from a
compressor or bottled gas.

The pressure should remain constant and be adjustable to dial in the sweet
spot of optimal extraction.

As I see this idea, you can nail exactly your variables of temperature and
pressure. You would not need a lot of power to boil the water. It would
not make shots rapidly back to back like big commercial units, but you could
probably pull a double shot every 4 or 5 minutes and it would be reasonably
cheap to make. If you wanted it fancy, you could rig a PIC controller and
some electromechanical valves to automate the process, and it would still be
on the cheap.

For those travelers, a propane torch could be used to heat the water and a
small bottle of compressed gas would probably get you through a two week
trip. If you were traveling by air however, you would probably have to get
the bottle filled when you arrive. The whole kit could be fitted into a
briefcase.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 08:27:05
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 10:22 am, "cpaullie" <spaul...@yahoo.com > wrote:
>
> God I love this newsgroup....I'm a neophyte coffee geek & new reader,
> but in current/past lives have spent (misspent?) decades as a serious
> geek in the lands of food & wine, hifi equipment, sports, etc. etc.,
> and I have to say you folks carry your mania to heights (depths?) that
> are truly mind-blowing. Keep up the great work (and the bickering),
> as I need all the smiles I can get over my morning French press/
> freshly-ground/well-made (IMHO) Red Sea blend from a local boutique
> roaster.....Cheers!

Wine, food, hi/fi, sports - missed the biggy, computers. Americans
played their role in building and fueling the IT/PC revolution. Bunch
of tinkers and handymen that started up out of backyard garages.
Without which, we'd be sitting around twidling our collective thumbs
in non-virtual reality, with Heavy Iron IBM for sole pinnings of a
corporate backdrop.

The coffee aspect is old, older than this bunch of fidgeters. Scared
King George of England, believe it was he who did it, into issuing a
proclimation of law against an entirely affected populace about the
hazards of coffee (which shortly thereafter repealed by popular
accord). Gin was hell back then, too, I'd think.

Espresso's been pretty good, though, so the Italians actually hit on a
good thing when they put the screws and cogs to coffee. If you don't
mind me saying, blows the socks right off a French press, aye, with
nothing but naked toes left to wiggle.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 17:07:15
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Ah yes, toes! Toes, toes, toes - wonderful toes! Ugh, French (anything, but
French) press!
--
Robert (It's not a fetish, but definitely an acquired taste.' H. Lechter)
Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote in message
news:1171038425.654696.134210@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 9, 10:22 am, "cpaullie" <spaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>

> Espresso's been pretty good, though, so the Italians actually hit on a
> good thing when they put the screws and cogs to coffee. If you don't
> mind me saying, blows the socks right off a French press, aye, with
> nothing but naked toes left to wiggle.
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 07:22:39
From: cpaullie
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 7:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> Response to selected posts & some soapbox oratory:
>
> Under $1000 is not going to happen for these features, sorry.
>
> Visacrem Nera - I liked it but it's not dual boiler. I do have a Bunn HX
> made by these folks & I like what I've seen.
>
> Wega is not in the running - S/S & HX
>
> Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!
>
> Circulating pump for group? Well I did specify group siphon, but you want
> overkill, right? OK, add it to the list.
>
> TC in group? Yeah, OK.
>
> Reneka Techno - French!
>
> Before anyone climbs on my butt for my Francophobia, consider that I might
> have reasons other than the 'current' political climate. If it's French I'll
> pass. Thanks, but no thanks.
>
> One of my biggest objections to any of the machines I've seen up close (last
> time in Italy I was treated to mini tours of several factories) is their
> old-school mind sets. Take the single issue of copper for example. It's a
> perfectly wonderful metal, has been around for millenia. It predates modern
> history in fact. But why is it used so widely in espresso machines?
>
> Copper is prone to stress fractures & leaks and subject to corrosion. It's
> easy to fabricate & install but not so easy to repair. It's an expensive
> metal - currently @ $2.4 lb.
>
> So, what would I replace copper with? Stainless steel, or even polymer,
> boilers would last forever & have no impact on flavors. Plastic (nylon)
> tubing is widely used in industrial & high-tech environment where pressures
> & temperatures dwarf those found in espresso machines. There are many other
> options. I understand company's being resistent to change; Hell I've long
> been associated with an organization famed for it's reluctance to change,
> until someone dies.
>
> Maybe that's the role of China or India in the coffee world. Since their
> manufacturing facilities are always new from the ground up they'd have no
> expensive conversion process to go through, unlike the Italians & French. I
> believe that the first company that imbraces the new(er) technologies will
> steal a ch in the ketplace. I just hope I don't have to wait too long
> for someone to try this approach.

