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Date: 14 Apr 2007 15:31:23
From: Old Godzilla
Subject: subtrefuge vs. honesty
Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:

1. Sweet Maria's
The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
in the hot sun over a weekend.

2. Burman Coffee
They have given me excellent service on my recent orders.
Their location in Madison, WI means a four day shipping time.

3. Coffee Wholesalers
They are the only source that I know of for Malabar Gold,
which is my current favorite for espresso and have had some
excellent other coffees from them as well. But, they appear to be out of
stock on many of their offerings, plus their Eugene, OR location
means one day more in transit than Sweet Maria's - plus sitting over a
weekend.

4. Dalton Coffee
Located in Houston, TX only 200 miles from my ranch, which means only
one or two days in transit. I sort of remembered why I stopped ordering
from them, but decided to give it a try. Going to their website, I
clicked on 1 lb. of beans and then took a peek at checkout. Without even
knowing WHERE I am located they had already added a $10.50 shipping
charge!

5. Intelligencia Coffee & Tea
Never having ordered from them before, I do remember a number of coffee
aficionados in this group speaking highly of them, in addition to some
respectful words from Thom Owen of Sweet Maria's. There, I ordered three
different 1 lb. bags of green plus 1/2 lb. of their Black Cat Espresso
which has garnered much praise from a number of posters here.
From Chicago to my little ranch in Texas, I am being charged $6.56
which is the actual UPS charge, the same as the other HONEST places do.

What is the moral of the story? See what you can get away with, figuring
that most people don't look or care? Or, be honest and perhaps
gain a lot of future orders from satisfied customers.

Godzilla




 
Date: 17 Apr 2007 09:09:20
From: daveb
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Apr 14, 5:35 pm, Lavarock <lavaro...@myhawaiiansite.com > wrote:
> The Other Funk wrote:
> > On the topic of shipping costs, I am aware of 3 schools of thought.
> > 1. Charge a high enough amount to make sure you don't lose anything on
> > the packaging, shipping and handling. You can also lower the price of
> > your product/s this way.
> > 2. Charge actual shipping costs and put the packaging and handling costs
> > in to the product price.
> > 3. Charge an incremental price. Say $5 for he first pound and $1 for
> > each additional pound.
> > I don't see that any of these methods are even close to being called
> > dishonest. The charges are fully disclosed before you pay Caveat Emptor.
> > Bob
> > --=81
>
> The OTHER side of shipping...
>
> I can tell you that shipping costs are the touchiest thing I know in
> commerce.
>
> Living in Hawaii I go to some websites that refuse to sell to anyone in
> my state. Go to Microcenter.Com, put something in your basket and go to
> checkout. Hawaii is not in the drop down box for a delivery address. So
> try to cheat and have it delivered somewhere else but billed to you in
> Hawaii, NOPE! Can't even buy something with a billing address here.
>
> Then if you DO find someone willing to ship to Hawaii, the cost jumps
> from a few dollars for mainland shipping to perhaps $45 to get it here!
>
> It does NOT cost $45 to ship something like a disk drive here. The
> company forces you to use their "selected" carrier like UPS or Fedex and
> they don't happen to deliver to this state for a reasonable charge. If
> you ask them to use USPS flat rate shipping, they refuse. So they lose a
> sale. The same disk drive would fit in a flat rate box and ship to all
> 50 states for $8.10 and be delivered in 3-5 business days. Sounds
> logical but many companies seem oblivious to alternative shipping
> methods that would actually make sense.
>
> When I set up my shopping cart to sell items and ship them from here, I
> ran into a similar quandary. Many shopping carts do not have a lot of
> smarts when it comes to shipping options. Even the best carts leave a
> lot to be desired.
>
> I can ship up to 2 pounds of coffee in an envelope for $4.05 by USPS
> flat rate. The weight of the item is not the determining factor; it is
> the size. Will it fit in the bag? If someone buys more coffee, I can fit
> up to perhaps 6 or 7 pounds in a flat rate box for $8.10. In the cases
> of USPS Flat Rate Priority shipments, the boxes are free. If I want to
> ship by UPS or Fedex or regualr Post Office shipping, I may have to
> supply the boxes (at a cost of a dollar or so extra).
>
> In the above examples, if I charge per pound, based upon regular
> shipping rates, I end up overcharging the customer by a great deal,
> because I can put a lot of stuff in that envelope or box.
>
> Since I can ship perhaps 7 pounds of coffee in a box for $8.10, should I
> just add $1.16 to each bag of coffee and lose money on each pound I sell
> just because they didn't order the stuff 7 pounds at a time?
>
> Sometimes I can put a small bag of coffee or a calendar in a 1st class
> envelope and charge a dollar or so for actually shipping. However, each
> item differs in size, weight and amount that can shipped for a price.
>
> In the grand scheme of things, I can try to create packages like 2
> pounds of coffee and include the shipping in the cost. I can create a
> package and encourage people to put in from 3 to 7 pounds because they
> end up saving on shipping.
>
> So even when a shopping cart can charge based upon weight and/or number
> off boxes and/or location to ship to and/or zone and/or country, it is
> possible that the shipping cost is not going to be the actual charge.
>
> When I buy something I hate to see that the charge for shipping is a lot
> more than I know it should be. I also don't want to be led on with an
> offer of FREE SHIPPING* and an asterisk that ends up being a charge of
> $45 when I finally get to checkout.
>
> For those who might suggest that actual shipping costs be charged, we
> vendors may not know that cost until the day of shipment, long after we
> have debited your credit card. Are you willing to wait a couple of days
> to see what the actual cost of an item is going to be? Doubtful.
>
> So in my case, I finally dropped the "FREE SHIPPING" option where as you
> know, shipping is not free but bundled into the price. I personally now
> have shipping costs capped at a maximum of $3.00 (unless they get
> creative and try to buy 50 pounds of stuff). On some item I will lose
> money, buy by offering a shipping deal, I may sell a bit more coffee.
> People love bargains.
>
> So yes, sometimes shipping costs are wrong and horrible and sometimes
> the company does not care. In my own case, having been on the receiving
> end of gouging, I have at least tried to make it more fair. When I saw
> that a customer paid for shipping when they should not have, I dropped
> an extra little bag of coffee into the box.
>
> --
>
> They said that someone has to live in Hawaii and I raised my hand first!

