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Date: 06 Jul 2007 06:51:40
From: shane
Subject: home machine musings
The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
when I have a party.
So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.

Shane





 
Date: 25 Jul 2007 06:29:10
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 24, 8:23 pm, Paco <P...@CasaForte.org > wrote:
> As an European I find the amount of time dedicated to this issue
> unbelievable. Many of us enjoy our ESPRESSO at home brewed from a
> simple Mocha pot
>
> For shame, if we had only known that we should be spending more time
> considering whether it is an "art" or "craft" instead of just enjoying
> the end result.
>
> I don't know if I can ever enjoy another cup of Mocha prepared
> ESPRESSO again!
>
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
> >> > If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
> >> > then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
> >> > for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>
> >> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>
> >> To respond to your questions:
>
> >> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
> >> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
> >> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
> >> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
> >> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
> >> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
> >> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>
> >> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
> >> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>
> >> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
> >> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>
> >> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
> >> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
> >> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
> >> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>
> >> --
> >> barutansei...@gmail.com
>
> >wow. confrontational.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Mocha pot coffee is not true Espresso.



 
Date: 24 Jul 2007 06:22:25
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
>
> What you do in your yard might approach the level of craft. Most people
> just mow and let the bushes and trees go to hell. I studied bonsai
> under a master and what he did was art (with no need to comment on my
> dead trees). The art involved craft, knowing his tools and the

Slightly off topic, Bonsai? Cool! I have also been doing Bonsai for
the past few years. From what I have observered, killing trees is
part of the learning process :)

Shane





  
Date: 24 Jul 2007 18:49:13
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
shane wrote:
>> What you do in your yard might approach the level of craft. Most people
>> just mow and let the bushes and trees go to hell. I studied bonsai
>> under a master and what he did was art (with no need to comment on my
>> dead trees). The art involved craft, knowing his tools and the
>
> Slightly off topic, Bonsai? Cool! I have also been doing Bonsai for
> the past few years. From what I have observered, killing trees is
> part of the learning process :)
>
> Shane
>
>
>

Things changed in my life and I had to give up bonsai a while ago.
Traveling made it basically impossible to keep plants in small pots
alive. I work a few trees in the ground with no intention of ever
potting them.

R "coffee replaced the bonsai" TF


 
Date: 23 Jul 2007 14:06:28
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 23, 1:27 pm, Moka Java <rtwatc...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> OK, so you've never actually used either a Zassenhaus grinder or a
> Europicola for anything.

What I use the Europiccola for is based on buying it, so, yes, that
would something and not anything. (Unlike the Zassenhaus, which is
correctly said more likely as not to be used anything). But, since I
have studied the Europiccola at length before attempting to buy one,
where you equate that effort as negligible, to actually having the
machine on hand, would be likely based within a presumption I have yet
to assimilate. In other words, I've missed something important while
thoroughly reviewing the machine. A distinction I can see quite
clearly within remarks given to underscore affect.



 
Date: 23 Jul 2007 06:51:04
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 14, 9:12 am, Moka Java <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com > wrote:
> Hey Flashy dude, have you ever used either a Zassenhaus grinder or a
> Europiccolo?


Heh. Haven't a clue on the Zassenhaus, but the Europiccola spent hours
looking them over - reviewers, parts sites, chrome, red, and orange
models. . . deals, deals, and more deals. Guy out of NYC on Amazon
came closest, orange for $300 and change, (been awhile - wouldn't been
more than $400), but felt a little "iffy" about the quality of
merchandise. Had a contention listed against him - one saying this
and that, merchant claiming someone was trying to swap old parts into
a return. Might have come closer to buying it without all the
furballing. Something nice - quality piece of gear. Strikes me as
more prone to be finicky, something that would need be taken care of,
to learn its nuances -- I trusted my instincts and came very close to
bitting on the Europiccola. Found a basic working stiff's Gaggia
right after reading the aforementioned row, though, and that $300-ish
was way out of skew for $700 direct from Italy. No complaints on the
Gaggia, though.

It's wholly a manual operation with the Europiccola, start to finish,
which I realize.



  
Date: 23 Jul 2007 13:27:31
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
OK, so you've never actually used either a Zassenhaus grinder or a
Europicola for anything.

R "yes/no mode" TF


> Heh. Haven't a clue on the Zassenhaus, but the Europiccola spent hours
> looking them over - reviewers, parts sites, chrome, red, and orange
> models. . . deals, deals, and more deals. Guy out of NYC on Amazon
> came closest, orange for $300 and change, (been awhile - wouldn't been
> more than $400), but felt a little "iffy" about the quality of
> merchandise. Had a contention listed against him - one saying this
> and that, merchant claiming someone was trying to swap old parts into
> a return. Might have come closer to buying it without all the
> furballing. Something nice - quality piece of gear. Strikes me as
> more prone to be finicky, something that would need be taken care of,
> to learn its nuances -- I trusted my instincts and came very close to
> bitting on the Europiccola. Found a basic working stiff's Gaggia
> right after reading the aforementioned row, though, and that $300-ish
> was way out of skew for $700 direct from Italy. No complaints on the
> Gaggia, though.
>
> It's wholly a manual operation with the Europiccola, start to finish,
> which I realize.
>


 
Date: 20 Jul 2007 06:11:58
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Scott Sellers <scottsell...@mindspring.com > wrote:
> shane <shane.ol...@juno.com>:
> [...]
>
> >What we seem to have here is the difference between the
> >"science" and "artistic" aspect of creating espresso. Sure a
> >painting is just paint on a canvas, you can teach a chimp to
> >paint, but, try getting a chimp to create a masterpeice....
>
> Not clear which side you're arguing here. I think of a different
> analogy. Say the piano and music had just been discovered. We
> want to enjoy this new discovery. What to do?
>
> In this day of high tech, I suppose we could approach the problem
> by trying to design the perfect player piano, employing PIDs,
> robotics, AI, computer algorithms, etc.
>
> Or, maybe we could sit down, bang out a few notes, and maybe
> learn to play the thing.
>
> Granted, good espresso requires good technology AND good
> technique. But IMO, the extent to which we maintain and
> appreciate the human element, the 'art' side, even at the cost of
> consistency, so much the richer the experience.
>
> cheers,
> Scott S
>
> --
> Scott Sellers


  
Date: 20 Jul 2007 18:27:41
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: home machine musings
shane <shane.olson@juno.com >:
>On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Scott Sellers <scottsell...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> shane <shane.ol...@juno.com>:
>> [...]
>>
>> >What we seem to have here is the difference between the
>> >"science" and "artistic" aspect of creating espresso. Sure a
>> >painting is just paint on a canvas, you can teach a chimp to
>> >paint, but, try getting a chimp to create a masterpeice....
>>
>> Not clear which side you're arguing here. I think of a different
>> analogy. Say the piano and music had just been discovered. We
>> want to enjoy this new discovery. What to do?
>>
>> In this day of high tech, I suppose we could approach the problem
>> by trying to design the perfect player piano, employing PIDs,
>> robotics, AI, computer algorithms, etc.
>>
>> Or, maybe we could sit down, bang out a few notes, and maybe
>> learn to play the thing.
>>
>> Granted, good espresso requires good technology AND good
>> technique. But IMO, the extent to which we maintain and
>> appreciate the human element, the 'art' side, even at the cost of
>> consistency, so much the richer the experience.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Scott S
>>
>> --
>> Scott Sellers


   
Date: 20 Jul 2007 23:10:30
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Making espresso is craft not art. Art can be manifest in wild
expression which will not generally work for creating edible foodstuffs.