God I love this newsgroup....I'm a neophyte coffee geek & new reader,
but in current/past lives have spent (misspent?) decades as a serious
geek in the lands of food & wine, hifi equipment, sports, etc. etc.,
and I have to say you folks carry your mania to heights (depths?) that
are truly mind-blowing. Keep up the great work (and the bickering),
as I need all the smiles I can get over my morning French press/
freshly-ground/well-made (IMHO) Red Sea blend from a local boutique
roaster.....Cheers!

Date: 09 Feb 2007 07:18:25
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 9:50 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
>
> Maybe that's the role of China or India in the coffee world. Since their
> manufacturing facilities are always new from the ground up they'd have no
> expensive conversion process to go through, unlike the Italians & French. I
> believe that the first company that imbraces the new(er) technologies will
> steal a ch in the ketplace. I just hope I don't have to wait too long
> for someone to try this approach.

Could well be. Problem is precisely that you will have to wait.
Until espresso machines come out from behind niche keting to
provide viable economic gearing for die and toolworks labor assembly
facilities, it's going to be just another latent lode of burried
resources waiting to be developed. Behind oil, no less, with coffee
second across volume commodity exchanges, and no one has yet managed
to bring out a thrifty offshore contender as a challenge to better
espresso works.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 14:50:09
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Response to selected posts & some soapbox oratory:

Under $1000 is not going to happen for these features, sorry.

Visacrem Nera - I liked it but it's not dual boiler. I do have a Bunn HX
made by these folks & I like what I've seen.

Wega is not in the running - S/S & HX

Vivaldi (La Spazielle) is French!

Circulating pump for group? Well I did specify group siphon, but you want
overkill, right? OK, add it to the list.

TC in group? Yeah, OK.

Reneka Techno - French!

Before anyone climbs on my butt for my Francophobia, consider that I might
have reasons other than the 'current' political climate. If it's French I'll
pass. Thanks, but no thanks.

One of my biggest objections to any of the machines I've seen up close (last
time in Italy I was treated to mini tours of several factories) is their
old-school mind sets. Take the single issue of copper for example. It's a
perfectly wonderful metal, has been around for millenia. It predates modern
history in fact. But why is it used so widely in espresso machines?

Copper is prone to stress fractures & leaks and subject to corrosion. It's
easy to fabricate & install but not so easy to repair. It's an expensive
metal - currently @ $2.4 lb.

So, what would I replace copper with? Stainless steel, or even polymer,
boilers would last forever & have no impact on flavors. Plastic (nylon)
tubing is widely used in industrial & high-tech environment where pressures
& temperatures dwarf those found in espresso machines. There are many other
options. I understand company's being resistent to change; Hell I've long
been associated with an organization famed for it's reluctance to change,
until someone dies.

Maybe that's the role of China or India in the coffee world. Since their
manufacturing facilities are always new from the ground up they'd have no
expensive conversion process to go through, unlike the Italians & French. I
believe that the first company that imbraces the new(er) technologies will
steal a ch in the ketplace. I just hope I don't have to wait too long
for someone to try this approach.