test remark.



  
Date: 17 Apr 2007 20:29:54
From: seastl
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On 17 Apr 2007 09:09:20 -0700, daveb <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Apr 14, 5:35 pm, Lavarock <lavaro...@myhawaiiansite.com> wrote:
>> The Other Funk wrote:
>> > On the topic of shipping costs, I am aware of 3 schools of thought.
>> > 1. Charge a high enough amount to make sure you don't lose anything on
>> > the packaging, shipping and handling. You can also lower the price of
>> > your product/s this way.
>> > 2. Charge actual shipping costs and put the packaging and handling costs
>> > in to the product price.
>> > 3. Charge an incremental price. Say $5 for he first pound and $1 for
>> > each additional pound.
>> > I don't see that any of these methods are even close to being called
>> > dishonest. The charges are fully disclosed before you pay Caveat Emptor.
>> > Bob
>> > --?
>>
>> The OTHER side of shipping...
>>
>> I can tell you that shipping costs are the touchiest thing I know in
>> commerce.
>>
>> Living in Hawaii I go to some websites that refuse to sell to anyone in
>> my state. Go to Microcenter.Com, put something in your basket and go to
>> checkout. Hawaii is not in the drop down box for a delivery address. So
>> try to cheat and have it delivered somewhere else but billed to you in
>> Hawaii, NOPE! Can't even buy something with a billing address here.
>>
>> Then if you DO find someone willing to ship to Hawaii, the cost jumps
>> from a few dollars for mainland shipping to perhaps $45 to get it here!
>>
>> It does NOT cost $45 to ship something like a disk drive here. The
>> company forces you to use their "selected" carrier like UPS or Fedex and
>> they don't happen to deliver to this state for a reasonable charge. If
>> you ask them to use USPS flat rate shipping, they refuse. So they lose a
>> sale. The same disk drive would fit in a flat rate box and ship to all
>> 50 states for $8.10 and be delivered in 3-5 business days. Sounds
>> logical but many companies seem oblivious to alternative shipping
>> methods that would actually make sense.
>>
>> When I set up my shopping cart to sell items and ship them from here, I
>> ran into a similar quandary. Many shopping carts do not have a lot of
>> smarts when it comes to shipping options. Even the best carts leave a
>> lot to be desired.
>>
>> I can ship up to 2 pounds of coffee in an envelope for $4.05 by USPS
>> flat rate. The weight of the item is not the determining factor; it is
>> the size. Will it fit in the bag? If someone buys more coffee, I can fit
>> up to perhaps 6 or 7 pounds in a flat rate box for $8.10. In the cases
>> of USPS Flat Rate Priority shipments, the boxes are free. If I want to
>> ship by UPS or Fedex or regualr Post Office shipping, I may have to
>> supply the boxes (at a cost of a dollar or so extra).
>>
>> In the above examples, if I charge per pound, based upon regular
>> shipping rates, I end up overcharging the customer by a great deal,
>> because I can put a lot of stuff in that envelope or box.
>>
>> Since I can ship perhaps 7 pounds of coffee in a box for $8.10, should I
>> just add $1.16 to each bag of coffee and lose money on each pound I sell
>> just because they didn't order the stuff 7 pounds at a time?
>>
>> Sometimes I can put a small bag of coffee or a calendar in a 1st class
>> envelope and charge a dollar or so for actually shipping. However, each
>> item differs in size, weight and amount that can shipped for a price.
>>
>> In the grand scheme of things, I can try to create packages like 2
>> pounds of coffee and include the shipping in the cost. I can create a
>> package and encourage people to put in from 3 to 7 pounds because they
>> end up saving on shipping.
>>
>> So even when a shopping cart can charge based upon weight and/or number
>> off boxes and/or location to ship to and/or zone and/or country, it is
>> possible that the shipping cost is not going to be the actual charge.
>>
>> When I buy something I hate to see that the charge for shipping is a lot
>> more than I know it should be. I also don't want to be led on with an
>> offer of FREE SHIPPING* and an asterisk that ends up being a charge of
>> $45 when I finally get to checkout.
>>
>> For those who might suggest that actual shipping costs be charged, we
>> vendors may not know that cost until the day of shipment, long after we
>> have debited your credit card. Are you willing to wait a couple of days
>> to see what the actual cost of an item is going to be? Doubtful.
>>
>> So in my case, I finally dropped the "FREE SHIPPING" option where as you
>> know, shipping is not free but bundled into the price. I personally now
>> have shipping costs capped at a maximum of $3.00 (unless they get
>> creative and try to buy 50 pounds of stuff). On some item I will lose
>> money, buy by offering a shipping deal, I may sell a bit more coffee.
>> People love bargains.
>>
>> So yes, sometimes shipping costs are wrong and horrible and sometimes
>> the company does not care. In my own case, having been on the receiving
>> end of gouging, I have at least tried to make it more fair. When I saw
>> that a customer paid for shipping when they should not have, I dropped
>> an extra little bag of coffee into the box.
>>
>> --
>>
>> They said that someone has to live in Hawaii and I raised my hand first!
>
>test remark.

