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Date: 26 Mar 2007 11:47:37
From: John B
Subject: why you need a knockbox
Who knew that a knockbox was so important?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rj8VYV4sTo





 
Date: 30 Mar 2007 20:28:07
From: Felix
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Jack Denver writes:
> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of
> stainless stuff come out of India) stuff will eventually
> drive the better stuff pretty much off the ket - it's
> the old 80/20 rules - if you can produce something
> that is 80% as good for 20% of the price, most
> people will overlook the 20% loss in functionality.

Risky generalization ... Steam table pans are simple things, and
Chinese stainless can be excellent. For example, Vollrath's Intrigue
cookware is definitely commercial grade. I have another Chinese pot
that I use almost daily. It's comparable to the discontinued Cuisinart
Everyday series (made in Korea for a while), quite adequate for most
kitchens.

> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has
> it's uses [...] I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like
> for lasagna.

Pillivuyt is a reputable brand, and their porcelain baker costs over
$70, whereas HIC's costs less than $20. Given porcelain's history, and
the quality of HIC's mortar/pestle set, I'd buy the Chinese one
without hesitation. (But I'd bake lasagna in your roaster pan instead.
9x13 isn't enough :-)

> If the ones you bought this week are too thin to
> really bake in [...]

22 gauge Vollrath, like the ones I used to own. They'll be fine ...
Vollrath's problem isn't competition from goods made in Asia. Their
Intrigue line demonstrates that they're quite capable of playing that
game. The perceived need for change induces companies to constantly
revise their offerings. Vollrath's Super Pan III competes against
Super Pan II. How can they win?


Felix



 
Date: 30 Mar 2007 20:46:23
From: RoughJaw
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Fri, 30 2007 13:21:47 -0700, daveb wrote:

>> ... I've never seen or felt the need for an alias/s
>> Craig.
>
> For some reason 'ol "Jack" does, Craig.
>
> He told me once, when I met him in Philly, but I did not comprehend the
> reason.

Think harder, Miss Penny, et al.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



 
Date: 30 Mar 2007 13:21:47
From: daveb
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

> Ok, fine. I aways though that was your real name.., but I have read here
> that you said it wasn't. "You're sick of telling it", I've been here
> almost 6 1/2 years & don't recall the story. I've never seen or felt the
> need for an alias/s
> Craig.

For some reason 'ol "Jack" does, Craig.

He told me once, when I met him in Philly, but I did not comprehend
the reason.

dave



 
Date: 29 Mar 2007 20:34:41
From: Felix
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> Stainless steel is a lousy material for baking -
> glass works well as does dark colored metal -
> the idea is to let IR thru or at least absorb it.
> Shiny materials reflect the heat and result in
> palid baked goods.

In spite of my recent purchase, I agree. Though stainless steam table
pans aren't especially shiny, they aren't good for all baking needs.
On the other hand, many dishes aren't that demanding. All of the pans
I bought are 2.5" high. They replace ones I owned earlier, and my
experience with them was quite positive.

> It's true that you'll lose some glass pans to
> breakage but they are cheap - Keep hot glass
> away from cold liquids.

They don't break that often, and many of the losses are preventable.
The ones that aren't are quite inconvenient.

You noticed that I wrote: "Buying steam table pans is more interesting
than it used to be, now that Chinese ones are available." Partly
because of these products, Vollrath is trying to induce people to buy
fancier designs, while it seems to be discontinuing its older ones.
Their web site doesn't list the plain pans I just bought. It looks
like one of those now-or-never shopping situations, because the eBay
lots aren't that appealing and sometimes the winning bids are rather
high. (I think they are also quietly discontinuing their Intrigue
cookware line, which is a shame.)

Glass pans are a great value, but my stainless ones don't cost that
much more, and they're virtually indestructible. For not much more,
you can buy a 13"x9" porcelain baker that's probably quite nice. So
there are good choices, and maybe there will be more before long, but
the pans I bought this week might not be among them.


Felix



  
Date: 30 Mar 2007 12:37:26
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and it does
have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that I have used for
many years and it is good as new. It has very low sides and so doesn't
interfere with browning.

I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless stuff come
out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better stuff pretty much off
the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if you can produce something that is
80% as good for 20% of the price, most people will overlook the 20% loss in
functionality. I've bought stainless mixing bowls made in India for as
little as $1. Vollrath couldn't sell you a US made aluminum foil pan for
that price. Yes they are light gauge but how heavy does something have to be
to hold liquid? For the intended use of a steam table pan (sitting over
water) there is no big advantage to thickness.

It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking right when
they are full of food that you are about to bring to the table for a holiday
meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5 liter Corningware (which is actually a
form of glass) casserole full of sweet potatoes last Thanksgiving, pushed it
right off the end of the counter. To add insult to injury, they don't make
"real" Corningware anymore. Corning sold the name and the new owners make
stoneware in China (not stovetop safe) and call it "Corningware". The
closest thing that is left in production is Corning's "Vision" line (which
despite being clear is actually a close cousin to the old Corningware) but
it is very pricey - a 5L Visions dutch oven is $90. Again the 80/20 rule -
most people don't use Corningware on top of the stove so they'll go for the
$20 stoneware version instead. I did.

Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses - souffles,
bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for lasagna. For
certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually an advantage. Enameled
cast iron is also great but it can chip and the larger pieces weigh a ton
even empty.

In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's applications so
your best bet is always to have an assortment and use the one that matches
the task at hand the best. If the ones you bought this week are too thin to
really bake in directly you could use them in a water bath (bain ie) to
make baked puddings, etc. - they will be great for that.







"Felix" <felixyen@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175225681.870585.69100@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net> wrote:
> In spite of my recent purchase, I agree. Though stainless steam table
> pans aren't especially shiny, they aren't good for all baking needs.
> On the other hand, many dishes aren't that demanding. All of the pans
> I bought are 2.5" high. They replace ones I owned earlier, and my
> experience with them was quite positive.
>
>> It's true that you'll lose some glass pans to
>> breakage but they are cheap - Keep hot glass
>> away from cold liquids.
>
> They don't break that often, and many of the losses are preventable.
> The ones that aren't are quite inconvenient.
>
> You noticed that I wrote: "Buying steam table pans is more interesting
> than it used to be, now that Chinese ones are available." Partly
> because of these products, Vollrath is trying to induce people to buy
> fancier designs, while it seems to be discontinuing its older ones.
> Their web site doesn't list the plain pans I just bought. It looks
> like one of those now-or-never shopping situations, because the eBay
> lots aren't that appealing and sometimes the winning bids are rather
> high. (I think they are also quietly discontinuing their Intrigue
> cookware line, which is a shame.)
>
> Glass pans are a great value, but my stainless ones don't cost that
> much more, and they're virtually indestructible. For not much more,
> you can buy a 13"x9" porcelain baker that's probably quite nice. So
> there are good choices, and maybe there will be more before long, but
> the pans I bought this week might not be among them.
>
>
> Felix
>