Date: 09 Feb 2007 05:52:30
From: daveb
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 8:26 am, "ramboori...@gmail.com" <ramboori...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> On Feb 9, 5:55 am, "ramboori...@gmail.com" <ramboori...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think this comes pretty close, except that it's plumbed only. Ten
> > pounds over your weight, but still pretty manageable. Don't know how
> > you define 'small footprint', but this is as small as most HX
> > machines. Not close to as small as the Siliva, but you couldn't get
> > everything you wanted in something that small. This is the one I'd
> > like to have if I had just a bit more counterspace.
>
> Sorry, guess I forgot to add the link:
>
> http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/vivaldi_2
>
> Adds a bit of context :)
>
> -Ray

You nailed it Ray.

[and with out "single malt" yada!]

the machine already exists and is in production and available. but
for the US, I'd dump the lame celsuis lights and put in a digi F
degree display.

Dave

Date: 09 Feb 2007 05:26:36
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 5:55 am, "ramboori...@gmail.com" <ramboori...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> I think this comes pretty close, except that it's plumbed only. Ten
> pounds over your weight, but still pretty manageable. Don't know how
> you define 'small footprint', but this is as small as most HX
> machines. Not close to as small as the Siliva, but you couldn't get
> everything you wanted in something that small. This is the one I'd
> like to have if I had just a bit more counterspace.

Sorry, guess I forgot to add the link:

http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/espresso/vivaldi_2

Adds a bit of context :)

-Ray

Date: 09 Feb 2007 02:55:34
From: ramboorider@gmail.com
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

I think this comes pretty close, except that it's plumbed only. Ten
pounds over your weight, but still pretty manageable. Don't know how
you define 'small footprint', but this is as small as most HX
machines. Not close to as small as the Siliva, but you couldn't get
everything you wanted in something that small. This is the one I'd
like to have if I had just a bit more counterspace.

-Ray

Date: 09 Feb 2007 12:45:29
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

In article <1171018534.852339.127460@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com >,
ramboorider@gmail.com <ramboorider@gmail.com > wrote:
> I think this comes pretty close, except that it's plumbed only. Ten
> pounds over your weight, but still pretty manageable. Don't know how
> you define 'small footprint', but this is as small as most HX
> machines. Not close to as small as the Siliva, but you couldn't get
> everything you wanted in something that small. This is the one I'd
> like to have if I had just a bit more counterspace.

Was explained to me that the boiler(s) are kept at a small
excess pressure which apparently helps them keep temperature
whilst 'on'. (Dunno ..but so I was told)!

Perhaps because of the pressure there's only a small electrical
top-up required once they're up to heat - with an added advantage
in that both hot water and espresso are instantly available.

The suggestion seemed to be that the cost is not dissimilar to
a 'pour-over' in that most of the electrical consumption occurs
in the first half-hour or so whilst heating up to temperature
from cold.

I guess it must also be possible to keep the water topped up
from a pour-over 'tank' of filtered water, perhaps one of those
filtered water cooler containers, rather than a having a bespoke
plumbed-in filtered mains tap.

Waste - which may not too great in a domestic environment - can
merely be allowed to dribble into a bilge tank or pail under
the counter. Easily emptied when the stale dregs flow over yer
feet to remind you..!

In GB, I suppose among others, there's also the various Wega
single groups as at:

http://www.pennineteaandcoffee.com/caaa552.htm

Cheaper than one of the Visacrem models and probably not much
different to most other machines of the same type available in
USofA..?

The Wegas', though, don't appear to have the posh coloured powder
coating of the Visacrem machines, especially the deep, deep blue
or the strikingly red side and trim panels..! :))

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/

Date: 09 Feb 2007 22:14:37
From: RobvL
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

The machine that comes very close to that description was the Reneka Techno.
No longer in production. René stopped taking orders for them early last
month if i am not mistaken.