Jesus wept. An idiot forging you is a bit redundant, don't you think?

Brad


   
Date: 23 Apr 2007 16:16:23
From: Brent
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
but it was a bottom post

>>> The Other Funk wrote:
>>> > On the topic of shipping costs, I am aware of 3 schools of thought.
>>> > 1. Charge a high enough amount to make sure you don't lose anything on
>>> > the packaging, shipping and handling. You can also lower the price of
>>> > your product/s this way.
>>> > 2. Charge actual shipping costs and put the packaging and handling
>>> > costs
>>> > in to the product price.
>>> > 3. Charge an incremental price. Say $5 for he first pound and $1 for
>>> > each additional pound.
>>> > I don't see that any of these methods are even close to being called
>>> > dishonest. The charges are fully disclosed before you pay Caveat
>>> > Emptor.
>>> > Bob
>>> > --?
>>>
>>> The OTHER side of shipping...
>>>
>>> I can tell you that shipping costs are the touchiest thing I know in
>>> commerce.
>>>
>>> Living in Hawaii I go to some websites that refuse to sell to anyone in
>>> my state. Go to Microcenter.Com, put something in your basket and go to
>>> checkout. Hawaii is not in the drop down box for a delivery address. So
>>> try to cheat and have it delivered somewhere else but billed to you in
>>> Hawaii, NOPE! Can't even buy something with a billing address here.
>>>
>>> Then if you DO find someone willing to ship to Hawaii, the cost jumps
>>> from a few dollars for mainland shipping to perhaps $45 to get it here!
>>>
>>> It does NOT cost $45 to ship something like a disk drive here. The
>>> company forces you to use their "selected" carrier like UPS or Fedex and
>>> they don't happen to deliver to this state for a reasonable charge. If
>>> you ask them to use USPS flat rate shipping, they refuse. So they lose a
>>> sale. The same disk drive would fit in a flat rate box and ship to all
>>> 50 states for $8.10 and be delivered in 3-5 business days. Sounds
>>> logical but many companies seem oblivious to alternative shipping
>>> methods that would actually make sense.
>>>
>>> When I set up my shopping cart to sell items and ship them from here, I
>>> ran into a similar quandary. Many shopping carts do not have a lot of
>>> smarts when it comes to shipping options. Even the best carts leave a
>>> lot to be desired.
>>>
>>> I can ship up to 2 pounds of coffee in an envelope for $4.05 by USPS
>>> flat rate. The weight of the item is not the determining factor; it is
>>> the size. Will it fit in the bag? If someone buys more coffee, I can fit
>>> up to perhaps 6 or 7 pounds in a flat rate box for $8.10. In the cases
>>> of USPS Flat Rate Priority shipments, the boxes are free. If I want to
>>> ship by UPS or Fedex or regualr Post Office shipping, I may have to
>>> supply the boxes (at a cost of a dollar or so extra).
>>>
>>> In the above examples, if I charge per pound, based upon regular
>>> shipping rates, I end up overcharging the customer by a great deal,
>>> because I can put a lot of stuff in that envelope or box.
>>>
>>> Since I can ship perhaps 7 pounds of coffee in a box for $8.10, should I
>>> just add $1.16 to each bag of coffee and lose money on each pound I sell
>>> just because they didn't order the stuff 7 pounds at a time?
>>>
>>> Sometimes I can put a small bag of coffee or a calendar in a 1st class
>>> envelope and charge a dollar or so for actually shipping. However, each
>>> item differs in size, weight and amount that can shipped for a price.
>>>
>>> In the grand scheme of things, I can try to create packages like 2
>>> pounds of coffee and include the shipping in the cost. I can create a
>>> package and encourage people to put in from 3 to 7 pounds because they
>>> end up saving on shipping.
>>>
>>> So even when a shopping cart can charge based upon weight and/or number
>>> off boxes and/or location to ship to and/or zone and/or country, it is
>>> possible that the shipping cost is not going to be the actual charge.
>>>
>>> When I buy something I hate to see that the charge for shipping is a lot
>>> more than I know it should be. I also don't want to be led on with an
>>> offer of FREE SHIPPING* and an asterisk that ends up being a charge of
>>> $45 when I finally get to checkout.
>>>
>>> For those who might suggest that actual shipping costs be charged, we
>>> vendors may not know that cost until the day of shipment, long after we
>>> have debited your credit card. Are you willing to wait a couple of days
>>> to see what the actual cost of an item is going to be? Doubtful.
>>>
>>> So in my case, I finally dropped the "FREE SHIPPING" option where as you
>>> know, shipping is not free but bundled into the price. I personally now
>>> have shipping costs capped at a maximum of $3.00 (unless they get
>>> creative and try to buy 50 pounds of stuff). On some item I will lose
>>> money, buy by offering a shipping deal, I may sell a bit more coffee.
>>> People love bargains.
>>>
>>> So yes, sometimes shipping costs are wrong and horrible and sometimes
>>> the company does not care. In my own case, having been on the receiving
>>> end of gouging, I have at least tried to make it more fair. When I saw
>>> that a customer paid for shipping when they should not have, I dropped
>>> an extra little bag of coffee into the box.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> They said that someone has to live in Hawaii and I raised my hand first!
>>
>>test remark.
>
> Jesus wept. An idiot forging you is a bit redundant, don't you think?
>
> Brad




