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Date: 17 Jun 2007 04:34:10
From:
Subject: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
hello,

Few weeks away from opening a cafe'. Expecting to sell roughly 200
beverages per day. One distributor suggested buying two one group
machines instead of one two group machine. If the two group machine
needs service, we could loose 24 hrs worth of business, or more if a
rare part is needed. If a one group maching goes down, then we would
have at least one machine to get us through until the second machine
is serviced. Also, we expect to do a couple catering events or local
festivals in the off-season(we are a beachfront cafe) and the one
group machines run generally on 110 volts, rendering them better for
traveling, because not every destination will
have a 220 volt line available.
Another distributor suggested that using one two group machine is
preferrable, because the
two group machines carry larger boilers, and thus have a shorter
"recovery" time. I believe that both of these distributors are simply
pushing me in the direction of the company's that they deal with.
My question: Can't a one group machine make just as good espress as a
two group machine?
And, if two one group machines are used, can't we just alternate from
one espresso machine to the other in order to combat the longer
recovery time for the one group machines?
I am a coffee novice...so please be gentle.

Thanks
fabian





 
Date: 19 Jun 2007 17:13:37
From: 1st-line Equipment
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
> Are you talking about recovery speed between shots, or do you really mean to
> say that the service boiler size will affect the quality of a single
> espresso pull? If so, how? I don't have enough experience with HX machines
> to understand the mechanism by which this could happen.
>
> - David R.
> --

David,

Sorry, not sure what happened to yesterday's reply. My apologies to
the group if my replies both show up.

We recommend the two group for superior stability of temperature of
the espresso shot. One groups are ok for low volume. However, in a
coffee house, the demand for steam on two single group machines will
effect shot quality. The drain on steam capacity on a single group can
have an adverse effect on the shot quality - whereas a two group
machine will be more stable. Please undertsand that this not based on
scientific testing. This is based on experience in the field in both
coffeehouses and in espresso catering events (which we do a number of
per year) including bringing in 110v two group machines (2 people
required for these).

In addition, you have two pump pressures, two boiler pressures, etc to
deal with. This will also affect shot quality from shot to shot when
compared one single grouphead machine to the other. Hence, periodic
adjustments 'may' be needed for both machines to keep inline.

Finally, as for lugging around a 70 lb espresso machine, I agree that
a special vehicle is not needed. In most cases where we set up
customers for their espresso catering business, a midsize-to-large car
does fine.

Sincerely,
Jim
1st-line Equipment, LLC
http://www.1st-line.com



  
Date: 22 Jun 2007 15:12:06
From: Brent
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
> One groups are ok for low volume. However, in a
> coffee house, the demand for steam on two single group machines will
> effect shot quality. The drain on steam capacity on a single group can
> have an adverse effect on the shot quality - whereas a two group
> machine will be more stable. Please undertsand that this not based on
> scientific testing. This is based on experience in the field in both
> coffeehouses and in espresso catering events (which we do a number of
> per year) including bringing in 110v two group machines (2 people
> required for these).
>

that was my thinking...




 
Date: 18 Jun 2007 19:21:53
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?


The correct answer is:

get a 2-group 220v machine for the shop, and get a 1-group 110v
machine as catering/backup.

I'm also a bit concerned about your declaration of being a coffee
novice at the same time you're moments away from opening a coffee
shop....

--barry "not my money, though"


 
Date: 18 Jun 2007 06:29:32
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
On Jun 17, 7:40 pm, r...@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu (D. Ross) wrote:
>


  
Date: 19 Jun 2007 10:08:06
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
Flasherly <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote:



 
Date: 18 Jun 2007 06:15:22
From:
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
Coming from the restaurant trade, in our place a one group struggled
to keep up. i can't imagine two single groups keeping up in a cafe.
Search in this forum for sources of in formation on opening a new cafe
and on training. There are a lot of books dvds etc that will help you
get started. Consider joining the SCAA, one final point the service
that the supplier provides is as important as the machine they sell.
Good Luck.