Rob vL
NZ

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:sxSyh.22296$w91.2218@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> After the third single-malt whiskey of the evening I tend to start day
> dreaming. First it was about the attractive blond that moved in four
houses
> down, then it was about what I need to do this weekend on my 'vette
> restoration project. Both of those were too exhausting to consider for
long
> so I decided to make a shot of espresso & sit back and relax. That got me
> thinking about what I DON'T like about my current espresso machines.
>
> Suppose you were given the opportunity to design & manufacture a new
> prosumer 1-group machine from scratch - what would you want in it & what
> materials would you prefer it be made of?
>
> Here's my wish list in no particular order:
> 1. small footprint
> 2. max 55# dry weight
> 3. two boilers
> 4. thin wall S/S boilers, amply insulated
> 5. high powered boiler element(s)
> 6. brass group
> 7. auto siphon group
> 8. rotary pump w/smallest motor possible
> 9. both boilers PID'd
> 10. plumb or pour over option
> 11. quick release fasteners on all external panels
> 12. compression fittings throughout & plastic (Nylon?) tubing
> 13. full-auto controls
> 14. powder coated exterior panels
>
> Explanations:
> 1. smaller footprint = better fit for home counters (IMHO NS Oscar is too
> large)
> 2. 55# is the most I want to lift (#8 may need to be external)
> 3. better to switch from steam to brew or do both simultaneously (by
having
> high-wattage elements volume may not be an issue)
> 4. I've never figured out the use of copper here - the element is internal
> so there's no conductivity issues & S/S is non-reactive.
> 5. ?? - if it's left on 24/7 no problem, but if not it needs to heat up
> quickly
> 6, 7, & 9. consistent temperature regulation
> 8 & 9. less prone to failure than oscillating pumps & along with #9
> contributes to a quieter machine
> 10. some people don't want to mess with plumbing
> 11. easy on/easy off panels for simplified maintenance
> 12. no soldered or brazed tubes to crack & leak, plus it's much easier to
> repair a plastic tube & compression fitting
> 13. KISS so everyone will want to use it
> 14. I for one am tired of looking at sterile looking S/S machinery. Powder
> coating is tougher than paint.
>
> I could go on but you get the idea. Now if I could just find someone that
> has my dream machine on the shelf already. Oh yeah, the price for this
> machine? I'd be willing to pay $1500 to $2500 for such a machine IF it had
> all of the features listed above.
>
> SIGH
> --
> Robert (Dream big!) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>
>

Date: 12 Feb 2007 14:10:39
From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Ren=E9_van_Sint_Annaland?=
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

In article <45cc3ba0$1@clear.net.nz >, wontwork@dontbother.net says...
> The machine that comes very close to that description was the Reneka Tech=
no.
> No longer in production. Ren=E9 stopped taking orders for them early last
> month if i am not mistaken.
>=20
> Rob vL
> NZ
You are not mistaken.
--=20
Ren=E9 van Sint Annaland
www.justespresso.com

Date: 12 Feb 2007 14:48:04
From: Brent
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Rob, what René meant was that in this instance you were not mistaken, that
doesn't cover those other instances...

:)

Brent

> The machine that comes very close to that description was the Reneka
> Techno.
> No longer in production. René stopped taking orders for them early last
> month if i am not mistaken.
>
> Rob vL
> NZ
You are not mistaken.
--
René van Sint Annaland

Date: 12 Feb 2007 22:08:01
From: RobvL
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Good on ya mate.

:-P

"Brent" <me@privacy.net > wrote in message
news:539vajF1ra915U1@mid.individual.net...
> Rob, what René meant was that in this instance you were not mistaken, that
> doesn't cover those other instances...
>
> :)
>
> Brent
>
>
> > The machine that comes very close to that description was the Reneka
> > Techno.
> > No longer in production. René stopped taking orders for them early last
> > month if i am not mistaken.
> >
> > Rob vL
> > NZ
> You are not mistaken.
> --
> René van Sint Annaland
>
>
>

Date: 09 Feb 2007 00:31:40
From: bkkespresso
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