    
Date: 23 Apr 2007 16:18:34
From: Brent
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
> but it was a bottom post
>
>>>> The Other Funk wrote:
>>>> > On the topic of shipping costs, I am aware of 3 schools of thought.
>>>> > 1. Charge a high enough amount to make sure you don't lose anything
>>>> > on
>>>> > the packaging, shipping and handling. You can also lower the price
>>>> > of
>>>> > your product/s this way.
>>>> > 2. Charge actual shipping costs and put the packaging and handling
>>>> > costs
>>>> > in to the product price.
>>>> > 3. Charge an incremental price. Say $5 for he first pound and $1 for
>>>> > each additional pound.
>>>> > I don't see that any of these methods are even close to being called
>>>> > dishonest. The charges are fully disclosed before you pay Caveat
>>>> > Emptor.
>>>> > Bob
>>>> > --?
>>>>
>>>> The OTHER side of shipping...
>>>>
>>>> I can tell you that shipping costs are the touchiest thing I know in
>>>> commerce.
>>>>
>>>> Living in Hawaii I go to some websites that refuse to sell to anyone in
>>>> my state. Go to Microcenter.Com, put something in your basket and go to
>>>> checkout. Hawaii is not in the drop down box for a delivery address. So
>>>> try to cheat and have it delivered somewhere else but billed to you in
>>>> Hawaii, NOPE! Can't even buy something with a billing address here.
>>>>
>>>> Then if you DO find someone willing to ship to Hawaii, the cost jumps
>>>> from a few dollars for mainland shipping to perhaps $45 to get it here!
>>>>
>>>> It does NOT cost $45 to ship something like a disk drive here. The
>>>> company forces you to use their "selected" carrier like UPS or Fedex
>>>> and
>>>> they don't happen to deliver to this state for a reasonable charge. If
>>>> you ask them to use USPS flat rate shipping, they refuse. So they lose
>>>> a
>>>> sale. The same disk drive would fit in a flat rate box and ship to all
>>>> 50 states for $8.10 and be delivered in 3-5 business days. Sounds
>>>> logical but many companies seem oblivious to alternative shipping
>>>> methods that would actually make sense.
>>>>
>>>> When I set up my shopping cart to sell items and ship them from here, I
>>>> ran into a similar quandary. Many shopping carts do not have a lot of
>>>> smarts when it comes to shipping options. Even the best carts leave a
>>>> lot to be desired.
>>>>
>>>> I can ship up to 2 pounds of coffee in an envelope for $4.05 by USPS
>>>> flat rate. The weight of the item is not the determining factor; it is
>>>> the size. Will it fit in the bag? If someone buys more coffee, I can
>>>> fit
>>>> up to perhaps 6 or 7 pounds in a flat rate box for $8.10. In the cases
>>>> of USPS Flat Rate Priority shipments, the boxes are free. If I want to
>>>> ship by UPS or Fedex or regualr Post Office shipping, I may have to
>>>> supply the boxes (at a cost of a dollar or so extra).
>>>>
>>>> In the above examples, if I charge per pound, based upon regular
>>>> shipping rates, I end up overcharging the customer by a great deal,
>>>> because I can put a lot of stuff in that envelope or box.
>>>>
>>>> Since I can ship perhaps 7 pounds of coffee in a box for $8.10, should
>>>> I
>>>> just add $1.16 to each bag of coffee and lose money on each pound I
>>>> sell
>>>> just because they didn't order the stuff 7 pounds at a time?
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes I can put a small bag of coffee or a calendar in a 1st class
>>>> envelope and charge a dollar or so for actually shipping. However, each
>>>> item differs in size, weight and amount that can shipped for a price.
>>>>
>>>> In the grand scheme of things, I can try to create packages like 2
>>>> pounds of coffee and include the shipping in the cost. I can create a
>>>> package and encourage people to put in from 3 to 7 pounds because they
>>>> end up saving on shipping.
>>>>
>>>> So even when a shopping cart can charge based upon weight and/or number
>>>> off boxes and/or location to ship to and/or zone and/or country, it is
>>>> possible that the shipping cost is not going to be the actual charge.
>>>>
>>>> When I buy something I hate to see that the charge for shipping is a
>>>> lot
>>>> more than I know it should be. I also don't want to be led on with an
>>>> offer of FREE SHIPPING* and an asterisk that ends up being a charge of
>>>> $45 when I finally get to checkout.
>>>>
>>>> For those who might suggest that actual shipping costs be charged, we
>>>> vendors may not know that cost until the day of shipment, long after we
>>>> have debited your credit card. Are you willing to wait a couple of days
>>>> to see what the actual cost of an item is going to be? Doubtful.
>>>>
>>>> So in my case, I finally dropped the "FREE SHIPPING" option where as
>>>> you
>>>> know, shipping is not free but bundled into the price. I personally now
>>>> have shipping costs capped at a maximum of $3.00 (unless they get
>>>> creative and try to buy 50 pounds of stuff). On some item I will lose
>>>> money, buy by offering a shipping deal, I may sell a bit more coffee.
>>>> People love bargains.
>>>>
>>>> So yes, sometimes shipping costs are wrong and horrible and sometimes
>>>> the company does not care. In my own case, having been on the receiving
>>>> end of gouging, I have at least tried to make it more fair. When I saw
>>>> that a customer paid for shipping when they should not have, I dropped
>>>> an extra little bag of coffee into the box.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> They said that someone has to live in Hawaii and I raised my hand
>>>> first!
>>>
>>>test remark.
>>
>> Jesus wept. An idiot forging you is a bit redundant, don't you think?
>>
>> Brad
>
>