   
Date: 30 Mar 2007 12:48:20
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:wt6dnfZALc9aoZDbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com...
> You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and it
> does have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that I have
> used for many years and it is good as new. It has very low sides and
> so doesn't interfere with browning.
>
> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless stuff
> come out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better stuff pretty
> much off the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if you can produce
> something that is 80% as good for 20% of the price, most people will
> overlook the 20% loss in functionality. I've bought stainless mixing
> bowls made in India for as little as $1. Vollrath couldn't sell you a
> US made aluminum foil pan for that price. Yes they are light gauge
> but how heavy does something have to be to hold liquid? For the
> intended use of a steam table pan (sitting over water) there is no
> big advantage to thickness.
>
> It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking right
> when they are full of food that you are about to bring to the table
> for a holiday meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5 liter Corningware
> (which is actually a form of glass) casserole full of sweet potatoes
> last Thanksgiving, pushed it right off the end of the counter. To add
> insult to injury, they don't make "real" Corningware anymore. Corning
> sold the name and the new owners make stoneware in China (not stovetop
> safe) and call it "Corningware". The closest thing that is left in
> production is Corning's "Vision" line (which despite being clear is
> actually a close cousin to the old Corningware) but it is very
> pricey - a 5L Visions dutch oven is $90. Again the 80/20 rule - most
> people don't use Corningware on top of the stove so they'll go for the
> $20 stoneware version instead. I did.
>
> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses -
> souffles, bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for
> lasagna. For certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually an
> advantage. Enameled cast iron is also great but it can chip and the
> larger pieces weigh a ton even empty.
>
> In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's
> applications so your best bet is always to have an assortment and use
> the one that matches the task at hand the best. If the ones you
> bought this week are too thin to really bake in directly you could
> use them in a water bath (bain ie) to make baked puddings, etc. -
> they will be great for that.


Maybe look on eBay Jack if you really want to replace it.
Craig.



    
Date: 30 Mar 2007 13:36:21
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware. Unfortunately
it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare to begin
with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping. I'll keep
watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am patient.

The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well enough for
what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell the truth
is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that had
sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue flower trim -
really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.

The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until the
glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic - this was
(like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone left some
Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it came out
cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal shock
than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a flame
even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it down hot on
a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks to it so
on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook eggs in
Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up the
stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does pretty much
the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware name
figured out too.

Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
"Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed pottery
product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the hi-tech
material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as simple as
a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material used in
outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once great
brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish.

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:574talF2bvee5U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:wt6dnfZALc9aoZDbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and it does
>> have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that I have used
>> for many years and it is good as new. It has very low sides and so
>> doesn't interfere with browning.
>>
>> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless stuff
>> come out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better stuff pretty
>> much off the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if you can produce
>> something that is 80% as good for 20% of the price, most people will
>> overlook the 20% loss in functionality. I've bought stainless mixing
>> bowls made in India for as little as $1. Vollrath couldn't sell you a US
>> made aluminum foil pan for that price. Yes they are light gauge but how
>> heavy does something have to be to hold liquid? For the intended use of
>> a steam table pan (sitting over water) there is no big advantage to
>> thickness.
>>
>> It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking right when
>> they are full of food that you are about to bring to the table for a
>> holiday meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5 liter Corningware (which is
>> actually a form of glass) casserole full of sweet potatoes last
>> Thanksgiving, pushed it right off the end of the counter. To add insult
>> to injury, they don't make "real" Corningware anymore. Corning sold the
>> name and the new owners make stoneware in China (not stovetop safe) and
>> call it "Corningware". The closest thing that is left in production is
>> Corning's "Vision" line (which despite being clear is actually a close
>> cousin to the old Corningware) but it is very pricey - a 5L Visions dutch
>> oven is $90. Again the 80/20 rule - most people don't use Corningware on
>> top of the stove so they'll go for the $20 stoneware version instead. I
>> did.
>>
>> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses - souffles,
>> bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for lasagna. For
>> certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually an advantage.
>> Enameled cast iron is also great but it can chip and the larger pieces
>> weigh a ton even empty.
>>
>> In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's applications
>> so your best bet is always to have an assortment and use the one that
>> matches the task at hand the best. If the ones you bought this week are
>> too thin to really bake in directly you could use them in a water bath
>> (bain ie) to make baked puddings, etc. - they will be great for that.
>
>
> Maybe look on eBay Jack if you really want to replace it.
> Craig.




     
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:20:45
From: J. Clarke
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Jack Denver wrote:
> Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware.
> Unfortunately it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L
> size was rare to begin with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or
> $50 plus shipping. I'll keep watching yard sales and one will show
> up for $5 eventually if I am patient.
>
> The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well
> enough for what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and
> to tell the truth is better looking to the contemporary eye than real
> Corningware that had sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus
> some awful blue flower trim - really good kitsch if you like kitsch
> but I don't.
>
> The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until
> the glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic
> - this was (like many great inventions) discovered by accident when
> someone left some Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too
> high a temp and it came out cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is
> more resistant to thermal shock than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so
> you could put it directly on a flame even empty (which you are not
> supposed to do with glass), set it down hot on a wet towel, use it
> for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However, glass/pyroceram has
> really lousy heat distribution and food sticks to it so on the rare
> occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook eggs in
> Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up
> the stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does
> pretty much the same thing, which is what the current owners of the
> Corningware name figured out too.
>
> Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
> stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
> "Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed
> pottery product from China that has no relation (other than the name)
> to the hi-tech material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for
> something as simple as a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions
> ("cook in the material used in outer space!") brought back to earth,
> the prostitution of our once great brands, the loss of jobs overseas,
> all in one dish.

Some bastard managed to steal our future when we weren't looking. Not
just brands, not just loss of jobs, but loss of the willingness to
dream. My parent's generation touched the Moon and were on the way to
the stars. Now we seem to be on our way to the dungheap. What do kids
want to be these days?

> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:574talF2bvee5U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
>> news:wt6dnfZALc9aoZDbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and it
>>> does have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that I
>>> have used for many years and it is good as new. It has very low
>>> sides and so doesn't interfere with browning.
>>>
>>> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless
>>> stuff come out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better
>>> stuff pretty much off the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if
>>> you can produce something that is 80% as good for 20% of the price,
>>> most people will overlook the 20% loss in functionality. I've
>>> bought stainless mixing bowls made in India for as little as $1.
>>> Vollrath couldn't sell you a US made aluminum foil pan for that
>>> price. Yes they are light gauge but how heavy does something have
>>> to be to hold liquid? For the intended use of a steam table pan
>>> (sitting over water) there is no big advantage to thickness.
>>>
>>> It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking right
>>> when they are full of food that you are about to bring to the table
>>> for a holiday meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5 liter
>>> Corningware (which is actually a form of glass) casserole full of
>>> sweet potatoes last Thanksgiving, pushed it right off the end of
>>> the counter. To add insult to injury, they don't make "real"
>>> Corningware anymore. Corning sold the name and the new owners make
>>> stoneware in China (not stovetop safe) and call it "Corningware".
>>> The closest thing that is left in production is Corning's "Vision"
>>> line (which despite being clear is actually a close cousin to the
>>> old Corningware) but it is very pricey - a 5L Visions dutch oven is
>>> $90. Again the 80/20 rule - most people don't use Corningware on
>>> top of the stove so they'll go for the $20 stoneware version
>>> instead. I did.
>>>
>>> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses -
>>> souffles, bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for
>>> lasagna. For certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually
>>> an advantage. Enameled cast iron is also great but it can chip and
>>> the larger pieces weigh a ton even empty.
>>>
>>> In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's
>>> applications so your best bet is always to have an assortment and
>>> use the one that matches the task at hand the best. If the ones
>>> you bought this week are too thin to really bake in directly you
>>> could use them in a water bath (bain ie) to make baked puddings,
>>> etc. - they will be great for that.
>>
>>
>> Maybe look on eBay Jack if you really want to replace it.
>> Craig.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)




      
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:57:00
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"J. Clarke" <jclarke.usenet@cox.net > wrote in message
news:eujkvi0bc4@news2.newsguy.com...
> Some bastard managed to steal our future when we weren't looking. Not
> just brands, not just loss of jobs, but loss of the willingness to
> dream. My parent's generation touched the Moon and were on the way to
> the stars. Now we seem to be on our way to the dungheap. What do kids
> want to be these days?
>

Not astronauts, that's for sure. Astronauts are the punchline of jokes
involving adult diapers. But while we had dreams back in the day, we were
also naive - the old time astronauts cheated on their spouses too, we just
didn't get to hear about it at the time. It's like the innocence of
childhood that's gone forever. JFK died, LBJ lied - there's no bringing back
that time. What's scary is that there are still people out there with
dreams - a global caliphate, 72 virgins, the return of the Hidden Imam, but
we don't fit very well in those dreams. We're much too cynical to have
dreams of our own bigger than a McMansion with a 3 car garage and the condo
in Vail, but we don't know how to deal with the reality that there are guys
out there who are still dreaming big.





     
Date: 30 Mar 2007 13:48:08
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:DsydnWI8pb4L15DbnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware.
> Unfortunately
> it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare to
> begin
> with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping. I'll
> keep
> watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am
> patient.
>
> The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well
> enough for
> what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell the
> truth
> is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that
> had
> sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue flower
> trim -
> really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.
>
> The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until
> the
> glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic -
> this was
> (like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone left
> some
> Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it
> came out
> cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal
> shock
> than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a
> flame
> even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it down
> hot on
> a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
> glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks to
> it so
> on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook
> eggs in
> Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up
> the
> stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does pretty
> much
> the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware
> name
> figured out too.
>
> Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
> stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
> "Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed
> pottery
> product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the
> hi-tech
> material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as
> simple as
> a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material
> used in
> outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once
> great
> brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish.
>
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:574talF2bvee5U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
>> news:wt6dnfZALc9aoZDbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and it
>>> does have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that I
>>> have used for many years and it is good as new. It has very low
>>> sides and so doesn't interfere with browning.
>>>
>>> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless
>>> stuff come out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better
>>> stuff pretty much off the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if you
>>> can produce something that is 80% as good for 20% of the price, most
>>> people will overlook the 20% loss in functionality. I've bought
>>> stainless mixing bowls made in India for as little as $1. Vollrath
>>> couldn't sell you a US made aluminum foil pan for that price. Yes
>>> they are light gauge but how heavy does something have to be to hold
>>> liquid? For the intended use of a steam table pan (sitting over
>>> water) there is no big advantage to thickness.
>>>
>>> It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking right
>>> when they are full of food that you are about to bring to the table
>>> for a holiday meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5 liter
>>> Corningware (which is actually a form of glass) casserole full of
>>> sweet potatoes last Thanksgiving, pushed it right off the end of the
>>> counter. To add insult to injury, they don't make "real" Corningware
>>> anymore. Corning sold the name and the new owners make stoneware in
>>> China (not stovetop safe) and call it "Corningware". The closest
>>> thing that is left in production is Corning's "Vision" line (which
>>> despite being clear is actually a close cousin to the old
>>> Corningware) but it is very pricey - a 5L Visions dutch oven is $90.
>>> Again the 80/20 rule - most people don't use Corningware on top of
>>> the stove so they'll go for the $20 stoneware version instead. I
>>> did.
>>>
>>> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses -
>>> souffles, bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for
>>> lasagna. For certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually
>>> an advantage. Enameled cast iron is also great but it can chip and
>>> the larger pieces weigh a ton even empty.
>>>
>>> In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's
>>> applications so your best bet is always to have an assortment and
>>> use the one that matches the task at hand the best. If the ones you
>>> bought this week are too thin to really bake in directly you could
>>> use them in a water bath (bain ie) to make baked puddings, etc. -
>>> they will be great for that.
>>
>>
>> Maybe look on eBay Jack if you really want to replace it.
>> Craig.
>
>


This was just emailed to me @ 1:32pm From: "Israel Lipschitz".
Quote: "Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware.
Unfortunately
it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare to
begin
with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping. I'll
keep
watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am
patient.

The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well enough
for
what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell the
truth
is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that had
sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue flower
trim -
really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.

The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until the
glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic - this
was
(like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone left
some
Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it came
out
cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal
shock
than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a flame
even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it down
hot on
a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks to
it so
on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook eggs
in
Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up
the
stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does pretty
much
the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware name
figured out too.

Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
"Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed pottery
product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the
hi-tech
material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as simple
as
a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material used
in
outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once great
brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish."

Craig.