On Feb 9, 11:13 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com > wrote:
> After the third single-malt whiskey of the evening I tend to start day
> dreaming. First it was about the attractive blond that moved in four houses
> down, then it was about what I need to do this weekend on my 'vette
> restoration project. Both of those were too exhausting to consider for long
> so I decided to make a shot of espresso & sit back and relax. That got me
> thinking about what I DON'T like about my current espresso machines.
>
> Suppose you were given the opportunity to design & manufacture a new
> prosumer 1-group machine from scratch - what would you want in it & what
> materials would you prefer it be made of?
>
> Here's my wish list in no particular order:
> 1. small footprint
> 2. max 55# dry weight
> 3. two boilers
> 4. thin wall S/S boilers, amply insulated
> 5. high powered boiler element(s)
> 6. brass group
> 7. auto siphon group
> 8. rotary pump w/smallest motor possible
> 9. both boilers PID'd
> 10. plumb or pour over option
> 11. quick release fasteners on all external panels
> 12. compression fittings throughout & plastic (Nylon?) tubing
> 13. full-auto controls
> 14. powder coated exterior panels
>
> Explanations:
> 1. smaller footprint = better fit for home counters (IMHO NS Oscar is too
> large)
> 2. 55# is the most I want to lift (#8 may need to be external)
> 3. better to switch from steam to brew or do both simultaneously (by having
> high-wattage elements volume may not be an issue)
> 4. I've never figured out the use of copper here - the element is internal
> so there's no conductivity issues & S/S is non-reactive.
> 5. ?? - if it's left on 24/7 no problem, but if not it needs to heat up
> quickly
> 6, 7, & 9. consistent temperature regulation
> 8 & 9. less prone to failure than oscillating pumps & along with #9
> contributes to a quieter machine
> 10. some people don't want to mess with plumbing
> 11. easy on/easy off panels for simplified maintenance
> 12. no soldered or brazed tubes to crack & leak, plus it's much easier to
> repair a plastic tube & compression fitting
> 13. KISS so everyone will want to use it
> 14. I for one am tired of looking at sterile looking S/S machinery. Powder
> coating is tougher than paint.
>
> I could go on but you get the idea. Now if I could just find someone that
> has my dream machine on the shelf already. Oh yeah, the price for this
> machine? I'd be willing to pay $1500 to $2500 for such a machine IF it had
> all of the features listed above.
>
> SIGH
> --
> Robert (Dream big!) Harmonhttp://tinyurl.com/pou2yhttp://tinyurl.com/psfobhttp://tinyurl.com/fkd6r

may i add no.15
15. Priced under 1000USD ;-)

Date: 09 Feb 2007 12:00:55
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"bkkespresso" wrote in message >>
>
> may i add no.15
> 15. Priced under 1000USD ;-)

may I add no. 16:-
- a small pump circulating water between the brew boiler and the group.
Thermocouple for the PID to be fixed in group - so the temperature
indicated, is what you get.

Bertie

Date: 09 Feb 2007 10:30:15
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

> may I add no. 16:-
> - a small pump circulating water between the brew boiler and the group.
> Thermocouple for the PID to be fixed in group - so the temperature indicated,
> is what you get.

Recirc pumps are common in a lot of buildings and industrial equipment such as
oil to keep compression molded heated to temperature. If you use one, you can
reduce the mass of the group head significantly, and adding grouphead insulation
would be advised. I know of no miniature recirc pumps rated NSF for these
temps. The smallest I know of are the ones used on hydronic heating systems.
110VAC, almost silent, fits inside a 5" cube.

Dan

Date: 09 Feb 2007 23:03:14
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:i4adnfYtZq0XDlHYnZ2dnUVZ_ualnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>> may I add no. 16:-
>> - a small pump circulating water between the brew boiler and the group.
>> Thermocouple for the PID to be fixed in group - so the temperature
>> indicated, is what you get.
>
> Recirc pumps are common in a lot of buildings and industrial equipment
> such as oil to keep compression molded heated to temperature. If you use
> one, you can reduce the mass of the group head significantly, and adding
> grouphead insulation would be advised. I know of no miniature recirc
> pumps rated NSF for these temps. The smallest I know of are the ones used
> on hydronic heating systems. 110VAC, almost silent, fits inside a 5" cube.
>
I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the brew pump
kicks in?

Bertie

Date: 09 Feb 2007 21:54:37
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

> I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the brew pump
> kicks in?

