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Date: 29 Dec 2006 18:37:11
From: will
Subject: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
Hi,

Im looking to replace our silvia/tranquilo set up with a plumbed in
machine. Weve just finished remodeling our kitchen so ive added a
coffee bar with water supply and drain. Ive narrowed my search to La
Spaziale vivaldi SII (from chris) and the reneka techno. Im leaning
toward the spaz II since the techno is discontinued. Really the
vivaldi II seems to have everything we are looking for in an espresso
machine (plumbed in, drain, dual boiler, rotary pump, optional
programmable timer, temp control on brew/steam). The portafilter is
smaller than 58mm but doesnt seem to be that big a deal. I like the
programmable espresso draw to make it easier for my wife to use. She's
still a bit intimidated by silvia.

I love other machines such as the cimbali jr and rancilio epoca E1.
However, those are out of our $2000 price range. Ill still be keeping
the tranquillo grinder.

So just wondering if there is any other plumbed in espresso machine
under 2k that I may be overlooking?

thanks,
Will





 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 06:41:06
From: daveb
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
H+B:
But you don't have to do all that polishing and wiping !!

dave



 
Date: 30 Dec 2006 06:38:46
From: daveb
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
Plumbed drains should be standard equipment for (stock) HX!

Dave



 
Date: 29 Dec 2006 22:36:36
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
I've had the Vivaldi II for about a month. There may be something else
that you would prefer, but I don't believe that there is another
machine "like the Viv II" that you are missing. Note that this is not
a plug-and-play machine. There's still a learning curve and all the
usual opportunities to pull a mediocre shot. But compared to my years
with my Isomac Tea, it's very satisfying.

The "volumetric doser" is ginally nifty, but not a replacement for
recognizing when to stop the shot. I like it for doing the required
start-up warming flush. I suppose that if I were pulling lots of shots
over a period of time, had my grind perfectly tuned in, and was in a
tamping and dosing groove, it might be nice to start shots and turn my
back on them to do some other task-----just like the pros do at
Starbucks. But for two or three shots, I study the pour and keep my
finger near the button.

Double boiler is excellent, though I was never short of steam on my Tea
and never found surfing that daunting. Other's have reported that the
programmable temp is very stable. I'm just keeping mine set at 95
c.until I've established how that temp does with my homeroasts. I'll
fool with the temp after another month or so.

Not having to do a cooling flush is handy. I love the direct plumb,
though there's a downside for me. I used to tune my filtered water for
hardness at +/- 5 grains. Now, it all runs throught a softener, and
I'm down to under 1 g. There may be some flattening of the shots,
though I don't fully trust this judgement yet.

I'm starting to admire the toned-down, cafe look of the LaSpaz, though
the plastic side panels and funky decals are not stunning like some of
the less costly, more buff SS machines.

tin

will wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Im looking to replace our silvia/tranquilo set up with a plumbed in
> machine. Weve just finished remodeling our kitchen so ive added a
> coffee bar with water supply and drain. Ive narrowed my search to La
> Spaziale vivaldi SII (from chris) and the reneka techno. Im leaning
> toward the spaz II since the techno is discontinued. Really the
> vivaldi II seems to have everything we are looking for in an espresso
> machine (plumbed in, drain, dual boiler, rotary pump, optional
> programmable timer, temp control on brew/steam). The portafilter is
> smaller than 58mm but doesnt seem to be that big a deal. I like the
> programmable espresso draw to make it easier for my wife to use. She's
> still a bit intimidated by silvia.
>
> I love other machines such as the cimbali jr and rancilio epoca E1.
> However, those are out of our $2000 price range. Ill still be keeping
> the tranquillo grinder.
>
> So just wondering if there is any other plumbed in espresso machine
> under 2k that I may be overlooking?
>
> thanks,
> Will



  
Date: 30 Dec 2006 11:48:14
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
Some conveniences are, well, more or less convenient. My LaSpaz sits
8" above sink level, well back from the front of the counter, and 3 "
to the right. No point to plumb in the drain. Even at my fumbliest,
nearly all the water winds up in the sink.