R "not counting on a happy accident" TF

Scott Sellers wrote:

> shane <shane.olson@juno.com>:
>
>>On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Scott Sellers <scottsell...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>shane <shane.ol...@juno.com>:
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>
>>>>What we seem to have here is the difference between the
>>>>"science" and "artistic" aspect of creating espresso. Sure a
>>>>painting is just paint on a canvas, you can teach a chimp to
>>>>paint, but, try getting a chimp to create a masterpeice....
>>>
>>>Not clear which side you're arguing here. I think of a different
>>>analogy. Say the piano and music had just been discovered. We
>>>want to enjoy this new discovery. What to do?
>>>
>>>In this day of high tech, I suppose we could approach the problem
>>>by trying to design the perfect player piano, employing PIDs,
>>>robotics, AI, computer algorithms, etc.
>>>
>>>Or, maybe we could sit down, bang out a few notes, and maybe
>>>learn to play the thing.
>>>
>>>Granted, good espresso requires good technology AND good
>>>technique. But IMO, the extent to which we maintain and
>>>appreciate the human element, the 'art' side, even at the cost of
>>>consistency, so much the richer the experience.
>>>
>>>cheers,
>>>Scott S
>>>
>>>--
>>>Scott Sellers


    
Date: 22 Jul 2007 18:00:54
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Quoth Moka Java <watchesrt-acmudged@yahoo.com >:


     
Date: 23 Jul 2007 13:25:20
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Donn Cave wrote:
> Quoth Moka Java <watchesrt-acmudged@yahoo.com>:
>


      
Date: 24 Jul 2007 05:33:36
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@yahoo.com >:
...


    
Date: 21 Jul 2007 09:18:59
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Moka Java wrote:
> Making espresso is craft not art. Art can be manifest in wild
> expression which will not generally work for creating edible foodstuffs.
>
> R "not counting on a happy accident" TF
>
Excellent point


 
Date: 19 Jul 2007 06:21:02
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 18, 2:30 pm, Moka Java <rtwatc...@yahoo.com > wrote:
> I'm not at all clear on what you found so obvious, please explain. All
> I have is more questions.
>
> Do you think you'd like Barutan's espresso?
>
> Is that the level of quality and consistency you strive for?
>
> R "but I'm like that" TF
>
>
>
> Harry Ipema wrote:
> > No, what is "confrontational" is the usual dogmatic responses to
> > serious questions.
>
> > All the praise to Barutan Seijin for stating the obvious so elegantly.
> > I loved it!
>
> > On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebo...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
> >>>> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
> >>>> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
> >>>> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
> >>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>
> >>> To respond to your questions:
>
> >>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
> >>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
> >>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
> >>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
> >>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
> >>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
> >>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>
> >>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
> >>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>
> >>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
> >>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>
> >>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
> >>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
> >>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
> >>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>
> >>> --
> >>> barutansei...@gmail.com
> >> wow. confrontational.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What we seem to have here is the difference between the "science" and
"artistic" aspect of creating espresso.
Sure a painting is just paint on a canvas, you can teach a chimp to
paint, but, try getting a chimp to create a masterpeice....

I am willis to even give Barutan the benefit of doubt and say he might
have "the gift" and be able to create good espresso using the most
basic of tools. It is technically possible to use a Zass mill as a
grinder. I used an hand grinder for espresso for a long time, it
worked well. A big reason for retiring it? The burrs were getting
dull.

Shane




  
Date: 19 Jul 2007 19:35:12
From: Scott Sellers
Subject: Re: home machine musings
shane <shane.olson@juno.com >:
[...]

>What we seem to have here is the difference between the
>"science" and "artistic" aspect of creating espresso. Sure a
>painting is just paint on a canvas, you can teach a chimp to
>paint, but, try getting a chimp to create a masterpeice....

Not clear which side you're arguing here. I think of a different
analogy. Say the piano and music had just been discovered. We
want to enjoy this new discovery. What to do?

In this day of high tech, I suppose we could approach the problem
by trying to design the perfect player piano, employing PIDs,
robotics, AI, computer algorithms, etc.

Or, maybe we could sit down, bang out a few notes, and maybe
learn to play the thing.

Granted, good espresso requires good technology AND good
technique. But IMO, the extent to which we maintain and
appreciate the human element, the 'art' side, even at the cost of
consistency, so much the richer the experience.

cheers,
Scott S

--
Scott Sellers


 
Date: 18 Jul 2007 14:08:20
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Am 18 Jul 2007, Ken Wilson schrieb:

> I am interested in that one doesn't entertain at home in Japan - is
> that just meals or the whole "come round for a cuppa tea or a drink
> bit"?

Mostly meals. One does have neighbours over for tea or maybe even
something harder. One might even eat with a neighbour or two from time
to time. Still, it's nowhere near as common as it is in the West, and
even next door neighbours might choose a local watering hole over
drinking at either's home.

The constraints are space and time. There just isn't enough room in
urban kitchens and dining areas. The other problem is time. Many
Japanese (males especially) return home well after dinner hours after
long commutes. For that reason, it's generally more convenient to meet
people after work in bars or restaurants in the city centre.

Socialising takes a more different form in the countryside where homes
are larger and where people don't commute. There are also regional
differences. People in Osaka are more open, at least on the surface.

> Incidentally - even with a poncy steam-as-you-whistle-as- you- pour type
> machine I avoid, if possible, doing a round of espresso drinks after a meal
> but tend to use a napolitain (or a Cona if I'm more sober) and do refills
> with a caftetiere because I have people round to talk to them not faff
> around in the kitchen.

Me too.

--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


 
Date: 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10
From: lockjaw
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com > wrote:
> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
> > If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
> > then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
> > for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>
> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>
> To respond to your questions:
>
> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>
> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>
> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>
> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>
> --
> barutansei...@gmail.com

wow. confrontational.



  
Date: 24 Jul 2007 20:23:30
From: Paco
Subject: Re: home machine musings
As an European I find the amount of time dedicated to this issue
unbelievable. Many of us enjoy our ESPRESSO at home brewed from a
simple Mocha pot

For shame, if we had only known that we should be spending more time
considering whether it is an "art" or "craft" instead of just enjoying
the end result.

I don't know if I can ever enjoy another cup of Mocha prepared
ESPRESSO again!




On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com >
wrote:

>On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>
>> > If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>> > then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>> > for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>>
>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>>
>> To respond to your questions:
>>
>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>
>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>
>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>
>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>
>> --
>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>
>wow. confrontational.


   
Date: 24 Jul 2007 22:46:38
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
If you want to call moka pot coffee "espresso" you can. I can call a
pig a fish but it won't live very long under water. But seriously, if
you don't like the conversation here, don't read it. And if the
comments here affect you that deeply you really should seek professional
help.

R "wondering if I'm expected to bow down to a Europeon" TF

Paco wrote:
> As an European I find the amount of time dedicated to this issue
> unbelievable. Many of us enjoy our ESPRESSO at home brewed from a
> simple Mocha pot
>
> For shame, if we had only known that we should be spending more time
> considering whether it is an "art" or "craft" instead of just enjoying
> the end result.
>
> I don't know if I can ever enjoy another cup of Mocha prepared
> ESPRESSO again!
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>>
>>>> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>>>> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>>>> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>>>
>>> To respond to your questions:
>>>
>>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>>
>>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>>
>>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>>
>>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>> wow. confrontational.