I would, otherwise it would be mixing in the cold, makeup water.

Dan

Date: 10 Feb 2007 04:59:54
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Dan Bollinger wrote:
>> I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the
>> brew pump kicks in?
>
> I would, otherwise it would be mixing in the cold, makeup water.

That's what I thought at first, but since the incoming water is preheated, it
works fine. Running the pump continuously means it doesn't cooling off while
pulling a shot. And that means you can pull shots one after the other with
very accurate temps. The following is a link to a Home-Barista post on the
machine's performance:

http://tinyurl.com/32xl2c

--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 09:34:39
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Dan Bollinger" > wrote in message
>> I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the brew
>> pump kicks in?
>
> I would, otherwise it would be mixing in the cold, makeup water.
> Dan

I was thinking in the hot water line between boiler and group (and back) and
would the 10bar of the brew pump, cause any damage to the circ. Seems not :-

"Andy Schecter wrote in message
>> I don't, mine runs continuously throughout the shot.

>Andy, What pump did you install? Dan

Well done Andy, a circ in a Silv. Not enough space for one of your 5" cubes
Dan. Must be one of those 5watt ones, used in a garden features. I want one
for my Zaff.

Bertie

Date: 09 Feb 2007 18:31:51
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Bertie Doe wrote:
> I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the brew pump
> kicks in?

I don't, mine runs continuously throughout the shot.

--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 12 Feb 2007 09:43:54
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:45cd0453$0$28112$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Bertie Doe wrote:
>> I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the brew
>> pump kicks in?
>
> I don't, mine runs continuously throughout the shot.

> -Andy S.

> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

So the Grundfos and the Ulka are producing 10bar each, which means you've
just invented 'expresso'
Any chance that you'll stick some pics on flickr of the setup?

BD

Date: 12 Feb 2007 06:23:47
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Bertie Doe wrote:
> So the Grundfos and the Ulka are producing 10bar each, which means you've
> just invented 'expresso'

No, the environment the pump runs in ("system pressure") varies from ~3 bar to
~9 bar, but the pressure it produces ("differential pressure") is very low.

> Any chance that you'll stick some pics on flickr of the setup?

When I get a chance. Bear in mind that the machine has to be plumbed in (and
therefore, pressurized) or else the pump will cavitate.

--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 12 Feb 2007 11:47:49
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Andy Schecter" <schecter@remove.me.rochester.rr.com > wrote in message
news:45d04e3f$0$18882$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Bertie Doe wrote:
>> So the Grundfos and the Ulka are producing 10bar each, which means you've
>> just invented 'expresso'
>
> No, the environment the pump runs in ("system pressure") varies from ~3
> bar to ~9 bar, but the pressure it produces ("differential pressure") is
> very low.
>
>> Any chance that you'll stick some pics on flickr of the setup?
>
> When I get a chance. Bear in mind that the machine has to be plumbed in
> (and therefore, pressurized) or else the pump will cavitate.
>
> -Andy S.
>
Thanks for that, all good stuff and fingers X'd that it plumbs in ok

Date: 09 Feb 2007 21:55:30
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

> I don't, mine runs continuously throughout the shot.

Andy, What pump did you install? Dan

Date: 10 Feb 2007 06:34:06
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Dan Bollinger wrote:
> Andy, What pump did you install? Dan

Bell & Gossett NBF-10S/LW
--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 09:37:29
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

> Bell & Gossett NBF-10S/LW

Lead-free brass. While not NSF, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my machine. It
is 5" on a side, too, so not any smaller than your typical hydronic circulator.

Dan

-
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 10:24:32
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Dan Bollinger wrote:
> It is 5" on a side, too, so not any smaller than your typical
> hydronic circulator.

Yup, hangs off the back of the machine.
--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 16:08:28
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

I did a little searching and came up with a smaller hydronic recirculator for
potable water. This one has a volume of 54 cubic inches, while most are about
125 cubic inches.

Grundfos, UP10-16 BN5-LC, 3x3x6", $204, 1/2" FPT, 110VAC with line cord. They
have other versions, slightly longer, that have integral timers and thermostats.