      
Date: 30 Mar 2007 13:52:25
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:5750qqF2b5f1oU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:DsydnWI8pb4L15DbnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware.
>> Unfortunately
>> it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare
>> to begin
>> with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping.
>> I'll keep
>> watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am
>> patient.
>>
>> The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well
>> enough for
>> what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell the
>> truth
>> is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that
>> had
>> sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue flower
>> trim -
>> really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.
>>
>> The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until
>> the
>> glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic -
>> this was
>> (like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone left
>> some
>> Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it
>> came out
>> cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal
>> shock
>> than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a
>> flame
>> even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it down
>> hot on
>> a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
>> glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks
>> to it so
>> on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook
>> eggs in
>> Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up
>> the
>> stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does
>> pretty much
>> the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware
>> name
>> figured out too.
>>
>> Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
>> stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
>> "Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed
>> pottery
>> product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the
>> hi-tech
>> material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as
>> simple as
>> a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material
>> used in
>> outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once
>> great
>> brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish.
>>
>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>> news:574talF2bvee5U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>> news:wt6dnfZALc9aoZDbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>> You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and it
>>>> does have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that I
>>>> have used for many years and it is good as new. It has very low
>>>> sides and so doesn't interfere with browning.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless
>>>> stuff come out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better
>>>> stuff pretty much off the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if
>>>> you can produce something that is 80% as good for 20% of the price,
>>>> most people will overlook the 20% loss in functionality. I've
>>>> bought stainless mixing bowls made in India for as little as $1.
>>>> Vollrath couldn't sell you a US made aluminum foil pan for that
>>>> price. Yes they are light gauge but how heavy does something have
>>>> to be to hold liquid? For the intended use of a steam table pan
>>>> (sitting over water) there is no big advantage to thickness.
>>>>
>>>> It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking right
>>>> when they are full of food that you are about to bring to the table
>>>> for a holiday meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5 liter
>>>> Corningware (which is actually a form of glass) casserole full of
>>>> sweet potatoes last Thanksgiving, pushed it right off the end of
>>>> the counter. To add insult to injury, they don't make "real"
>>>> Corningware anymore. Corning sold the name and the new owners make
>>>> stoneware in China (not stovetop safe) and call it "Corningware".
>>>> The closest thing that is left in production is Corning's "Vision"
>>>> line (which despite being clear is actually a close cousin to the
>>>> old Corningware) but it is very pricey - a 5L Visions dutch oven is
>>>> $90. Again the 80/20 rule - most people don't use Corningware on
>>>> top of the stove so they'll go for the $20 stoneware version
>>>> instead. I did.
>>>>
>>>> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses -
>>>> souffles, bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for
>>>> lasagna. For certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually
>>>> an advantage. Enameled cast iron is also great but it can chip and
>>>> the larger pieces weigh a ton even empty.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's
>>>> applications so your best bet is always to have an assortment and
>>>> use the one that matches the task at hand the best. If the ones
>>>> you bought this week are too thin to really bake in directly you
>>>> could use them in a water bath (bain ie) to make baked puddings,
>>>> etc. - they will be great for that.
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe look on eBay Jack if you really want to replace it.
>>> Craig.
>>
>>
>
>
> This was just emailed to me @ 1:32pm From: "Israel Lipschitz".
> Quote: "Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware.
> Unfortunately
> it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare to
> begin
> with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping. I'll
> keep
> watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am
> patient.
>
> The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well
> enough for
> what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell the
> truth
> is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that
> had
> sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue flower
> trim -
> really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.
>
> The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until
> the
> glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic -
> this was
> (like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone left
> some
> Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it
> came out
> cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal
> shock
> than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a
> flame
> even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it down
> hot on
> a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
> glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks to
> it so
> on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook
> eggs in
> Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up
> the
> stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does pretty
> much
> the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware
> name
> figured out too.
>
> Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
> stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
> "Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed
> pottery
> product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the
> hi-tech
> material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as
> simple as
> a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material
> used in
> outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once
> great
> brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish."
>
> Craig.

Ahh, I see Jack., on checking the properties of your alt.coffee post &
the email to me from alt.., I see the same IP address..
Craig.



       
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:26:48
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
I meant to hit 'Reply to group" but hit "reply to sender". I've never made
it a secret from my fellow alt.coffeeites that "Jack Denver" is a nom du
plume (nom du clavier?) . There's a story to it but I'm sick of telling it.

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:57512rF2boo7vU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>>>
>> Craig.
>
> Ahh, I see Jack., on checking the properties of your alt.coffee post & the
> email to me from alt.., I see the same IP address..
> Craig.
>




        
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:47:22
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:qbGdnelPL9L1y5DbnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>I meant to hit 'Reply to group" but hit "reply to sender". I've never
>made it a secret from my fellow alt.coffeeites that "Jack Denver" is a
>nom du plume (nom du clavier?) . There's a story to it but I'm sick of
>telling it.
>

Ok, fine. I aways though that was your real name.., but I have read here
that you said it wasn't. "You're sick of telling it", I've been here
almost 6 1/2 years & don't recall the story. I've never seen or felt the
need for an alias/s
Craig.