    
Date: 25 Jul 2007 18:40:44
From: Paco
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Another typical response from the USAIH -- The United States of
Arrogance, Ignorance and Hypocrisy! Molto grazie, you've confirmed
two of the three while I have no doubt that in time you'll live up, or
is it down, to the last one as well.

To echo the shallow comments in your retail environments "Have a nice
day!"


On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:46:38 -0400, Moka Java
<rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote:

>If you want to call moka pot coffee "espresso" you can. I can call a
>pig a fish but it won't live very long under water. But seriously, if
>you don't like the conversation here, don't read it. And if the
>comments here affect you that deeply you really should seek professional
>help.
>
>R "wondering if I'm expected to bow down to a Europeon" TF
>
>Paco wrote:
>> As an European I find the amount of time dedicated to this issue
>> unbelievable. Many of us enjoy our ESPRESSO at home brewed from a
>> simple Mocha pot
>>
>> For shame, if we had only known that we should be spending more time
>> considering whether it is an "art" or "craft" instead of just enjoying
>> the end result.
>>
>> I don't know if I can ever enjoy another cup of Mocha prepared
>> ESPRESSO again!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>>>>> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>>>>> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>>>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>>>>
>>>> To respond to your questions:
>>>>
>>>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>>>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>>>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>>>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>>>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>>>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>>>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>>>
>>>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>>>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>>>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>>>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>>>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>>>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>>> wow. confrontational.


     
Date: 25 Jul 2007 19:00:56
From: Crabman
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Paco wrote:
> Another typical response from the USAIH -- The United States of
> Arrogance, Ignorance and Hypocrisy! Molto grazie, you've confirmed

>>>>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>>>> wow. confrontational.

Siete benvenuti. You have confirmed that Europe has Trolls as well.
Evidently Italians.

Clay


      
Date: 25 Jul 2007 18:22:14
From: Paco
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Actually, for the record I'm an expat, and glad to be. living in
Europe; an old but enlightened environment!

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:00:56 -0400, Crabman <crabman@dud.net > wrote:

>Paco wrote:
>> Another typical response from the USAIH -- The United States of
>> Arrogance, Ignorance and Hypocrisy! Molto grazie, you've confirmed
>
>>>>>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>>>>> wow. confrontational.
>
>Siete benvenuti. You have confirmed that Europe has Trolls as well.
>Evidently Italians.
>
>Clay


     
Date: 25 Jul 2007 16:01:24
From: North Sullivan
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:40:44 GMT, Paco <Paco@CasaForte.org > wrote:

>Another typical response from the USAIH -- The United States of
>Arrogance, Ignorance and Hypocrisy! Molto grazie, you've confirmed
>two of the three while I have no doubt that in time you'll live up, or
>is it down, to the last one as well.
>
>To echo the shallow comments in your retail environments "Have a nice
>day!"

Hey Paco,

Are you suggesting that there is no distinction between the "espresso"
made from your mocha pot and espresso made from an espresso machine?
I don't think anyone is suggesting that coffee properly made in a
mocha pot isn't enjoyable, but it's definitely a different beverage
than properly made espresso.

My feelings get hurt when Americans are called arrogant and ignorant.

North Sullivan
(humbly waiting for enlightenment)



      
Date: 25 Jul 2007 18:32:01
From: Paco
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Not at all. I was simply responding to the over-emphasis on "art" and
"craft" rather than just enjoying the moment. In addition, I was
drawn into making a comment because of the judgements made by some,
which is all too common, about another's choice in making expresso.

As an expat living in Europe I enjoy a properly made expresso but can
also enjoy a mocha pot prepared coffee as well.

My comments are a direct challenge to the dogmatic views and the sense
of exceptionalism by those making those comments.

I continue to stand by my comments about US citizens who all to often
fail to realize Canadians, Mexicans and those living in Central and
South America are "Americans" as well.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:01:24 -0500, North Sullivan
<northwrites@bluebottle.com > wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:40:44 GMT, Paco <Paco@CasaForte.org> wrote:
>
>>Another typical response from the USAIH -- The United States of
>>Arrogance, Ignorance and Hypocrisy! Molto grazie, you've confirmed
>>two of the three while I have no doubt that in time you'll live up, or
>>is it down, to the last one as well.
>>
>>To echo the shallow comments in your retail environments "Have a nice
>>day!"
>
>Hey Paco,
>
>Are you suggesting that there is no distinction between the "espresso"
>made from your mocha pot and espresso made from an espresso machine?
>I don't think anyone is suggesting that coffee properly made in a
>mocha pot isn't enjoyable, but it's definitely a different beverage
>than properly made espresso.
>
>My feelings get hurt when Americans are called arrogant and ignorant.
>
>North Sullivan
>(humbly waiting for enlightenment)


       
Date: 25 Jul 2007 23:57:51
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:32:01 -0500, Paco <Paco@CasaForte.org > wrote:

>I continue to stand by my comments about US citizens who all to often
>fail to realize Canadians, Mexicans and those living in Central and
>South America are "Americans" as well.

My wife and I spend about two months a year in Europe: France, the UK, Germany,
Austria, the Netherlands, etc. We've been doing this for over 15 years. In that
entire time, we have yet to hear a single European refer to citizens of the USA
as anything other than "Americans." And we have yet to hear a single European
refer to a citizen of any other North or South American country as an
"American."

Your comments seem to be based on your own ignorance and ill-concealed
resentment of your fellow or former fellow American citizens.

-- Larry


        
Date: 26 Jul 2007 06:29:37
From: Paco
Subject: Re: home machine musings
I suspect you wouldn't if you only spent time in McDonalds.

Before you call someone "ignorant" you might spend a little time
reading the post -- "US citizens who all to often
fail to realize Canadians, Mexicans and those living in Central and
South America are "Americans" as well".

But what can you expect from the USAIH


On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:57:51 -0400, pltrgyst
<pltrgyst@spamlessxhost.org > wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:32:01 -0500, Paco <Paco@CasaForte.org> wrote:
>
>>I continue to stand by my comments about US citizens who all to often
>>fail to realize Canadians, Mexicans and those living in Central and
>>South America are "Americans" as well.
>
>My wife and I spend about two months a year in Europe: France, the UK, Germany,
>Austria, the Netherlands, etc. We've been doing this for over 15 years. In that
>entire time, we have yet to hear a single European refer to citizens of the USA
>as anything other than "Americans." And we have yet to hear a single European
>refer to a citizen of any other North or South American country as an
>"American."
>
>Your comments seem to be based on your own ignorance and ill-concealed
>resentment of your fellow or former fellow American citizens.
>
>-- Larry


         
Date: 26 Jul 2007 10:54:54
From: pltrgyst
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 06:29:37 -0500, Paco <Paco@CasaForte.org > wrote:

>I suspect you wouldn't if you only spent time in McDonalds.
>
>Before you call someone "ignorant" you might spend a little time
>reading the post -- "US citizens who all to often
>fail to realize Canadians, Mexicans and those living in Central and
>South America are "Americans" as well".
>
>But what can you expect from the USAIH

You're a really stupid twat, Paco. And now you're also history... {plonk}

-- Larry


     
Date: 25 Jul 2007 16:54:45
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
I apologize. You're 100% right. I am wrong, an asshole. Sorry to have
bothered you.