 
Date: 18 Jun 2007 08:45:36
From: daveb
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
An excellent Idea -- get 2 units. avoid rancilio commercial units


dave
www.hitechespresso.com




  
Date: 18 Jun 2007 18:10:15
From: Danny
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
daveb wrote:
> An excellent Idea -- get 2 units. avoid rancilio commercial units
>
>
> dave
> www.hitechespresso.com
>
>

Get a Rancillio Epocha 2 group :)

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 17 Jun 2007 13:07:40
From: 1st-line Equipment
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
Fabian,

This is a good topic for new coffeehouse owners. Some comments are
interjected below.

> Few weeks away from opening a cafe'. Expecting to sell roughly 200
> beverages per day. One distributor suggested buying two one group
> machines instead of one two group machine. If the two group machine
> needs service, we could loose 24 hrs worth of business, or more if a
> rare part is needed. If a one group maching goes down, then we would
> have at least one machine to get us through until the second machine
> is serviced. Also, we expect to do a couple catering events or local
> festivals in the off-season(we are a beachfront cafe) and the one
> group machines run generally on 110 volts, rendering them better for
> traveling, because not every destination will
> have a 220 volt line available.

If you are not going to provide offsite catering services, a one two
group espresso machine would be advantageous as a 220v machine runs
more efficiently, and typically, there is more capacity. As far as
buying spare parts, I can not suggest this unless someone in shop can
diagnose the problem. Having an extra heating element, gaskets, etc
would be fine, but would not be worthwhile if the brain unit or the
power switch fails.

Since you mention offisite espresso catering, you will need a 110v
machine. We do espresso catering in the NY metro area, and it is rare
that 220v is availabel for office parties, home parties, etc. Hence,
the distributor maing the recommendation for 2 machines is providing a
solution to meet this need.


> Another distributor suggested that using one two group machine is
> preferrable, because the
> two group machines carry larger boilers, and thus have a shorter
> "recovery" time. I believe that both of these distributors are simply
> pushing me in the direction of the company's that they deal with.
> My question: Can't a one group machine make just as good espress as a
> two group machine?

This really depends. A 2 group will generally make a superior espresso
due to a larger boiler. However, if the heat exchange to grouphead
pipes are of different sizes for each grouphead, then one side will
not come out as good as or different from the other side.

> And, if two one group machines are used, can't we just alternate from
> one espresso machine to the other in order to combat the longer
> recovery time for the one group machines?
> I am a coffee novice...so please be gentle.

The answer is yes. We just recently did an espresso machine
installation at a restaurant with three floors. The intention of the
owner was to start with a sinlge group machine on the main floor, and
when the espresso business grows, an additional single group espresso
machine will be added on each floor.

As previously suggested, intensive training is essential before you
open. best of luck in the new enterprise.

Sincerely,
Jim
1st-line Equipment, LLC
http://www.1st-line.com





  
Date: 17 Jun 2007 23:52:36
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
Jim,

Could you elaborate on the following:



 
Date: 17 Jun 2007 10:40:12
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
On Jun 17, 12:34 am, smileys...@gmail.com wrote:
> hello,
>
> Few weeks away from opening a cafe'. Expecting to sell roughly 200
> beverages per day. One distributor suggested buying two one group
> machines instead of one two group machine. If the two group machine
> needs service, we could loose 24 hrs worth of business, or more if a
> rare part is needed. If a one group maching goes down, then we would
> have at least one machine to get us through until the second machine
> is serviced. Also, we expect to do a couple catering events or local
> festivals in the off-season(we are a beachfront cafe) and the one
> group machines run generally on 110 volts, rendering them better for
> traveling, because not every destination will
> have a 220 volt line available.
> Another distributor suggested that using one two group machine is
> preferrable, because the
> two group machines carry larger boilers, and thus have a shorter
> "recovery" time. I believe that both of these distributors are simply
> pushing me in the direction of the company's that they deal with.
> My question: Can't a one group machine make just as good espress as a
> two group machine?
> And, if two one group machines are used, can't we just alternate from
> one espresso machine to the other in order to combat the longer
> recovery time for the one group machines?
> I am a coffee novice...so please be gentle.
>
> Thanks
> fabian

Sounds like you're already leaning towards one-group machines. Plus,
you may be having to learn it by the "bootstraps" - invention is the
mother of necessity.

