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Date: 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55
From: Robert Harmon
Subject: what's in a name?
I've been watching the bids on eBay for products from Quality Espresso of
Spain. These include Gaggia, Futurmat, Italcrem, Visacrem, Mairali, Bunn, &
others. I've noticed that when an Italcrem, Mairali, or Visacrem gets listed
the bids are higher than for a Futurmat or Gaggia (and forget about the
Bunn, no one seems to want them). What makes this truly interesting is that
except for the label & color schemes these are usually the same machines
with interchangeable parts.

Now I'm well known for my pecuniary habits; that I squeeze every dollar
until the eye bleeds so maybe I'm missing something here. Does a label or
color scheme really make a difference when pulling a shot of espresso or do
you think that maybe people are throwing their money around without doing
their homework?

I've often asked the same question about Gaggia semi-auto machines. From the
Espresso to the Classic every Gaggia consumer machine has the same espresso
making parts. Repeat - They have the same parts. So why would someone opt
for a $500 Classic when they'll get the same shot from a $200 Espresso? It's
always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300 for a
stainless steel finish.

Go figure?
--
Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
http://tinyurl.com/psfob
http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r






 
Date: 18 Oct 2006 12:37:01
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?

Jack Denver wrote:
> Keep in mind that you need to maintain the rated clearances from flammables
> on commercial stoves so you can't put them right next to your cabinets.
> They also usually lack insulation in the oven so they will also heat up your
> kitchen real good. Also lack the "convenience" features people are used to -
> self cleaning, sealed burners, timers, etc. But if you have the space they
> are great to cook on - they have the power that even the overpriced Vikings,
> etc. don't.

All true. Almost all of them sit on 6" legs, too, so they won't match
your cabinets which are 4".

If you are considering a "big" range, go for a balls-to-the-wall
commercial as opposed to a look-alike such as a Viking. No difference
in price and a huge difference in quality.

Of course then there is the matter of the commercial hood and fire
suppression system. You can go without it...but I wouldn't. A
malfunctioning domestic range will fill your kitchen with smoke. A
malfunctioning commercial range will leave you sleeping at the
Salvation Army.



 
Date: 12 Oct 2006 07:09:15
From: Omniryx@gmail.com
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
I have a big Garland and I love it. I bought it from a McMansion
matron who decided that "all that shiny steel" didn't look good in her
never-to-be-used kitchen. Paid about a dime on the dollar and the best
kitchen investment I ever made.

Someone asked about shower hoses that hang over the sink. Yes, I have
one of those, as well--similarly purchased for pennies on the
dollar--and it works wonderfully well...but only if you have a big,
deep, commerical sink. Otherwise all you will do is douse yourself and
the floor.

Will
(Who attended the Culinary Institute of America during his misguided
youth and has never fully recovered)



Barry Jarrett wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:10:18 GMT, shall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
> >stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout.
>
> june wants an AGA, but, in the meantime, we've got a six-burner
> commercial stove downstairs, awaiting reassembly.
>
> --barry "$50 @ restaurant auction"



 
Date: 11 Oct 2006 18:57:26
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

> do
> you think that maybe people are throwing their money around without doing
> their homework?

Using beer as an example :
Bud in the UK is made in the Midlands
Kingfisher in the US is made in New Jersey
Sapporo in the US is made in Guelph Ontario

None taste anything remotely like the original, but punters willing
put down 3quid for a 12oz Bud and tell you how much they like American
beer [an oxymoron if there there was] when they could have a great
pint for 1, simply because they think it makes them look cool.

The cigarette industry has capitalized on this basic insecurity since
day 1.

How many of us have endured 'coffee' or 'espresso' at trendy friend's
that we would toss down the sink at home. A relative had a Pasquini
Livia and Braun whirly grinder. Another, a pro 2 group machine and no
grinder. Both simply because they could afford it and having an
espresso machine is cool.

People buy labels because they lack confidence in their ability to
make an informed decision.


  
Date: 11 Oct 2006 19:33:25
From: DougW
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
> <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> do
>> you think that maybe people are throwing their money around without
>> doing their homework?
>
> Using beer as an example :
> Bud in the UK is made in the Midlands
> Kingfisher in the US is made in New Jersey
> Sapporo in the US is made in Guelph Ontario

I like Kirin or Sapporo Dark.

> None taste anything remotely like the original, but punters willing
> put down 3quid for a 12oz Bud and tell you how much they like American
> beer [an oxymoron if there there was] when they could have a great
> pint for 1, simply because they think it makes them look cool.

Amazing. When traveling the last thing I would drink is an "American" beer.
Or actually, any beer that was not locally produced. The Peroni in Italy is
so much better than the Peroni here in the US. As are the German and Czech
beers. Sorry to say I never found a good beer in England or Scotland. :/
But that's ok, I survived on single malt scotch. :)

*sips a nice Dalmore 28*

Around here the "imports" cost about 6$ up to 12$ when domestic (Bud, Coors, Miller)
cost about $2. Then again, I've been to the Budweiser and Coors breweries and
fresh beer tastes so much better.