R "plonk" TF

Paco wrote:
> Another typical response from the USAIH -- The United States of
> Arrogance, Ignorance and Hypocrisy! Molto grazie, you've confirmed
> two of the three while I have no doubt that in time you'll live up, or
> is it down, to the last one as well.
>
> To echo the shallow comments in your retail environments "Have a nice
> day!"
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 22:46:38 -0400, Moka Java
> <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> If you want to call moka pot coffee "espresso" you can. I can call a
>> pig a fish but it won't live very long under water. But seriously, if
>> you don't like the conversation here, don't read it. And if the
>> comments here affect you that deeply you really should seek professional
>> help.
>>
>> R "wondering if I'm expected to bow down to a Europeon" TF
>>
>> Paco wrote:
>>> As an European I find the amount of time dedicated to this issue
>>> unbelievable. Many of us enjoy our ESPRESSO at home brewed from a
>>> simple Mocha pot
>>>
>>> For shame, if we had only known that we should be spending more time
>>> considering whether it is an "art" or "craft" instead of just enjoying
>>> the end result.
>>>
>>> I don't know if I can ever enjoy another cup of Mocha prepared
>>> ESPRESSO again!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>>>>>> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>>>>>> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>>>>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>>>>>
>>>>> To respond to your questions:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>>>>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>>>>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>>>>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>>>>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>>>>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>>>>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>>>>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>>>>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>>>>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>>>>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>>>>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>>>> wow. confrontational.


  
Date: 17 Jul 2007 19:25:25
From: Harry Ipema
Subject: Re: home machine musings
No, what is "confrontational" is the usual dogmatic responses to
serious questions.

All the praise to Barutan Seijin for stating the obvious so elegantly.
I loved it!

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com >
wrote:

>On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>
>> > If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>> > then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>> > for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>>
>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>>
>> To respond to your questions:
>>
>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>
>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>
>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>
>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>
>> --
>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>
>wow. confrontational.


   
Date: 18 Jul 2007 15:30:25
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
I'm not at all clear on what you found so obvious, please explain. All
I have is more questions.

Do you think you'd like Barutan's espresso?

Is that the level of quality and consistency you strive for?

R "but I'm like that" TF

Harry Ipema wrote:
> No, what is "confrontational" is the usual dogmatic responses to
> serious questions.
>
> All the praise to Barutan Seijin for stating the obvious so elegantly.
> I loved it!
>
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:35:10 -0700, lockjaw <davebobbl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>>
>>>> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>>>> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>>>> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>>> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.
>>>
>>> To respond to your questions:
>>>
>>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>>
>>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>>
>>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>>
>>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>> wow. confrontational.


 
Date: 12 Jul 2007 19:40:18
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com > wrote:
>
> To respond to your questions:
>
> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>
> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>
> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>
> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>
> --
> barutansei...@gmail.com

Before not dialing in anything, (measuring or timing shots), fresh
roasted green coffee is the first and most important as the easiest
way, to get good coffee taste --- stale vacuum packages sitting on
grocery shelves for weeks and months cannot, and do not, compare.

If you have an Europiccola, you have a machine to make good espresso.

The grinder is a degree of fine ground coffee. If you have fine
ground you have good coffee. If you do not have a degree to grind
within finest, but yet you still have a fine grind, you have good
coffee. The degree of fineness in a better grinder is in addition and
extra: To such a degree of coffee roasted 3 days ago, or the degree
of coffee roasted 3 weeks ago; or a degree of African coffee apart
from a degree of Latin American coffee. All are degrees of fineness
among the better of fine.

Degree is also how hard and long you pull on the Europiccola lever and
the water temperature.

Degree is perfect.

The reason they say this or that about coffee, to say that this best
of all, is because some do judge coffee. On the bag of coffee you
buy, yes, some -around here- can say that much. And that is because
of a reason and degree of fineness - that the espresso machine is so
fine, for the grinder to be just so fine, in order that the coffee
will be as resultingly fine. Such that, no one is making mistake for
a degree of fine to be no less than as pure and true as is possible.

Good and very good coffee are also fine coffees for many. Fine
needn't necessarily be perfect coffee to enjoy and understand what
close to perfect really is.

--
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading. -
Lao Tzu



  
Date: 14 Jul 2007 09:12:16
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Hey Flashy dude, have you ever used either a Zassenhaus grinder or a
Europiccolo?

R "yes I have" TF

Flasherly wrote:
> On Jul 12, 5:06 pm, Barutan Seijin <barutansei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> To respond to your questions:
>>
>> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
>> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
>> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
>> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
>> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
>> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
>> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.
>>
>> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
>> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.
>>
>> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
>> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.
>>
>> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
>> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
>> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
>> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>>
>> --
>> barutansei...@gmail.com
>
> Before not dialing in anything, (measuring or timing shots), fresh
> roasted green coffee is the first and most important as the easiest
> way, to get good coffee taste --- stale vacuum packages sitting on
> grocery shelves for weeks and months cannot, and do not, compare.
>
> If you have an Europiccola, you have a machine to make good espresso.
>
> The grinder is a degree of fine ground coffee. If you have fine
> ground you have good coffee. If you do not have a degree to grind
> within finest, but yet you still have a fine grind, you have good
> coffee. The degree of fineness in a better grinder is in addition and
> extra: To such a degree of coffee roasted 3 days ago, or the degree
> of coffee roasted 3 weeks ago; or a degree of African coffee apart
> from a degree of Latin American coffee. All are degrees of fineness
> among the better of fine.
>
> Degree is also how hard and long you pull on the Europiccola lever and
> the water temperature.
>
> Degree is perfect.
>
> The reason they say this or that about coffee, to say that this best
> of all, is because some do judge coffee. On the bag of coffee you
> buy, yes, some -around here- can say that much. And that is because
> of a reason and degree of fineness - that the espresso machine is so
> fine, for the grinder to be just so fine, in order that the coffee
> will be as resultingly fine. Such that, no one is making mistake for
> a degree of fine to be no less than as pure and true as is possible.
>
> Good and very good coffee are also fine coffees for many. Fine
> needn't necessarily be perfect coffee to enjoy and understand what
> close to perfect really is.
>
> --
> If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading. -
> Lao Tzu
>


 
Date: 12 Jul 2007 21:06:22
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:


> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.

Thank you for your generosity of spirit.

To respond to your questions:

I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.

The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.

I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.

In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
differences in life situations and cooking philosophies. I'm not going
to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.

--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


  
Date: 18 Jul 2007 12:49:24
From: Ken Wilson
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Strewth - you cheapskate noncomformist.

How dare you question the "must be a mazzer and a PID'd 6 litre boiler
machine before you are allowed to call it espresso" philosophy.

Don't tell me - you can even make coffee in a cracked, stained old jug?.

ken :-)

(who used to make a point of waving this flag a few years ago - even
reminding people that they could make far better coffee than average using a
jug and tea strainer if they did it properly, that I don't know what 2cc
looks like and have never used scales and certainly don't use a stopwatch.)

I am interested in that one doesn't entertain at home in Japan - is that
just meals or the whole "come round for a cuppa tea or a drink bit"?

Incidentally - even with a poncy steam-as-you-whistle-as- you- pour type
machine I avoid, if possible, doing a round of espresso drinks after a meal
but tend to use a napolitain (or a Cona if I'm more sober) and do refills
with a caftetiere because I have people round to talk to them not faff
around in the kitchen.

k

"Barutan Seijin"
> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
> at home.

> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.