       
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:25:59
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:57512rF2boo7vU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:5750qqF2b5f1oU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
>> news:DsydnWI8pb4L15DbnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>> Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real" Corningware.
>>> Unfortunately
>>> it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare
>>> to begin
>>> with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping.
>>> I'll keep
>>> watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am
>>> patient.
>>>
>>> The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well
>>> enough for
>>> what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell
>>> the truth
>>> is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that
>>> had
>>> sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue
>>> flower trim -
>>> really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.
>>>
>>> The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until
>>> the
>>> glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic -
>>> this was
>>> (like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone
>>> left some
>>> Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it
>>> came out
>>> cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal
>>> shock
>>> than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a
>>> flame
>>> even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it
>>> down hot on
>>> a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
>>> glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks
>>> to it so
>>> on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook
>>> eggs in
>>> Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give
>>> up the
>>> stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does
>>> pretty much
>>> the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware
>>> name
>>> figured out too.
>>>
>>> Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
>>> stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
>>> "Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed
>>> pottery
>>> product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the
>>> hi-tech
>>> material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as
>>> simple as
>>> a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material
>>> used in
>>> outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once
>>> great
>>> brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish.
>>>
>>> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
>>> news:574talF2bvee5U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:wt6dnfZALc9aoZDbnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>> You're right about stainless being virtually indestructible and
>>>>> it does have it's uses - I have a stainless meat roasting pan that
>>>>> I have used for many years and it is good as new. It has very low
>>>>> sides and so doesn't interfere with browning.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect the Chinese (and Indian - I've seen a lot of stainless
>>>>> stuff come out of India) stuff will eventually drive the better
>>>>> stuff pretty much off the ket - it's the old 80/20 rules - if
>>>>> you can produce something that is 80% as good for 20% of the
>>>>> price, most people will overlook the 20% loss in functionality.
>>>>> I've bought stainless mixing bowls made in India for as little as
>>>>> $1. Vollrath couldn't sell you a US made aluminum foil pan for
>>>>> that price. Yes they are light gauge but how heavy does something
>>>>> have to be to hold liquid? For the intended use of a steam table
>>>>> pan (sitting over water) there is no big advantage to thickness.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's true that glass has a nasty Murphy's law way of breaking
>>>>> right when they are full of food that you are about to bring to
>>>>> the table for a holiday meal. My mother-in-law took out my 5
>>>>> liter Corningware (which is actually a form of glass) casserole
>>>>> full of sweet potatoes last Thanksgiving, pushed it right off the
>>>>> end of the counter. To add insult to injury, they don't make
>>>>> "real" Corningware anymore. Corning sold the name and the new
>>>>> owners make stoneware in China (not stovetop safe) and call it
>>>>> "Corningware". The closest thing that is left in production is
>>>>> Corning's "Vision" line (which despite being clear is actually a
>>>>> close cousin to the old Corningware) but it is very pricey - a 5L
>>>>> Visions dutch oven is $90. Again the 80/20 rule - most people
>>>>> don't use Corningware on top of the stove so they'll go for the
>>>>> $20 stoneware version instead. I did.
>>>>>
>>>>> Porcelain is not that good for browning but it has it's uses -
>>>>> souffles, bread puddings. I have a stoneware 9x13 that I like for
>>>>> lasagna. For certain dishes the slow response to heat is actually
>>>>> an advantage. Enameled cast iron is also great but it can chip and
>>>>> the larger pieces weigh a ton even empty.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the end, there is no ideal cookware - each item has it's
>>>>> applications so your best bet is always to have an assortment and
>>>>> use the one that matches the task at hand the best. If the ones
>>>>> you bought this week are too thin to really bake in directly you
>>>>> could use them in a water bath (bain ie) to make baked
>>>>> puddings, etc. - they will be great for that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe look on eBay Jack if you really want to replace it.
>>>> Craig.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> This was just emailed to me @ 1:32pm From: "Israel Lipschitz".
>> Quote: "Yes, there is an active 2nd hand ket in "real"
>> Corningware. Unfortunately
>> it's becoming something of a collectible, plus the 5L size was rare
>> to begin
>> with and so it's fairly pricey - maybe $40 or $50 plus shipping.
>> I'll keep
>> watching yard sales and one will show up for $5 eventually if I am
>> patient.
>>
>> The "French White" stoneware that I got to replace it works well
>> enough for
>> what I use it for (in the microwave and in the oven ) and to tell the
>> truth
>> is better looking to the contemporary eye than real Corningware that
>> had
>> sort of a tacky '60s modern square shape plus some awful blue flower
>> trim -
>> really good kitsch if you like kitsch but I don't.
>>
>> The "hi-tech" aspect of Corning Ware was that they baked Pyrex until
>> the
>> glass (an amorphous substance) crystallized and became a ceramic -
>> this was
>> (like many great inventions) discovered by accident when someone left
>> some
>> Pyrex in the annealing oven too long and at too high a temp and it
>> came out
>> cloudy. This form (called pyroceramic) is more resistant to thermal
>> shock
>> than Pyrex (borosilicate glass) so you could put it directly on a
>> flame
>> even empty (which you are not supposed to do with glass), set it down
>> hot on
>> a wet towel, use it for the nose cone of a rocket, etc.. However,
>> glass/pyroceram has really lousy heat distribution and food sticks
>> to it so
>> on the rare occasions when I attempted to say brown onions or cook
>> eggs in
>> Corningware on the stovetop it was a disaster. And once you give up
>> the
>> stovetop application (which I never used anyway) stoneware does
>> pretty much
>> the same thing, which is what the current owners of the Corningware
>> name
>> figured out too.
>>
>> Of course, aside from some lawyer dictated "do not use on stovetop"
>> stickers, the new owners don't go out of their way to tell you that
>> "Corningware" is now an entirely different, conventional glazed
>> pottery
>> product from China that has no relation (other than the name) to the
>> hi-tech
>> material of old. The whole spectacle says a lot for something as
>> simple as
>> a pot - our once upon a time high ambitions ("cook in the material
>> used in
>> outer space!") brought back to earth, the prostitution of our once
>> great
>> brands, the loss of jobs overseas, all in one dish."
>>
>> Craig.
>
> Ahh, I see Jack., on checking the properties of your alt.coffee post &
> the email to me from alt.., I see the same IP address..
> Craig.

Why the alias buy the way??
Craig.



        
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:43:03
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Even though I'm sick of telling it, since you ask I'll tell it again. Way
back in my earliest days on usenet, I participated in a thread under my
real name in some other group (an automotive group). Some idiot wrote back
something to the effect than "You have grossly insulted my wife and I'm
coming to your house to beat you up.", except that he spelled a few words
wrong and "grossly" is too big a word for him to actually have used it and
there was some profanity mixed in. In retrospect he was probably just
showing off for his wife and was probably too drunk to drive anywhere at the
time and his car was actually up on blocks behind the trailer 'cause the
tranny was busted and he didn't have enough money to a bus ticket to here
from W. Virginia anyway. But at the time, I decided that discretion was the
better part of valor and posting on the internet under your real name where
every nut case on earth was free to mis-interpret your reks might really
not be a good idea. So I adopted "Jack Denver", which was the first (and not
very good) made up name that came to my fingertips. And Jack Denver it has
been ever since and no one with a Louisville Slugger has ever showed up
looking for me, so it must be working.



"Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com > wrote in message
news:57531oF2bjp4eU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> Why the alias buy the way??
> Craig.




         
Date: 30 Mar 2007 14:50:06
From: Craig Andrews
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote in message
news:G5ydnfnRcJuqx5DbnZ2dnUVZ_s6onZ2d@comcast.com...
> Even though I'm sick of telling it, since you ask I'll tell it again.
> Way back in my earliest days on usenet, I participated in a thread
> under my real name in some other group (an automotive group). Some
> idiot wrote back something to the effect than "You have grossly
> insulted my wife and I'm coming to your house to beat you up.", except
> that he spelled a few words wrong and "grossly" is too big a word for
> him to actually have used it and there was some profanity mixed in. In
> retrospect he was probably just showing off for his wife and was
> probably too drunk to drive anywhere at the time and his car was
> actually up on blocks behind the trailer 'cause the tranny was busted
> and he didn't have enough money to a bus ticket to here from W.
> Virginia anyway. But at the time, I decided that discretion was the
> better part of valor and posting on the internet under your real name
> where every nut case on earth was free to mis-interpret your reks
> might really not be a good idea. So I adopted "Jack Denver", which was
> the first (and not very good) made up name that came to my fingertips.
> And Jack Denver it has been ever since and no one with a Louisville
> Slugger has ever showed up looking for me, so it must be working.
>
>
>
> "Craig Andrews" <alt.coffee@deletethis.rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:57531oF2bjp4eU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> Why the alias buy the way??
>> Craig.
>
>

Jesus, sorry Jack., I really NEVER knew.., {:-O I appreciate you telling
me & your candor.
Sincerely,
Craig.