*sigh* Alas I must admit to being a punter on occassion. I do like Chimay and
thankfully it's a true import with great ability to survive travel. Although
being seen with the gold-rimmed glass only says, "I payed 20$ for this beer."

One of my Haunts: http://www.tapwerks.com/
We also have local brewries, but sadly Oklahoma law limits the alcohol
to 3.2% so taste is "iffy".

--
DougW




 
Date: 10 Oct 2006 21:04:35
From: Heat + Beans
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Even takeout can get worse in a crappy oven. If I only bought what I
needed, deserved, and was st enough to know the difference, it would
be just me, my Aeropress, and a George Foreman.
tin


shall wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
> <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I've often asked the same question about Gaggia semi-auto machines. From the
> >Espresso to the Classic every Gaggia consumer machine has the same espresso
> >making parts. Repeat - They have the same parts. So why would someone opt
> >for a $500 Classic when they'll get the same shot from a $200 Espresso? It's
> >always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300 for a
> >stainless steel finish.
>
> It's not just a stainless "finish." It's the whole case. Plastic
> espresso machines don't look so nice in today's uber showplace
> kitchens.
>
> At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
> stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout.
>
> shall



 
Date: 11 Oct 2006 03:10:18
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>I've often asked the same question about Gaggia semi-auto machines. From the
>Espresso to the Classic every Gaggia consumer machine has the same espresso
>making parts. Repeat - They have the same parts. So why would someone opt
>for a $500 Classic when they'll get the same shot from a $200 Espresso? It's
>always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300 for a
>stainless steel finish.

It's not just a stainless "finish." It's the whole case. Plastic
espresso machines don't look so nice in today's uber showplace
kitchens.

At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout.

shall


  
Date: 12 Oct 2006 02:36:11
From: Barry Jarrett
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:10:18 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
>stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout.

june wants an AGA, but, in the meantime, we've got a six-burner
commercial stove downstairs, awaiting reassembly.

--barry "$50 @ restaurant auction"


   
Date: 18 Oct 2006 10:05:48
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
AGAs are great if you live in England where it's 50 degrees F in July... in
the hot humid midwest you're not going to want to have this huge mass
radiating heat 24/7 when its warm out (almost 1/2 the year). Then again if
you afford an AGA you can afford the air conditioning bill and/or to have a
second stove for the summer.

Keep in mind that you need to maintain the rated clearances from flammables
on commercial stoves so you can't put them right next to your cabinets.
They also usually lack insulation in the oven so they will also heat up your
kitchen real good. Also lack the "convenience" features people are used to -
self cleaning, sealed burners, timers, etc. But if you have the space they
are great to cook on - they have the power that even the overpriced Vikings,
etc. don't.

"Barry Jarrett" <barry@rileys-coffee.com > wrote in message
news:pbari2pf60uusrnuv35fmf5193vlp909lt@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:10:18 GMT, shall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
> >stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout.
>
> june wants an AGA, but, in the meantime, we've got a six-burner
> commercial stove downstairs, awaiting reassembly.
>
> --barry "$50 @ restaurant auction"




  
Date: 11 Oct 2006 04:23:17
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:10:18 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
>stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout

A pox on you and your progeny. ;-)
The only thing that goes in our oven was made from scratch here!

Never understood takeout. Mediocre food gone cold that has absorbed
congealed grease and the taste of the package. Better to have mediocre
food served hot by someone soon to famousl.


  
Date: 10 Oct 2006 20:35:35
From:
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:10:18 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
><r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've often asked the same question about Gaggia semi-auto machines. From the
>>Espresso to the Classic every Gaggia consumer machine has the same espresso
>>making parts. Repeat - They have the same parts. So why would someone opt
>>for a $500 Classic when they'll get the same shot from a $200 Espresso? It's
>>always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300 for a
>>stainless steel finish.
>
>It's not just a stainless "finish." It's the whole case. Plastic
>espresso machines don't look so nice in today's uber showplace
>kitchens.
>
>At least the stainless machines actually get used, unlike all those
>stainless Viking ovens that are only opened to re-heat takeout.
>
>shall


Hey, I use my Viking almost every day. Then again, it's white, not
stainless. Think that makes a difference?

Interesting, because when we bought it, the love of my life wanted
stainless. I held out for white. Just about the only decision I was
allowed to make in the whole ktichen thing. Never regretted it.
Neither of us.

My favorite bit of useless kitchen show is the spring loaded, hung
from on high, fire-hose-style faucet. Does anyone actually use those
things?

More to the point, for me a nicely designed tool is a small joy every
time I use it. I like the look and feel of quality materials and
quality design and try to buy the best design I can afford. Worth the
few bucks every time. Of course, you will save a bit buying a
tacky-looking, dinky-feeling, plastic-encased espresso machine; and,
that savings may be the thing that give you that bit of joy every time
you use it.