  
Date: 13 Jul 2007 06:56:58
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Barutan Seijin wrote:
> Am 11 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
>
>> If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
>> then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
>> for espresso and recommending it is bad advice.
>
> Thank you for your generosity of spirit.

Your welcome. I apologize for being harsh.

>
> To respond to your questions:
>
> I don't do espresso or coffee or probably much of anything the way you
> do. I don't "dial in" anything, at least not in the way the phrase is
> used around here. I don't put a stopwatch to anything, not my grinding
> or my shots. On top of that, in Japan, one simply does not entertain
> at home. (That's where i lived when i used the deadly combination of
> a Zassenhaus grinder and Europapiccola). All of this made most of your
> criteria more or less irrelevant to my experience.

Absolutely correct.

When I started making espresso at home, around 1992 0r 93, I lusted
after a Europiccola but at $600 it was out of the budget. I already had
a Zassenhaus grinder and bought a Krups thermoblock machine for about
$200. I soon determined that the Zassenhaus grinder was not going to
work for me. I wasn't sure why, but I couldn't get the Krups to work
with it. I bought a small Melitta burr grinder that screamed like a
stone cutter and produced enough dust to choke a filter cone. Somehow I
was able to produce a dark liquid that, when mixed with a prodigious
amount of frothed milk, tasted better to me than the stuff from
Starbucks and most of the restaurants and cafes I went to. I did not
like straight espresso and found it undrinkable.

Then, around 1999 or so, the Krups was looking a little tired and I
decided to upgrade. I thought I wanted a superauto. In my research
I found a.c and ended up with a Silvia and a Rocky. The Silvia soon had
a PID controller and the Rocky was replaced by a Mazzer. Straight
espresso tasted good.

I now have an HX machine and consistent quality of straight espresso is
more of a challenge but the continuous steam is worth it for me. I have
a count up timer in the kitchen but rarely use it for espresso.
Generally I just glance at the wall clock. I don't time every shot,
mostly I brew by sight and taste. If the espresso doesn't look or taste
right I'll make adjustments.
>
> The wandering adjustment issue has been discussed here more than once.
> You could search google for it, but why bother? Your mind is made up.

I've been reading and posting here long enough to be familiar with it.

>
> I'd be tempted to concede the argument to you on the basis of current
> Zassenhaus unavailability, but the Ebay FUD stops me.

What is FUD?

>
> In any case, i think our disagreement boils down to fundamental
> differences in life situations and cooking philosophies.

I find that very interesting. What is your cooking philosophy? I'm
process oriented and result driven. IOW, I don't mind working to get a
result I like.

I'm not going
> to do things your way; i simply wouldn't enjoy coffee that way.
> Likewise, i doubt if you could abide by my style. So be it.
>

R "I don't know because I haven't tried your style" TF


   
Date: 14 Jul 2007 05:08:28
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com >:


 
Date: 11 Jul 2007 03:23:08
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Am 8 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:

Barutan Seijin wrote:
> Am 7 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>
>> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
>> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>
>
>> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>
>
> Sure have.
>
> How long does it take you to grind a shot?

Not that long. If you use a hand grinder for a while, you either get
fast or stop using it. To be sure, an electric grinder is much faster
and easier. There are trade offs on either side of the question.

How much counter space does your WhizzBang454 take up? Will it provoke
a domestic dispute? Will you be able to grind coffee without waking up
the baby? How easy is it to take the WhizzBang out to the porch to
grind at 5:00am?


--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


  
Date: 11 Jul 2007 08:44:42
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Barutan Seijin wrote:
> Am 8 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>> Am 7 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>>
>> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>>
>>> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
>>> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>>
>>> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>>
>> Sure have.
>>
>> How long does it take you to grind a shot?
>
> Not that long. If you use a hand grinder for a while, you either get
> fast or stop using it.

I use a Zassnehaus for press pot, about 30 secs for enough medium grind
for a 3 tasse pot.

To be sure, an electric grinder is much faster
> and easier. There are trade offs on either side of the question.

Yep. But you snipped my questions w/o answering them.

>
> How much counter space does your WhizzBang454 take up?

I've never heard of a WhizzzBang454. I have a Mazzer Mini. Footprint
is about 6" x 10". Counter space is not an issue for me and it's a nice
piece of kitchen sculpture. The Mazzer Mini is generally considered an
excellent choice for home espresso. Many people who post here have the
Mini or one of its larger siblings. My only complaints about the Mazzer
is that it's a bit messy and wastes a couple of grams of coffee for each
brewing session. After using the thing for almost 7 years I've been
able to minimize these problems.

Will it provoke
> a domestic dispute?

Never has. Girlfriends and guests generally like espresso and cappuccino.

Will you be able to grind coffee without waking up
> the baby?

No baby here but the Mazzer is pretty quiet as coffee grinders go,
almost silent w/o beans. The Zassenhaus isn't exactly quiet, louder
than the Mazzer when empty and the mere act of grinding the beans makes
noise. The Mazzer grinds a double shot in about 12 - 15 secs. How long
did you say it takes to grind a shot? And how many shots do you waste
or wince through until you get a good one? At any rate, the expresso
machine pump is much louder than either the Mazzer or the Zassenhaus so
unless you have a rotary pump, a lever machine or a steam toy the baby
is going to be disturbed.

How easy is it to take the WhizzBang out to the porch to
> grind at 5:00am?
>
>
Again, I don't know what a WhizzBang is. The Mazzer grinds a shot
faster that it would take me to get in and out of the house so what's
the point?

If the Zassenhaus works for you and you're satisfied with your results
then I'm happy for you. From my experience a Zassenhaus does not work
for espresso and recommending it is bad advice. I ask you again:

How long does it take you to grind a shot?

How do you deal with the adjustment shift while grinding?

How many shots does it take to dial in a 2 oz. double in 25 secs (or you
choice of time and volume)?

Have you ever pulled 2 consecutive shots that gave you the same volume
in the same time?

If you have guests over is the evening entertainment watching you grind?

Where can you buy a new Zassenhaus grinder?

If you buy a used Zassenhaus grinder on Ebay can you be sure that the
seller's kid didn't grind a batch of cat litter with it?

R "just looking for the facts" TF


 
Date: 09 Jul 2007 06:38:13
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 8, 6:08 am, Moka Java <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com > wrote:
> shane wrote:
> > On Jul 7, 3:22 pm, Moka Java <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>
> >>> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
> >>> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
> >> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>
> >> R "don't get me started" TF
>
> > I have not used an actual Zassenhaus, I did use an antique hand
> > grinder until I bought a Virtuoso and then two months later a Mazzer
> > mini. The Mini works well for espresso. The Virtuoso is now in my
> > office at work, I use if for French press and drip.
>
> > One of these day I may have to find an opportunity to lug my Mini and
> > fresh ground beans to chirch and see what I can do on the Cimbali.
>
> > Shane
>
> So if I understand you correctly the church bought a 2 group Cimbali but
> no grinder. Pods?
>
> R "time to take up a collection" TF- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

They have a grinder too an Anfim? Anfmil? I can't recall the
spelling. I am not sure how to adjust it and the beans it is filled
with are average Starbucks quality. Dark roasted espresso beans from
a local roaster. I know how to adjust my grinder and I would bring
freshly roasted beans.

Shane



 
Date: 07 Jul 2007 21:50:43
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 7, 3:22 pm, Moka Java <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com > wrote:
> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>
> > One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
> > Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>
> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>
> R "don't get me started" TF

I have not used an actual Zassenhaus, I did use an antique hand
grinder until I bought a Virtuoso and then two months later a Mazzer
mini. The Mini works well for espresso. The Virtuoso is now in my
office at work, I use if for French press and drip.