oops, sorry for the top post I think




 
Date: 16 Apr 2007 14:01:10
From: dcrehr
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
Another seller with a break on shipping is

http://morecoffee.com/

"Free shipping on most orders over $59."

I've bought from both these guys and coffeebean direct and am
satisfied. As I write, I am drinking some very freshly roasted Kenya
from morecoffee.com and its every bit what I'd expect of a nice snappy
good Kenya.

DR



On Apr 14, 12:16 pm, "Danny Joe" <harry.flashmansqu...@gmail.com >
wrote:
> "Old Godzilla" <godzi...@monsters.org> wrote in message
>
>
>
> These guys:
>
> http://www.coffeebeandirect.com/about.php
>
> have free shipping if you order more than 25 lbs of green
>
> I cannot attest to the quality, as I just ordered my first batch from them.
>
>



 
Date: 15 Apr 2007 11:37:33
From: Old Godzilla
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:22:42 +0000, Marshall wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:08:18 +0000, Old Godzilla
> <godzilla@monsters.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:23:39 +0000, Robert Harmon wrote:
>>
>>> Howdy Jack!
>>> Not to mention that if it's dry processed it's been exposed to the
>>> sub-equatorial sun for who knows how long. It's my understanding that while
>>> storing in a hot whorehouse isn't optimum the bean's worst enemy is
>>> moisture.
>>
>>Not having been in a hot whorehouse for a long time, I am unable to make
>>an objective comparison. ;-)
>>
>>However, if you have ever experienced a Texas summer, how long would you
>>last locked in a closed metal truck? (read that oven equivalent)
>
> In case you were thinking coffee travels on the B Deck of the Princess
> Lines, I don't think you would find the environs of a Central American
> wharfside warehouse or a container ship crossing the equator to be any
> improvement over a Texas summer.
>
> Marshall

I am reminded of the classic story:

Man in supermarket: "Four dollars and ninety-nine cents for this little
box of strawberries? That is obscene!

Clerk: "But sir, these strawberries came all the way from Florida!"

Man: "So?" "Did they have to take a taxi?"

***************************************************

The following quote is from Thomson Owen, owner of Sweet Maria's Coffee
regarding reasons that Tanzanian coffee most often does not arrive in the
best quality:

We cupped a bunch of peaberry lots and they had the typical
"transportation problems",
that is, coffee that had been baked or steamed in transit.

***************************************************

Assuming that all coffee has had varying degrees of poor storage
conditions before it reaches the dealer in the US, is it going to improve
further by letting it be subject to still more evil temperatures and lack
of humidity before reaching the end user? I think not.

Godzilla


  
Date: 15 Apr 2007 09:27:06
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
If the coffee has already spend 3 to 6 months in a hot warehouse at the
port, hot shipping container, another hot warehouse in New Orleans, etc.
then two more days won't make a noticeable difference, not enough to base a
buying decision on.

"Old Godzilla" <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote in message news:ac14> Assuming
that all coffee has had varying degrees of poor storage
> conditions before it reaches the dealer in the US, is it going to improve
> further by letting it be subject to still more evil temperatures and lack
> of humidity before reaching the end user? I think not.
>
> Godzilla
>




 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 23:08:18
From: Old Godzilla
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:23:39 +0000, Robert Harmon wrote:

> Howdy Jack!
> Not to mention that if it's dry processed it's been exposed to the
> sub-equatorial sun for who knows how long. It's my understanding that while
> storing in a hot whorehouse isn't optimum the bean's worst enemy is
> moisture.

Not having been in a hot whorehouse for a long time, I am unable to make
an objective comparison. ;-)

However, if you have ever experienced a Texas summer, how long would you
last locked in a closed metal truck? (read that oven equivalent)

If I wanted to buy roasted coffee, that is what I would order.
For five years plus I have been roasting my own, very happily.