A small 110V Gaggia single boiler will take care of the turn around
aspect. They've two heater elements and probably draw enough to trip
the fuses if you're running several from a wiring leg. Two elements,
oth, means there's effectively no waiting.

Not commercial, bump it too hard, it breaks;- walk away, forget to
turn it off, it burns up or melts down, whichever comes first. But
then they're likely cheaper by the dozen. Suitable machine for
"getting your feet wet". Easy in. . . You won't be sweating bullets
if you can manage a couple dozen acceptable $6 pulls -- Ah, yes, such
a balmy night after a dreadfully dreary a day, positively scorching.
I say, what a jolly refresher this is, at last;- a spot of the ol'
Gulf breeze is top notch. Oh, and waiter - please don't forget to
make that a lungo;- an Harrar or aged Java will do nicely. Yes,
yes. . .do carry on, my good fellow.

Hiring any entertainment, stand-up acts, dancing comedians?



  
Date: 17 Jun 2007 23:40:02
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?


   
Date: 18 Jun 2007 06:26:55
From: Danny
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
D. Ross wrote:

> No no no no no, flasherly, you've got to stop giving advice on things where
> you have no knowledge at all. No home Gaggia machine is even remotely
> suitable for commercial use, under any circumstances, period.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. I've been watching this thread, and couldn't
be bothered to give any input, since the choice of a 2 group
commercial machine or two 1 group commercial machines didn't make much
difference in my mind, except that I wouldn't even consider the second
option :) I agree with Jim, but for different reasons, that the
larger boiler of a two group (preferably on 220v) would be
preferential (mostly just for the hot water aspect). Flasherlys'
advice to use domestic machines in any commercial environment is
disastrous.

If the OP is considering any outside events then a suitable 220v
generator doesn't cost that much these days. I could actually run my
entire trailer (30 amps) on a decent diesel generator.

In a way, the advice to use two machines for redundancy is misleading,
since there will be duplicity of many components to go wrong - 2
pressurestats, autofills, brains etc. I carry sufficient spares to
cover the most likely failure modes.

--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



    
Date: 18 Jun 2007 08:47:21
From: daveb
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
WHY use a generator when 120 volts is available.

Stink, polution, noise, extension cords, HUGE hassle.


"Danny" <danny@nospam.gaggia-espresso.com > wrote in message
news:5dmjd4F34vf18U1@mid.individual.net...
> D. Ross wrote:
>
>> No no no no no, flasherly, you've got to stop giving advice on things
>> where
>> you have no knowledge at all. No home Gaggia machine is even remotely
>> suitable for commercial use, under any circumstances, period.
>
> Agreed, wholeheartedly. I've been watching this thread, and couldn't be
> bothered to give any input, since the choice of a 2 group commercial
> machine or two 1 group commercial machines didn't make much difference in
> my mind, except that I wouldn't even consider the second option :) I
> agree with Jim, but for different reasons, that the larger boiler of a two
> group (preferably on 220v) would be preferential (mostly just for the hot
> water aspect). Flasherlys' advice to use domestic machines in any
> commercial environment is disastrous.
>
> If the OP is considering any outside events then a suitable 220v generator
> doesn't cost that much these days. I could actually run my entire trailer
> (30 amps) on a decent diesel generator.
>
> In a way, the advice to use two machines for redundancy is misleading,
> since there will be duplicity of many components to go wrong - 2
> pressurestats, autofills, brains etc. I carry sufficient spares to cover
> the most likely failure modes.
>
> --
> Regards, Danny
>
> http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
> (apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)
>




     
Date: 22 Jun 2007 15:11:00
From: Brent
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
> WHY use a generator when 120 volts is available.
>
> Stink, polution, noise, extension cords, HUGE hassle.
>
>

should only be one extension cord from the generator to where you are
working...

my record was about 600 power leads in one small area, from three power
outlets - thats when hassle perhaps starts to be a factor (the other guy had
about 50 leads, and the other corwd about 20 - but they had there own
outlets...)

The only time I found a generator to be a problem was when someone used the
wrong generator. There was no smell, minimal noise, and I was drawing about
40k per generator. The only pollution was when we got the landrover stuck on
the beach in the sand in two wheel drive mode - andthat was easily fixed :)




     
Date: 18 Jun 2007 18:09:08
From: Danny
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
daveb wrote:
> WHY use a generator when 120 volts is available.
>
> Stink, polution, noise, extension cords, HUGE hassle.
>
>



Because 220v is far better, especially in a commercial 2 group machine
(we have proper electricity here).