One of these day I may have to find an opportunity to lug my Mini and
fresh ground beans to chirch and see what I can do on the Cimbali.

Shane



  
Date: 08 Jul 2007 07:08:20
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
shane wrote:
> On Jul 7, 3:22 pm, Moka Java <rtwatc...@fishyahoo.com> wrote:
>> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>>
>>> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
>>> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>>
>> R "don't get me started" TF
>
> I have not used an actual Zassenhaus, I did use an antique hand
> grinder until I bought a Virtuoso and then two months later a Mazzer
> mini. The Mini works well for espresso. The Virtuoso is now in my
> office at work, I use if for French press and drip.
>
> One of these day I may have to find an opportunity to lug my Mini and
> fresh ground beans to chirch and see what I can do on the Cimbali.
>
> Shane
>

So if I understand you correctly the church bought a 2 group Cimbali but
no grinder. Pods?

R "time to take up a collection" TF


 
Date: 08 Jul 2007 03:40:34
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: home machine musings

Am 7 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:

Barutan Seijin wrote:

>
> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
>Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.


> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?


Sure have.

--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


  
Date: 08 Jul 2007 07:04:12
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Barutan Seijin wrote:
> Am 7 Jul 2007, Moka Java schrieb:
>
> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>
>> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
>> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>
>
>> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>
>
> Sure have.
>
How long does it take you to grind a shot?

How do you deal with the adjustment shift while grinding?

How many shots does it take to dial in a 2 oz. double in 25 secs (or you
choice of time and volume)?

Have you ever pulled 2 consecutive shots that gave you the same volume
in the same time?

If you have guests over is the evening entertainment watching you grind?

Where can you buy a new Zassenhaus grinder?

If you buy a used Zassenhaus grinder on Ebay can you be sure that the
seller's kid didn't grind a batch of cat litter with it?

R "and to really nail espresso quality and consistency pair the
Zassenhaus with a Europicola" TF


   
Date: 08 Jul 2007 18:53:02
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com >:
...


    
Date: 08 Jul 2007 20:43:39
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Donn Cave wrote:
> Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com>:
> ...
>


     
Date: 09 Jul 2007 04:53:55
From: Donn Cave
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com >:
...


      
Date: 09 Jul 2007 10:54:01
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Donn Cave wrote:
> Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com>:
> ...
>


       
Date: 10 Jul 2007 10:11:53
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: home machine musings
The bicycle analogy is apt. But I not from NY to LA - call it say a 10 mile
commute. Some people would (and do) glady commute to work say 10 miles each
day on a bicycle. Others (me) wouldn't even begin to consider such a daily
commute on a regular basis.

Likewise, some people consider a few minutes of cranking a Zass to be
envigorating exercise and not outside the pale. When I see a Zass I think
immediately of my cordless drill. I'm definitely on the "power equipment"
end of the spectrum personally when it comes to grinding (though I prefer
manual brewing methods such as Melitta over autodrip machines most of the
time). BUT, I recognize that each person has his own tolerance level for
such things.



"Moka Java" <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5ff0lfF3bovg3U1@mid.individual.net...
> Donn Cave wrote:
>> Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com>:
>> ...
>>


        
Date: 10 Jul 2007 10:41:33
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Even if you could deal with the time and sore arms from all that
cranking the Zassenhaus has no range of adjustment to dial in a shot.
But to make matters worse, the adjustment shifts to a coarser grind.
The Zassenhaus just wasn't designed to grind that fine. Attaching a
drill or electric screwdriver to a Turkish mill might work if you could
get an acceptably coarse grind from it.

R "the Mazzer Mini works great" TF

Jack Denver wrote:
> The bicycle analogy is apt. But I not from NY to LA - call it say a 10 mile
> commute. Some people would (and do) glady commute to work say 10 miles each
> day on a bicycle. Others (me) wouldn't even begin to consider such a daily
> commute on a regular basis.
>
> Likewise, some people consider a few minutes of cranking a Zass to be
> envigorating exercise and not outside the pale. When I see a Zass I think
> immediately of my cordless drill. I'm definitely on the "power equipment"
> end of the spectrum personally when it comes to grinding (though I prefer
> manual brewing methods such as Melitta over autodrip machines most of the
> time). BUT, I recognize that each person has his own tolerance level for
> such things.
>
>
>
> "Moka Java" <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:5ff0lfF3bovg3U1@mid.individual.net...
>> Donn Cave wrote:
>>> Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com>:
>>> ...
>>>


         
Date: 10 Jul 2007 11:46:51
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Once between electric grinders I did just that and it worked acceptably if
not fantastically - the Turkish mill had it's adjustment with a very stiff
bolt that required a wrench so it did not drift. OTOH, the burrs were not
exactly "precision". Actually I think it worked best with fine grinds as
that is what is was designed for. The cone burr just floats loosely inside
the stationary burr without more than a rudimentary bearing (the point of
the adjustment screw) but at fine grinds there is not much room for wobble.


I just got back from Greece where I had lots of not particularly good Greek
(aka Turkish) coffee (nice to see though there is a place where the
Starbuckification of the world is not yet complete - they do have them but
not everywhere and lots of the "Greek coffee" is now prepared using hot
water from the wand of espresso machines, but at home everyone seems to use
a briki, a camping gaz burner (the stove burner is too big) and some
indifferent pre-ground coffee, but at least it has some local color. I did
pass one small shop roaster in a provincial city but it was Sunday and they
were closed.)

I came back with a stainless "briki" (which is what they mostly use
nowadays - the brass ones are for tourists to buy as souvenirs) and so I'll
have to drag the "Turkish" grinder out of storage and see what I can come up
with at home.



"Moka Java" <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5fhka8F3bkistU1@mid.individual.net...
> Even if you could deal with the time and sore arms from all that cranking
> the Zassenhaus has no range of adjustment to dial in a shot. But to make
> matters worse, the adjustment shifts to a coarser grind. The Zassenhaus
> just wasn't designed to grind that fine. Attaching a drill or electric
> screwdriver to a Turkish mill might work if you could get an acceptably
> coarse grind from it.
>
> R "the Mazzer Mini works great" TF
>
> Jack Denver wrote:
>> The bicycle analogy is apt. But I not from NY to LA - call it say a 10
>> mile commute. Some people would (and do) glady commute to work say 10
>> miles each day on a bicycle. Others (me) wouldn't even begin to consider
>> such a daily commute on a regular basis.
>>
>> Likewise, some people consider a few minutes of cranking a Zass to be
>> envigorating exercise and not outside the pale. When I see a Zass I
>> think immediately of my cordless drill. I'm definitely on the "power
>> equipment" end of the spectrum personally when it comes to grinding
>> (though I prefer manual brewing methods such as Melitta over autodrip
>> machines most of the time). BUT, I recognize that each person has his own
>> tolerance level for such things.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Moka Java" <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:5ff0lfF3bovg3U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Donn Cave wrote:
>>>> Quoth Moka Java <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com>:
>>>> ...
>>>>


          
Date: 10 Jul 2007 13:21:53
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Looking at the burrs in a Turkish mill it would seem that the wider you
go the more inconsistent the grind will be. Brewing in a brika doesn't
demand a particularly consistent grind so precision is not important
there.