Godzilla


  
Date: 14 Apr 2007 23:22:42
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:08:18 +0000, Old Godzilla
<godzilla@monsters.org > wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 18:23:39 +0000, Robert Harmon wrote:
>
>> Howdy Jack!
>> Not to mention that if it's dry processed it's been exposed to the
>> sub-equatorial sun for who knows how long. It's my understanding that while
>> storing in a hot whorehouse isn't optimum the bean's worst enemy is
>> moisture.
>
>Not having been in a hot whorehouse for a long time, I am unable to make
>an objective comparison. ;-)
>
>However, if you have ever experienced a Texas summer, how long would you
>last locked in a closed metal truck? (read that oven equivalent)

In case you were thinking coffee travels on the B Deck of the Princess
Lines, I don't think you would find the environs of a Central American
wharfside warehouse or a container ship crossing the equator to be any
improvement over a Texas summer.

Marshall


 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 22:12:11
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:31:23 +0000, Old Godzilla
<godzilla@monsters.org > wrote:

>Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
>almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
>dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:
>
>1. Sweet Maria's
> The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
> However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
> UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
> and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
> in the hot sun over a weekend.

You must be kidding. Think about where coffee comes from.

Marshall


 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 19:16:16
From: Danny Joe
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty

"Old Godzilla" <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote in message
news:f0832$4620f3cb$cf9b1316$32389@ALLTEL.NET...

<snip >
> Godzilla

These guys:

http://www.coffeebeandirect.com/about.php

have free shipping if you order more than 25 lbs of green

I cannot attest to the quality, as I just ordered my first batch from them.

Danny (I do slightly more than 1/2 # per week. So this will last a year!)
Joe




 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 18:57:00
From: The Other Funk
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
Finding the keyboard operational
Old Godzilla entered:


> What is the moral of the story? See what you can get away with,
> figuring that most people don't look or care? Or, be honest and
> perhaps
> gain a lot of future orders from satisfied customers.
>
> Godzilla

I don't get the concern over shipping times for green beans. After all they
spent weeks in a container getting to the US. Plus the time in the importers
warehouse.
On the topic of shipping costs, I am aware of 3 schools of thought.
1. Charge a high enough amount to make sure you don't lose anything on the
packaging, shipping and handling. You can also lower the price of your
product/s this way.
2. Charge actual shipping costs and put the packaging and handling costs in
to the product price.
3. Charge an incremental price. Say $5 for he first pound and $1 for each
additional pound.
I don't see that any of these methods are even close to being called
dishonest. The charges are fully disclosed before you pay Caveat Emptor.
Bob
--
--
Coffee worth staying up for – NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com



  
Date: 14 Apr 2007 21:35:17
From: Lavarock
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
The Other Funk wrote:

> On the topic of shipping costs, I am aware of 3 schools of thought.
> 1. Charge a high enough amount to make sure you don't lose anything on
> the packaging, shipping and handling. You can also lower the price of
> your product/s this way.
> 2. Charge actual shipping costs and put the packaging and handling costs
> in to the product price.
> 3. Charge an incremental price. Say $5 for he first pound and $1 for
> each additional pound.
> I don't see that any of these methods are even close to being called
> dishonest. The charges are fully disclosed before you pay Caveat Emptor.
> Bob
> --

The OTHER side of shipping...

I can tell you that shipping costs are the touchiest thing I know in
commerce.

Living in Hawaii I go to some websites that refuse to sell to anyone in
my state. Go to Microcenter.Com, put something in your basket and go to
checkout. Hawaii is not in the drop down box for a delivery address. So
try to cheat and have it delivered somewhere else but billed to you in
Hawaii, NOPE! Can't even buy something with a billing address here.

Then if you DO find someone willing to ship to Hawaii, the cost jumps
from a few dollars for mainland shipping to perhaps $45 to get it here!

It does NOT cost $45 to ship something like a disk drive here. The
company forces you to use their "selected" carrier like UPS or Fedex and
they don't happen to deliver to this state for a reasonable charge. If
you ask them to use USPS flat rate shipping, they refuse. So they lose a
sale. The same disk drive would fit in a flat rate box and ship to all
50 states for $8.10 and be delivered in 3-5 business days. Sounds
logical but many companies seem oblivious to alternative shipping
methods that would actually make sense.

When I set up my shopping cart to sell items and ship them from here, I
ran into a similar quandary. Many shopping carts do not have a lot of
smarts when it comes to shipping options. Even the best carts leave a
lot to be desired.

I can ship up to 2 pounds of coffee in an envelope for $4.05 by USPS
flat rate. The weight of the item is not the determining factor; it is
the size. Will it fit in the bag? If someone buys more coffee, I can fit
up to perhaps 6 or 7 pounds in a flat rate box for $8.10. In the cases
of USPS Flat Rate Priority shipments, the boxes are free. If I want to
ship by UPS or Fedex or regualr Post Office shipping, I may have to
supply the boxes (at a cost of a dollar or so extra).

In the above examples, if I charge per pound, based upon regular
shipping rates, I end up overcharging the customer by a great deal,
because I can put a lot of stuff in that envelope or box.

Since I can ship perhaps 7 pounds of coffee in a box for $8.10, should I
just add $1.16 to each bag of coffee and lose money on each pound I sell
just because they didn't order the stuff 7 pounds at a time?

Sometimes I can put a small bag of coffee or a calendar in a 1st class
envelope and charge a dollar or so for actually shipping. However, each
item differs in size, weight and amount that can shipped for a price.

In the grand scheme of things, I can try to create packages like 2
pounds of coffee and include the shipping in the cost. I can create a
package and encourage people to put in from 3 to 7 pounds because they
end up saving on shipping.