 
Date: 28 Mar 2007 20:00:43
From: Felix
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Jack Denver writes:
> A 1/6 size stainless steam table pan is $5 at
> any restaurant supply house.

Coincidentally, I just ordered some steam table pans. The sizes are
similar to glass baking dishes, and steel doesn't shatter. I'd spend
more than $5 for a 1/6 pan though, because the cheap ones aren't 22
gauge.

Buying steam table pans is more interesting than it used to be, now
that Chinese ones are available. These often have the full shoulder
design, which I dislike in a baking pan, but it makes the pan very
close to being a knock box. In fact, some of the older designs look
like they're modified steam table pans (1/6 or 1/4 size).

> the magic of "value added".

Convenience is worth something, as is the time it would take to buy
the remaining parts and assemble them. My complaint would be about the
quality of the result. The relatively affordable knock boxes are often
quite loud. Maybe the next gourmet kitchen accessory will be rubber
molding for the undermount sink's perimeter. Maybe I'll have one
made ...


Felix



  
Date: 29 Mar 2007 08:05:22
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Stainless steel is a lousy material for baking - glass works well as does
dark colored metal - the idea is to let IR thru or at least absorb it. Shiny
materials reflect the heat and result in palid baked goods. It's true that
you'll lose some glass pans to breakage but they are cheap - Keep hot glass
away from cold liquids.

Yes, I was thinking of the knock boxes that start out as steam table pans.
As I said they start out as $5 pans, someone adds a piece of dowel covered
in garden hose and now it is a $15 knock box. I guess for some people it's
worth it to pay $10 for that - stainless IS a pain to drill and not everyone
has a drill, a saw, etc. I think you can muffle them a bit if you glue some
kind of rubber padding to the bottom - a cut up mouse pad.

Better stainless sinks are (or should be) coated on the outside with what
looks like car undercoating - some kind of tarry/rubbery stuff, which
muffles them quite a bit.


"Felix" <felixyen@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1175137243.862751.116080@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Jack Denver writes:
>> A 1/6 size stainless steam table pan is $5 at
>> any restaurant supply house.
>
> Coincidentally, I just ordered some steam table pans. The sizes are
> similar to glass baking dishes, and steel doesn't shatter. I'd spend
> more than $5 for a 1/6 pan though, because the cheap ones aren't 22
> gauge.
>
> Buying steam table pans is more interesting than it used to be, now
> that Chinese ones are available. These often have the full shoulder
> design, which I dislike in a baking pan, but it makes the pan very
> close to being a knock box. In fact, some of the older designs look
> like they're modified steam table pans (1/6 or 1/4 size).
>
>> the magic of "value added".
>
> Convenience is worth something, as is the time it would take to buy
> the remaining parts and assemble them. My complaint would be about the
> quality of the result. The relatively affordable knock boxes are often
> quite loud. Maybe the next gourmet kitchen accessory will be rubber
> molding for the undermount sink's perimeter. Maybe I'll have one
> made ...
>
>
> Felix
>




 
Date: 28 Mar 2007 10:39:40
From: DavidMLewis
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On 27, 7:23 pm, "Jack Denver" <nunuv...@netscape.net > wrote:
> Actually coffee grounds are not good plant food by themselves - I just
> heard this on a garden radio show so I can't verify but the guy sounded like
> he had some data. I forget the details but the conclusion was that they are
> not at all good to use full strength. But you can mix them in as a small
> percentage of a compost pile.
>
Composting redworms love them, and plants love the result. They're
fine directly on acid-loving plants like blueberries.

Best,
David



 
Date: 27 Mar 2007 19:26:54
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On 26, 9:07 pm, kyem...@gmail.com wrote:
> Agree that the cost of a knockbox is exorbitant at $30. I personally
> feel that at home, a knockbox is not totally essential, unless you are
> producing lots of shots. For 1 or 2 shots a day, an old can would
> suffice.


Uhoh - I'm thinking what if the new espresso machine, in transit,
doesn't have the PF ABS clip of my existing EM, which is positioned
ergnometrically for either thumb to acess -- in swiveling up over the
rim of the PF to clip the basket stationary -- in order to properly
facilitate a "wet-grind fling" across substantial distances.



  
Date: 28 Mar 2007 06:28:27
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
"Flasherly" <gjerrell@ij.net > wrote:



 
Date: 27 Mar 2007 05:47:05
From: myron
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
I used to have a knock box made from a storage can that I BEAUTIFULLY
decorated with colorful labels of various Coffee blends from Second
Cup (Before i had my own roaster)....

But once i got my knockbox..just like the one in the video...there was
no turning back.. Was it the rubber (or silicon,etc ) fooot ring, the
solid and compact construction..?? Don't know..but even my warn
sentiments about my first knockbox wasn't enough to save it.

Of course i was lucky that the cost (Which included international
shipping) all went to Coffeegeeks campaing for Coffeekids...so who
counts?

myron



 
Date: 26 Mar 2007 23:33:38
From: Flasherly
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On 26, 2:47 pm, "John B" <j...@mail.gatech.edu > wrote:
> Who knew that a knockbox was so important?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rj8VYV4sTo


Something to do with old telephone books. Get a napkin holder, and
rip out a directory chunk, rip again along the binding a little more
to remove what glue's left, and into the holder they go. Grab a
couple for the bottom of the sink and fling that puck. Stuffs good
enough once around to gift wrap for the trash without dedicating
another stinkbox for general cleaning purposes.



 
Date: 27 Mar 2007 05:21:56
From: Hugh Browton
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Mon, 26 2007 18:47:37 +0100, John B wrote
(in article <1174933631.966827.121950@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com >):

> Who knew that a knockbox was so important?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rj8VYV4sTo
>

Great product, they ship worldwide.

--
regards
hugh
hugh at clarity point uk point co
(by the sea) (using Hogwasher)

You never can truly tell when you have run out of invisible ink.