Dan

> Dan Bollinger wrote:
>> It is 5" on a side, too, so not any smaller than your typical hydronic
>> circulator.
>
> Yup, hangs off the back of the machine.
> --
>
>
> -Andy S.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 22:35:56
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Dan Bollinger wrote:
> I did a little searching and came up with a smaller hydronic
> recirculator for potable water. This one has a volume of 54 cubic
> inches, while most are about 125 cubic inches.
>
> Grundfos, UP10-16 BN5-LC, 3x3x6", $204, 1/2" FPT, 110VAC with line
> cord.

Looks nice, a more modern pump than the one I'm using. With NPT fittings!
--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 23:01:56
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote in message
news:RqidnWlBStnTqVPYnZ2dnUVZ_qCmnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>I did a little searching and came up with a smaller hydronic recirculator
>for potable water. This one has a volume of 54 cubic inches, while most
>are about 125 cubic inches.
>
> Grundfos, UP10-16 BN5-LC, 3x3x6", $204, 1/2" FPT, 110VAC with line cord.
> They have other versions, slightly longer, that have integral timers and
> thermostats.

$145 at http://tinyurl.com/35zw95

Date: 11 Feb 2007 12:44:39
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:537178F1r81bnU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote in message
> news:RqidnWlBStnTqVPYnZ2dnUVZ_qCmnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> >I did a little searching and came up with a smaller hydronic recirculator
> >for potable water. This one has a volume of 54 cubic inches, while most
> >are about 125 cubic inches.
> >
> > Grundfos, UP10-16 BN5-LC, 3x3x6", $204, 1/2" FPT, 110VAC with line
cord.
> > They have other versions, slightly longer, that have integral timers and
> > thermostats.
>
> $145 at http://tinyurl.com/35zw95
>
Error: Unable to find site's URL to redirect to.
Please check that the URL entered is correct. To learn more about
TinyURL.com, please visit the homepage.

>
>

Date: 11 Feb 2007 22:02:42
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Johnny" <removethis.huuanito@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:HdLzh.4219$Ys.4113@newsfe10.phx...
>
> "Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com> wrote in message
> news:537178F1r81bnU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote in message
>> news:RqidnWlBStnTqVPYnZ2dnUVZ_qCmnZ2d@insightbb.com...
>> >I did a little searching and came up with a smaller hydronic
>> >recirculator
>> >for potable water. This one has a volume of 54 cubic inches, while most
>> >are about 125 cubic inches.
>> >
>> > Grundfos, UP10-16 BN5-LC, 3x3x6", $204, 1/2" FPT, 110VAC with line
> cord.
>> > They have other versions, slightly longer, that have integral timers
>> > and
>> > thermostats.
>>
>> $145 at http://tinyurl.com/35zw95
>>
> Error: Unable to find site's URL to redirect to.
> Please check that the URL entered is correct. To learn more about
> TinyURL.com, please visit the homepage.
>
>>
Dear Johnny
It works when I click on it. No need for me to visit the homepage.

Bertie

Date: 12 Feb 2007 19:33:22
From: Johnny
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com > wrote in message
news:539i47F1rp18jU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Johnny" <removethis.huuanito@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:HdLzh.4219$Ys.4113@newsfe10.phx...
> >
> > "Bertie Doe" <montebrasite4@ntl.com> wrote in message
> > news:537178F1r81bnU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>
> >> "Dan Bollinger" <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote in message
> >> news:RqidnWlBStnTqVPYnZ2dnUVZ_qCmnZ2d@insightbb.com...
> >> >I did a little searching and came up with a smaller hydronic
> >> >recirculator
> >> >for potable water. This one has a volume of 54 cubic inches, while
most
> >> >are about 125 cubic inches.
> >> >
> >> > Grundfos, UP10-16 BN5-LC, 3x3x6", $204, 1/2" FPT, 110VAC with line
> > cord.
> >> > They have other versions, slightly longer, that have integral timers
> >> > and
> >> > thermostats.
> >>
> >> $145 at http://tinyurl.com/35zw95
> >>
> > Error: Unable to find site's URL to redirect to.
> > Please check that the URL entered is correct. To learn more about
> > TinyURL.com, please visit the homepage.
> >
> >>
> Dear Johnny
> It works when I click on it. No need for me to visit the homepage.
>
> Bertie
>
Dear Bertie,
work for me too now but it didn't when I posted...