So even when a shopping cart can charge based upon weight and/or number
off boxes and/or location to ship to and/or zone and/or country, it is
possible that the shipping cost is not going to be the actual charge.

When I buy something I hate to see that the charge for shipping is a lot
more than I know it should be. I also don't want to be led on with an
offer of FREE SHIPPING* and an asterisk that ends up being a charge of
$45 when I finally get to checkout.

For those who might suggest that actual shipping costs be charged, we
vendors may not know that cost until the day of shipment, long after we
have debited your credit card. Are you willing to wait a couple of days
to see what the actual cost of an item is going to be? Doubtful.

So in my case, I finally dropped the "FREE SHIPPING" option where as you
know, shipping is not free but bundled into the price. I personally now
have shipping costs capped at a maximum of $3.00 (unless they get
creative and try to buy 50 pounds of stuff). On some item I will lose
money, buy by offering a shipping deal, I may sell a bit more coffee.
People love bargains.

So yes, sometimes shipping costs are wrong and horrible and sometimes
the company does not care. In my own case, having been on the receiving
end of gouging, I have at least tried to make it more fair. When I saw
that a customer paid for shipping when they should not have, I dropped
an extra little bag of coffee into the box.

--

They said that someone has to live in Hawaii and I raised my hand first!


 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 13:16:47
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
I'm not sure I understand your concern about "baking" the coffee. Maybe
George Howell is right and green coffee should be frozen, but it rarely is.
Chances are your green coffee has already spent many weeks or months
"baking" in the port, in the shipping container, in a warehouse, etc. and 2
more days of "baking" won't make a damn bit of difference.


"Old Godzilla" <godzilla@monsters.org > wrote in message
news:f0832$4620f3cb$cf9b1316$32389@ALLTEL.NET...
> Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
> almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
> dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:
>
> 1. Sweet Maria's
> The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
> However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
> UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
> and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
> in the hot sun over a weekend.
>
> 2. Burman Coffee
> They have given me excellent service on my recent orders.
> Their location in Madison, WI means a four day shipping time.
>
> 3. Coffee Wholesalers
> They are the only source that I know of for Malabar Gold,
> which is my current favorite for espresso and have had some
> excellent other coffees from them as well. But, they appear to be out of
> stock on many of their offerings, plus their Eugene, OR location
> means one day more in transit than Sweet Maria's - plus sitting over a
> weekend.
>
> 4. Dalton Coffee
> Located in Houston, TX only 200 miles from my ranch, which means only
> one or two days in transit. I sort of remembered why I stopped ordering
> from them, but decided to give it a try. Going to their website, I
> clicked on 1 lb. of beans and then took a peek at checkout. Without even
> knowing WHERE I am located they had already added a $10.50 shipping
> charge!
>
> 5. Intelligencia Coffee & Tea
> Never having ordered from them before, I do remember a number of coffee
> aficionados in this group speaking highly of them, in addition to some
> respectful words from Thom Owen of Sweet Maria's. There, I ordered three
> different 1 lb. bags of green plus 1/2 lb. of their Black Cat Espresso
> which has garnered much praise from a number of posters here.
> From Chicago to my little ranch in Texas, I am being charged $6.56
> which is the actual UPS charge, the same as the other HONEST places do.
>
> What is the moral of the story? See what you can get away with, figuring
> that most people don't look or care? Or, be honest and perhaps
> gain a lot of future orders from satisfied customers.
>
> Godzilla




  
Date: 14 Apr 2007 18:23:39
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
Howdy Jack!
Not to mention that if it's dry processed it's been exposed to the
sub-equatorial sun for who knows how long. It's my understanding that while
storing in a hot whorehouse isn't optimum the bean's worst enemy is
moisture.
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages
www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies.
www.tinyurl.com/37gwfr - I may have stuff available for sale here.

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:nIKdnXAkp9EdkbzbnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@comcast.com...
> I'm not sure I understand your concern about "baking" the coffee. Maybe
> George Howell is right and green coffee should be frozen, but it rarely
> is. Chances are your green coffee has already spent many weeks or months
> "baking" in the port, in the shipping container, in a warehouse, etc. and
> 2 more days of "baking" won't make a damn bit of difference.
>



   
Date: 14 Apr 2007 18:25:56
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
make that warehouse - don't know where my mind was at * don't really want to
know.

{;-)
--
Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages
www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies.
www.tinyurl.com/37gwfr - I may have stuff available for sale here.
"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:L_8Uh.697$j63.322@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Howdy Jack!
> Not to mention that if it's dry processed it's been exposed to the
> sub-equatorial sun for who knows how long. It's my understanding that
> while storing in a hot whorehouse isn't optimum the bean's worst enemy is
> moisture.
> --
> Robert (Gig 'em!) Harmon
> www.tinyurl.com/mb4uj - My coffee pages
> www.tinyurl.com/2tnv87 - Guidelines for newbies.
> www.tinyurl.com/37gwfr - I may have stuff available for sale here.
>
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:nIKdnXAkp9EdkbzbnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@comcast.com...
>> I'm not sure I understand your concern about "baking" the coffee. Maybe
>> George Howell is right and green coffee should be frozen, but it rarely
>> is. Chances are your green coffee has already spent many weeks or months
>> "baking" in the port, in the shipping container, in a warehouse, etc.
>> and 2 more days of "baking" won't make a damn bit of difference.
>>
>