 
Date: 26 Mar 2007 18:12:17
From: Jim Exline
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On 26, 2:47 pm, "John B" <j...@mail.gatech.edu > wrote:
> Who knew that a knockbox was so important?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rj8VYV4sTo


Damn- I've had a knock box for at least 2 years now, and nothing like
that (Only with the wife, of course!) has ever happened to me!
However- I came home the other night with a dog-gone Starbuck's
cinnamon dolce latte for the wife (Yea- she's addicted to 'em! In my
defense, however, I haven't had my espresso machine for about 9 months
now), and had a similar experience! I guess it's all in the eye of the
beholder, or something like that! An even better night was when I came
home from Ambiance with- well, never mind- that's another forum
altogether!

JImE



 
Date: 26 Mar 2007 18:07:09
From:
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Agree that the cost of a knockbox is exorbitant at $30. I personally
feel that at home, a knockbox is not totally essential, unless you are
producing lots of shots. For 1 or 2 shots a day, an old can would
suffice.



  
Date: 27 Mar 2007 12:34:03
From:
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
A one gallon can combined with a one inch dowel works like a champ.
All of which is available at any hardware store. If you want
something more unique try painting or staining to your preference.

Little work, low cost and maximum utility -- pure joy!

On 26 2007 18:07:09 -0700, kyemeng@gmail.com wrote:

>Agree that the cost of a knockbox is exorbitant at $30. I personally
>feel that at home, a knockbox is not totally essential, unless you are
>producing lots of shots. For 1 or 2 shots a day, an old can would
>suffice.


   
Date: 27 Mar 2007 13:10:18
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Tue, 27 2007 12:34:03 GMT, NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com
wrote:

>A one gallon can combined with a one inch dowel works like a champ.
>All of which is available at any hardware store. If you want
>something more unique try painting or staining to your preference.
>
>Little work, low cost and maximum utility -- pure joy!

You obviously haven't factored in the cost of riage counseling or
emergency room treatment after you attempt to put a gallon can with a
wooden dowel on your wife's new counter.

I recommend Paul Pratt's "Bumper" knockbox.

shall


    
Date: 28 Mar 2007 01:22:39
From:
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Actually I have a GREAT wife who is concerned with more important
issues than the placement of a can that normally is not on display.

Besides, the collected pucks make great feed for her plants.

On Tue, 27 2007 13:10:18 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>On Tue, 27 2007 12:34:03 GMT, NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com
>wrote:
>
>>A one gallon can combined with a one inch dowel works like a champ.
>>All of which is available at any hardware store. If you want
>>something more unique try painting or staining to your preference.
>>
>>Little work, low cost and maximum utility -- pure joy!
>
>You obviously haven't factored in the cost of riage counseling or
>emergency room treatment after you attempt to put a gallon can with a
>wooden dowel on your wife's new counter.
>
>I recommend Paul Pratt's "Bumper" knockbox.
>
>shall


     
Date: 28 Mar 2007 09:23:26
From: Dan
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Wed, 28 2007 01:22:39 GMT, NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com
wrote:

>Actually I have a GREAT wife who is concerned with more important
>issues than the placement of a can that normally is not on display.
>
>Besides, the collected pucks make great feed for her plants.

Ditto for my wife. One day she cut down a two-quart plastic milk
container and presented it to me, asking if I would use to store old
coffee grounds for her garden. (She uses only organic stuff.)

In turn, I cut down a one-inch thick piece of scrap wood to fit one
side of the container and quickly bolted it to the plastic. Voila!...
double duty: a sturdy knockbox and handy garden gadget.

After we tested it and it worked well for her, I volunteered to make
something better looking with exotic wood and more elegant fastening.
She turned it down. So this makeshift item sits in our kitchen as a
tribute to her practicality.

--
Regards,
Dan








     
Date: 27 Mar 2007 22:23:48
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Actually coffee grounds are not good plant food by themselves - I just
heard this on a garden radio show so I can't verify but the guy sounded like
he had some data. I forget the details but the conclusion was that they are
not at all good to use full strength. But you can mix them in as a small
percentage of a compost pile.


<NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com > wrote in message
news:15kj0354gd8808udj31r1v2srv5qfbiqgi@4ax.com...
> Actually I have a GREAT wife who is concerned with more important
> issues than the placement of a can that normally is not on display.
>
> Besides, the collected pucks make great feed for her plants.
>
> On Tue, 27 2007 13:10:18 GMT, shall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 2007 12:34:03 GMT, NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>A one gallon can combined with a one inch dowel works like a champ.
>>>All of which is available at any hardware store. If you want
>>>something more unique try painting or staining to your preference.
>>>
>>>Little work, low cost and maximum utility -- pure joy!
>>
>>You obviously haven't factored in the cost of riage counseling or
>>emergency room treatment after you attempt to put a gallon can with a
>>wooden dowel on your wife's new counter.
>>
>>I recommend Paul Pratt's "Bumper" knockbox.
>>
>>shall




      
Date: 27 Mar 2007 22:53:52
From: Alice Faber
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
In article <zcGdnRMD6McpTJTbnZ2dnUVZ_qGjnZ2d@comcast.com >,
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

> Actually coffee grounds are not good plant food by themselves - I just
> heard this on a garden radio show so I can't verify but the guy sounded like
> he had some data. I forget the details but the conclusion was that they are
> not at all good to use full strength. But you can mix them in as a small
> percentage of a compost pile.

When I first started composting, I had a pamphlet, which I can't find at
the moment, indicating the same thing. My compost has vegetable scraps,
coffee grounds, tea leaves, and, occasionally, the contents of my paper
shredder.

--
AF
"Non Sequitur U has a really, really lousy debate team."
--artyw raises the bar on rec.sport.baseball


    
Date: 27 Mar 2007 15:23:24
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Tue, 27 2007 13:10:18 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>On Tue, 27 2007 12:34:03 GMT, NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com
>wrote:
>
>>A one gallon can combined with a one inch dowel works like a champ.
>>All of which is available at any hardware store. If you want
>>something more unique try painting or staining to your preference.
>>
>>Little work, low cost and maximum utility -- pure joy!
>
>You obviously haven't factored in the cost of riage counseling or
>emergency room treatment after you attempt to put a gallon can with a
>wooden dowel on your wife's new counter.
>
>I recommend Paul Pratt's "Bumper" knockbox.
>
>shall

But, "seriously folks" and esthetics aside, good design is worth the
money. Paul makes a very intelligently designed knockbox. The
extra-thick rubber around the cross-rod and the rubber base make it
much quieter than other boxes, and the high rear wall catches all the
splatter. It's a little big, though, for some home counters.

shall


     
Date: 27 Mar 2007 18:25:40
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Alton Brown (the good eats TV guy mentioned in another thread) says to shun
single purpose kitchen gadgets whenever possible and to me a knock box
falls in that category (in a home kitchen). Personally I have a garbage
disposal and my pucks go into the sink.