_______________________________________
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offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
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Date: 10 Oct 2006 18:47:26
From: Harry Moos
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
Not at all hard to understand. This is a hobby. It's not supposed to make
sense. I just made the switch from a Gaggia Coffee to a Silvia, but it was
a tossup with the Gaggia Classic. Stainless steel was a big part of it.
The 3-way solenoid was another consideration. The aluminum vs. brass boiler
was the deciding factor. So far, the espresso isn't any better, but it sure
looks nice on the counter and it's easier to clean up. I always worried
about rusting with the Gaggia, so I was really careful about drying it every
time. [I do wish I could see the water level in the Silvia.]

I think many of us long for something really nice, even if we can't have
everything nice. One thing that puts us on the same level of luxury as our
wealthier peers. The espresso machine may be that something. After all,
it's not exactly a basic appliance in every kitchen. I always laugh at the
common keting text of "save money by making espresso at home." At
seventy-one, I could have espresso out every day for the rest of my life for
less than the cost of all the paraphanalia [grinder, roaster, cups and
pitchers, etc] I have collected. At most, I brew about 8-10 doubles a week.
But there is the challenge, the suspense, the elation of a great
shot.....that seems to justify it all.

"Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote in message
news:T1WWg.12346$UG4.7828@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> It's always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300 for a
> stainless steel finish.
>
> Go figure?
> --
> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>




  
Date: 10 Oct 2006 20:06:05
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: what's in a name?

"Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net > wrote in message
news:8tCdnfjLYoOWrLHYnZ2dnUVZ_oednZ2d@news.ruraltel.net...
> Not at all hard to understand. This is a hobby. It's not supposed to
> make sense. I just made the switch from a Gaggia Coffee to a Silvia,
> but it was a tossup with the Gaggia Classic. Stainless steel was a
> big part of it. The 3-way solenoid was another consideration. The
> aluminum vs. brass boiler was the deciding factor.

> So far, the espresso isn't any better, but it sure looks nice on the
> counter and it's easier to clean up.


Oh, trust me., it WILL be!! {;-D
Craig.


> I always worried about rusting with the Gaggia, so I was really
> careful about drying it every time. [I do wish I could see the water
> level in the Silvia.]
>
> I think many of us long for something really nice, even if we can't
> have everything nice. One thing that puts us on the same level of
> luxury as our wealthier peers. The espresso machine may be that
> something. After all, it's not exactly a basic appliance in every
> kitchen. I always laugh at the common keting text of "save money
> by making espresso at home." At seventy-one, I could have espresso
> out every day for the rest of my life for less than the cost of all
> the paraphanalia [grinder, roaster, cups and pitchers, etc] I have
> collected. At most, I brew about 8-10 doubles a week. But there is
> the challenge, the suspense, the elation of a great shot.....that
> seems to justify it all.
>
> "Robert Harmon" <r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:T1WWg.12346$UG4.7828@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>> It's always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300
>> for a stainless steel finish.
>>
>> Go figure?
>> --
>> Robert (duck & cover) Harmon
>> http://tinyurl.com/pou2y
>> http://tinyurl.com/psfob
>> http://tinyurl.com/fkd6r
>>
>
>



  
Date: 11 Oct 2006 00:03:43
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:47:26 -0500, "Harry Moos" <harrym@ruraltel.net >
wrote:

>"save money by making espresso at home."

Over our morning cuppa Joe on Sunday, the missus asked, "So just how
much a cup is this...?"

"Round figures, ~$300.00"

She didn't even bat an eye.


 
Date: 10 Oct 2006 23:38:20
From: I->Ian
Subject: Re: what's in a name?
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:29:55 GMT, "Robert Harmon"
<r_h_harmon@Zhotmail.com > wrote:

>I've been watching the bids on eBay for products from Quality Espresso of
>Spain. These include Gaggia, Futurmat, Italcrem, Visacrem, Mairali, Bunn, &
>others. I've noticed that when an Italcrem, Mairali, or Visacrem gets listed
>the bids are higher than for a Futurmat or Gaggia (and forget about the
>Bunn, no one seems to want them). What makes this truly interesting is that
>except for the label & color schemes these are usually the same machines
>with interchangeable parts.
>
>Now I'm well known for my pecuniary habits; that I squeeze every dollar
>until the eye bleeds so maybe I'm missing something here. Does a label or
>color scheme really make a difference when pulling a shot of espresso or do
>you think that maybe people are throwing their money around without doing
>their homework?
>
>I've often asked the same question about Gaggia semi-auto machines. From the
>Espresso to the Classic every Gaggia consumer machine has the same espresso
>making parts. Repeat - They have the same parts. So why would someone opt
>for a $500 Classic when they'll get the same shot from a $200 Espresso? It's
>always baffled me that someone would plunk down an extra $300 for a
>stainless steel finish.
>
>Go figure?

Reminds me of the answer a GM mouthpiece gave when asked the
difference between a Chevy Cavalier and a Cadillac Ciron

"About $5,000"

People do all kinds of stupid things for stupid reasons...