I have 2 brikas, both tin lined copper. A local Turkish restaurant uses
a stainless brika on a table top sized butane stove. Were the brass
brikas lined?

R "hold the verdigris please" TF

Jack Denver wrote:
> Once between electric grinders I did just that and it worked acceptably if
> not fantastically - the Turkish mill had it's adjustment with a very stiff
> bolt that required a wrench so it did not drift. OTOH, the burrs were not
> exactly "precision". Actually I think it worked best with fine grinds as
> that is what is was designed for. The cone burr just floats loosely inside
> the stationary burr without more than a rudimentary bearing (the point of
> the adjustment screw) but at fine grinds there is not much room for wobble.
>
>
> I just got back from Greece where I had lots of not particularly good Greek
> (aka Turkish) coffee (nice to see though there is a place where the
> Starbuckification of the world is not yet complete - they do have them but
> not everywhere and lots of the "Greek coffee" is now prepared using hot
> water from the wand of espresso machines, but at home everyone seems to use
> a briki, a camping gaz burner (the stove burner is too big) and some
> indifferent pre-ground coffee, but at least it has some local color. I did
> pass one small shop roaster in a provincial city but it was Sunday and they
> were closed.)
>
> I came back with a stainless "briki" (which is what they mostly use
> nowadays - the brass ones are for tourists to buy as souvenirs) and so I'll
> have to drag the "Turkish" grinder out of storage and see what I can come up
> with at home.
>
>
>
>


           
Date: 10 Jul 2007 14:54:31
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: home machine musings
I'd be worried about the lead in the brass. I didn't really look closely
at the brass - I think I saw both lined and not - as I said I had the
impression that they were now a tourist item and saw them mostly in
"handicrafts" type shops. At the supermarket (though in Greece even a corner
grocery store is a "supermarket") where I bought mine all they sold were
stainless and that's all I ever saw in people's homes. Stainless also goes
in the dishwasher which I think is a good idea for something that would
otherwise tend to accumulate coffee oils. It also looks like it would make
a decent steaming pitcher, butter melter, etc. Not as nostalgic as the
brass but more practical. In Greece, "Greek" coffee is an everyday
household thing, not a nostalgia trip. They do it in a "modern" way for
better or for worse. For a butane burner, everyone seemed to use the
"camping gaz" stoves, like this:

http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a8/c7/5954_1.JPG

I have an old Silex electric "stove" (mini-hot plate) which seems to be
about the right size.




Supposedly a brika should be narrow at the top but the stainless ones don't
really taper much. Although the grind doesn't have to be consistent it does
have to be very fine, almost powder.




"Moka Java" <rtwatches@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5fhtdiF2mhcaiU1@mid.individual.net...
> Looking at the burrs in a Turkish mill it would seem that the wider you go
> the more inconsistent the grind will be. Brewing in a brika doesn't
> demand a particularly consistent grind so precision is not important
> there.
>
> I have 2 brikas, both tin lined copper. A local Turkish restaurant uses a
> stainless brika on a table top sized butane stove. Were the brass brikas
> lined?
>
>>>
>>




 
Date: 07 Jul 2007 17:09:36
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Am 7 Jul 2007, Jack Denver schrieb:

> Of course if you tell a beginner that "budget" means a $400+ package,
> you may get some push back. I'm not sure that when I was starting out
> I would have bitten if I knew the price of entry for a cup of coffee
> was $400+ - enough to buy a fridge or a washing machine.

One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.



--
barutanseijin@gmail.com


  
Date: 07 Jul 2007 16:22:32
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Barutan Seijin wrote:

>
> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>
>
>

Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?

R "don't get me started" TF


   
Date: 07 Jul 2007 20:48:59
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: home machine musings
I don't know if that poster has, but I have & it can be a pain - in the arm.
It's my storm grinder of choice (used last during hurricane Rita a couple of
years ago). I've found that two-stage grinding works best - once at a very
coarse setting and again at my preferred setting. Be prepared to spend some
time doing it. Maybe I should stash some pods in my storm kit?
--
Robert Harmon
--
http://www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - My 'Guidelines For Newbies' page.

http://www.tinyurl.com/2cr3e2 - I have things for sale here.
"Moka Java" <rtwatches@fishyahoo.com > wrote in message
news:5fab55F3b6dpnU1@mid.individual.net...
> Barutan Seijin wrote:
>
>>
>> One could do very well with a Zassenhaus grinder and a used machine.
>> Depending on the deal, one could get away with much less than $400.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Have you ever actually tried using a Zassenhaus for grinding espresso?
>
> R "don't get me started" TF
>




    
Date: 08 Jul 2007 07:13:04
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Robert Harmon wrote:
> I don't know if that poster has, but I have & it can be a pain - in the arm.
> It's my storm grinder of choice (used last during hurricane Rita a couple of
> years ago). I've found that two-stage grinding works best - once at a very
> coarse setting and again at my preferred setting. Be prepared to spend some
> time doing it. Maybe I should stash some pods in my storm kit?

If you don't have power to run a grinder waddaya gonna do with pods?
Use 'em as hacky sacks?

R "wow! pods might be good for something!" TF


    
Date: 07 Jul 2007 17:26:58
From: jggall01
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 20:48:59 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

> Maybe I should stash some pods in my storm kit?

In case things get really bad and you can't find the cyanide pills?

[Sorry - don't know what got into me.]

JGG


     
Date: 08 Jul 2007 02:43:28
From: Steve
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:26:58 -0400, jggall01 <jggall01@yahoo.com >
wrote:

>[Sorry - don't know what got into me.]

LOL
Good taste?


 
Date: 07 Jul 2007 11:20:34
From: Moka Java
Subject: Re: home machine musings
shane wrote:
> The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
> pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
> I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
> portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
> At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
> before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
> has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
> I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
> the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
> Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
> when I have a party.
> So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.
>
> Shane
>

From my experience a better machine makes it much easier to get good,
consistent results. A little practice and experimenting with the
Cimbali will likely get better results than your Barista. Of course,
that assumes the Cimbali is set up right, is paired with a decent
grinder and you're using good beans. A 2 group Cimbali should be able
to put out 2 drinks a minute w/o a problem. A single boiler machine is
fine for making a drink or 2 for yourself but will frustrate and
embarrass you if you want to serve a dinner party of 6.

R "who recalls pulling a shot on an Epocha ground and tamped by a Swift
and thinking it was the best super-auto ever" TF



 
Date: 07 Jul 2007 09:14:35
From: bernie
Subject: Re: home machine musings
shane wrote:
> The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
> pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
> I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
> portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
> At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
> before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
> has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
> I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
> the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
> Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
> when I have a party.
> So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.
>
> Shane
>

I see your problem. You are applying logic. Don't go there. A big
commercial machine is shiney. It sucks power. It can scald you more
quickly. It is a PITA in a residential kitchen. It won't fit under hung
cabinetry in many cases. It needs a drain. It needs to be plumbed. But,
there is an upside. You can make your grandkids very fancy hot chocolate
as well as their mom. You own the biggest steamer on the block. You can
make a lot of drinks fast at 12am to get the guests headed out the door.
Bernie


  
Date: 08 Jul 2007 05:56:46
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:14:35 -0600, bernie <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote:

>make a lot of drinks fast at 12am to get the guests headed out the door.

whenever that happens with us, all they do is go out into the street
to play frisbee, and then come back in for more espresso/lattes at
1am.... then back out.... then back in.... then... well, you get
the idea.

--barry "frisbee in the snow!"