"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:gcdi0357arsvcjv3jbl74t1c357a2af5is@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 2007 13:10:18 GMT, shall
> <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 27 2007 12:34:03 GMT, NoMailAddress@NoMailAddress.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>A one gallon can combined with a one inch dowel works like a champ.
>>>All of which is available at any hardware store. If you want
>>>something more unique try painting or staining to your preference.
>>>
>>>Little work, low cost and maximum utility -- pure joy!
>>
>>You obviously haven't factored in the cost of riage counseling or
>>emergency room treatment after you attempt to put a gallon can with a
>>wooden dowel on your wife's new counter.
>>
>>I recommend Paul Pratt's "Bumper" knockbox.
>>
>>shall
>
> But, "seriously folks" and esthetics aside, good design is worth the
> money. Paul makes a very intelligently designed knockbox. The
> extra-thick rubber around the cross-rod and the rubber base make it
> much quieter than other boxes, and the high rear wall catches all the
> splatter. It's a little big, though, for some home counters.
>
> shall




      
Date: 28 Mar 2007 00:10:57
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:



       
Date: 27 Mar 2007 22:25:51
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox

"D. Ross" <ross@math.hawaii.NOSPAM.edu > wrote in message
news:4609b258.80466564@localhost...
> "Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>


      
Date: 28 Mar 2007 00:11:56
From: Marshall
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Tue, 27 2007 18:25:40 -0400, "Jack Denver"
<nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>Alton Brown (the good eats TV guy mentioned in another thread) says to shun
>single purpose kitchen gadgets whenever possible and to me a knock box
>falls in that category (in a home kitchen). Personally I have a garbage
>disposal and my pucks go into the sink.

What forces them out of the basket and into your disposal? My disposal
rim is a hard metal surface. Hitting it with enough force for the puck
to fall out would dent the basket rim and maybe the disposal rim, too.
Of course, this is why knockboxes have rubber covered dowels .

shall


       
Date: 28 Mar 2007 11:41:58
From: JC Dill
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
On Wed, 28 2007 00:11:56 GMT, shall
<mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote:

>My disposal
>rim is a hard metal surface. Hitting it with enough force for the puck
>to fall out would dent the basket rim and maybe the disposal rim, too.

I've never had any problems from hitting on the disposal rim. The
biggest problem is that this can wake someone else who is sleeping in
on weekend mornings. I'd love a bottomless knockbox that fits in the
disposal hole - padded dowel to keep the noise down, grounds go down
the drain. Rinse the knockbox and put with my other espresso tools
until I make coffee again.

jc

--

"The nice thing about a e is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."
~ Eileen Morgan of The e's Nest, PA


        
Date: 29 Mar 2007 05:29:02
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox


       
Date: 27 Mar 2007 20:28:36
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Usually I hit the PF on whatever happens to be in or within reach of the
sink and is handy - the handle of a wooden or plastic spoon laid flat, the
lid of a plastic takeout, container, etc. (I also use such lids to catch
excess grinds when dosing). If I knock immediately after the shot is pulled
it comes right out with just a light tap. The puck doesn't go into the
disposal hole directly after it is knocked, except by luck. It ends up in
the bottom of the sink and it gets washed down the drain the next time the
water is run. It sounds messier than it really is - by the time the meal
is over and the dishwasher is loaded all evidence is gone.


"shall" <mrfuss@ihatespamearthlink.net > wrote in message
news:ffcj035prbiajl37a9bgo4ierkl83n6fe0@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 2007 18:25:40 -0400, "Jack Denver"
> <nunuvyer@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>>Alton Brown (the good eats TV guy mentioned in another thread) says to
>>shun
>>single purpose kitchen gadgets whenever possible and to me a knock box
>>falls in that category (in a home kitchen). Personally I have a garbage
>>disposal and my pucks go into the sink.
>
> What forces them out of the basket and into your disposal? My disposal
> rim is a hard metal surface. Hitting it with enough force for the puck
> to fall out would dent the basket rim and maybe the disposal rim, too.
> Of course, this is why knockboxes have rubber covered dowels .
>
> shall
>




  
Date: 26 Mar 2007 22:33:24
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
<kyemeng@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1174957629.647004.157830@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Agree that the cost of a knockbox is exorbitant at $30. I personally
> feel that at home, a knockbox is not totally essential, unless you are
> producing lots of shots. For 1 or 2 shots a day, an old can would
> suffice.
>

In a pinch you can use your dog's food dish, however depending on the dog's
disposition you might have a fight on your hands. And be sure to rinse off
the portafilter with lots of hot water, afterwards, especially if you are
expecting ME to come over for a coffee anytime in the future.




 
Date: 26 Mar 2007 16:44:49
From: Jack Denver
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
Very funny. I don't understand what makes knock boxes remotely worth the
price they are charging ( $29 for this one) - it must be that they attract
the opposite sex, just as the clip shows, cause there's no way a plastic cup
is worth $30 otherwise.

A 1/6 size stainless steam table pan is $5 at any restaurant supply house.
If you add a length of wooden dowel and garden hose worth 10 cents, suddenly
that same pan is now a "knock box" and sells for $15... the magic of "value
added".



"John B" <jb130@mail.gatech.edu > wrote in message
news:1174933631.966827.121950@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Who knew that a knockbox was so important?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rj8VYV4sTo
>




  
Date: 26 Mar 2007 21:43:32
From: Randy G.
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
"Jack Denver" <nunuvyer@netscape.net > wrote:

>Very funny. I don't understand what makes knock boxes remotely worth the
>price they are charging ( $29 for this one) - it must be that they attract
>the opposite sex, just as the clip shows, cause there's no way a plastic cup
>is worth $30 otherwise.
>

First thing in the AM... you pull a double, go over to the trash can
and in the morning's mental haze knock out the puck and the basket
goes with it. You fish it out and notice you also retrieved a partial
handful of last night's cleanings from the cat box. Suddenly a knock
box is worth twice the asking price! ;-)


Randy "cat box race track five miles long... doo doo.. doo doo" G.
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com




  
Date: 27 Mar 2007 01:11:30
From: D. Ross
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox


 
Date: 26 Mar 2007 14:35:06
From: Ken Fox
Subject: Re: why you need a knockbox
"John B" <jb130@mail.gatech.edu > wrote in message
news:1174933631.966827.121950@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Who knew that a knockbox was so important?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rj8VYV4sTo
>

My bumper box gets me even better babes