 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 09:27:19
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Apr 14, 11:31 am, Old Godzilla <godzi...@monsters.org > wrote:
> Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
> almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
> dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:
>
> 1. Sweet Maria's
> The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
> However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
> UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
> and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
> in the hot sun over a weekend.
>
> 2. Burman Coffee
> They have given me excellent service on my recent orders.
> Their location in Madison, WI means a four day shipping time.
>
> 3. Coffee Wholesalers
> They are the only source that I know of for Malabar Gold,
> which is my current favorite for espresso and have had some
> excellent other coffees from them as well. But, they appear to be out of
> stock on many of their offerings, plus their Eugene, OR location
> means one day more in transit than Sweet Maria's - plus sitting over a
> weekend.
>
> 4. Dalton Coffee
> Located in Houston, TX only 200 miles from my ranch, which means only
> one or two days in transit. I sort of remembered why I stopped ordering
> from them, but decided to give it a try. Going to their website, I
> clicked on 1 lb. of beans and then took a peek at checkout. Without even
> knowing WHERE I am located they had already added a $10.50 shipping
> charge!
>
> 5. Intelligencia Coffee & Tea
> Never having ordered from them before, I do remember a number of coffee
> aficionados in this group speaking highly of them, in addition to some
> respectful words from Thom Owen of Sweet Maria's. There, I ordered three
> different 1 lb. bags of green plus 1/2 lb. of their Black Cat Espresso
> which has garnered much praise from a number of posters here.
> From Chicago to my little ranch in Texas, I am being charged $6.56
> which is the actual UPS charge, the same as the other HONEST places do.
>
> What is the moral of the story? See what you can get away with, figuring
> that most people don't look or care? Or, be honest and perhaps
> gain a lot of future orders from satisfied customers.

Although I buy SO, I've run into CCM from a favorable mention in
cupping literature (HB2). Probably none of the above - they seem to me
too advanced in age with no upstarts digging gold for the time being.
Easy enough going (though, they didn't take long to figure me for a
high/er-end espresso machine and a local rep's lit). Nice enough
setup. Green beans - I wouldn't think drydock storage time more an
issue [now being stored in the cupboard], than a modicum of business
sense for trading a fair value across quality. Can't do biz w/out
facilities. Guatemala and Costa Rica for the most, another 5#
Peaberry. Lacking a sense of distinction for more exotic SO regions,
decided to switch back to the Central Americas and a reputed clean
source for basic but good coffee flavors. All those fruity, nutty,
chocolattey claims seem too subtle for a pageful of descriptors.

https://www.ccmcoffee.com/index.php?cPath=21



 
Date: 14 Apr 2007 09:08:22
From: daveb
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Apr 14, 11:31 am, Old Godzilla <godzi...@monsters.org > wrote:
> Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
> almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
> dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:
>
> 1. Sweet Maria's
> The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
> However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
> UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
> and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
> in the hot sun over a weekend.


Why would having GREEN beans lying around be a problem?

dave



  
Date: 16 Apr 2007 01:10:16
From: Harry Ipema
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
Another typical inane response!

On 14 Apr 2007 09:08:22 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com > wrote:

>On Apr 14, 11:31 am, Old Godzilla <godzi...@monsters.org> wrote:
>> Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
>> almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
>> dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:
>>
>> 1. Sweet Maria's
>> The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
>> However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
>> UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
>> and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
>> in the hot sun over a weekend.
>
>
>Why would having GREEN beans lying around be a problem?
>
>dave


   
Date: 16 Apr 2007 01:37:18
From: *alan*
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty

"Harry Ipema" <ipema@teeitup.com > wrote in message
news:k5j52319mf7ssdimbb5nnkre40s4oqpt2q@4ax.com...
>
> On 14 Apr 2007 09:08:22 -0700, "daveb" <davebobblane@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Apr 14, 11:31 am, Old Godzilla <godzi...@monsters.org> wrote:
>>> Due to some unfortunate recent logistical occurrences, I found myself
>>> almost out of green beans for roasting.Reviewing my options, some of the
>>> dealers that I have ordered from in the past came to mind:
>>>
>>> 1. Sweet Maria's
>>> The best selection and a storehouse of coffee information.
>>> However, their location in Oakland, CA makes for a five day
>>> UPS journey to Texas. If they somehow are behind in shipping
>>> and it does not go out on a Monday, my order will sit baking
>>> in the hot sun over a weekend.
>>
>>
>>Why would having GREEN beans lying around be a problem?
>>
>>dave

[Harry's top-posting has been re-positioned]

> Another typical inane response!

1. You top-posted.

2. You need to review your English grammar.

3. There's nothing at all inane about daveb's comment.

4. Since this seems to be the first time you've posted here, it's not
possible to say whether or not your comment is typically inane. All one can
say is that it is singularly inane.

--
Alan

A: It runs counter to the normal flow of communication.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?



    
Date: 16 Apr 2007 08:34:45
From: Dan
Subject: Re: subtrefuge vs. honesty
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 01:37:18 GMT, "*alan*" <in_flagrante@hotmail.com >
wrote:

>--
>Alan
>
>A: It runs counter to the normal flow of communication.
>Q: What's wrong with top-posting?

Here's a sig I've seen similar to yours: lol

A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message.
Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

--
Regards,
Dan





     
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