   
Date: 08 Jul 2007 14:03:39
From: bernie
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Barry Jarrett wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 09:14:35 -0600, bernie <bdigman@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> >make a lot of drinks fast at 12am to get the guests headed out the door.
>
> whenever that happens with us, all they do is go out into the street
> to play frisbee, and then come back in for more espresso/lattes at
> 1am.... then back out.... then back in.... then... well, you get
> the idea.
>
> --barry "frisbee in the snow!"
>

Street? You got a street? The neighbors pitched in last month and had
the road grader cut down the washboard we call a road. Snow? You got
snow? I see that on TV sometimes. I understand it is cold.
Bernie "the coyotes stole the frisbees"


    
Date: 09 Jul 2007 06:22:42
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:03:39 -0600, bernie <bdigman@zianet.com > wrote:

> Street? You got a street? The neighbors pitched in last month and had
>the road grader cut down the washboard we call a road. Snow? You got
>snow? I see that on TV sometimes. I understand it is cold.


and it's green around here in the summer. :)


--barry "got coyotes, too"


 
Date: 07 Jul 2007 10:19:49
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: home machine musings
I have a Saeco that I use as a backup machine and you're right that the
shots are surprisingly good for such a cheap machine (provided the beans and
grind are correct). However, compared to my HX machine (NS Oscar) the
steaming is pathetic and of course there is no simultaneous steam and brew.
So I'd say it's one of those classic 80/20 situations where you get 80% of
the functionality for 20% of the price. In turn, an Oscar has maybe 80% of
the functionality of the 2 group Cimbali for 20% of the price of that
machine. Etc. The same thing goes on in cars, stereos, etc. so the
question is whether you are the type of person who is satisfied with 80% of
what is potentially available or even 96% of what is available or whether
you won't rest until you have perfection.

But, for the person on a budget, it's perfectly valid advice to tell them to
spend 50% or more of their money on the grinder and go with say the $200
Gaggia Espresso as their machine. Of course if you tell a beginner that
"budget" means a $400+ package, you may get some push back. I'm not sure
that when I was starting out I would have bitten if I knew the price of
entry for a cup of coffee was $400+ - enough to buy a fridge or a washing
machine. So you will always have lots of people buying $68 Hamilton Beach
pump espresso machines at Walmart with plastic group heads (or even steam
toys) and pairing them up with whirly blades or preground. Those people
will either give up completely after a few tries or bite the bullet and buy
what they should have bought in the first place when they realize that
nothing resembling espresso will issue from their machine until they get a
quality grinder and acess to fresh coffee (many people, unless they come
here, will never understand that much).






"shane" <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1183729900.554269.59990@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
> pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
> I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
> portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
> At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
> before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
> has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
> I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
> the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
> Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
> when I have a party.
> So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.
>
> Shane
>




 
Date: 06 Jul 2007 23:11:01
From: Bertie Doe
Subject: Re: home machine musings

"shane" wrote in message
> My church has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.

> Shane

If you can pull shots on the Barista, equal to the Cimb, why not get another
Barista on ebay. Come partytime, you could use one for brewing espresso
shots and the other for steaming.

BD




 
Date: 06 Jul 2007 14:05:16
From: Ed Needham
Subject: Re: home machine musings
There are a few other things a commercial machine brings to the table as
compared with a high end home model.

Upside
-Commercial machines are usually the plumbed in type, which is very nice if
you want to go that route.
-Further, they are built from stainless and heavy duty parts.
-Replacement parts are usually readily available.
-They will likely be more consistent and flexible in producing great
espresso.

Downside
-A high end home unit can make espresso as good as a commercial unit if you
have a commercial grinder.
-Unless you get a really sweet deal, they cost much more to purchase.
-They need a very minimum of a half hour to heat up before pulling the first
shots.
-Sometimes it is difficult to get the machine properly adjusted and dialed
in for great espresso.
-They will cost more to heat up, leave on and maintain.
-They need dedicated electrical lines and holes drilled into countertops.
-They usually have a larger footprint and take up more space.

That said, I moved a number of years ago from a Gaggia Espresso home unit to
a La Pavoni PUBS single group commercial machine. As far as I am concerned,
there is no looking back.
The Gaggia is in a box in the basement.
--
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
*********************



"shane" < > wrote in message
news:1183729900.554269.59990@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
> pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
> I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
> portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
> At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
> before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
> has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
> I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
> the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
> Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
> when I have a party.
> So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.
>
> Shane
>




 
Date: 06 Jul 2007 09:13:12
From: shane
Subject: Re: home machine musings
On Jul 6, 10:53 am, "Brian Colwell" <bmcolw...@shaw.ca > wrote:
> "shane" <shane.ol...@juno.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183729900.554269.59990@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
> > pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
> > I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
> > portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
> > At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
> > before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
> > has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> > periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> > that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> > Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
> > I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
> > the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
> > Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
> > when I have a party.
> > So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> > find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.
>
> > Shane
>
> As been said many times on this n/g......before you upgrade your espresso
> machine, invest in the best grinder you can.
> I played around with some old machines that had ended up in the basement as
> I was struck by upgrade fever ! and using the Rocky to grind coffee for
> these machines (even and old steam machine }
> The improvement in the shots were quite impressive !
>
> bmc- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The grinder does make the biggest difference. I would have saved
money by just starting with the Mazzer.....
Beans are important too. I usually homeroast, my blend of choice is
Sweet Maria's Liquid Amber.
I have mail ordered roasted beans, too. I have been struck by how
well the beans from Espresso Vivace work.
I cannot manage to pull a bad shot with the Dolce blend. Makes me
wonder if homeroasting is worth the bother...

Shane



 
Date: 06 Jul 2007 15:53:12
From: Brian Colwell
Subject: Re: home machine musings

"shane" <shane.olson@juno.com > wrote in message
news:1183729900.554269.59990@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> The postings this week seem a bit slow. Once again I find myself
> pondering what I actually need in a home espresso machine. Currently
> I am using a Starbucks Barista, with a Saeco non-pressurized
> portafilter and a Mazzer mini grinder.
> At one point I had thought I needed a bigger machine. This was
> before I ever really touched a commercial espresso machine. My church
> has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run it
> periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.
> I do find that the grinder and beans make the biggest difference in
> the making of an espresso. The only advantage to moving up from the
> Barista, would be the ability to make a larger quantity of drinks,
> when I have a party.
> So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.
>
> Shane
>
As been said many times on this n/g......before you upgrade your espresso
machine, invest in the best grinder you can.
I played around with some old machines that had ended up in the basement as
I was struck by upgrade fever ! and using the Rocky to grind coffee for
these machines (even and old steam machine }
The improvement in the shots were quite impressive !

bmc




 
Date: 06 Jul 2007 10:43:27
From: Barutan Seijin
Subject: Re: home machine musings
Am 6 Jul 2007, shane schrieb:




> My church has installed a 2 group La Cimbali machine and I get to run
> it periodically. Comparing what I can make on either machine, I find
> that, I can indeed produce as good an espresso and or latte on the
> Barista as I can on the La Cimbali.

This is the crucial point.

> So, currently my thinking is to keep the Barista until it dies or I
> find a deal on a machine that I cannot pass up.

That makes perfect sense to me.

For what it's worth, we also have a Barista, and it's just fine for now.
The thinking at the Ranch here is that when some big bucks roll in,
we'll move the Barista over to the studio and get a shiny new thing to
satisfy our inner crows.


--
barutanseijin@gmail.com