120v isn't always available there when the OP is attending events.


--
Regards, Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
(apparently bad grammar but I like it that way...)



 
Date: 17 Jun 2007 07:15:47
From: bernie
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
smileyskim@gmail.com wrote:
> hello,
>
> Few weeks away from opening a cafe'. Expecting to sell roughly 200
> beverages per day. One distributor suggested buying two one group
> machines instead of one two group machine. If the two group machine
> needs service, we could loose 24 hrs worth of business, or more if a
> rare part is needed. If a one group maching goes down, then we would
> have at least one machine to get us through until the second machine
> is serviced. Also, we expect to do a couple catering events or local
> festivals in the off-season(we are a beachfront cafe) and the one
> group machines run generally on 110 volts, rendering them better for
> traveling, because not every destination will
> have a 220 volt line available.
> Another distributor suggested that using one two group machine is
> preferrable, because the
> two group machines carry larger boilers, and thus have a shorter
> "recovery" time. I believe that both of these distributors are simply
> pushing me in the direction of the company's that they deal with.
> My question: Can't a one group machine make just as good espress as a
> two group machine?
> And, if two one group machines are used, can't we just alternate from
> one espresso machine to the other in order to combat the longer
> recovery time for the one group machines?
> I am a coffee novice...so please be gentle.
>
> Thanks
> fabian
>

I sell espresso machines on occassion and am familiar with the
argument. Did your equipment distributor suggest you buy two stoves in
case one broke? Or two freezers? You get the drift. Buy one machine and
if you get to the point you need more volume by a second. If you buy a
spare parts kit of select gaskets, heating elements, vacuum breaker, etc
you will be fine. I share Ken's concern about your familiarity with the
enterprise. If you are a few weeks from opening you should have the
espresso machine in place and staff training. I train staff at my store
for weeks before they are allowed to produce drinks for customers. The
steaming of milk can take longer than the pulling of shots in some
cases. Best of luck.
Bernie


 
Date: 17 Jun 2007 01:08:34
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: two 1 group machines vs. one 2 group?
<smileyskim@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1182054850.725467.7630@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> hello,
>
> Few weeks away from opening a cafe'. Expecting to sell roughly 200
> beverages per day. One distributor suggested buying two one group
> machines instead of one two group machine. If the two group machine
> needs service, we could loose 24 hrs worth of business, or more if a
> rare part is needed. If a one group maching goes down, then we would
> have at least one machine to get us through until the second machine
> is serviced. Also, we expect to do a couple catering events or local
> festivals in the off-season(we are a beachfront cafe) and the one
> group machines run generally on 110 volts, rendering them better for
> traveling, because not every destination will
> have a 220 volt line available.
> Another distributor suggested that using one two group machine is
> preferrable, because the
> two group machines carry larger boilers, and thus have a shorter
> "recovery" time. I believe that both of these distributors are simply
> pushing me in the direction of the company's that they deal with.
> My question: Can't a one group machine make just as good espress as a
> two group machine?
> And, if two one group machines are used, can't we just alternate from
> one espresso machine to the other in order to combat the longer
> recovery time for the one group machines?
> I am a coffee novice...so please be gentle.
>
> Thanks
> fabian
>

You could probably get by with either.

What concerns me is that it appears on first blush that you have gotten a
bit ahead of yourself, in being just about ready to open a cafe, without
what appears (to me) to be the requisite understanding of the business you
are getting into. At its best, running a cafe is a high volume but low
margin business. If you do not have someone else in your organization on
board, who has the background necessary to successfully run this sort of
business, you should rethink your strategy before proceeding. If you had
someone like that onboard, I think you would be asking that person this
question rather than posting it in a usenet newsgroup, seeking information
from people whom you do not know.

These reservations would apply whether you were attempting to cater to the
high end quality conscious end of the business, or customers who mistakenly
think they fit into that group. Regardless of which sectors your business
is aimed at, unless you have a better grasp of this business than you have
displayed in your email, I suggest that you proceed with caution.

ken