OTOH, when considering a new machine----or advising someone
else----keep in mind that small conveniences compound themselves and
add up to a more or less satisfying machine; even if any one feature
might not be fully justified on its merits alone. Collecting all the
legitimate rationale for a particular "upgrade" NOT being essential,
would have us all using a Sylvia (and no PID).

While I'm at it, about that "8 inches above the sink" : I'd never have
designed this height if I were starting from scratch on a coffee bar
remodel. However, given what I have to work with, it has turned out
beautifully. I got the idea that I could set the LaSpaz up and into a
"garden window" above the sink after observing how many bar and shop
machines were higher than conventional sink counters and how short
baristas seemed to have no problem. In fact, with the pf at nearer eye
level, it's easier to monitor shots. Raising the machine also gives me
all the counter space previously occupied. One of these days, photos.
tin

shall wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:04:01 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
> <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote:
>
> >shall, I think you miss the point. Regardless of how much goes down the
> >drain or not, a drain is convenient. Just as the drain you use in your kitchen
> >sink that you dump your tray in is convenient. ;)
> >
> >
> >Dan
>
> Well, I suppose anyone could "Wallace and Gromit" himself into a house
> full of "conveniences." But, I don't think I've heard of anyone who
> thought plumbing in the drain on a single boiler machine was a
> sensible convenience. This, of course, excludes Andy Schecter, who no
> doubt has installed a direct line from his Silvia to Lake Ontario.
>
> shall



  
Date: 30 Dec 2006 07:22:54
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
On 29 Dec 2006 22:36:36 -0800, "Heat + Beans" <heatgunroast@gmail.com >
wrote:

>Not having to do a cooling flush is handy. I love the direct plumb,
>though there's a downside for me. I used to tune my filtered water for
>hardness at +/- 5 grains. Now, it all runs throught a softener, and
>I'm down to under 1 g. There may be some flattening of the shots,
>though I don't fully trust this judgement yet.

>tin

As tin notes, the trade-off in plumbing-in is that (in most
locales) you need buy and maintain water treatment, which may not give
as good a result as bottled water. In addition, since you are looking
at non-HX machines, you should realize that the convenience factor
will be considerably reduced, because you won't need those long
cooling flushes. I think it's a toss-up whether plumbing in is a good
idea for non-HX machines.

shall


   
Date: 30 Dec 2006 08:52:56
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
> As tin notes, the trade-off in plumbing-in is that (in most
> locales) you need buy and maintain water treatment, which may not give
> as good a result as bottled water. In addition, since you are looking
> at non-HX machines, you should realize that the convenience factor
> will be considerably reduced, because you won't need those long
> cooling flushes. I think it's a toss-up whether plumbing in is a good
> idea for non-HX machines.
>

To my way of thinking, anyone looking at a $2K espresso machine isn't going to
be thwarted by the cost of an RO unit and calcite water treatment cartridge to
feed it good water. Heck I have that water delivery on my $700 Isomac Millenium
(eBay scratch 'n dent). And what I like the most about having a machine plumbed
in is never having to oh-so-carefully take the drain tray over to the sink to
empty it. You see, on my modified IM, the plumbing works both ways.

Dan



    
Date: 30 Dec 2006 14:20:19
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:52:56 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>> As tin notes, the trade-off in plumbing-in is that (in most
>> locales) you need buy and maintain water treatment, which may not give
>> as good a result as bottled water. In addition, since you are looking
>> at non-HX machines, you should realize that the convenience factor
>> will be considerably reduced, because you won't need those long
>> cooling flushes. I think it's a toss-up whether plumbing in is a good
>> idea for non-HX machines.
>
>To my way of thinking, anyone looking at a $2K espresso machine isn't going to
>be thwarted by the cost of an RO unit and calcite water treatment cartridge to
>feed it good water. Heck I have that water delivery on my $700 Isomac Millenium
>(eBay scratch 'n dent). And what I like the most about having a machine plumbed
>in is never having to oh-so-carefully take the drain tray over to the sink to
>empty it. You see, on my modified IM, the plumbing works both ways.
>
>Dan

But, your Millennium is a heat exchanger.