Thanks.

Date: 10 Feb 2007 00:25:07
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

"Andy Schecter" wrote in message
> Bertie Doe wrote:
>> I guess you would need to isolate the recirc pump, just before the brew
>> pump kicks in?
>
> I don't, mine runs continuously throughout the shot.
>
> -Andy S.

What machine, full commercial job?

Bertie

Date: 09 Feb 2007 20:26:49
From: Andy Schecter
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Bertie Doe wrote:
> What machine, full commercial job?

Nah, a fully uncommercial Silvia.

--

-Andy S.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/

Date: 09 Feb 2007 10:26:22
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

In article <1171009900.623070.197830@a34g2000cwb.googlegroups.com >,
bkkespresso <theparee@gmail.com > wrote:
> On Feb 9, 11:13 am, "Robert Harmon" <r_h_har...@Zhotmail.com> wrote:

> > Here's my wish list in no particular order:
> > 1. small footprint
> > 2. max 55# dry weight
> > 3. two boilers
> > 4. thin wall S/S boilers, amply insulated
> > 5. high powered boiler element(s)
> > 6. brass group
> > 7. auto siphon group
> > 8. rotary pump w/smallest motor possible
> > 9. both boilers PID'd
> > 10. plumb or pour over option
> > 11. quick release fasteners on all external panels
> > 12. compression fittings throughout & plastic (Nylon?) tubing
> > 13. full-auto controls
> > 14. powder coated exterior panels

(snip explanations)
> > SIGH

> may i add no.15
> 15. Priced under 1000USD ;-)

In your wildest wet-puck dreams have you thought of a single
group one of these, or it's brethren? (Details for the single
group are on the page). They might match quite a number of the
points..

http://www.qualityespresso.net/coffeemachines/visacrem/nera.htm

Wouldn't like to think of a price, (except refurbished items).
You tend to pay in USD what we pay in GBP over this side of the
pond - which means we pay around twice as much...

..but at least we can all drool together, HX, PID's and other
issues of a.c note aside...!

:))

Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/

Date: 10 Feb 2007 16:07:04
From: Danny
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

Bill (Adopt) wrote:

> In your wildest wet-puck dreams have you thought of a single
> group one of these, or it's brethren? (Details for the single
> group are on the page). They might match quite a number of the
> points..
>
> http://www.qualityespresso.net/coffeemachines/visacrem/nera.htm
>
> Wouldn't like to think of a price, (except refurbished items).
> You tend to pay in USD what we pay in GBP over this side of the
> pond - which means we pay around twice as much...
>
> ..but at least we can all drool together, HX, PID's and other
> issues of a.c note aside...!
>

These turn up on Ebay (UK) fairly often.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/EU ordering for Malabar Gold blend)

Date: 11 Feb 2007 10:16:24
From: Bill (Adopt)
Subject: Re: dream machine design...

In article <5368rfF1rdi2cU1@mid.individual.net >,
Danny <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote:
> Bill (Adopt) wrote:

[..]
> > http://www.qualityespresso.net/coffeemachines/visacrem/nera.htm
[..]
> > Wouldn't like to think of a price, (except refurbished items).
> > You tend to pay in USD what we pay in GBP over this side of

> These turn up on Ebay (UK) fairly often.

Thanks, Danny. I'd never actually gone hunting for one
- will now keep an eye open now, along with a less smokey
roaster than the fry-pan just filched from the kitchen
cupboard ..phew.. !;))

:))
Bill ZFC

--
Adoption InterLink UK with -=- http://www.billsimpson.com/
Domain Host Orpheus Internet -=- http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/