It takes more than two weeks to fill the drain tray of my non-HX
Zaffiro. No balancing act is required to tilt a 1/3 full tray into the
sink next to it once a week. I'm on the waiting list for the
considerably more expensive GS3 (also a non-HX), and I still haven't
decided whether to plumb it in. It will depend on how easy it is to
fill and empty. The "final" design is supposed to have a tank and
drain tray that are easy to slide out for off-site catering.

shall


     
Date: 30 Dec 2006 10:28:56
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
> It takes more than two weeks to fill the drain tray of my non-HX
> Zaffiro. No balancing act is required

LOL! HX or not, it wouldn't matter how long it takes to fill a tray. It must
be a character flaw of mine, but I don't see the water in that tray until the
meniscus is higher than the tray's edges! Dan



      
Date: 30 Dec 2006 15:37:48
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:28:56 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>> It takes more than two weeks to fill the drain tray of my non-HX
>> Zaffiro. No balancing act is required
>
>LOL! HX or not, it wouldn't matter how long it takes to fill a tray.

Where does the water go when you do your cooling flushes?

shall


       
Date: 30 Dec 2006 11:34:00
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
> Where does the water go when you do your cooling flushes?

Like my four year-old grandaughtes says, "It goes bye-bye!" When I plumbed my
IM, including adding a triple-chamber rotary diaphram pump, I added a drain,
too. I silver-soldered a 1/4" copper elbow to the bottom of the drip tray and
used 3/8" tubing to connect it to a 5/8" drain line I ran at the same time I ran
the 1/4" water line. It goes down one floor and empties into the same drain as
the water softener rinse uses.

Dan




        
Date: 30 Dec 2006 16:39:12
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:34:00 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>> Where does the water go when you do your cooling flushes?
>
>Like my four year-old grandaughtes says, "It goes bye-bye!" When I plumbed my
>IM, including adding a triple-chamber rotary diaphram pump, I added a drain,
>too. I silver-soldered a 1/4" copper elbow to the bottom of the drip tray and
>used 3/8" tubing to connect it to a 5/8" drain line I ran at the same time I ran
>the 1/4" water line. It goes down one floor and empties into the same drain as
>the water softener rinse uses.

Then you missed my point, which was that all that plumbing is
unnecessary, if you only need to dump out a 1/3 full tray once a week.
It's the HX that makes drain plumbing a necessity.

shall


         
Date: 30 Dec 2006 15:58:41
From: GeeDubb
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K

"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:e95dp299pivus5b1gi0f5hpk6mm8edp179@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:34:00 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
> <danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com> wrote:
>
>>> Where does the water go when you do your cooling flushes?
>>
>>Like my four year-old grandaughtes says, "It goes bye-bye!" When I
>>plumbed my
>>IM, including adding a triple-chamber rotary diaphram pump, I added a
>>drain,
>>too. I silver-soldered a 1/4" copper elbow to the bottom of the drip tray
>>and
>>used 3/8" tubing to connect it to a 5/8" drain line I ran at the same time
>>I ran
>>the 1/4" water line. It goes down one floor and empties into the same
>>drain as
>>the water softener rinse uses.
>
> Then you missed my point, which was that all that plumbing is
> unnecessary, if you only need to dump out a 1/3 full tray once a week.


> It's the HX that makes drain plumbing a necessity.
>
> shall
why? I use a spare coffee cup to flush the group into then dump that in the
sink 2 feet away. No necessity necessary.

Gary



         
Date: 30 Dec 2006 12:04:01
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
> Then you missed my point, which was that all that plumbing is
> unnecessary, if you only need to dump out a 1/3 full tray once a week.
> It's the HX that makes drain plumbing a necessity.
>
> shall

shall, I think you miss the point. Regardless of how much goes down the
drain or not, a drain is convenient. Just as the drain you use in your kitchen
sink that you dump your tray in is convenient. ;)


Dan



          
Date: 30 Dec 2006 17:16:31
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:04:01 -0500, "Dan Bollinger"
<danNObollinger@insightSPAMbb.com > wrote:

>shall, I think you miss the point. Regardless of how much goes down the
>drain or not, a drain is convenient. Just as the drain you use in your kitchen
>sink that you dump your tray in is convenient. ;)
>
>
>Dan

Well, I suppose anyone could "Wallace and Gromit" himself into a house
full of "conveniences." But, I don't think I've heard of anyone who
thought plumbing in the drain on a single boiler machine was a
sensible convenience. This, of course, excludes Andy Schecter, who no
doubt has installed a direct line from his Silvia to Lake Ontario.

shall


           
Date: 30 Dec 2006 17:07:07
From: Dan Bollinger
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K
shall, I'm so pleased for you that you haven't 'cluttered' your life with
'inconveniences.' And thanks for putting me in with the likes of Andy. Dan



 
Date: 29 Dec 2006 19:33:05
From:
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K

will wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Im looking to replace our silvia/tranquilo set up with a plumbed in
> machine. Weve just finished remodeling our kitchen so ive added a
> coffee bar with water supply and drain. Ive narrowed my search to La
> Spaziale vivaldi SII (from chris) and the reneka techno. Im leaning
> toward the spaz II since the techno is discontinued. Really the
> vivaldi II seems to have everything we are looking for in an espresso
> machine (plumbed in, drain, dual boiler, rotary pump, optional
> programmable timer, temp control on brew/steam). The portafilter is
> smaller than 58mm but doesnt seem to be that big a deal. I like the
> programmable espresso draw to make it easier for my wife to use. She's
> still a bit intimidated by silvia.
>
> I love other machines such as the cimbali jr and rancilio epoca E1.
> However, those are out of our $2000 price range. Ill still be keeping
> the tranquillo grinder.
>
> So just wondering if there is any other plumbed in espresso machine
> under 2k that I may be overlooking?
>
> thanks,
> Will

The best single boiler, e61 group, heat exchanging, plumbed in rotary
pump machine would be the Vetrano. Excellent machine. Fiorenzato
makes a plumbed in Bricoletta. The Izzo Alex is the flavour of the
month, new at Chris' Coffee, and it has a water line that can be
switched from reservoir to plumb in feed. I've got a Vetrano and she's
all I need and then some. Excellent machine.

A Vivaldi SII double boiler is more straight forward to use than a
single boiler HX and both are much easier to use than a Silvia. I had
a Silvia and she's a demanding machine. Any good semi automatic
machine over $900 would be easier to use.

If you're upgrading your machine you might want to consider upgrading
from a Tranquilo. A better grinder is more important to the quality of
your espresso than your machine given your using a fresh roast. If
you're ordering fom Chris' coffee I hear he's sold out of SII's right
now but they're very helpful with advice and worth contacting if you're
interested in good equipment.



 
Date: 29 Dec 2006 20:03:28
From: GeeDubb
Subject: Re: opinions on plumbed in espresso machine under 2K

"will" <willmcm20@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1167446231.085037.16350@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> Im looking to replace our silvia/tranquilo set up with a plumbed in
> machine. Weve just finished remodeling our kitchen so ive added a
> coffee bar with water supply and drain. Ive narrowed my search to La
> Spaziale vivaldi SII (from chris) and the reneka techno. Im leaning
> toward the spaz II since the techno is discontinued. Really the
> vivaldi II seems to have everything we are looking for in an espresso
> machine (plumbed in, drain, dual boiler, rotary pump, optional
> programmable timer, temp control on brew/steam). The portafilter is
> smaller than 58mm but doesnt seem to be that big a deal. I like the
> programmable espresso draw to make it easier for my wife to use. She's
> still a bit intimidated by silvia.
>
> I love other machines such as the cimbali jr and rancilio epoca E1.
> However, those are out of our $2000 price range. Ill still be keeping
> the tranquillo grinder.
>
> So just wondering if there is any other plumbed in espresso machine
> under 2k that I may be overlooking?
>
> thanks,
> Will
>

My Unic Twin Diva was about $625 with shipping. Ebay can be a wonderful
thing if you don't need new.

Gary